PvE content difficulty Relative to Nerfs lately. Should it be adjusted?

Cage_Lizardman

karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »

karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »

Guilty_Gear wrote: »

I feel like 15-20k dps is low. But that's neither here nor there. The point of my comment is that I agree with the others here. I love ESO, but the pve is crazy easy. I was happy when they changed the WBs so I couldn't solo them anymore, now they need to make it so there is a little more effort required in the rest. 4 man dungeons, in particular, are so easy that I think most of the community can play then on auto-pilot. The random mobs are just fodder to slow down progress towards the bosses and the bosses are just as easy but with substantially larger health pools to make the fights longer.

wbs can 100% be soloed with the exception of a few dlc wbs

the issue with the game is the streamers in all honesty you got the guys showcasing gear saying super high crazy dps and what alot of people dont realise dps is 20-30% gear the rest rotation .... everyone is looking for the quick fix in gear and not even attempting to fix rotation which is why majority of player base suck

I've spent quite a bit of time trying to fix my rotation. I still suck.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Yes

The main questline needs to be a bit steeper in its difficulty progression. I am so used to running normal modes being easy af that I either solo or rwo man them, but the same in vet mode is leagues ahead simply because the gap in difficulty is too great.

Make normal mode harder so when we get to vet mode we arent expecting to *** it through. Seems to me that failed vet attempts (on my part anyway) come from being ill prepared by the normal modes, no matter how many hundreds of runs I've done.

zaria

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

Honghua wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

There are plenty of noob-friendly guilds that run and complete vet trials regularly (they only require 15-20k DPS). You don't need to practice for months to clear them. That's only if you want to get on leader boards.

The main reason why most people don't participate in trials is that organising a group of 12 people is a pain in the ass. The actual content isn't that hard.

And what part of the community actually is able to pull out that number?

You say this like people struggle to hit 15-20k dps. You realize you can literally tape down your mouse button and hit 20k dps right? This game is mind-numbingly easy.

LOL, would like to see that would like to know how too
Assuming we talk LA or HA and gear an scrub can get, No WMA weapons for obvious reasons.
No getting it from an rotation is not too hard.

Main issue with doing veteran trials with so low dps is that you have very small margins and need to coordinate a lot.

Doctordarkspawn

Yes

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

DjMuscleboy02 wrote: »

Honghua wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

There are plenty of noob-friendly guilds that run and complete vet trials regularly (they only require 15-20k DPS). You don't need to practice for months to clear them. That's only if you want to get on leader boards.

The main reason why most people don't participate in trials is that organising a group of 12 people is a pain in the ass. The actual content isn't that hard.

And what part of the community actually is able to pull out that number?

You say this like people struggle to hit 15-20k dps. You realize you can literally tape down your mouse button and hit 20k dps right? This game is mind-numbingly easy.

Hyperbole.

My point completely blew past you didn't it?

Considering most of your point was just rampant hyperbole to support the claim 'the game is easy' which is a statement that is subjective, it had no point.

bebynnag

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Content should be clearable by at least 25% of the active population IMO. This 1% elitism garbage is ruining endgame for the 99% who just want to play and have fun. Its a game, not a career.

What's stopping you from completing normal trials? It's the same exact CONTENT as the vet version, just easier. If vet is too hard, then stick to normal. You're still completing the same content.

Do you demand that single player game devs make their hardest difficulty beatable by 25% of players too? Harder difficulties are designed for players who want a challenge. You lose out on absolutely nothing by playing on lower difficulties.

If you want to beat a game on a harder difficulty, then get better. If you don't want to put the time in to get better, then just play on a lower difficulty. I really don't see what the problem is.

I DO expect a game to be completable without needing to read several theses in order to beat basic content, ESPECIALLY if its a single player game. Seems stupid for a company to deliberately exclude a majority of the player base.

As for what's stopping me completing normal mode? Nothing but boredom. The gap between faceroll stand in red and spam flurry to win and wtf vet mode is a biiiig jump in difficulty. And like the OP has suggested, its getting harder and harder to join in on vet trials as a newcomer.

The 1% and 99% was spoken figuratively as there is no real way of determing attempt/complete rates of the active player base. I selected those two numbers as I know they often occur in multi media when one group is over-represented by a fickle few.

ESO is NOT single player game - its an MMO

Bobby_V_Rockit

Yes

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Content should be clearable by at least 25% of the active population IMO. This 1% elitism garbage is ruining endgame for the 99% who just want to play and have fun. Its a game, not a career.

What's stopping you from completing normal trials? It's the same exact CONTENT as the vet version, just easier. If vet is too hard, then stick to normal. You're still completing the same content.

Do you demand that single player game devs make their hardest difficulty beatable by 25% of players too? Harder difficulties are designed for players who want a challenge. You lose out on absolutely nothing by playing on lower difficulties.

If you want to beat a game on a harder difficulty, then get better. If you don't want to put the time in to get better, then just play on a lower difficulty. I really don't see what the problem is.

I DO expect a game to be completable without needing to read several theses in order to beat basic content, ESPECIALLY if its a single player game. Seems stupid for a company to deliberately exclude a majority of the player base.

As for what's stopping me completing normal mode? Nothing but boredom. The gap between faceroll stand in red and spam flurry to win and wtf vet mode is a biiiig jump in difficulty. And like the OP has suggested, its getting harder and harder to join in on vet trials as a newcomer.

The 1% and 99% was spoken figuratively as there is no real way of determing attempt/complete rates of the active player base. I selected those two numbers as I know they often occur in multi media when one group is over-represented by a fickle few.

