ESO has a terrible first impression to new comer

ADarklore · September 2017

Reading this... I'm reminded of the numerous threads in which players have angrily come to the forums to complain about how they've tried to teach 'new players' how to play the game, and those players REFUSE TO LISTEN. My experience in this an every other MMO I've played, is that players want to play THEIR WAY, they DO NOT want to 'learn' or 'listen' to others... they fully expect the game to do what THEY want and will bang their heads against the wall trying to get it to do what THEY WANT until they get frustrated and leave. Those who truly want to learn and grow in this game will take the time to do their own research or join guilds to improve... I watched hours of YouTube videos before I even started playing ESO just so I could understand it before I started. Whenever I found something I didn't understand, I came to the forums and asked for help.

The problem isn't with ZOS and their tutorials, the problem is with the PLAYERS and their attitudes. Many players who leave disgruntled or negative reviews, it's because the game didn't conform to what they expected or wanted. I read plenty of Amazon reviews and laugh at the negative ones in which they expected an item to be something it wasn't even designed for and stated in the description that it couldn't do, yet the customer blamed the product for not being what they wanted. Go figure.

Castagere · September 2017

laced wrote: »

FoolishHuman wrote: »

These people expect a classic elderscrolls game, but with coop. They won't like the MMO genre any more just because you explain it to them.

That is the biggest problem with the people giving bad reviews. The expected skyrim online. People that expected that, ever since this games beta, were disappointed and will stay disappointed.

This 100%
And sadly there is no way escaping this. They wanted the game to play like Skyrim and not having to use class abilities. These were not real mmo players.

Pr0Skygon · September 2017

laced wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I knew there were tutorial hints but I didn't even know the help section was that in depth.

Learn something new everyday.

it used to be pretty bare bones to be fair. It is very well thought out now. I was a huge vocal critic of how it used to be.

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Also, are you kidding me with those feeds? "Well we have dungeons, mini dungeons, ultimate skills and weapon/armor enchant, just like all others mmorpg". Really? That's it? Just those basics? Not animation canceling, your game's best selling point? Not even skills rotation and combos, those of which gives PvE and PvP the meter to measure how good you are? Or even how gears are categorized into different sets, and those sets will determine your playstyle?

Animation cancelling is ESO's best selling point ? Are you for real ? Animation canceling is an advanced technique, not even intended by design, that's only relevant for say 1% of the population (and 1% or even less of the content).
The "just like all other MMORPGs" part is also irrelevant. The issue here is the retention of players who are completely new to MMOs, new to group play, and/or expecting Skyrim-online.

Also, ESO is NOT designed as a competitive game. Therefore the tutorials are meant to explain the combat systems, different types of skills, zones, delves and enemies. They are not supposed to teach anyone how to "git gud" because you don't have to "be gud" to play ESO and complete the quests. It would scare the hell out of most new players.

Actually animation canceling is intended. Please do some research first.

Also, if you don't explain about your unique features, then why the hell should people buy ESO in the first place?

If you just want dungeons, World PvP and small scale PvP, just go play GW2. And it's free.

But if you want to play a game with high ceiling skills gameplay, vast about of gears and diversity

laced wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

@laced So basically if all MMORPG are boring at first, then no MMORPG should improve upon that disadvantage? Really? This is why American still can't have a woman president. "Since it has always been like that, why should we be better?" It's called "evolve", and that's how we should always thrive forward.

Did you really compare the systematic oppression of women in the United states to a video game strategy which is tried and true? The beginnings of mmos are always boring because they are supposed to be super easy to let gamers get the hang of the game. If they make it super intricate and complex people would complain about that. And honestly, if you look at the beginning now vs the beginning when the game first came out, it is EONS more interesting. Hell, they even changed the dialogue options and some of the cinematics.

I stopped reading at the part "The beginning of MMOs are always boring". That's anti - consumer at best, and lazy at worst. If you're in this kind of industry, where imagination and innovative take the lead, this kind of thinking is unacceptable.

Wanna hear a story about innovation? Most RPG games in late 2000s tried to be as friendly and easy for new players as much as they can. Then came Dark Souls, and now we have 3 Dark Souls, 1 Bloodborne, a samurai Dark Souls called Nioh, a Sci fi called The Surge and an upcoming vampire Dark Souls called Code Veil. So please never say "The beginning of MMOs are always boring" ever again. It's not wrong, for now, but this is pure anti - innovative, and I despite it.

Dark souls is not an mmo, by any measure. It is a coop game. And people would flee in droves if any mmo was that difficult at first. There is a difference between difficult, and masochistic. That is what dark souls is for. Again, this is not an coop single player game, it is a mmorpg. Also, you clearly were not here at launch, when overland mobs were much much more difficult, and people were complain en masse about how difficult the beginning of the game was. So clearly, the majority did not want that. I wouldnt mind having more difficult beginnings, but this is a generational problem. And if you stop reading just because you dont agree with something - that - is the problem now adays with everything.

