PvE content difficulty Relative to Nerfs lately. Should it be adjusted?

MLGProPlayer

No

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

As some people already mentioned, the valiant attempt to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" failed miserably. The ceiling can still pull 40-50k DPS but the floor struggles to get 10-15k. Some work to squeeze out every drop of DPS and some don't even understand the concept of a rotation. It's hard to balance content for both of those groups.

They shouldn't be trying to balance content for everyone. Not everyone should be able to complete all content on vet. That's why we have two difficulty settings in this game. Vet should be designed for those players willing to learn the mechanics and put time into perfecting a build and rotation.

so less than 2% of the population having a chance is good for you?


The issue with this is that, as I said before, the content isn't even geared towards being hard. It's bloody impossible for those who haven't spent months performing the trials. Such as MaW and HoF

Hell even the Craglorn Vet trials don't have more than 3% of completions

There are plenty of noob guilds that run and complete vet trials regularly (they only require 15-20k DPS). You don't need to practice for months to clear them. That's only if you want to get on leader boards.

The main reason why most people don't participate in trials is that organising a group of 12 people is a pain in the ass. The actual content isn't that hard.

Ah but this is the Crux Of my point.


There are NO newer guilds or even average ones completing this content anymore.

Yes there are? I am a part of or have friends in at least 4 such guilds...

You've been around since the game launched friend on console.


Your "new" guilds are just old players that brought remnants of other old playes into it.

I started playing exactly 1 year ago (I'm on PC).

Who cares when the guild was created? You know that old guilds accept new members, right? There are dozens of casual trials guilds. Have you tried looking for one?

Nelson_Rebel

Yes

Vaoh wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Damage in Horns of the Reach is actually going to be higher than it was in Homestead.

ZOS nerfed sustain and therefore hurt DPS in Morrowind, but the new trait/set changes in HotR have bumped damage up above what it was in Homestead despite the tougher sustain.

You'll likely see a lot more groups completing trials because of this.

Any proof of this damage comparison?

I find that hard to believe. The CP system was nerfed 50% in percentage bonuses alone. Not to mention class specific nerfs and overall blanket nerfs.

I know sets 1-4 pieces are getting slightly buffed and some mundus stones. But not enough to bring it back to homestead damage

The CP system wasn't nerfed 50% in damage bonuses at all..... they did a few different things to the CP system. They removed the reduced cost stars, and reduced the recovery and Elemental Expert+Mighty CP. However, they made it so CP300 now granted all 20% of the Max Stat buffs that CP level gives you and made it so there were greater early gains/diminishing returns in the CP system as well as adding Master-At-Arms.

Thanks to these changes we didn't lose much damage at all from the CP system (pretty sure we gained some damage but idk about that). Rather sustain took a big hit.

Next patch the Max Stat and Critical Rating set bonuses are getting massive buffs as well as Mother's Sorrow. I encourage you to look up the DPS parses of people on PTS or hop on the PTS yourself. The numbers people are putting out have naturally gone way up. Sustain hasn't changed but the damage you deal has increased quite a lot (especially in raids where Aggressive Warhorns buff your inflated HotR Critical ratings).

Interesting, I'll give it a look


But I don't believe that it'll jumpstart trials guilds like before.


And I still hold fast that PvE content needs to be looked into. Because there is just not enough interest in it

Betsararie

No

Very simply as soon as a game starts balancing content for low-level players in the playerbase instead of high-level players, that is when the game ceases being great.

All content is too easy, so unskilled players are able to beat it all and then quickly loose interest in the game and move onto the next Xbox fad.

Skilled players will leave the game altogether in favor of a game that actually has challenging and engaging gameplay.

That is how you ruin a game.

Nelson_Rebel

Yes

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

As some people already mentioned, the valiant attempt to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" failed miserably. The ceiling can still pull 40-50k DPS but the floor struggles to get 10-15k. Some work to squeeze out every drop of DPS and some don't even understand the concept of a rotation. It's hard to balance content for both of those groups.

They shouldn't be trying to balance content for everyone. Not everyone should be able to complete all content on vet. That's why we have two difficulty settings in this game. Vet should be designed for those players willing to learn the mechanics and put time into perfecting a build and rotation.

so less than 2% of the population having a chance is good for you?