ESO is NOT single player game - its an MMO

And this makes it acceptable to exclude a majority of its players from completing achievements?

bebynnag

Honghua wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

There are plenty of noob-friendly guilds that run and complete vet trials regularly (they only require 15-20k DPS). You don't need to practice for months to clear them. That's only if you want to get on leader boards.

The main reason why most people don't participate in trials is that organising a group of 12 people is a pain in the ass. The actual content isn't that hard.

And what part of the community actually is able to pull out that number?

anyone with a good understanding of the game, unfortunatley this information is NOT available withing the actual game.

the only combat tutorails you get in game at the moment tell you to heavy attack your way through everything

heavy attacking your way through quests works

there are many heavy attack builds that do work, and work very well - but they are class/gear dependant

you can't heal a yourself let alone a team with resto heavy attacks (that passive isnt that good)

you can taunt with a heavy attack from an ice staff - which im assured has its uses in certain situations (i can not bring myself to equip an ice staff to my nord dk so i have retired her) but this is not suitable for all situations

which is why the in combat tutorials need to be improved.

bebynnag

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »

karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »

Guilty_Gear wrote: »

I feel like 15-20k dps is low. But that's neither here nor there. The point of my comment is that I agree with the others here. I love ESO, but the pve is crazy easy. I was happy when they changed the WBs so I couldn't solo them anymore, now they need to make it so there is a little more effort required in the rest. 4 man dungeons, in particular, are so easy that I think most of the community can play then on auto-pilot. The random mobs are just fodder to slow down progress towards the bosses and the bosses are just as easy but with substantially larger health pools to make the fights longer.

wbs can 100% be soloed with the exception of a few dlc wbs

the issue with the game is the streamers in all honesty you got the guys showcasing gear saying super high crazy dps and what alot of people dont realise dps is 20-30% gear the rest rotation .... everyone is looking for the quick fix in gear and not even attempting to fix rotation which is why majority of player base suck

I've spent quite a bit of time trying to fix my rotation. I still suck.

me too, but i blame my arthritis... i refuse to admit that im bad! LOL

Jammer480

No

All normal and vet 4-man dungeons need to be substantially more difficult. Normal trials could use a buff to be more difficult but not really that critical. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING should be made easier. I've been playing for 2yrs, probably in the bottom 5% when it comes to skill and I still find most of the vet content boring, trials excluded. I have even completed a few vet dungeons solo. Someone with my terrible skill should not be able to complete ANY vet content on solo.

This is not a single player game. New players who find the content too difficult need to join a guild that is willing to train new players, and there are many of those...I get spammed invites on a daily basis. And I run into great people constantly who are will to assist new players. The issue is that most new players are too embarrassed to ask.

Buffing or nerfing open world content is pointless because most world bosses I see even now have other players waiting around to grind them down in a few seconds.

Lastly, I have been part of a few vet trials, most of which I did not find the content that difficult. The issue was the lag and constant disconnects to the point where people finally quit. THAT is what needs to be addressed before they can even approach the discussion of difficulty nerfs/buffs. I personally have no great desire to do vet trials, but should that change, I have no doubt that I will be able to find a group and be able to do the content, barring connection issues.

zaria

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »

karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »

Guilty_Gear wrote: »

I feel like 15-20k dps is low. But that's neither here nor there. The point of my comment is that I agree with the others here. I love ESO, but the pve is crazy easy. I was happy when they changed the WBs so I couldn't solo them anymore, now they need to make it so there is a little more effort required in the rest. 4 man dungeons, in particular, are so easy that I think most of the community can play then on auto-pilot. The random mobs are just fodder to slow down progress towards the bosses and the bosses are just as easy but with substantially larger health pools to make the fights longer.

wbs can 100% be soloed with the exception of a few dlc wbs

the issue with the game is the streamers in all honesty you got the guys showcasing gear saying super high crazy dps and what alot of people dont realise dps is 20-30% gear the rest rotation .... everyone is looking for the quick fix in gear and not even attempting to fix rotation which is why majority of player base suck

I've spent quite a bit of time trying to fix my rotation. I still suck.

Yes, on my templar using julianos / mother sorrow back before morrowind I found having an pretty good rotation did not take me much over 15K, just a bit above spamming sweeps, spamming dark flare had best results single target.
Rotation was pretty thigh, made an macro of it to get an upper limit and the dummy.
yes I was only cp200 or something back then.
Made her a healer, found that it eliminated queues in dungeon finder and has not tested dps afterward

bebynnag

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Content should be clearable by at least 25% of the active population IMO. This 1% elitism garbage is ruining endgame for the 99% who just want to play and have fun. Its a game, not a career.

What's stopping you from completing normal trials? It's the same exact CONTENT as the vet version, just easier. If vet is too hard, then stick to normal. You're still completing the same content.

Do you demand that single player game devs make their hardest difficulty beatable by 25% of players too? Harder difficulties are designed for players who want a challenge. You lose out on absolutely nothing by playing on lower difficulties.

If you want to beat a game on a harder difficulty, then get better. If you don't want to put the time in to get better, then just play on a lower difficulty. I really don't see what the problem is.

I DO expect a game to be completable without needing to read several theses in order to beat basic content, ESPECIALLY if its a single player game. Seems stupid for a company to deliberately exclude a majority of the player base.

As for what's stopping me completing normal mode? Nothing but boredom. The gap between faceroll stand in red and spam flurry to win and wtf vet mode is a biiiig jump in difficulty. And like the OP has suggested, its getting harder and harder to join in on vet trials as a newcomer.