I think missing the point. I've never said that Dark Souls is an mmo, not by a long shot. What i'm saying is never ever put a whole genre of games into a stereotype. Such as "mmos will always be boring at first". Or "Shooter games are only for hardcore" (ahem, Overwatch). Or "Early access games are all cheap and lazily made" (ahem, PUBG). Or even "Stealth game will never catch on and become a thing" (said Konami executives, when Kojima told them about Metal Gear Solid).

Again, the beginning of ESO, at launch, was more difficult, so much so people were dying constantly from overland mobs of 3-4. People complained, -alot-, and it was changed at some point.

As for your comment about a "lacking" explanation of combat, please try again.

Literally the only thing missing is an explanation of animation cancelling, which I have said we need for a long time, but a simple " how did x player kill me so fast " communication to other players would get an explanation quickly.

You're missing the point, again. I've never said anything about ESO's difficulty for new comers, I'm merely talking about ZOS and how they poorly explain their own game.

Also, are you kidding me with those feeds? "Well we have dungeons, mini dungeons, ultimate skills and weapon/armor enchant, just like all others mmorpg". Really? That's it? Just those basics? Not animation canceling, your game's best selling point? Not even skills rotation and combos, those of which gives PvE and PvP the meter to measure how good you are? Or even how gears are categorized into different sets, and those sets will determine your playstyle? Or even how to farm those sets, where to farm those sets. They don't even explain how Major and Minor buffs with the same name cannot be stack upon each other with the same type of Major or Minor. Stop trying to defend ZOS from their poor job, please. Accept the fact that new comers are in blind, and force ZOS to do a better job explaining their own game. You're not helping the game by defending it, but hurting it by being so full of forgiveness.

If you would bother to read it explains synergies, and everything about combat as well, it is pretty clear you do not like the game and no matter how much you are shown the instructions you will still complain. Gj.

What are you even talking about at this point? I have 8 toons with over 3000 hours of gaming. I'm making this thread so that ESO can have a much more friendly and overall better experience for new comers. What you're trying to do is just blindly defending ZOS for their mistake, and preventing the game from its full potential. Good job.

Your original complaint was how ZoS does a bad job at explaining basic combat mechanics, the availablity of pvp, etc. I showed you they didn't. Then you complain about non mmo players not knowing basic mmo mechanics, so I showed you how they explain that too, then you say those are basic mmo mechanics and everyone should know them. You also complained that the beginning was too boring, and i explained how it used to be more difficult / fun (imo) and everyone complained, the very player you are trying to defend atm, complained about the more engaging beginning. Get out of here, you are complaining for the sake of complaining now. ZoS has listened to the "new" player base for a while now. I have been saying since the get go we need a animation cancelling tutorial, but really, that is it. If I see something that really is a problem, like the ever lasting bugs for certain classes, or the bad framerate issue, or the horrible servers, I will be the first to criticize, but what you are describing is not a problem.

And your "explanation" shows nothing, since there're nothing valuable to be show to begin with. What you shown is the basic of the basics that everyone would know. I'll not get out of here just because of a blind man tell me to. Sure, the game has tons of problems, but obviously, I don't need to say anything about them anymore, since there're nothing left for me to say. What I want to say though, is what people are misunderstood.

People like yourself see the game as a veteran, someone who has already been in the game for so long, it has become your 2nd life. I'm making this thread base on new comers perspective, from people online, and friends offline that have tried and failed to understand the game. I'm making this thread in order for ZOS to see how they can improve upon themselves. If my point reach ZOS, new comers will have a much better experience than ever.

On the other hand, your argument will resolve into nothing. ZOS won't appreciate you for defending their mistake, new comers will still have a lackcluster opening hours. No body wins.

So seriously, what are you trying to archive? You can't show me anything new, or teach me anything, since I've already know and read everything ingame before making this thread. Just stop. Please. You're preventing the game from evolve to its full potential, and it hurts everyone. It hurts new comers, me, ZOS, and even yourself. So stop.

2nd life? Are you kidding me? I took a 1 year break and a half a year break from this game because I wasnt happy with it, then recently I came back and am much more pleased with it now adays.I am cp 283, which is far from being a huge veteran player. I have never done hardmode dungeons, or trials because I never got any characters geared enough to do so. My life revolves around my transition, exercise, outdoor sports, and music. This is a fun little hobby of mine. I have literally debunked all your complaints through screen shots, and then every time you find something else to call the whambulance about. Good grief.

It was a metaphor, meaning that you've already known in and out of the game. Not calling you a weeb or anything. If I did sound like that then I'm sorry, cause it wasn't my intention.

Also, if you want to talk about life and experience, then I'm CP600 with 8 toons, all 5 classes included. I play all roles, dps, tank and healer. A lot time spent on PvP. I've already done vAA, vHRC and vSO. In real life, I'm a marketing working in the media and entertainment industry. And for what I've said is what I've collected from various sources. I might have only been working with my current job for 2 years, but what I have learnt is that first impressions are escentual for success of your product. If your product get criticized for bad first impression, you'll make sure that the problems is present, and instead of blindly defend yourself, improving your product seems to be a much better decision.