The issue with this is that, as I said before, the content isn't even geared towards being hard. It's bloody impossible for those who haven't spent months performing the trials. Such as MaW and HoF

Hell even the Craglorn Vet trials don't have more than 3% of completions

There are plenty of noob guilds that run and complete vet trials regularly (they only require 15-20k DPS). You don't need to practice for months to clear them. That's only if you want to get on leader boards.

The main reason why most people don't participate in trials is that organising a group of 12 people is a pain in the ass. The actual content isn't that hard.

Ah but this is the Crux Of my point.


There are NO newer guilds or even average ones completing this content anymore.

Yes there are? I am a part of or have friends in at least 4 such guilds...

You've been around since the game launched friend on console.


Your "new" guilds are just old players that brought remnants of other old playes into it.

I started playing exactly 1 year ago (I'm on PC).

Who cares when the guild was created? There are dozens of casual trials guilds. Have you tried looking for one?

The only ones left are elitist.


No casual guilds have done any recruiting, no one wants to do trials.


I have completiona for most of the Vet trials since 2014 when the game launched on console.


Which is how I know you also play on Ps4, as I've seen your gamer tag.

Nelson_Rebel

Yes

Blanco wrote: »

Very simply as soon as a game starts balancing content for low-level players in the playerbase instead of high-level players, that is when the game ceasing being great.

All content is too easy, so unskilled players are able to beat it all and then quickly loose interest in the game and move onto the next Xbox fad.

Skilled players will leave the game altogether in favor of a game that actually has challenging and engaging gameplay.

That is how you ruin a game.

The game is emptying, The playerbase has been declining with any interest in the endgame environment.


Catering to less than 2% is how you lose people and money.


I never said make it stupid easy, That would be ridiculous. Your statement is in direct contradiction to factual numbers

MLGProPlayer

No

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

As some people already mentioned, the valiant attempt to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" failed miserably. The ceiling can still pull 40-50k DPS but the floor struggles to get 10-15k. Some work to squeeze out every drop of DPS and some don't even understand the concept of a rotation. It's hard to balance content for both of those groups.

They shouldn't be trying to balance content for everyone. Not everyone should be able to complete all content on vet. That's why we have two difficulty settings in this game. Vet should be designed for those players willing to learn the mechanics and put time into perfecting a build and rotation.

so less than 2% of the population having a chance is good for you?


The issue with this is that, as I said before, the content isn't even geared towards being hard. It's bloody impossible for those who haven't spent months performing the trials. Such as MaW and HoF

Hell even the Craglorn Vet trials don't have more than 3% of completions

There are plenty of noob guilds that run and complete vet trials regularly (they only require 15-20k DPS). You don't need to practice for months to clear them. That's only if you want to get on leader boards.

The main reason why most people don't participate in trials is that organising a group of 12 people is a pain in the ass. The actual content isn't that hard.

Ah but this is the Crux Of my point.


There are NO newer guilds or even average ones completing this content anymore.

Yes there are? I am a part of or have friends in at least 4 such guilds...

You've been around since the game launched friend on console.


Your "new" guilds are just old players that brought remnants of other old playes into it.

I started playing exactly 1 year ago (I'm on PC).

Who cares when the guild was created? There are dozens of casual trials guilds. Have you tried looking for one?

The only ones left are elitist.


No casual guilds have done any recruiting, no one wants to do trials.


I have completiona for most of the Vet trials since 2014 when the game launched on console.


Which is how I know you also play on Ps4, as I've seen your gamer tag.

I've never touched a Playstation console in my life, so obviously you're confusing me for someone else. It's a common handle that people use.

And again, I highly doubt your claims that there are no casual trials guilds on PS4, unless the console population is completely dead (which judging by the PS Store sales of ESO+, it obviously isn't). Look harder is all I can tell you.

Nelson_Rebel

Yes

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

As some people already mentioned, the valiant attempt to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" failed miserably. The ceiling can still pull 40-50k DPS but the floor struggles to get 10-15k. Some work to squeeze out every drop of DPS and some don't even understand the concept of a rotation. It's hard to balance content for both of those groups.