The 1% and 99% was spoken figuratively as there is no real way of determing attempt/complete rates of the active player base. I selected those two numbers as I know they often occur in multi media when one group is over-represented by a fickle few.

ESO is NOT single player game - its an MMO

And this makes it acceptable to exclude a majority of its players from completing achievements?

MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game

this means that you need to learn to play nice with others

this is something you either need to learn to do - or accept that you will never acquire a particular achivent

just because a bunch of 'lone wolves' want the pretty colour/skin/title/achievment/gamerscore or 'feel the need to complete every achievment in the game' doesnt mean all content should be nerfed into the ground so that they can solo it

Ryan1704

Yes

I sort of feel like i havent been nerfed but i havent progressed much either but considering that with each patch im gaining more cp but im not getting any character development from that because the items that i am using are being toned down. Also the only real nerf is the fun factor as generally the pace of the gameplay has slowed

Yamenstein

No

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Content should be clearable by at least 25% of the active population IMO. This 1% elitism garbage is ruining endgame for the 99% who just want to play and have fun. Its a game, not a career.

What's stopping you from completing normal trials? It's the same exact CONTENT as the vet version, just easier. If vet is too hard, then stick to normal. You're still completing the same content.

Do you demand that single player game devs make their hardest difficulty beatable by 25% of players too? Harder difficulties are designed for players who want a challenge. You lose out on absolutely nothing by playing on lower difficulties.

If you want to beat a game on a harder difficulty, then get better. If you don't want to put the time in to get better, then just play on a lower difficulty. I really don't see what the problem is.

I DO expect a game to be completable without needing to read several theses in order to beat basic content, ESPECIALLY if its a single player game. Seems stupid for a company to deliberately exclude a majority of the player base.

As for what's stopping me completing normal mode? Nothing but boredom. The gap between faceroll stand in red and spam flurry to win and wtf vet mode is a biiiig jump in difficulty. And like the OP has suggested, its getting harder and harder to join in on vet trials as a newcomer.

The 1% and 99% was spoken figuratively as there is no real way of determing attempt/complete rates of the active player base. I selected those two numbers as I know they often occur in multi media when one group is over-represented by a fickle few.

ESO is NOT single player game - its an MMO

And this makes it acceptable to exclude a majority of its players from completing achievements?

You're not special enough to nerf everything so you can solo all the content for achievements sorry. If you don't like MMOs then I am sure there are other single player RPGs you could be playing instead?

BrightOblivion

All of these people are saying "Vet mode dungeons are so facerollingly easy and most people can do it in their sleep," and it's seriously starting to bug me. I mean, maybe it is for you and your premade group of friends on voice chat.

But as someone who pugs most of his daily pledges (and before you say "Get a guild," I'm in two of them for that purpose, but that doesn't mean they run all pledges with all 4 roles all the time), that's not what I see. I mean, sure, they can usually complete the non-dlc ones on hardmode, with Tempest Island and CoA2 being the major exceptions (can still do vet, but not hardmode).

When it comes to the DLC dungeons, though, it's a nightmare. I've attempted WGT, CoS, and RoM on vet 3 or 4 times each. I'm not talking "oh, we wiped, I'm done," mind you. I'm talking "We've died close to 10 times and gotten nowhere." Do you know how many times I've managed to complete them? Once each. With everyone over 200CP (and all 4 over 350 on last night's failed vet Cos run) on (I think) every run, once each.

I'm now close to CP370. I'm looking up guides to see what I might be missing, doing mechanics, trying to explain mechanics, and, with some reliability, pulling 15-20k dps as I try my hardest to stay out of the stupid. And still not getting there.

Folks, if this is "facerollingly easy," I would hate to see "stupidly hard." I'm not asking to be able to do hardmode with ease, or any of the related fancy achievements. I would just like to be able to reasonably expect to complete the dlc dungeon I spent nearly an hour trying to group for, without going through several circles of hell in the process, so that I can get the purple jewelry and monster helms I'm doing the dungeon for in the first place.

I haven't done any vet trials, so I can't speak to that. However, the concept of progression groups suggests a goal of working as a group to make progress and do better.

In dungeons, though, the goal is to get through it, beat the boss, and be done, repeating as needed for loot or pledges or what have you. Is it not? I mean, I haven't heard of a dungeon progression group. Have you?

bebynnag

BrightOblivion wrote: »

In dungeons, though, the goal is to get through it, beat the boss, and be done, repeating as needed for loot or pledges or what have you. Is it not? I mean, I haven't heard of a dungeon progression group. Have you?

but thats the thing though - all us OG's started by doing progression groups with dungeons,

but back then there was no point even attempting a trial until you were max level V12 for PC OG's, then V14 (max level at console launch) later V16

you had plenty of time to learn how to play a character too because you had to level EVERY character to get to max level the long way

people complain about grinding for monster sets now... HA! i ran wgt about 100 times before i even got a helm, and it was a light well fitted piece... before well fitted was any good! but you know what i still used it

PLEASE stop whining about how hard it it for new players to 'break into the trial community' & complete content that has already been nerfed so heavily its barley recognisable from when it was 1st introduced!

FakeFox

PvE should get more levels of difficulty to choose from. I personally would like more challenge, but i see how it is too hard for many players. So adding more levels of difficulty to dungeons would be a nice thing.

MasterSpatula

Blanco wrote: »

In all fairness, the main thing that was nerfed has been fun.

The sustain changes have slowed down the pace of gameplay, and forced one to do far more HAs than he/she would prefer.