FrancisCrawford · September 2017

MMO creators commonly lavish attention on the art, character and/or story of the beginner areas. When those fail, things get boring, since the combat never amounts to much.

ESO, I think, did a great job of that in the DC and AD, but not so much in the EP. (And opinions will surely vary widely on the Coldharbour part.)

Guild Wars did it through art in the first two chapters, and in the plot twist that finishes the beginner section of the original game.

In LOTRO,

The hobbit choice to start through you into a cute/cool part of Middle-Earth.
The human choice was unfortunately a slog, until you were through the beginner area and indeed a little beyond it and finally got to Bree.
The elf choice had amazing art.
The dwarf choice was kind of boring.

Guild Wars 2 to some extent concentrated their major characters & cut scenes on the early going, but on the whole IMO didn't do enough.

Mojmir · September 2017

Sadly, if it wasn't for the single player games in the series, eso would already an afterthought. No way would this game have made it this far without them preceding the franchise. IMO

Pr0Skygon · September 2017

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Do those feeds tell you that you can animation cancel? Do those feeds tell you that you should not spam 1 skill only as a dps in dungeons? Do those feeds tell you what the hell does a tank do in dungeon?

@Pr0Skygon

"Animation cancel"
Zenimax hates it! Zenimax will not teach something that was not to happen.
"1 skill spam"
Does Zenimax really have to teach people to use the 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 keys?
"tank"
First, you say it's tedious for beginners to enter a dungeon. Then you want Zenimax to teach you how to be a tank, being a beginner? Tank and healer is not for beginners. How to become a tank or healer? Being a DPS, watching what the tanks and healers do. World of Warcraft was my first MMORPG. And that's how I learned how to play as Tank, DPS and Healer.

However, I agree that ESO is not friendly to noobs. I don't think that's a problem. There are so many MMOs that deliver everything chewed.These are MMOs that I stopped playing just because they made it easier.

I don't know about you, but I started as a tank, while my brother was a healer. We were pretty terrible back then to be honest. Also, who the hell force beginner into DPS? And exclude from being tank and healer? Cause that doesn't sound like ZOS, since their marketing campaign clearly said "play how you want, no restriction".

And even till now, you can still be queued with tank without taunt, or healer with only mutagen as a healing skill.

Also, can ZOS at least introduce DPS to the concept of "Skill rotation"? It not only helps players to be more motivation to perfect their skill, but also enjoying themselves a lot more than smashing 1 button all over again.

And yes, I said "introduce", not teaching. I only want ZOS to at least tell player "Hey there's a thing call dps rotation and animation canceling, please ask random people or watch Youtube for more info". Not being totally silent about it (as of right now).

Pr0Skygon · September 2017

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

MMO creators commonly lavish attention on the art, character and/or story of the beginner areas. When those fail, things get boring, since the combat never amounts to much.

ESO, I think, did a great job of that in the DC and AD, but not so much in the EP. (And opinions will surely vary widely on the Coldharbour part.)

Guild Wars did it through art in the first two chapters, and in the plot twist that finishes the beginner section of the original game.

In LOTRO,
The hobbit choice to start through you into a cute/cool part of Middle-Earth.

The human choice was unfortunately a slog, until you were through the beginner area and indeed a little beyond it and finally got to Bree.

The elf choice had amazing art.

The dwarf choice was kind of boring.

Guild Wars 2 to some extent concentrated their major characters & cut scenes on the early going, but on the whole IMO didn't do enough.

Just IMO, ESO main story is quite interesting, just quite. But on the other, the presentation was so bare bone and bland. There's no memorable set piece or moment.

GW2 is totally opposite, the presentation was fine, but the story was pretty cliche and predictable.

I really don't think cut scene will fit ESO, since TES games have never ever need cut scenes. But I really do hope for a better presentation for such an epic tale.

RANKK7 · September 2017

laced wrote: »

I mean seriously, look at this in game manual, you will be hard pressed to find a game manual this in depth in any other mmo.

Are you truly serious? That barely covers how to navigate the combat interface and nothing about how the game works, what's penetration? Mitigation? Where are all the kind of damage explained as direct damage (for which people still open threads around in order to know exactly what the hell is?). Buffs and debuffs? Acronyms a newcomer completely ignore like proc that is even used in tooltips?
Some decent tabs would be needed with a decent appendix!
Look a this page: BUFFS and DEBUFFS, that's a user work, that should be zos work to make a tab with buffs and debuffs available in game! That's something actually useful! Is that so difficult?
These are the things we are talking about.
We can't even get a decent character tab with complete stats and that takes the cake about how ridiculously bad the tabs are made.

