Can we fix Detect Pots?

Talcyndl

I'm of the opinion that the initial design decision to avoid all cooldowns in favor of soft caps and resource pool limitations was generally a good one. But, the one huge downside (once the numerous broken NB skills were fixed) is that NBs have an in-combat stealth skill that can be cast at will. This skill (employed by even a semi-competent player) is an almost insurmountable advantage in small group and 1v1 situations. The most common (and reasonable) reaction in this case is to simply walk/run away.

There have been various counters to cloak over the years. But the most universal, detect pots, are now basically worthless.

(1) The range of detect pots seems to require you to be almost directly on top of the NB.

(2) Even once detected, the NB disappears again almost immediately.

(3) The uptime on the detect portion of the pots is incredibly short. And of course, using one puts you at a huge disadvantage because of the potion timer.

Can we get some buffs to detect pots please?

Taylor_MB

Nah it's good.

Allows you to get a huge detect range (when paired with magelight) but only for a limited time, thus not completely negating NB's only reason for existing.

Talcyndl

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Nah it's good.

Allows you to get a huge detect range (when paired with magelight) but only for a limited time, thus not completely negating NB's only reason for existing.

I'm not seeing the "huge detect range". Not even close.

And why should we have to "pair" one detect method with another to be effective?

There was a period when detect pots were actually an effective and balanced counter. They brought NBs out of stealth so you could fight them for a short period, but at the cost of your potion cooldown and whatever buffs you could get from your preferred potion.

I think the biggest problem though with the way they work now is how they no longer pull the NB out for a longer period. I constantly will get a couple seconds of detection and then the NB will disappear again. That was not how they worked previously.

I could live with the smaller radius and shorter time period overall, if once detected, the NB wouldn't almost immediately disappear.

Fasold666

Yes, you need to be somewhat close to the NB you are fighting. But a NB cant go invisible again within the next 15 seconds or so once you activate the detect potion (if you have the "Medicinal Use" passive from the alchemy skil line). And that is quite a long time.
It might be shadow image you are struggling with instead?

Rianai

Detect pots don't prevent a nb from cloaking. It just allows you to see stealthed/cloaked players within a certain range. And that range gets reduced by passives that reduce detection range (medium armor, racial passives, certain sets, ...). So especially against many stamblades detect potions and other cloak counters like magelight don't work that well. I think, those passives should not affect stealth counters. (To avoid nerfing medium armor the stealth passive should be replaced by something more usefull for non nb/gankers).

Fasold666

Yea, was a bit misunderstandable. I meant "cant go invisible for you". Personally, detect potions are my second most used potion and I have never had an issues with the radius (without magelight). Even if the NB gets out of the radius and - if he isnt good at utilizing shadow image - I can mostly predict where he will be and come close again.

As a magsorc main I obviously have the strongest toolkit to control a NB in a fight and keep him out of stealth for most of the time (perma curse, soulstrike and streak or boundless if I choose it) and I see that for example a stam or mag DK will have it more difficult.
So it is up the toolkits a class has (skills that pull a NB out of cloak - and there is a lot of them - or atleast that allow you to keep up with the speed/movement and therefore stay close to the NB and in its area where the detect potion works).

And in combination with that, detection potions are just fine imo.

Subversus

Fasold666 wrote: »

Yea, was a bit misunderstandable. I meant "cant go invisible for you". Personally, detect potions are my second most used potion and I have never had an issues with the radius (without magelight). Even if the NB gets out of the radius and - if he isnt good at utilizing shadow image - I can mostly predict where he will be and come close again.

As a magsorc main I obviously have the strongest toolkit to control a NB in a fight and keep him out of stealth for most of the time (perma curse, soulstrike and streak or boundless if I choose it) and I see that for example a stam or mag DK will have it more difficult.
So it is up the toolkits a class has (skills that pull a NB out of cloak - and there is a lot of them - or atleast that allow you to keep up with the speed/movement and therefore stay close to the NB and in its area where the detect potion works).

And in combination with that, detection potions are just fine imo.

Soul strike alone can pretty much delete medium stamblades, which is really sad for medium armor as a whole...

Gilvoth

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Nah it's good.

Allows you to get a huge detect range (when paired with magelight) but only for a limited time, thus not completely negating NB's only reason for existing.