I have to agree with this near-wholeheartedly. The content is pretty much just as doable (more of an increased PITA on my Stam characters, though), but it just takes longer and less time is spent doing fun stuff.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Yes

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Content should be clearable by at least 25% of the active population IMO. This 1% elitism garbage is ruining endgame for the 99% who just want to play and have fun. Its a game, not a career.

What's stopping you from completing normal trials? It's the same exact CONTENT as the vet version, just easier. If vet is too hard, then stick to normal. You're still completing the same content.

Do you demand that single player game devs make their hardest difficulty beatable by 25% of players too? Harder difficulties are designed for players who want a challenge. You lose out on absolutely nothing by playing on lower difficulties.

If you want to beat a game on a harder difficulty, then get better. If you don't want to put the time in to get better, then just play on a lower difficulty. I really don't see what the problem is.

I DO expect a game to be completable without needing to read several theses in order to beat basic content, ESPECIALLY if its a single player game. Seems stupid for a company to deliberately exclude a majority of the player base.

As for what's stopping me completing normal mode? Nothing but boredom. The gap between faceroll stand in red and spam flurry to win and wtf vet mode is a biiiig jump in difficulty. And like the OP has suggested, its getting harder and harder to join in on vet trials as a newcomer.

The 1% and 99% was spoken figuratively as there is no real way of determing attempt/complete rates of the active player base. I selected those two numbers as I know they often occur in multi media when one group is over-represented by a fickle few.

ESO is NOT single player game - its an MMO

And this makes it acceptable to exclude a majority of its players from completing achievements?

MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game

this means that you need to learn to play nice with others

this is something you either need to learn to do - or accept that you will never acquire a particular achivent

just because a bunch of 'lone wolves' want the pretty colour/skin/title/achievment/gamerscore or 'feel the need to complete every achievment in the game' doesnt mean all content should be nerfed into the ground so that they can solo it

FYI, I dont expect to solo it lol. Never did. Someone replied to a comment if mine asking if I think solo games should be achievable and I said yes. I'm aware this is an MMO and mostly play group content because its the most fun. I HAVE completed veteran trials a number of times and really enjoy it.

What I dont enjoy is the disparity of difficulty between the normal and vet modes. So in relation to the OP, I think this aspect of PvE needs to be looked into. Lessening the gap or improving the learning curve, which IMO actially means buffing normal mode and leaving vet alone.

crjs1

Yes

BrightOblivion wrote: »

All of these people are saying "Vet mode dungeons are so facerollingly easy and most people can do it in their sleep," and it's seriously starting to bug me. I mean, maybe it is for you and your premade group of friends on voice chat.

But as someone who pugs most of his daily pledges (and before you say "Get a guild," I'm in two of them for that purpose, but that doesn't mean they run all pledges with all 4 roles all the time), that's not what I see. I mean, sure, they can usually complete the non-dlc ones on hardmode, with Tempest Island and CoA2 being the major exceptions (can still do vet, but not hardmode).

When it comes to the DLC dungeons, though, it's a nightmare. I've attempted WGT, CoS, and RoM on vet 3 or 4 times each. I'm not talking "oh, we wiped, I'm done," mind you. I'm talking "We've died close to 10 times and gotten nowhere." Do you know how many times I've managed to complete them? Once each. With everyone over 200CP (and all 4 over 350 on last night's failed vet Cos run) on (I think) every run, once each.

I'm now close to CP370. I'm looking up guides to see what I might be missing, doing mechanics, trying to explain mechanics, and, with some reliability, pulling 15-20k dps as I try my hardest to stay out of the stupid. And still not getting there.

Folks, if this is "facerollingly easy," I would hate to see "stupidly hard." I'm not asking to be able to do hardmode with ease, or any of the related fancy achievements. I would just like to be able to reasonably expect to complete the dlc dungeon I spent nearly an hour trying to group for, without going through several circles of hell in the process, so that I can get the purple jewelry and monster helms I'm doing the dungeon for in the first place.

I haven't done any vet trials, so I can't speak to that. However, the concept of progression groups suggests a goal of working as a group to make progress and do better.

In dungeons, though, the goal is to get through it, beat the boss, and be done, repeating as needed for loot or pledges or what have you. Is it not? I mean, I haven't heard of a dungeon progression group. Have you?

I agree 100% All this vet content "too easy" stuff seems to come from a small minority of super high powered elitists. It's a game, one we have all paid for and continue to pay for with sub or DLC. All content should be accessible after a proper - not exhaustive - learning curve. There should be an expectation that the vast majority of players should be able to complete all content eventually not 5% of power players. Not all of us have hours and hours a day to play and study the thing. The game should cater to all players.

Jhalin

Yes

The adjustment for PvE content needs to be twofold. Overland content need a serious buff, both in health and in damage. Not everything should be horrendously deadly, but it should hurt enough that new players can actually learn "hey, standing in that red thing hurt me a lot" not "hey, I can stand in this red thing doing nothing and light attack these mobs to death with no worry!"

On the other hand, some veteran content needs to be adjusted. I'm glad they toned down the veteran DLC dungeon content. It's a good direction that, for the average player, will allow them to complete this content, and eventually master it. Those who are already stomping it will still be stomping it, though I would also like a hardmode that applies to the entire dungeon. The basic veteran dungeons are still very much a faceroll even for average players, and another boost in difficulty for those would be welcome if they came with some kind of bonus.

Veteran trials really just need to shift away from the dps race setup. There's not much that can be done to Crag trials since I don't believe ZoS has any interest in adding mechanics to pull away from the dps race/artificial difficulty aspects of them. The only thing that could really make them accessible to more than the top players is to lower bosses' health by a good chunk and at that point crag trials become a faceroll for those top players. I enjoy HoF and MoL because they are mechanically challenging in that you cannot just dps through mechanics (arguable for some bosses to be fair), but HoF is the one that really nailed the mechanics/dps balance. And vMA is a good example of PvE balance, where sustain is more important than raw damage numbers.