Doctordarkspawn · September 2017

@Pr0Skygon

I feel you. I do. I've been saying it for ages now.

You got duped out of about ten dollars. If you want to use something personalized, If you wanted not to do research and run the meta, I highly suggest you find a new MMO. Secret World legends is a good suggestion after the re-design.

However, I said this, far earlier. I've been saying it for years, that ESO is one of the most user unfriendly MMO's on the market, and that it failed outright to learn from every MMO to precede it. That it's tutorial and appendix systems are not just lacking, they're essentially dead tree's.

The fact someone else has come to this conclusion of they're own accord, is immensely vindicating. No matter how much those who have indoctinated themselves into believing this way of doing things is fine try to descourage and decredit your voice, do not lisen. You are fighting a good fight. And it needs to be fought.

Doctordarkspawn · September 2017

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Never played an MMORPG that explained anything at all I don't know where this is coming from. At the start they might show you what skill points are or ur first abilities but that about it.

Could you imagine how long the the beginning would be if they had to explain everything about gear dps healing tanking. I would quit so fast out of boredom.

Wrong.

Most games let you learn by playing and the design encourages and supports it. The piecemeal way you earn skills in Secret World Legends and WoW, the way you get to play around with a ability before another one is added, so you feel piecemeal how things fit into a kit or rotation.

ESO is just bad at teaching. And half the choices, if not two thirds, you are allowed are wrong. Sorry buddy. Better luck next time.

technohic · September 2017

laced wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

If you think ESO has it bad, you should see SWTOR. Funnily enough, even with the bad reviews, SWTOR is arguably at its peak right now.

I don't see how you can conclude that going from over 400 Servers at launch (200+ in both the US and Europe) to just 17 servers now, the majority of which are only Lightly Populated, and constant calls on the Forums for MORE Server Mergers, as being "arguably at its peak". There's no argument to be had - it ISN'T anywhere close to its peak.

SWTOR is in decline, another patch of no better quality than the last two and it will be in free fall.

The new lead Producer has failed to capitalise on the good-will he was given by the player-base for replacing the bumbling idiot Ben Irving, and rather that reversing the worst of Irving's choices on game direction is intent on seeing them through to their logical conclusion - which almost everyone except Bioware understands is the closing of the servers.

If Keith had delivered even 30% of the vision he was promoting in his introductory post as SWTOR Lead Producer he may have managed to turn this ice-berg destined ship around, but in reality he hasn't even managed 10%.

All The Best

Which is exactly why I left as well.

Same here.

SWTOR at its peak now? Someone is out their damned minds unless they got some people to bite on that buy 1 month get 1 month free promotion making it look better. I skipped it as it seems the same problem from that system a year ago has gone on with the great hope in the new director appearing to be just a big lip service.

technohic · September 2017

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Never played an MMORPG that explained anything at all I don't know where this is coming from. At the start they might show you what skill points are or ur first abilities but that about it.

Could you imagine how long the the beginning would be if they had to explain everything about gear dps healing tanking. I would quit so fast out of boredom.

I get where the OP is coming from but it's not something that can be explained to players coming for Skyrim 2 and getting an MMO.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2017

RANKK7 wrote: »

Are you truly serious? That barely covers how to navigate the combat interface and nothing about how the game works, what's penetration? Mitigation? Where are all the kind of damage explained as direct damage (for which people still open threads around in order to know exactly what the hell is?). Buffs and debuffs? Acronyms a newcomer completely ignore like proc that is even used in tooltips?
Some decent tabs would be needed with a decent appendix!
Look a this page: BUFFS and DEBUFFS, that's a user work, that should be zos work to make a tab with buffs and debuffs available in game! That's something actually useful! Is that so difficult?
These are the things we are talking about.

You're not talking about tutorials here, but about reference pages.
I agree those are sorely needed. I never understood why ZOS was so secretive about all those mechanics and calculations, and expect players to reverse engineer the entire game. Maybe hey think that having to guess, test and figure things out warrants us fun gaming time ?
Other players (familiar with other MMOs) told me every MMO was the same in that regard. No reference data anywhere.

IwakuraLain42 · September 2017

laced wrote: »

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

Yes the did and still does a terrible job at explaining itself in the game, even with new tutorial. If you want to an example of a good tutorial play ff14 for some time. This is a mmo with the same complexity as TESO and it explains every little detail while playing the game.

I played ff14, the whole beginner area. And what you are saying is just not true. Bad ZoS for expecting people to read.

I don't know what or when you played it but whenever I start a new char in that game I get flooded with tutorial screens explaining every little detail.

Doctordarkspawn · September 2017

technohic wrote: »

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Never played an MMORPG that explained anything at all I don't know where this is coming from. At the start they might show you what skill points are or ur first abilities but that about it.

Could you imagine how long the the beginning would be if they had to explain everything about gear dps healing tanking. I would quit so fast out of boredom.

I get where the OP is coming from but it's not something that can be explained to players coming for Skyrim 2 and getting an MMO.