They shouldn't be trying to balance content for everyone. Not everyone should be able to complete all content on vet. That's why we have two difficulty settings in this game. Vet should be designed for those players willing to learn the mechanics and put time into perfecting a build and rotation.

so less than 2% of the population having a chance is good for you?


The issue with this is that, as I said before, the content isn't even geared towards being hard. It's bloody impossible for those who haven't spent months performing the trials. Such as MaW and HoF

Hell even the Craglorn Vet trials don't have more than 3% of completions

There are plenty of noob guilds that run and complete vet trials regularly (they only require 15-20k DPS). You don't need to practice for months to clear them. That's only if you want to get on leader boards.

The main reason why most people don't participate in trials is that organising a group of 12 people is a pain in the ass. The actual content isn't that hard.

Ah but this is the Crux Of my point.


There are NO newer guilds or even average ones completing this content anymore.

Yes there are? I am a part of or have friends in at least 4 such guilds...

You've been around since the game launched friend on console.


Your "new" guilds are just old players that brought remnants of other old playes into it.

I started playing exactly 1 year ago (I'm on PC).

Who cares when the guild was created? There are dozens of casual trials guilds. Have you tried looking for one?

The only ones left are elitist.


No casual guilds have done any recruiting, no one wants to do trials.


I have completiona for most of the Vet trials since 2014 when the game launched on console.


Which is how I know you also play on Ps4, as I've seen your gamer tag.

I've never touched a Playstation console in my life, so obviously you're confusing me for someone else. It's a common handle that people use.

And again, I highly doubt your claims that there are no casual trials guilds on PS4, unless the console population is completely dead (which judging by the PS Store sales of ESO+, it obviously isn't). Look harder is all I can tell you.

Then the tag is nearly identical lol but regardless


I can tell you from my experiences doing vet trials is that there are few to none besides the elite ones

If you don't believe me that's fine, your free to log in and see for yourself. But I play long enough to notice the difference from now and from all previous patches.

The situation is not healthy

Royaji

No

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

As some people already mentioned, the valiant attempt to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" failed miserably. The ceiling can still pull 40-50k DPS but the floor struggles to get 10-15k. Some work to squeeze out every drop of DPS and some don't even understand the concept of a rotation. It's hard to balance content for both of those groups.

They shouldn't be trying to balance content for everyone. Not everyone should be able to complete all content on vet. That's why we have two difficulty settings in this game. Vet should be designed for those players willing to learn the mechanics and put time into perfecting a build and rotation.

so less than 2% of the population having a chance is good for you?


The issue with this is that, as I said before, the content isn't even geared towards being hard. It's bloody impossible for those who haven't spent months performing the trials. Such as MaW and HoF

Hell even the Craglorn Vet trials don't have more than 3% of completions

There are plenty of noob guilds that run and complete vet trials regularly (they only require 15-20k DPS). You don't need to practice for months to clear them. That's only if you want to get on leader boards.

The main reason why most people don't participate in trials is that organising a group of 12 people is a pain in the ass. The actual content isn't that hard.

Ah but this is the Crux Of my point.


There are NO newer guilds or even average ones completing this content anymore.

Yes there are? I am a part of or have friends in at least 4 such guilds...

You've been around since the game launched friend on console.


Your "new" guilds are just old players that brought remnants of other old playes into it.

I started playing exactly 1 year ago (I'm on PC).

Who cares when the guild was created? There are dozens of casual trials guilds. Have you tried looking for one?

The only ones left are elitist.


No casual guilds have done any recruiting, no one wants to do trials.


I have completiona for most of the Vet trials since 2014 when the game launched on console.


Which is how I know you also play on Ps4, as I've seen your gamer tag.

Are you sure about that? I've jsut skimmed through both EU and NA recruting forums and saw at least 3 casual/progression guilds recruting for trials.

At this point it seems you do not want to do anything yourself and look for a guild but wait for ZOS to just nerf the content to cater to you and your no-skill PUG runs...

Nelson_Rebel

Yes

Royaji wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

As some people already mentioned, the valiant attempt to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" failed miserably. The ceiling can still pull 40-50k DPS but the floor struggles to get 10-15k. Some work to squeeze out every drop of DPS and some don't even understand the concept of a rotation. It's hard to balance content for both of those groups.