Nelson_Rebel

Yes

crjs1 wrote: »

BrightOblivion wrote: »

All of these people are saying "Vet mode dungeons are so facerollingly easy and most people can do it in their sleep," and it's seriously starting to bug me. I mean, maybe it is for you and your premade group of friends on voice chat.

But as someone who pugs most of his daily pledges (and before you say "Get a guild," I'm in two of them for that purpose, but that doesn't mean they run all pledges with all 4 roles all the time), that's not what I see. I mean, sure, they can usually complete the non-dlc ones on hardmode, with Tempest Island and CoA2 being the major exceptions (can still do vet, but not hardmode).

When it comes to the DLC dungeons, though, it's a nightmare. I've attempted WGT, CoS, and RoM on vet 3 or 4 times each. I'm not talking "oh, we wiped, I'm done," mind you. I'm talking "We've died close to 10 times and gotten nowhere." Do you know how many times I've managed to complete them? Once each. With everyone over 200CP (and all 4 over 350 on last night's failed vet Cos run) on (I think) every run, once each.

I'm now close to CP370. I'm looking up guides to see what I might be missing, doing mechanics, trying to explain mechanics, and, with some reliability, pulling 15-20k dps as I try my hardest to stay out of the stupid. And still not getting there.

Folks, if this is "facerollingly easy," I would hate to see "stupidly hard." I'm not asking to be able to do hardmode with ease, or any of the related fancy achievements. I would just like to be able to reasonably expect to complete the dlc dungeon I spent nearly an hour trying to group for, without going through several circles of hell in the process, so that I can get the purple jewelry and monster helms I'm doing the dungeon for in the first place.

I haven't done any vet trials, so I can't speak to that. However, the concept of progression groups suggests a goal of working as a group to make progress and do better.

In dungeons, though, the goal is to get through it, beat the boss, and be done, repeating as needed for loot or pledges or what have you. Is it not? I mean, I haven't heard of a dungeon progression group. Have you?

I agree 100% All this vet content "too easy" stuff seems to come from a small minority of super high powered elitists. It's a game, one we have all paid for and continue to pay for with sub or DLC. All content should be accessible after a proper - not exhaustive - learning curve. There should be an expectation that the vast majority of players should be able to complete all content eventually not 5% of power players. Not all of us have hours and hours a day to play and study the thing. The game should cater to all players.

Exactly. Currently this content is only catering to a small percentage of elitists. I don't think a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game should cater to the smallest crowd of Try Hards.


All endgame content should be geared towards players that at least have max level CP and have a decent understanding of mechanics. Not spend months of wasting effort again and again to
complete some damn game achievement. It's such an outdated notion.

Ep1kMalware

In all seriousness this game doesn't even have mechanics. Take vmol, what's the major mechanic in vmol? Standing still!? Oh, ur right, they added other mechanics, like counting down from 5, or 'do these colors match'? Telling you when to take breaks from standing still.

This game has no progression system, it's stagnate. All they do is make you refarm the same old content while make it more tedious, and more annoying than the last time you farmed it.

Norn

No

Seriously such a pointless thread. CP300s trying to balance the game because they have hard time clearing dungeons in PUG runs with their suboptimal builds and no understanding of the roles they fill in. And yet they blame other people for being elitists for doing things the correct way.

Do you wanna know who actually uses dungeon finder? People that are not good enough to make it into proper guilds(and no I'm not talking about top end raiding guilds, there are many social-PVE-dungeon focused guilds out there) and have failed to make any friends in game during the time they've played it. By using that tool you are already limiting yourself into certain group of people, don't expect much from it. Have patience, get experience, make friends. Then you will reflect upon yourself and realize you made a fool of yourself by saying dungeons were hard.

I see people mentioning stuff like "we paid money too". You should just understand that money only grants you access. You're not entitled to anything. If you still can't achieve certain things after putting in considerable amount of time then it's nothing but your own fault.
And for those people with busy real life schedule, you can't honestly be thinking that you're gonna come at home at 8PM, put only 1 hour at best into this game and then go to sleep and still expect to be good at it because in your mind you've been playing this game for 3 months, while in reality you barely put 100 hours which is basically nothing compared to other people.

BrightOblivion

Norn wrote: »

Do you wanna know who actually uses dungeon finder? People that are not good enough to make it into proper guilds(and no I'm not talking about top end raiding guilds, there are many social-PVE-dungeon focused guilds out there) and have failed to make any friends in game during the time they've played it.

As I said, I'm in not one social-PVE-dungeon focused guild, but two. Friendly Dungeon Runners and Lone Wolf Help, if you want to get specific, and both are nearly full to capacity with all sorts of people. The thing is, as I said, not everyone runs all 4 roles for all dungeons at all times. So, most of the time, I'm using groupfinder to look for at least one spot. Not because I don't have friends. Not because I'm a scrub. But because that's what's available when I'm doing pledges throughout the day. I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

At CP370, with other reasonably geared and intelligent CP350-plus people who know their roles, one should be able to, as I said, reasonably expect to be able to complete the DLC dungeons on veteran difficulty, even if that group came about through groupfinder and isn't using voice chat. Not on hardmode, necessarily, but definitely on regular veteran. If that's not the case, it's either the fault of the in-game training up to that point (and I don't necessarily dispute that), or the mechanics of the dungeon, and possibly a bit of both. I mean, you have two levers you can pull. You can fix the caliber of people going in, or change the content they go into. Which is more likely to be pulled and easier to control? That being said, three of the main points almost every group I've been in has crashed and burned at have experienced changes in one form or another in this last patch, so I'll reserve judgement until I've had time to see how much difference that makes.