Except I doubt the people are, and the OP isn't either.

The game in that aspect was shot for many. No, the people are comparing it directly to other MMO's. I'm sorry, but that scapegoat has sailed.

Tasear · September 2017

Hmm remember when we said why we love eso some of said it was the people? Maybe this is why because it was people who taught us the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The game in that aspect was shot for many. No, the people are comparing it directly to other MMO's. I'm sorry, but that scapegoat has sailed.

I don't think so. Skyrim remastered was a success. People want more of it and come over to ESO. One Tamriel was made to make ESO more Skyrim-like, more "play how you want", more "open world", without progression-gated zones, etc.
I think ESO has been increasingly catering to the TES crowd (as opposed to the MMO crowd) and that this trend will continue.

None of us has figures nor can read into ZOS' marketing strategy, so you or I could be wrong, but that's my belief anyway - from what I can see of the evolution of ESO.

OutLaw_Nynx · September 2017

It really sounds like you want ZOS to hold your hand tbh.

anitajoneb17_ESO · September 2017

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

It really sounds like you want ZOS to hold your hand tbh.

I think that the MMO-players would like ZOS to lead new players into a more homogenous type of gameplay, so that it is easier to group up and set expectations onto other players.

Doctordarkspawn · September 2017

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

It really sounds like you want ZOS to hold your hand tbh.

Lemme put it this way.

I'd like for the classes to be binary and the goals for player power to be set so there's no confusion as to what exactly you are geting into.

Right now, if you want to do trials, you build meta, or you dont run. Dungeons are geting to be the same way after the changes. But if that's what they want, fine. But design the game -around- that and stop having a multiple choice system where you screw yourself.

Doctordarkspawn · September 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The game in that aspect was shot for many. No, the people are comparing it directly to other MMO's. I'm sorry, but that scapegoat has sailed.

I don't think so. Skyrim remastered was a success. People want more of it and come over to ESO. One Tamriel was made to make ESO more Skyrim-like, more "play how you want", more "open world", without progression-gated zones, etc.
I think ESO has been increasingly catering to the TES crowd (as opposed to the MMO crowd) and that this trend will continue.

None of us has figures nor can read into ZOS' marketing strategy, so you or I could be wrong, but that's my belief anyway - from what I can see of the evolution of ESO.

Most of the people I talk to who want 'skyrim 2' came to the original release, left, and started warning people off. I dont think that aspect works.

I think it's more likely people who liked older school games like Dark Age of Camelot came here hence some of the design choices, and player wants.

dpencil1 · September 2017

You know what would be better than a lot of vague complaining? Some specific suggestions.

How about cataloging the in-game turotial quest and tutorial pop-ups. List everything those cover. Discuss any elements you think don't get covered clearly enough and which elements are missing completely that a new player needs to know. Then offer suggestions about how exactly these deficits could be corrected.

SoLooney · September 2017

eso can be undaunting to most new players, esp if it is their first mmo. they try to enjoy quests and the story and if they played skyrim, are used to only light and heavy attacking and getting kills like that.

unless they want to be dedicated to the game where they max out important skills and passives, will probably get bored or frustrated. learning a rotation and weaving is a learning experience on top of getting the right gear which can take a while.

its rare to see new players who eventually want to be end game, i see guilds including the several im in struggling to find new blood who are able to learn mechanics, have solid dps, and the drive to complete the hard end game content aka vmol vhof vma vdsa.

as i see it. end game players are leaving the game and i hardly see any players taking their spot. they all move onto other games or just in general get bored of the grind in eso.

just my 2cents, hopefully things will change in the future but not banking on it

Arreyanne · September 2017

Started in the beta's quit about the timne my free 30 days ended. Came back a couple of times, then One tamriel.

Now I can get more than 12 xp for killing stuff at level 4. The snail speed leveling in this game prior to One Tameriel is what always drove me away.

It WAS the most boring MMO ever, well with the exception of the first 7 levels in FFXIV

Balamoor · September 2017

Meh....some folks live to bash things on the internet. ESO has had a target on it's back since announcement and the cult of Joe, also known as the "we want more skyrim" crowd has made a hobby of bashing the game every chance they get.

Of course I can't say much. Lets face it, ZoS pretty much thanks people "for their passion" for more or less threatening to firebomb the offices and doxxing the CEO because they don't have TES 6, or their grand vision of what MMO's must have isn't implemented.

As I said before, the game I enjoy, it's come a long way, but the community management is terrible.

ValkynSketha · September 2017

Sadly you also have crap quest and achev rewards instead they sell the cool *** in crown store and reward you with 5gold and green/white quality boring loot. : (

wenchmore420b14_ESO · September 2017

I see so many comparisons to Skyrim and the "People wanted Skyrim". BAH!
Let them play TES3:Morrowind!
No quest markers, no map, no hand holding. Skyrim was the most dumbed down version of all the 10 TES games.
Yes, ESO is different from other MMO's, thank Akatosh. Yes, it is complicated to learn. I myself spent the first few months trying to play it as a TES game, but I learned.
Had a friend join me at launch who had played WoW since vanilla, and he was like a "noob" trying to learn ESO, but he learned.