They shouldn't be trying to balance content for everyone. Not everyone should be able to complete all content on vet. That's why we have two difficulty settings in this game. Vet should be designed for those players willing to learn the mechanics and put time into perfecting a build and rotation.

so less than 2% of the population having a chance is good for you?


The issue with this is that, as I said before, the content isn't even geared towards being hard. It's bloody impossible for those who haven't spent months performing the trials. Such as MaW and HoF

Hell even the Craglorn Vet trials don't have more than 3% of completions

There are plenty of noob guilds that run and complete vet trials regularly (they only require 15-20k DPS). You don't need to practice for months to clear them. That's only if you want to get on leader boards.

The main reason why most people don't participate in trials is that organising a group of 12 people is a pain in the ass. The actual content isn't that hard.

Ah but this is the Crux Of my point.


There are NO newer guilds or even average ones completing this content anymore.

Yes there are? I am a part of or have friends in at least 4 such guilds...

You've been around since the game launched friend on console.


Your "new" guilds are just old players that brought remnants of other old playes into it.

I started playing exactly 1 year ago (I'm on PC).

Who cares when the guild was created? There are dozens of casual trials guilds. Have you tried looking for one?

The only ones left are elitist.


No casual guilds have done any recruiting, no one wants to do trials.


I have completiona for most of the Vet trials since 2014 when the game launched on console.


Which is how I know you also play on Ps4, as I've seen your gamer tag.

Are you sure about that? I've jsut skimmed through both EU and NA recruting forums and saw at least 3 casual/progression guilds recruting for trials.

At this point it seems you do not want to do anything yourself and look for a guild but wait for ZOS to just nerf the content to cater to you and your no-skill PUG runs...

Well 1 no proof of that


And 2 personal insults based on your negative attitude and elitist bias clearly shows that having a conversation with you is worthless and so are you and your statements.

Continuing any meaningful discussion with you is no longer possible. Buh Bye.

Royaji

No

Yep, right on point. Participation rewards and bosses throwing butterflies at you. And it seemed like such a nice post for constructive discussion.

Vaoh

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Damage in Horns of the Reach is actually going to be higher than it was in Homestead.

ZOS nerfed sustain and therefore hurt DPS in Morrowind, but the new trait/set changes in HotR have bumped damage up above what it was in Homestead despite the tougher sustain.

You'll likely see a lot more groups completing trials because of this.

Any proof of this damage comparison?

I find that hard to believe. The CP system was nerfed 50% in percentage bonuses alone. Not to mention class specific nerfs and overall blanket nerfs.

I know sets 1-4 pieces are getting slightly buffed and some mundus stones. But not enough to bring it back to homestead damage

The CP system wasn't nerfed 50% in damage bonuses at all..... they did a few different things to the CP system. They removed the reduced cost stars, and reduced the recovery and Elemental Expert+Mighty CP. However, they made it so CP300 now granted all 20% of the Max Stat buffs that CP level gives you and made it so there were greater early gains/diminishing returns in the CP system as well as adding Master-At-Arms.

Thanks to these changes we didn't lose much damage at all from the CP system (pretty sure we gained some damage but idk about that). Rather sustain took a big hit.

Next patch the Max Stat and Critical Rating set bonuses are getting massive buffs as well as Mother's Sorrow. I encourage you to look up the DPS parses of people on PTS or hop on the PTS yourself. The numbers people are putting out have naturally gone way up. Sustain hasn't changed but the damage you deal has increased quite a lot (especially in raids where Aggressive Warhorns buff your inflated HotR Critical ratings).

Interesting, I'll give it a look


But I don't believe that it'll jumpstart trials guilds like before.


And I still hold fast that PvE content needs to be looked into. Because there is just not enough interest in it

Oh believe me I agree with you. It won't jumpstart new guilds. In terms of endgame PvE, these changes will mainly help out the progression groups that struggle to get through a trial like vMoL by increasing their group DPS. The groups that already can complete trials will get much stronger and those who are close will complete them much easier. Also 600K vMA scores will rise, Ruins of Mazzatun HM/Cradle of Shadows HM will probably become *easy* for good groups because with these buffs they can probably burn those bosses and skip their mechanics now..... stuff like this. Damage has gone up.