Talcyndl

Rianai wrote: »

Detect pots don't prevent a nb from cloaking. It just allows you to see stealthed/cloaked players within a certain range. And that range gets reduced by passives that reduce detection range (medium armor, racial passives, certain sets, ...). So especially against many stamblades detect potions and other cloak counters like magelight don't work that well. I think, those passives should not affect stealth counters. (To avoid nerfing medium armor the stealth passive should be replaced by something more usefull for non nb/gankers).

This.

I think the detect pots should act like some abilities and prevent restealthing for a short period after a successful detection.

Talcyndl

Fasold666 wrote: »

And in combination with that, detection potions are just fine imo.

The thing that annoys me is that even with a DoT on a NB, he can still restealth and not come out when taking damage, even without purging the DoT.

Rianai

NB don't take dmg from single target DoT while in cloak, so ofc it doesn't break. DoT breaking stealth would render cloak useless.

zyk

I struggle with cloaked NBs because my current character is built in a way that is not optimal for handling them. This is a designed compromise. I choose to be strong in some areas and weak in others. I know there are certain builds that will give me problems.

When I build to counter cloak, it is trivial to handle. There are SO many counters including every AE. There are also common class abilities like curse and backlash. When I fight open field, I often have so many curses on me, it sounds like popcorn. Magelight is everywhere. As are ground AE and AE CCs like encase.

Cloak has far too many counters as it is for a class that is, objectively, the squishiest and is supposed to have strong battlefield mobility.

I suggest you either build to counter cloak or accept the compromises of your build. Cloak has already been nerfed in terms of overall effectiveness since ESO 2.3.

Telel

Telel finds that bringing your own night blade is sufficient to counter a good number of the cloaking tactics. Mark target is a wonderful thing.

Plus you already have more counters to that one skill than exist for any other skill that does more than cause damage. And then there's the fact that cloak is still glitchy.

Unlike oh say, jabs, shields, and cliff racers...

So again, bring along a pet night blade and sic them on the one thing you're not built to handle. This one likes to call that, teamwork.

NightbladeMechanics

Mark and detection and invisibility are all so difficult to balance in this game.

Lexxypwns

I think detect pots are in a good place personally. Sure, they still allow crafty nightblades to escape without a direct fight, but I think that's ok. While he is avoiding detect pot range you have an opportunity to regain your resources and effectively reset the fight. Furthermore, the nightblade doesn't always know you've used a detect pot, because of the unreliability of cloak in many situations, a lot of them cannot tell if its a detect pot or just cloak bugging.

Detect pots gives you a huge upper hand against cloak reliant nightblades, if they are cloak dependent and engage you during your detect pot they will nearly always lose and if they disengage then the fight resets. They do not give you the ability to force a fight or negate escape, I think this is balanced, you can determine the terms of the engagement, flipping the script on the cloak-blade, if the range or timer is extended too far then they become an "I win" button against cloak-blades and I don't think that's good design.

Talcyndl

Rianai wrote: »

Sure, they still allow crafty nightblades to escape without a direct fight, but I think that's ok

It's not the escape that is an issue. It's them resetting and re-engaging (with attack bonuses) at will.

I just want the detect pots to keep them from restealthing for a period - like they seemed to do in the past. Although whether that was simply because of better range or some other change, I don't know.

zyk

Talcyndl wrote: »

I just want the detect pots to keep them from restealthing for a period - like they seemed to do in the past. Although whether that was simply because of better range or some other change, I don't know.

I do not recall that ever being true. And it would be OP if it were. There would be no point to using cloak if it were so trivial to counter without even having to slot a counter.

Autumnhart

Yes, you should definitely stop running detect pots. And don't bother getting your alchemy to 50, so expensive and boring.

HoloYoitsu

Subversus wrote: »

Fasold666 wrote: »

Yea, was a bit misunderstandable. I meant "cant go invisible for you". Personally, detect potions are my second most used potion and I have never had an issues with the radius (without magelight). Even if the NB gets out of the radius and - if he isnt good at utilizing shadow image - I can mostly predict where he will be and come close again.

As a magsorc main I obviously have the strongest toolkit to control a NB in a fight and keep him out of stealth for most of the time (perma curse, soulstrike and streak or boundless if I choose it) and I see that for example a stam or mag DK will have it more difficult.
So it is up the toolkits a class has (skills that pull a NB out of cloak - and there is a lot of them - or atleast that allow you to keep up with the speed/movement and therefore stay close to the NB and in its area where the detect potion works).