But, what more can ZoS do? Well they DO have tutorials pop up every few minutes when you start a new toon, pretty much explaining what that button you pressed does, or what you do next.
As shown above they DO have a whole help tab that explains a hell of a lot.
If ZoS added all the suggestions from above about skill slotting, rotations, class skills and which skills you should use,etc....
That would be 150+ pages of in game "Tool Tips", and if a new player isn't gonna use what the game offers now, what makes you think they will use that? There are 40,656,000 weapon variations in ESO before they added Warden. Should ZoS explain how to do them all??

The day is March 31, 2014. I loaded ESO and sucked at it. And thats after playing beta!! But I learned. I had the motivation to learn how to be better. I watched Deltias Build videos, I learned about @MissBizz and her awesome tutorial videos. I watched ESO Live and the Developer videos and interviews. I joined a guild! I asked questions!
The Truth is Out There!! For those who want to find it.

I do understand what the OP is saying. My guild recruits lots of new players who all say "I don't understand how to do this",
..So we invite them to our fold and teach them.

TL;DR~ If ZoS added "How To Do...(Blank)" for all the issues mentioned above, it would be hundreds of pages of tutorials that no one would read anyway and is redundant as there are sooo many good tutorial and "How To" videos out there, for those with the Motivation to look!
Just my 2 Drakes...
Huzzah!

Jade1986 · September 2017

Tandor wrote: »

I think the only thing ZOS have to provide in a tutorial is a simple guide to the basics so as to enable you to get started, and the present tutorial does a decent job in that respect.

The things the OP is complaining about would overload any tutorial and don't relate to the main leveling content. He's talking primarily about group content in dungeons etc, and that's something that groups themselves should assist newcomers with. Sadly, judging by the past threads on this forum, the game is full of elite MMO "veterans" whose only approach to someone struggling in a group is to kick him from the group.

ZOS can only do so much to prepare the new player for what's ahead of him, other players have to do their bit too whether it's in a group, in a guild, in chat, or here on the forums.

Where I do agree with the OP is that ESO is more prone to these problems than most other MMORPGs because by its every nature it attracts players new to MMOs and whose only previous experience is the single-player TES series or similar single -player CRPGs. That simply means there's a greater onus on all of us to help them rather than humiliate them.

I agree with that, but the in game help menu explains all of it pretty in depth.

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I knew there were tutorial hints but I didn't even know the help section was that in depth.

Learn something new everyday.

it used to be pretty bare bones to be fair. It is very well thought out now. I was a huge vocal critic of how it used to be.

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Also, are you kidding me with those feeds? "Well we have dungeons, mini dungeons, ultimate skills and weapon/armor enchant, just like all others mmorpg". Really? That's it? Just those basics? Not animation canceling, your game's best selling point? Not even skills rotation and combos, those of which gives PvE and PvP the meter to measure how good you are? Or even how gears are categorized into different sets, and those sets will determine your playstyle?

Animation cancelling is ESO's best selling point ? Are you for real ? Animation canceling is an advanced technique, not even intended by design, that's only relevant for say 1% of the population (and 1% or even less of the content).
The "just like all other MMORPGs" part is also irrelevant. The issue here is the retention of players who are completely new to MMOs, new to group play, and/or expecting Skyrim-online.

Also, ESO is NOT designed as a competitive game. Therefore the tutorials are meant to explain the combat systems, different types of skills, zones, delves and enemies. They are not supposed to teach anyone how to "git gud" because you don't have to "be gud" to play ESO and complete the quests. It would scare the hell out of most new players.

Actually animation canceling is intended. Please do some research first.

Also, if you don't explain about your unique features, then why the hell should people buy ESO in the first place?

If you just want dungeons, World PvP and small scale PvP, just go play GW2. And it's free.

But if you want to play a game with high ceiling skills gameplay, vast about of gears and diversity

laced wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

@laced So basically if all MMORPG are boring at first, then no MMORPG should improve upon that disadvantage? Really? This is why American still can't have a woman president. "Since it has always been like that, why should we be better?" It's called "evolve", and that's how we should always thrive forward.

Did you really compare the systematic oppression of women in the United states to a video game strategy which is tried and true? The beginnings of mmos are always boring because they are supposed to be super easy to let gamers get the hang of the game. If they make it super intricate and complex people would complain about that. And honestly, if you look at the beginning now vs the beginning when the game first came out, it is EONS more interesting. Hell, they even changed the dialogue options and some of the cinematics.

I stopped reading at the part "The beginning of MMOs are always boring". That's anti - consumer at best, and lazy at worst. If you're in this kind of industry, where imagination and innovative take the lead, this kind of thinking is unacceptable.