If ZOS actually cared about PvE endgame and wanted to incentivize running endgame PvE they'd have to provide meaningful rewards again. BoE gear = huge incentive+Gold to make up for the massive net gold loss caused by running Vet trials. Endgame PvE took an enormous population hit the moment that BoE gear was taken away from Vet trials.

Nelson_Rebel

Yes

Royaji wrote: »

Yep, right on point. Participation rewards and bosses throwing butterflies at you. And it seemed like such a nice post for constructive discussion.

First off I have all Craglorn Vet completions On 1 dps, 1 tank, and 1 healer

You're just being a ***. And I have no desire to have a discussion with anyone who's first thought to say is "pug trial runner no-skill" l2p elitist type attitude


You people are what kill games and any enjoyment in them. Now I'm done. Begone

Betsararie

No

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Very simply as soon as a game starts balancing content for low-level players in the playerbase instead of high-level players, that is when the game ceasing being great.

All content is too easy, so unskilled players are able to beat it all and then quickly loose interest in the game and move onto the next Xbox fad.

Skilled players will leave the game altogether in favor of a game that actually has challenging and engaging gameplay.

That is how you ruin a game.

The game is emptying, The playerbase has been declining with any interest in the endgame environment.


Catering to less than 2% is how you lose people and money.


I never said make it stupid easy, That would be ridiculous. Your statement is in direct contradiction to factual numbers

Oh but hasn't the aim been to lower the ceiling and raise the floor all along with many of these changes?

That is what I am warning against....

And if you don't believe it's happening, just look at the nerfs to the vet dlc dungeons which are already beatable in roughly 30 mins with no death....

Make the Xal Nur fight easier?? WHO NEEDS THAT. He has 2.5 mil HP, goes down with minimal effort. This is how you make the game worse.

That philosophy merely results in cheapening the content, and by extension the game, and will work for only a little while until everyone realizes there is no substance left and leaves the game.

In order for a game to actually be good, it has to have a sizeable chunk of its content be difficult, to keep players working for something, and also to give players a sense of achievement when they beat it. That's how players get a meaningful experience out of a game.

I am personally in favor of no nerfs to PvE gameplay, and a return to a faster paced style of gameplay like what was seen in Homestead and earlier.

MLGProPlayer

No

Vaoh wrote: »

If ZOS actually cared about PvE endgame and wanted to incentivize running endgame PvE they'd have to provide meaningful rewards again. BoE gear = huge incentive+Gold to make up for the massive net gold loss caused by running Vet trials. Endgame PvE took an enormous population hit the moment that BoE gear was taken away from Vet trials.

Did anyone actually oppose BoE gear from trials? Everyone wins with BoE.

Those who can't complete the trials can still get the gear. Those who can complete them can make a killing running them.

zyk

No

If ESO's trial scene is dead it's because of a lack of content. PVE raiders from other games would not find the ESO endgame to be difficult.

IMO, the incredible buffs to players between 2.4 and 2.7 trivialized aspirational content like Trials and vMA. Even after 3.0, they are easier than when originally introduced.

Strider_Roshin

No

Not in the way you're suggesting. Personally I think PvE is still too easy overall.

Tasear

Other

It all depends on the people

Did vCOS hm in less than 30mins earlier today

Did it again in 2 hours... and it was only vCOS

Bobby_V_Rockit

Yes

Sure, start with vMA

Magdalina

Yes

Yes, Zenimax really needs to buff open world content already so people actually have an incentive to l2p and having to avoid red, bash heavies, dodge specials and follow mechanics in dungeons doesn't come as such an unbearable shock to them>.<

Edit: You asked if ZOS should look into PvE adjustments and that's what I have answered. Perhaps it'd give a clearer picture to ask what kind of adjustments people want instead

Nelson_Rebel

Yes

Magdalina wrote: »

Yes, Zenimax really needs to buff open world content already so people actually have an incentive to l2p and having to avoid red, bash heavies, dodge specials and follow mechanics in dungeons doesn't come as such an unbearable shock to them>.<

Edit: You asked if ZOS should look into PvE adjustments and that's what I have answered. Perhaps it'd give a clearer picture to ask what kind of adjustments people want instead

I welcome both.