And in combination with that, detection potions are just fine imo.

Soul strike alone can pretty much delete medium stamblades, which is really sad for medium armor as a whole...

Only kills bads. After the second tick of soul assault you can cloak back into stealth and - being a dot, soul assault gets cancelled.

Talcyndl

zyk wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

I just want the detect pots to keep them from restealthing for a period - like they seemed to do in the past. Although whether that was simply because of better range or some other change, I don't know.

I do not recall that ever being true. And it would be OP if it were. There would be no point to using cloak if it were so trivial to counter without even having to slot a counter.

There was never a "can't cloak for x seconds after detection". But the actual function was similar. If you detected a NB, they remained detected for a period.

Now, the more common thing I see is that the NB 'blinks' in and out of detection. Which makes attacking them almost impossible.

zyk

Talcyndl wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

I just want the detect pots to keep them from restealthing for a period - like they seemed to do in the past. Although whether that was simply because of better range or some other change, I don't know.

I do not recall that ever being true. And it would be OP if it were. There would be no point to using cloak if it were so trivial to counter without even having to slot a counter.

There was never a "can't cloak for x seconds after detection". But the actual function was similar. If you detected a NB, they remained detected for a period.

When? Because that was not true when I tested them extensively in 2.0, nor have I observed this to be true since as a cloaking Nightblade who makes heavy use of detect potions.

Talcyndl

zyk wrote: »

When? Because that was not true when I tested them extensively in 2.0, nor have I observed this to be true since as a cloaking Nightblade who makes heavy use of detect potions.

When did they work you mean? I honestly couldn't give you an exact time period. At the beginning of the game, there simply weren't many effective NBs - partly because so many of their class skills (including cloak) were broken.

But when those skills were mostly fixed, NB gank/cloak/repeat took off. For much of 2016, I would constantly keep detect pots on my Q bar. They were effective. And not simply because of the longer duration.

That effectiveness now seems greatly diminished. It's hard to get a "lock" on a cloaked NB even when the detect pot is up.

zyk

Talcyndl wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

When? Because that was not true when I tested them extensively in 2.0, nor have I observed this to be true since as a cloaking Nightblade who makes heavy use of detect potions.

When did they work you mean? I honestly couldn't give you an exact time period. At the beginning of the game, there simply weren't many effective NBs - partly because so many of their class skills (including cloak) were broken.

You said potions provided a lockout period in the past. When was this so? Because it has never been true in my experience -- both as a cloaking nightblade who has to deal with detect potions, and also as someone who relies on them for handling cloaked NBs because I usually don't run other counters.

My detect potions work fine. No issue at all. I would bet the problem you're having is Shadow Image combined with the mobility and reduced detect range of medium armor NBs.

fred4

Talcyndl wrote: »

(1) The range of detect pots seems to require you to be almost directly on top of the NB.

I do not find this to be true. In fact, detect pots have good range. If you perceive it differently, then you are possibly using them at the wrong time. It's not that their range is small. You will detect stationary crouched enemies at a considerable distance, but you have to account for NBs, especially magblades with Concealed Weapon, moving quite fast. Don't use the potions speculatively. Use them when you hear a nightblade cloak, when you notice the detection eye changing (when you are crouched), or you catch a brief glimpse.

I find them very useful, whereas I am not a fan of Magelight / Expert Hunter. I prefer that the pots do NOT alert the NB or crouching player. It is tremendously useful for NBs themselves, for example in the lead up to a gank, but it also works against them. If, as a magblade, I try to escape, I need to choose between purely cloaking or casting defensive skills. Many defensive skills, such as Healing Ward and Purge, expose me. The result is that I will try to purely cloak, if I sense that players don't see me anymore, and will not cast my heals. In that context detection potions are one of my deadliest enemies, since I do not defend when I should, and you will kill me.

(2) Even once detected, the NB disappears again almost immediately.

Nope, I don't find this true either. I agree with the person who said they very likely used Shadow Image to elude you. It's easy to confuse the two, or at least I have done so in the past. An NB may disappear and re-appear inside AOE, if they cloak after each AOE tick. I do not have that issue with detect pots.