Regarding veteran trials, as I swear I already said, I haven't done them, I don't have experience with them, so I won't comment one way or the other. And have not, beyond saying that progression groups for them, with their assumed goals of, well, progression, make them a different thing.

And @puffytheslayer I get that it was so much worse way back when. And I'm glad I wasn't there for it, because I would have probably quit, or given it one look, laughed, and walked away. I mean, you actually stuck around through 100 vet WGT runs and got one off-trait wrong-weight monster helm, and you're okay with that? However, just because you had to walk five miles through hip-deep snow uphill both ways and eat bugs to survive doesn't mean people don't feel like they're currently walking through mud up to at least our ankles and eating "meatloaf surprise." Just because something's better than it was doesn't mean that it's "good," or that it couldn't be better. Hells, most of the RNG in this game falls under that category. It also doesn't mean that, if one mentioned something like starting a dungeon progression group, they wouldn't get laughed at, particularly by those "OGs" you so fondly refer to.

The way things were is rarely a decent excuse to disagree or balk at change. Regardless of how things were once upon a time, this is not then, but now. And in the now, dungeons, their groups, and the groups' goals are what they are. One can bemoan it and "back in my day..." all day long, but it's probably not going to change a single, solitary thing.

LoganEso

Yes

500cp, 6 months of playing, almost every day. 5 guilds since 1st month. Finished 3/4 of PvE content. I would agree that most of it is too hard. Yes, you can finish anything with a good group, but there are hard to find. I'm not going to beg experienced players, or kick newbies every time I wan't to play. 90% of players do not have a "good group" available at a whim. It's PITA.

This should be fun for MOST players, not only for the top 15% who can study 24/7 all of the mechanics and perfect rotations. I had to study a lot more than I wanted to. Not having a lot of fun. I have job for working that hard. It all became a bit boring. So much work for so little fun time. I'll stick for a couple of months, but eventually I'll go on a long brake..

If elitists think it's too easy, they can handicap themselves and finish content without gear or something, and brag about that. All happy.

bebynnag

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

crjs1 wrote: »

BrightOblivion wrote: »

All of these people are saying "Vet mode dungeons are so facerollingly easy and most people can do it in their sleep," and it's seriously starting to bug me. I mean, maybe it is for you and your premade group of friends on voice chat.

But as someone who pugs most of his daily pledges (and before you say "Get a guild," I'm in two of them for that purpose, but that doesn't mean they run all pledges with all 4 roles all the time), that's not what I see. I mean, sure, they can usually complete the non-dlc ones on hardmode, with Tempest Island and CoA2 being the major exceptions (can still do vet, but not hardmode).

When it comes to the DLC dungeons, though, it's a nightmare. I've attempted WGT, CoS, and RoM on vet 3 or 4 times each. I'm not talking "oh, we wiped, I'm done," mind you. I'm talking "We've died close to 10 times and gotten nowhere." Do you know how many times I've managed to complete them? Once each. With everyone over 200CP (and all 4 over 350 on last night's failed vet Cos run) on (I think) every run, once each.

I'm now close to CP370. I'm looking up guides to see what I might be missing, doing mechanics, trying to explain mechanics, and, with some reliability, pulling 15-20k dps as I try my hardest to stay out of the stupid. And still not getting there.

Folks, if this is "facerollingly easy," I would hate to see "stupidly hard." I'm not asking to be able to do hardmode with ease, or any of the related fancy achievements. I would just like to be able to reasonably expect to complete the dlc dungeon I spent nearly an hour trying to group for, without going through several circles of hell in the process, so that I can get the purple jewelry and monster helms I'm doing the dungeon for in the first place.

I haven't done any vet trials, so I can't speak to that. However, the concept of progression groups suggests a goal of working as a group to make progress and do better.

In dungeons, though, the goal is to get through it, beat the boss, and be done, repeating as needed for loot or pledges or what have you. Is it not? I mean, I haven't heard of a dungeon progression group. Have you?

I agree 100% All this vet content "too easy" stuff seems to come from a small minority of super high powered elitists. It's a game, one we have all paid for and continue to pay for with sub or DLC. All content should be accessible after a proper - not exhaustive - learning curve. There should be an expectation that the vast majority of players should be able to complete all content eventually not 5% of power players. Not all of us have hours and hours a day to play and study the thing. The game should cater to all players.

Exactly. Currently this content is only catering to a small percentage of elitists. I don't think a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game should cater to the smallest crowd of Try Hards.


All endgame content should be geared towards players that at least have max level CP and have a decent understanding of mechanics. Not spend months of wasting effort again and again to
complete some damn game achievement. It's such an outdated notion.

it already is geared this way (in fact you dont even need max CP)

when the top players talk about their meta builds - they are competing with other top players for high leader board scores.

if all you are interested in is a completion, you can achieve that without running meta

TBC i am not criticising the meta builds they work amazingly, and when you have a solid team who are all also running the meta build you get outstanding results

but people need to understand you CAN complete content without running meta build, and without having the perfect rotation

i am 36 years old, my eye sight is bad, my reaction times are slow, i have crippling arthritis in both of my hands, i battle with a bunch more health prooblems (that i will not state here) but DO effect my ability to play the game (all games)

i have completed VMA on all 10 of my DD's (1 mag 1 stam of each class) and my healer(wealing her full healing spec), and my dk tank (in full tank gear) is slowly working through it (i may put tremorscale on for ease) and i will drag my argonian warden tank tail through it kicking and screaming