If you want to disincentive playing the game for others that's your opinion.

MehrunesFlagon

Other

SoLooney wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

They really can't start nerfing trials at this point. It's the only endgame we have left. Even DLC dungeons got nerfed in HotR. And HotR dungeons will be easier than SotH ones.

As some people already mentioned, the valiant attempt to "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" failed miserably. The ceiling can still pull 40-50k DPS but the floor struggles to get 10-15k. Some work to squeeze out every drop of DPS and some don't even understand the concept of a rotation. It's hard to balance content for both of those groups.

Trial community is not dead. It became exclusive. Running in a PUG is just too painful for good players now. And bad players can't complete the trial by themselves without explanations and help.

If the casual player doesnt want to work at getting high dps, that is their problem, ceiling should not be lowered to cater to the newer casuals. Getting to the ceiling will take work and dedication but its not out of reach. and yes, not everyone will have the drive to reach it, thats a good thing

Honestly trying to overly appeal to casuals is the root of the problem.Those very people you try to rip your head off when you tell them they suck don't really care to increase their dps. Why should ours be lowered because of that? It is n't going to go up.At least significantly.

MehrunesFlagon

Other

Solution would be to reinstate cost reduction at 50% of the former rate in the cp tree.

Sixsixsix161

Yes

The greatest impact for me was that my pets (clannfear, bear) can now be pulled of off the enemy with heavy attacks.

The view of my pet running around, and not tanking any enemy (for any length) because he's busy trying to catch up with my heavy attacks (a group with multiple enemies) that I'm rotating between 3-4 (or more) enemies.

If the pet is not going to tank the enemy that I assign him to, then I don't need him.

The fun has gone from playing this game, and I had just decided last month to subscribe.

Seri

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Yes, Zenimax really needs to buff open world content already so people actually have an incentive to l2p and having to avoid red, bash heavies, dodge specials and follow mechanics in dungeons doesn't come as such an unbearable shock to them>.<

Edit: You asked if ZOS should look into PvE adjustments and that's what I have answered. Perhaps it'd give a clearer picture to ask what kind of adjustments people want instead

I welcome both.

If you want to disincentive playing the game for others that's your opinion.

Double-edge sword. I'll accept that overworld is challenging already for new players with no CP but you level up quick enough that it becomes trivial, so there is no incentive to truly learn core mechanics. Then when harder content arrives (vHoF, SOTH DLC, etc) we end up with the argument of 'but I can do all the other content'. Conversely, if everyone completes everything with light-attacks, it's a disincentive to play because they've 'finished' the game.

Perhaps the answer is a third tier between what is currently vet and non-vet, although I'd already argue the vet base-game dungeons are also too easy compared to the DLCs.

I agree with others here that we can't nerf the DLC or vet trials though. Or if they do, there needs to be a harder difficulty/leaderboards for those that want to push themselves, but wouldn't that just open the exact same discussion up that this new tier is 'too hard'?

AdicusDio

Royaji wrote: »

Some work to squeeze out every drop of DPS and some don't even understand the concept of a rotation.

I understand rotations. I also understand how they deplete every last drop of stam from you, leaving you open now. Magic-based can click away their magic rotation, and still have stam to roll or block. Stam need to stop and hold HA or stop altogether (Direfrost Keep final boss comes to mind) as they can't get close and bow HA doesn't return enough and dropping to low means you can'tr break out of CC.

Sure, we can break sets to favor more regen or more pool, but then it screws up the actual damage done. We can run all reduction or regen enchants on jewelry, but that means a gold bow is left with something like 1800 weapon damage. Etc. etc. Too many compromises have to be made for certain builds. Can run Hulking Draug'r but then you loose nearly 1300 crit chance, etc.

Whatever idiots are running Zos, are proving their worth atm by running everyone out of the game. I definitely won't stay if the next patch truly breaks my builds. Not interested in grinding more sets that'll just get "patched' later on.

SnubbS

The nerfs dont seem to have had that much of an impact(In terms of completions/Scores). People are completing Trials—Xbox NA beat the new trial in a week (or maybe two) after release (Which is loads better than vMoL). vMA Scores are roughly the same—PvE seems fine to me.