Wanna hear a story about innovation? Most RPG games in late 2000s tried to be as friendly and easy for new players as much as they can. Then came Dark Souls, and now we have 3 Dark Souls, 1 Bloodborne, a samurai Dark Souls called Nioh, a Sci fi called The Surge and an upcoming vampire Dark Souls called Code Veil. So please never say "The beginning of MMOs are always boring" ever again. It's not wrong, for now, but this is pure anti - innovative, and I despite it.

Dark souls is not an mmo, by any measure. It is a coop game. And people would flee in droves if any mmo was that difficult at first. There is a difference between difficult, and masochistic. That is what dark souls is for. Again, this is not an coop single player game, it is a mmorpg. Also, you clearly were not here at launch, when overland mobs were much much more difficult, and people were complain en masse about how difficult the beginning of the game was. So clearly, the majority did not want that. I wouldnt mind having more difficult beginnings, but this is a generational problem. And if you stop reading just because you dont agree with something - that - is the problem now adays with everything.

I think missing the point. I've never said that Dark Souls is an mmo, not by a long shot. What i'm saying is never ever put a whole genre of games into a stereotype. Such as "mmos will always be boring at first". Or "Shooter games are only for hardcore" (ahem, Overwatch). Or "Early access games are all cheap and lazily made" (ahem, PUBG). Or even "Stealth game will never catch on and become a thing" (said Konami executives, when Kojima told them about Metal Gear Solid).

Again, the beginning of ESO, at launch, was more difficult, so much so people were dying constantly from overland mobs of 3-4. People complained, -alot-, and it was changed at some point.

As for your comment about a "lacking" explanation of combat, please try again.

Literally the only thing missing is an explanation of animation cancelling, which I have said we need for a long time, but a simple " how did x player kill me so fast " communication to other players would get an explanation quickly.

You're missing the point, again. I've never said anything about ESO's difficulty for new comers, I'm merely talking about ZOS and how they poorly explain their own game.

Also, are you kidding me with those feeds? "Well we have dungeons, mini dungeons, ultimate skills and weapon/armor enchant, just like all others mmorpg". Really? That's it? Just those basics? Not animation canceling, your game's best selling point? Not even skills rotation and combos, those of which gives PvE and PvP the meter to measure how good you are? Or even how gears are categorized into different sets, and those sets will determine your playstyle? Or even how to farm those sets, where to farm those sets. They don't even explain how Major and Minor buffs with the same name cannot be stack upon each other with the same type of Major or Minor. Stop trying to defend ZOS from their poor job, please. Accept the fact that new comers are in blind, and force ZOS to do a better job explaining their own game. You're not helping the game by defending it, but hurting it by being so full of forgiveness.

If you would bother to read it explains synergies, and everything about combat as well, it is pretty clear you do not like the game and no matter how much you are shown the instructions you will still complain. Gj.

What are you even talking about at this point? I have 8 toons with over 3000 hours of gaming. I'm making this thread so that ESO can have a much more friendly and overall better experience for new comers. What you're trying to do is just blindly defending ZOS for their mistake, and preventing the game from its full potential. Good job.

Your original complaint was how ZoS does a bad job at explaining basic combat mechanics, the availablity of pvp, etc. I showed you they didn't. Then you complain about non mmo players not knowing basic mmo mechanics, so I showed you how they explain that too, then you say those are basic mmo mechanics and everyone should know them. You also complained that the beginning was too boring, and i explained how it used to be more difficult / fun (imo) and everyone complained, the very player you are trying to defend atm, complained about the more engaging beginning. Get out of here, you are complaining for the sake of complaining now. ZoS has listened to the "new" player base for a while now. I have been saying since the get go we need a animation cancelling tutorial, but really, that is it. If I see something that really is a problem, like the ever lasting bugs for certain classes, or the bad framerate issue, or the horrible servers, I will be the first to criticize, but what you are describing is not a problem.

And your "explanation" shows nothing, since there're nothing valuable to be show to begin with. What you shown is the basic of the basics that everyone would know. I'll not get out of here just because of a blind man tell me to. Sure, the game has tons of problems, but obviously, I don't need to say anything about them anymore, since there're nothing left for me to say. What I want to say though, is what people are misunderstood.

People like yourself see the game as a veteran, someone who has already been in the game for so long, it has become your 2nd life. I'm making this thread base on new comers perspective, from people online, and friends offline that have tried and failed to understand the game. I'm making this thread in order for ZOS to see how they can improve upon themselves. If my point reach ZOS, new comers will have a much better experience than ever.

On the other hand, your argument will resolve into nothing. ZOS won't appreciate you for defending their mistake, new comers will still have a lackcluster opening hours. No body wins.

So seriously, what are you trying to archive? You can't show me anything new, or teach me anything, since I've already know and read everything ingame before making this thread. Just stop. Please. You're preventing the game from evolve to its full potential, and it hurts everyone. It hurts new comers, me, ZOS, and even yourself. So stop.