(3) The uptime on the detect portion of the pots is incredibly short.

Err ... no. Make sure to level your Medicinal Use passive. You should get 15.7 seconds.

And of course, using one puts you at a huge disadvantage because of the potion timer.

Again, what?? If you sense a Nightblade near, use an Immovability + Detect potion. It's the CC that kills you, when you're ganked. Using that potion at the (potential) beginning of a fight, especially a gank, is not a disadvantage.

Once the Nighblade has shown itself there are numerous counters, so I'll list some, in case you don't know. Do not rely on detection potions then. The following methods are cheaper and better ways to counter NBs:

(1) Make sure combat text is enabled, ZOS own or possibly addons. Immediately put a DOT on the NB. If the NB enters cloak, the combat text will say "Miss" every 2 seconds and show you where the NB is, even if you can't see it.

(2) If you are a templar, use Sweeps / Jabs. The AOE component and strong snare makes it hard for NBs to get awyay. They can't get away with Cloak, only with additional counter-measures, such as Forward Momentum, Shadow Image, or Mist Form.

(3) If you are a mag DK, use Talons for the same idea.

(4) The skill that no one uses: Consuming Trap. Available to all classes. Great sustain skill in Imperial City, and the DOT it places on NBs has a visual effect you'll still see, despite them cloaking. Little known, but quite broken.

(5) If you are a Nightblade yourself, you of course have Piercing Mark.

(6) If you are a stamsorc, your Hurricane makes it hard for NBs to attack you from stealth, and the combination with Streak roots out fleeing Nightblades quite successfully. Requires a bit of skill, I suppose, but stamsorcs are some of my worst enemies.

(7) If you are a DK, consider Flames of Oblivion. It won't detect NBs, but goes off as soon as they uncloak, which can be very helpful for your sense of direction. As a stam DK I also ran Blade Cloak. The combination of the two was helpful, even though not a hard counter. You may also consider Volatile Armor for the AOE.

(8) Sorcs curse me, and the double-whammy really messes with my nightblade in group play. I can no longer choose exactly when I re-engage with the curse ticking on me.

(9) Wardens are just big bumbling powerhouses in PvP. You'll Scorch every 3 seconds and you'll catch out all manner of players in your Northern Storm. Players who would run from the destro ult, but who either underestimate or can't get away from that warden ult.

fred4

I realise my post is perhaps too specific to my current magicka nightblade build. My hardest attacks are melee and a lot of what I said applies to melee encounters. I'll add two more thoughts:

(10) Ranged nightblades are hard-countered by DK wings. Unlike sorcs, practically all of their attacks are reflectable, unless they just Soul Assault you. As a warden you might run Crystalized Shield. As a 1H + S user, Absort Magic / Defensive Posture.

(11) If a nightblade is low on health and disengages with cloak, and you are dual-wield (I know, a lot of ifs), consider that Steel Tornado is an execute and will hit it regardless, if it is still in range.

Vizier

You're not doing it right. Detect Pots are awesome.

Autumnhart

fred4 wrote: »

Talcyndl wrote: »

(1) The range of detect pots seems to require you to be almost directly on top of the NB.

I do not find this to be true. In fact, detect pots have good range. If you perceive it differently, then you are possibly using them at the wrong time. It's not that their range is small. You will detect stationary crouched enemies at a considerable distance, but you have to account for NBs, especially magblades with Concealed Weapon, moving quite fast. Don't use the potions speculatively. Use them when you hear a nightblade cloak, when you notice the detection eye changing (when you are crouched), or you catch a brief glimpse.

I find them very useful, whereas I am not a fan of Magelight / Expert Hunter. I prefer that the pots do NOT alert the NB or crouching player. It is tremendously useful for NBs themselves, for example in the lead up to a gank, but it also works against them. If, as a magblade, I try to escape, I need to choose between purely cloaking or casting defensive skills. Many defensive skills, such as Healing Ward and Purge, expose me. The result is that I will try to purely cloak, if I sense that players don't see me anymore, and will not cast my heals. In that context detection potions are one of my deadliest enemies, since I do not defend when I should, and you will kill me.

(2) Even once detected, the NB disappears again almost immediately.

Nope, I don't find this true either. I agree with the person who said they very likely used Shadow Image to elude you. It's easy to confuse the two, or at least I have done so in the past. An NB may disappear and re-appear inside AOE, if they cloak after each AOE tick. I do not have that issue with detect pots.