Heavy Attacking did reduce the fun factor—but PvE wasn't a lot of fun before anyway.

Yamenstein

No

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

SammyFable wrote: »

If anything, I think PvE content should receive a BUFF. Can't complete vet dungeons or trials? There is a normal mode for that...

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Sorry but from just Ps4 trophies alone for completion rates of veteran content (which are account based NOT character based) I find that this just isn't true

The content may have been easier for you perhaps, but CERTAINLY not the vast majority.

Do you understand, that these trophy statistic also include people who got the game, literally spend under an hour ingame and never touched it again? Do you understand that PvP only players are included? Do you understand, that people who play for the lore are included?
A completion statistic that includes EVERY single player, sorry no, every BUYER of the game has no meaning in regards to difficulty. Tell me, did 80%+ of PS4 players ever complete main quests? Did 80%+ achieve grand overlord? Did they achieve emperor? Did they complete every dungeon in this game?

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

I think a third option hardmode would be best. Let people have a chance to complete veteran content and achieve skins. And have the Hardcore players have exclusive Titles and perhaps Extra exclusive Mounts for it.

Because right now, trials ARE dead

Did you consider that there are players who actually LIKE a challenge? In your cry for more pve nerfs, did you think about those players already bored of 90% of ESOs content? Did you think about the players who want to work on themselves to be able to defeat Rhakkat in hardmode?


If ZoS WERE to implement a new difficulty there would still be people like you complaining about not being able to complete every single thing in that difficulty. If you think overall pve difficulty is too high, than you have to git gud. Sorry to say this, but if you play acknowledging mechanics, deal some decent DPS or heal or tank decently, you'll be able to complete everything.


People here already mentioned, that ZoS took the fun out of the game with the huge hammer they used on sustain. THAT'S why people leave the game. It is LESS FUN. ZoS also promised a more fast paced combat, but especially for a caster, heavy attacks, that are needed for high sustain and DPS, take ages to finally go off.

You do realize you have nothing to support your statement right? In regards to how many play the game or don't, or how many people PvP and don't PvE or any lore players that also do or don't do anything else



You can't prove anything you said, and while I also can't disprove it either, bringing up the completion rate is Valid. Because it shows factual disparity and real time solid evidence that supports my own opinion and statement.


And sure there's a normal mode. But I think that one argument doesn't cut it friend. you can't just justify making everything exclusive to
less than 2% of the playerbase, put an unrewarding normal mode on it. And call it good as good game balance.


But to each their own

But you also don't have anything to support your argument. It just sounds like you can't do a trial and need to reduced in difficulty because of it. Go do a survey if you have to. Otherwise no point anyone posting on this thread because you'll just pull more information out of thin air. Unrewarding normal mode? Isn't that a normal trial run?

Get good please.

Nelson_Rebel

Yes

Yamenstein wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

SammyFable wrote: »

If anything, I think PvE content should receive a BUFF. Can't complete vet dungeons or trials? There is a normal mode for that...

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Sorry but from just Ps4 trophies alone for completion rates of veteran content (which are account based NOT character based) I find that this just isn't true

The content may have been easier for you perhaps, but CERTAINLY not the vast majority.

Do you understand, that these trophy statistic also include people who got the game, literally spend under an hour ingame and never touched it again? Do you understand that PvP only players are included? Do you understand, that people who play for the lore are included?
A completion statistic that includes EVERY single player, sorry no, every BUYER of the game has no meaning in regards to difficulty. Tell me, did 80%+ of PS4 players ever complete main quests? Did 80%+ achieve grand overlord? Did they achieve emperor? Did they complete every dungeon in this game?

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

I think a third option hardmode would be best. Let people have a chance to complete veteran content and achieve skins. And have the Hardcore players have exclusive Titles and perhaps Extra exclusive Mounts for it.

Because right now, trials ARE dead

Did you consider that there are players who actually LIKE a challenge? In your cry for more pve nerfs, did you think about those players already bored of 90% of ESOs content? Did you think about the players who want to work on themselves to be able to defeat Rhakkat in hardmode?