• i can do all the vet dungeons on hard mode,
• i can do all the craglorn trials vet hard mode,
• i was progressing through maw (i dont have a team any more & im sick of trying to form one)
• ive done HoF normal - (i dont have a team any more & im sick of trying to form one for vet)

i struggle with some characters more than others - i dont claim to be an expert, my roatation is AWFUL, i follow meta guides these days - but thats just to save myself time trying to kit out 13 toons through personal trial & error each patch is exhausting

bebynnag

BrightOblivion wrote: »

Norn wrote: »

Do you wanna know who actually uses dungeon finder? People that are not good enough to make it into proper guilds(and no I'm not talking about top end raiding guilds, there are many social-PVE-dungeon focused guilds out there) and have failed to make any friends in game during the time they've played it.

As I said, I'm in not one social-PVE-dungeon focused guild, but two. Friendly Dungeon Runners and Lone Wolf Help, if you want to get specific, and both are nearly full to capacity with all sorts of people. The thing is, as I said, not everyone runs all 4 roles for all dungeons at all times. So, most of the time, I'm using groupfinder to look for at least one spot. Not because I don't have friends. Not because I'm a scrub. But because that's what's available when I'm doing pledges throughout the day. I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

At CP370, with other reasonably geared and intelligent CP350-plus people who know their roles, one should be able to, as I said, reasonably expect to be able to complete the DLC dungeons on veteran difficulty, even if that group came about through groupfinder and isn't using voice chat. Not on hardmode, necessarily, but definitely on regular veteran. If that's not the case, it's either the fault of the in-game training up to that point (and I don't necessarily dispute that), or the mechanics of the dungeon, and possibly a bit of both. I mean, you have two levers you can pull. You can fix the caliber of people going in, or change the content they go into. Which is more likely to be pulled and easier to control? That being said, three of the main points almost every group I've been in has crashed and burned at have experienced changes in one form or another in this last patch, so I'll reserve judgement until I've had time to see how much difference that makes.

Regarding veteran trials, as I swear I already said, I haven't done them, I don't have experience with them, so I won't comment one way or the other. And have not, beyond saying that progression groups for them, with their assumed goals of, well, progression, make them a different thing.

And @puffytheslayer I get that it was so much worse way back when. And I'm glad I wasn't there for it, because I would have probably quit, or given it one look, laughed, and walked away. I mean, you actually stuck around through 100 vet WGT runs and got one off-trait wrong-weight monster helm, and you're okay with that? However, just because you had to walk five miles through hip-deep snow uphill both ways and eat bugs to survive doesn't mean people don't feel like they're currently walking through mud up to at least our ankles and eating "meatloaf surprise." Just because something's better than it was doesn't mean that it's "good," or that it couldn't be better. Hells, most of the RNG in this game falls under that category. It also doesn't mean that, if one mentioned something like starting a dungeon progression group, they wouldn't get laughed at, particularly by those "OGs" you so fondly refer to.

The way things were is rarely a decent excuse to disagree or balk at change. Regardless of how things were once upon a time, this is not then, but now. And in the now, dungeons, their groups, and the groups' goals are what they are. One can bemoan it and "back in my day..." all day long, but it's probably not going to change a single, solitary thing.

you want to know why i stuck through 100 runs of vWGT? because i was running the content with people i liked, and guess what - having fun doing it, i was taught what i needed to tdo, i then passed that knowledge on to others. thats how the community used to work

if your worried us OG's might laugh at you for wanting to form a dungeon progression group, you really shouldn't.
i know so many OGs who run guilds that exist for that very reason. but if you wanted your very own 4 person team - and you wanted to learn & progress through the content by yourselfve you should totally look to other new players & ignore any one who laughs at you for doing that

your lovley little tale about snow & mud was nice & all - but you kind of missed the point of my comment
you see before all the changes to make leveling and farming gear easier,
monster sets were rare, and anyone that did have them were usually running bad traits (a light helm on a mag sorc overload build in VMA wasnt a bad weight btw!)
and yet those people were able to complete all of the vet content in the game before it was nerfed & when they had less CP than they do now

did these people reach this level of competncy by posting threads on the forum whining becuase drop rates were annoying? or content was too hard? no these people attained this level of competency through sheer bloody-mindedness

LoganEso

Yes

puffytheslayer wrote: »

• i can do all the vet dungeons on hard mode,
• i can do all the craglorn trials vet hard mode,
• i was progressing through maw (i dont have a team any more & im sick of trying to form one)
• ive done HoF normal - (i dont have a team any more & im sick of trying to form one for vet)

i struggle with some characters more than others - i dont claim to be an expert, my roatation is AWFUL, i follow meta guides these days - but thats just to save myself time trying to kit out 13 toons through personal trial & error each patch is exhausting

This makes you at least top 10%. You should tell us how long it took you to reach this level. 2 years, more? Everyday 4h+? That just proves my point - way too hard to get to that PvE level, and you're not even an expert as you claim. There are exceptions of course but my concern is the majority of players not the top/bottom 10%.
I also don't believe your rotation is awful, you probably compare yourself with the top 5% (elite). If you miss a shot every now and then it does not make it bad, only _not perfect_.