2nd life? Are you kidding me? I took a 1 year break and a half a year break from this game because I wasnt happy with it, then recently I came back and am much more pleased with it now adays.I am cp 283, which is far from being a huge veteran player. I have never done hardmode dungeons, or trials because I never got any characters geared enough to do so. My life revolves around my transition, exercise, outdoor sports, and music. This is a fun little hobby of mine. I have literally debunked all your complaints through screen shots, and then every time you find something else to call the whambulance about. Good grief.

It was a metaphor, meaning that you've already known in and out of the game. Not calling you a weeb or anything. If I did sound like that then I'm sorry, cause it wasn't my intention.

Also, if you want to talk about life and experience, then I'm CP600 with 8 toons, all 5 classes included. I play all roles, dps, tank and healer. A lot time spent on PvP. I've already done vAA, vHRC and vSO. In real life, I'm a marketing working in the media and entertainment industry. And for what I've said is what I've collected from various sources. I might have only been working with my current job for 2 years, but what I have learnt is that first impressions are escentual for success of your product. If your product get criticized for bad first impression, you'll make sure that the problems is present, and instead of blindly defend yourself, improving your product seems to be a much better decision.

The thing is though, the population is stable, if not increasing, so more people hav a favorable first impression than not. You cannot please everyone. ZoS makes the game harder at launch, people complained, ZoS made it easier, people complained. People complained that the grind was too much, ZoS got rid of VR levels, people complained they got rid of vr levels. People complained about not having an in game instruction manual, ZoS makes one, people complain it doesnt explain EVERYTHING to the T.

Jade1986 · September 2017

RANKK7 wrote: »

laced wrote: »

I mean seriously, look at this in game manual, you will be hard pressed to find a game manual this in depth in any other mmo.

Are you truly serious? That barely covers how to navigate the combat interface and nothing about how the game works, what's penetration? Mitigation? Where are all the kind of damage explained as direct damage (for which people still open threads around in order to know exactly what the hell is?). Buffs and debuffs? Acronyms a newcomer completely ignore like proc that is even used in tooltips?
Some decent tabs would be needed with a decent appendix!
Look a this page: BUFFS and DEBUFFS, that's a user work, that should be zos work to make a tab with buffs and debuffs available in game! That's something actually useful! Is that so difficult?
These are the things we are talking about.
We can't even get a decent character tab with complete stats and that takes the cake about how ridiculously bad the tabs are made.

If you would bother going through the thing yourself, you would see that staus effects and the like are covered in the Instruction manual. Also, when ESO was released they made it clear they were going for a minimalist UI, and that players would be allowed to alter their UI through add ons. So that should not be a surprise at all.

Nifty2g · September 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Or I can just ask new players about their knowledge about mmorpg.
Here's what they say: "Dungeons, Raid, PvP, WvW, loot grind".
Basically they describe WOW, GW2, and yes, ESO. I have a new players guide guild, I know what I'm talking about.

You are biased.
You don't ask "new players", you ask "new players who have joined your new players' guild". A new player who straight up joins a guild is a new player who's familiar with MMOs.
A new player that isn't familiar with MMOs and comes from TES/Skyrim games will NOT join any guild until much, much later in the game, either because of need or because of curiosity.

@anitajoneb17_ESO
This is very true. When I first started I had no idea what a guild was or anything. I ended up joining one because I was curious what trials were, and then someone decided to help me out after seeing what gear I was using, made all this new gear and helped me learn the game (in that sense).
However, an approach like that doesn't work with everyone, not many people like it. But I like improving or being told I'm doing something wrong and that was one of the first people to approach me like in game, mind you this was just after trials were introduced.

A lot of you are mistaking though, ZOS themselves have said they do not consider themselves an MMO anymore, a lot of the new players are not really making it all the way to trials anymore because it is a very tedious road to get to. Most quest their way to level 50, get there and then learn about champion points, not everyone is going to grind out of their mind to the champion point cap which majority of trial guilds require. Which by the way takes over 60 hours of grinding, more if you are doing it by yourself and are not even efficient at grinding, and then once you manage to do that, what do you even learn from the grinding, you barely learn any combat or rotation skills.

ESO has an immense amount of content, but no way is the whole end game appealing to the new players, and I hope that is something they decide to eventually work on. Players come and go, but it's quite difficult to keep the end game with life and new players. In no way does anything tell you that you need to do this or that, it's the players who make those requirements, and it's unlikely a new player is going to go out there and do some research or even care about all the DPS numbers.

I didn't even run addons for the longest time. Most of you guys are being ignorant and forgetting what it was like when you first played.

As for the whole animation cancelling argument, I heard that time and time again, I never did it and it didn't make a difference at all. Most players around now don't do it, and all of the players who have said you need to animation cancel have all left the game. The only relevance animation cancelling has is probably when you bar swap to cancel out your DoTs.