(3) The uptime on the detect portion of the pots is incredibly short.

Err ... no. Make sure to level your Medicinal Use passive. You should get 15.7 seconds.

And of course, using one puts you at a huge disadvantage because of the potion timer.

Again, what?? If you sense a Nightblade near, use an Immovability + Detect potion. It's the CC that kills you, when you're ganked. Using that potion at the (potential) beginning of a fight, especially a gank, is not a disadvantage.

Once the Nighblade has shown itself there are numerous counters, so I'll list some, in case you don't know. Do not rely on detection potions then. The following methods are cheaper and better ways to counter NBs:

(1) Make sure combat text is enabled, ZOS own or possibly addons. Immediately put a DOT on the NB. If the NB enters cloak, the combat text will say "Miss" every 2 seconds and show you where the NB is, even if you can't see it.

(2) If you are a templar, use Sweeps / Jabs. The AOE component and strong snare makes it hard for NBs to get awyay. They can't get away with Cloak, only with additional counter-measures, such as Forward Momentum, Shadow Image, or Mist Form.

(3) If you are a mag DK, use Talons for the same idea.

(4) The skill that no one uses: Consuming Trap. Available to all classes. Great sustain skill in Imperial City, and the DOT it places on NBs has a visual effect you'll still see, despite them cloaking. Little known, but quite broken.

(5) If you are a Nightblade yourself, you of course have Piercing Mark.

(6) If you are a stamsorc, your Hurricane makes it hard for NBs to attack you from stealth, and the combination with Streak roots out fleeing Nightblades quite successfully. Requires a bit of skill, I suppose, but stamsorcs are some of my worst enemies.

(7) If you are a DK, consider Flames of Oblivion. It won't detect NBs, but goes off as soon as they uncloak, which can be very helpful for your sense of direction. As a stam DK I also ran Blade Cloak. The combination of the two was helpful, even though not a hard counter. You may also consider Volatile Armor for the AOE.

(8) Sorcs curse me, and the double-whammy really messes with my nightblade in group play. I can no longer choose exactly when I re-engage with the curse ticking on me.

(9) Wardens are just big bumbling powerhouses in PvP. You'll Scorch every 3 seconds and you'll catch out all manner of players in your Northern Storm. Players who would run from the destro ult, but who either underestimate or can't get away from that warden ult.

Turelus

You know there are two skill which stops them cloaking for 3 seconds right? 3 seconds is more than enough time to CC someone and if they're constantly CC breaking they won't have much stamina left.

Rather than constantly buffing the already good methods or nerfing the cloak skill maybe people could just start using the hard counter skills. I know it's not listed in any of the build guides you read, but you're allowed to change skills and adapt.

/endrant

fred4

As a magblade I cover CC breaking reasonably well, but if you constantly CC me as soon as the immunity is up, you can get me into trouble. Low stamina is, however, one of the reasons I may (try to) temporarily disengage from a fight with cloak.

Talcyndl

zyk wrote: »

You said potions provided a lockout period in the past. When was this so? Because it has never been true in my experience -- both as a cloaking nightblade who has to deal with detect potions, and also as someone who relies on them for handling cloaked NBs because I usually don't run other counters.

My detect potions work fine. No issue at all. I would bet the problem you're having is Shadow Image combined with the mobility and reduced detect range of medium armor NBs.

It was never a "lockout" period - ie, not like mage light.

However, when you detected someone in the past, they stayed detected for longer. Now, what I often see is the detected player blinking in and out of visibility. The overall effective rate when I pop a pot has thereby declined significantly.

Talcyndl

fred4 wrote: »

Again, what?? If you sense a Nightblade near, use an Immovability + Detect potion. It's the CC that kills you, when you're ganked. Using that potion at the (potential) beginning of a fight, especially a gank, is not a disadvantage.

Thanks for the extensive reply - good information. I just wanted to reply to this part though.

Every build/play style has a pot that is most beneficial to them. Immovable is obviously almost universally beneficial in PvP. But the other effects vary. In the case of my Warden I prefer to use an immovable +Mag+Spell crit. Switching to a detect pot requires sacrificing some/all of those other effects.

In my opinion, that trade off should be balanced by having detect pots be more effective.