I'm 37. Wear glasses, bad eyesight. I've yet to finish vMA. Died 150 times there so far (yes, I'm counting), and it will take me at least 150 more to finish it. My rotation is not bad, but not the best either. Also not an expert I just _try to_ copy what elitists do. I even had a _personal trainer_ elitist to help me with my rotation. My gear is the best money can buy +illambris.
Still, top single player content is extremely hard for me (eg vMA, with mag sorc, knowing the mechanics).
I consider myself a medium grade gamer, although I was a very good FPS player in my time.

puffytheslayer wrote: »

ive done HoF normal - (i dont have a team any more & im sick of trying to form one for vet)

Exactly. If you don't have _the best_ team, forget it. If you can't find/form one, you're just like 80% of the rest of us.

At this moment the game is fun (not struggle) only for the top 20% of groups. This number should be at least 40%.

bebynnag

LoganEso wrote: »

puffytheslayer wrote: »

• i can do all the vet dungeons on hard mode,
• i can do all the craglorn trials vet hard mode,
• i was progressing through maw (i dont have a team any more & im sick of trying to form one)
• ive done HoF normal - (i dont have a team any more & im sick of trying to form one for vet)

i struggle with some characters more than others - i dont claim to be an expert, my roatation is AWFUL, i follow meta guides these days - but thats just to save myself time trying to kit out 13 toons through personal trial & error each patch is exhausting

This makes you at least top 10%. You should tell us how long it took you to reach this level. 2 years, more? Everyday 4h+? That just proves my point - way too hard to get to that PvE level, and you're not even an expert as you claim. There are exceptions of course but my concern is the majority of players not the top/bottom 10%.
I also don't believe your rotation is awful, you probably compare yourself with the top 5% (elite). If you miss a shot every now and then it does not make it bad, only _not perfect_.

I'm 37. Wear glasses, bad eyesight. I've yet to finish vMA. Died 150 times there so far (yes, I'm counting), and it will take me at least 150 more to finish it. My rotation is not bad, but not the best either. Also not an expert I just _try to_ copy what elitists do. I even had a _personal trainer_ elitist to help me with my rotation. My gear is the best money can buy +illambris.
Still, top single player content is extremely hard for me (eg vMA, with mag sorc, knowing the mechanics).
I consider myself a medium grade gamer, although I was a very good FPS player in my time.

puffytheslayer wrote: »

ive done HoF normal - (i dont have a team any more & im sick of trying to form one for vet)

Exactly. If you don't have _the best_ team, forget it. If you can't find/form one, you're just like 80% of the rest of us.

At this moment the game is fun (not struggle) only for the top 20% of groups. This number should be at least 40%.

you think im in the top 10% of players.... OMG SQEEEEEEEEL


this is the best moment of my life EVER...

(im being sarcastic hanging out on the set of the actual T.A.R.D.I.S. with the 10th Doctor & The master was way cooler)

seriously though please read my post again & see if you can see what you missed

hint - you do not need to run meta or be an amazing player to complete the content

my rotation sucks,
my recource managements sucks on DPS dummies, (slightly better in actual fights)

but

my understanding of the game & its limited mechanics is good enough to complete the content,
my understanding of my characters & their builds is good enough to complete the content

the reason i cant be arsed to find 11 other people to run a vet trial with is actually none of your buiness but it is not the reason you assume it to be

and so what if i have invested more time into the game than you? i have 13 max level characters, ive deleted at least twice as many max level charcaters, i spend hours farmin for the materials i need to make armour/food/potions for said characters, countles days have been whittled away helping new/returning players. ive spent months at a time in PVP.
doesnt change the fact that YOU DO NOT NEED TO RUN META OR NERF THE CONTENT so the majority can play it
what actually need to happen is
zos need to incorporate better combat tutorials into the game!

also can you please choose an a 'top' elite percentage, you keep swapping around everything from 1% to 20% its rather annoying & confusing

LoganEso

Yes

puffytheslayer wrote: »

YOU DO NOT NEED TO RUN META OR NERF THE CONTENT so the majority can play it...

Aside from your frustrated-teenage-like tone, I say this statement is wrong. Majority cannot play this game as much as they should/could. You're concentrated on the top half (maybe even less) players and not ALL of the players. There are much more players that don't even know that animation cancelling exists than the ones that do. You are missing the whole point. You're too much into the game to notice.

Also someone with so much experience is bound to say "it's easy", even though it's clearly not.
And yes of course you are an elitist: in the top 10% experience-wise, for sure.

puffytheslayer wrote: »

hint - you do not need to run meta or be an amazing player to complete the content

As you don't like percentages I'll try to explain in plain text.
To clear this "hint" issue of yours, we need to better define "meta" and "amazing". In my non-elitist/normal-player opinion anyone who finishes vMA is an amazing player! Get it? I know tons of better players than me who will probably never finish vMA. Some even left the game altogether because of the vMA. This is a well known fact. Don't just discard it.
For you as the _elite_experienced_ amazing is someone who can finish vMA without deaths and naked or with some similar handicap. That is in fact _insane_ level of player, not amazing. But you don't see this as you've been playing for ages and are used to meet _insane_ level players. However there are less than 100 of all thousands of active players that are _insane_ level.

puffytheslayer wrote: »

also can you please choose an a 'top' elite percentage, you keep swapping around everything from 1% to 20% its rather annoying & confusing

I wrote context appropriate percentage. PvE top 10% is not the same as game top 10% or experience top 10%.
Also this is a completely non-issue - who cares as long as the point is explained.
Although based on your writings, I suspect you are too narrow minded to listen to any reason other than your own, as you hook on non-issues like this.

Again. The point is MAJORITY. I would like to see MAJORITY to have fun. As a _medium_ranker_ (part of the majority) I don't want to play this game 2 painstakingly-difficult years to be able to reach 90% of the content.