If ZoS WERE to implement a new difficulty there would still be people like you complaining about not being able to complete every single thing in that difficulty. If you think overall pve difficulty is too high, than you have to git gud. Sorry to say this, but if you play acknowledging mechanics, deal some decent DPS or heal or tank decently, you'll be able to complete everything.


People here already mentioned, that ZoS took the fun out of the game with the huge hammer they used on sustain. THAT'S why people leave the game. It is LESS FUN. ZoS also promised a more fast paced combat, but especially for a caster, heavy attacks, that are needed for high sustain and DPS, take ages to finally go off.

You do realize you have nothing to support your statement right? In regards to how many play the game or don't, or how many people PvP and don't PvE or any lore players that also do or don't do anything else



You can't prove anything you said, and while I also can't disprove it either, bringing up the completion rate is Valid. Because it shows factual disparity and real time solid evidence that supports my own opinion and statement.


And sure there's a normal mode. But I think that one argument doesn't cut it friend. you can't just justify making everything exclusive to
less than 2% of the playerbase, put an unrewarding normal mode on it. And call it good as good game balance.


But to each their own

But you also don't have anything to support your argument. It just sounds like you can't do a trial and need to reduced in difficulty because of it. Go do a survey if you have to. Otherwise no point anyone posting on this thread because you'll just pull more information out of thin air. Unrewarding normal mode? Isn't that a normal trial run?

Get good please.

Yes I do have supporting information.

The completion rate of Ps4 for ANY vet trial
is lesss than 2%


The only achievements worse than that are Emperor, Flawless conquerer, and DSA

The statistics are grossly showing a Disparity in how Veteran content is not being completed.


That is factual, You have nothing backing your statement

MLGProPlayer

No

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Yamenstein wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

SammyFable wrote: »

If anything, I think PvE content should receive a BUFF. Can't complete vet dungeons or trials? There is a normal mode for that...

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Sorry but from just Ps4 trophies alone for completion rates of veteran content (which are account based NOT character based) I find that this just isn't true

The content may have been easier for you perhaps, but CERTAINLY not the vast majority.

Do you understand, that these trophy statistic also include people who got the game, literally spend under an hour ingame and never touched it again? Do you understand that PvP only players are included? Do you understand, that people who play for the lore are included?
A completion statistic that includes EVERY single player, sorry no, every BUYER of the game has no meaning in regards to difficulty. Tell me, did 80%+ of PS4 players ever complete main quests? Did 80%+ achieve grand overlord? Did they achieve emperor? Did they complete every dungeon in this game?

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

I think a third option hardmode would be best. Let people have a chance to complete veteran content and achieve skins. And have the Hardcore players have exclusive Titles and perhaps Extra exclusive Mounts for it.

Because right now, trials ARE dead

Did you consider that there are players who actually LIKE a challenge? In your cry for more pve nerfs, did you think about those players already bored of 90% of ESOs content? Did you think about the players who want to work on themselves to be able to defeat Rhakkat in hardmode?


If ZoS WERE to implement a new difficulty there would still be people like you complaining about not being able to complete every single thing in that difficulty. If you think overall pve difficulty is too high, than you have to git gud. Sorry to say this, but if you play acknowledging mechanics, deal some decent DPS or heal or tank decently, you'll be able to complete everything.


People here already mentioned, that ZoS took the fun out of the game with the huge hammer they used on sustain. THAT'S why people leave the game. It is LESS FUN. ZoS also promised a more fast paced combat, but especially for a caster, heavy attacks, that are needed for high sustain and DPS, take ages to finally go off.

You do realize you have nothing to support your statement right? In regards to how many play the game or don't, or how many people PvP and don't PvE or any lore players that also do or don't do anything else



You can't prove anything you said, and while I also can't disprove it either, bringing up the completion rate is Valid. Because it shows factual disparity and real time solid evidence that supports my own opinion and statement.


And sure there's a normal mode. But I think that one argument doesn't cut it friend. you can't just justify making everything exclusive to
less than 2% of the playerbase, put an unrewarding normal mode on it. And call it good as good game balance.


But to each their own

But you also don't have anything to support your argument. It just sounds like you can't do a trial and need to reduced in difficulty because of it. Go do a survey if you have to. Otherwise no point anyone posting on this thread because you'll just pull more information out of thin air. Unrewarding normal mode? Isn't that a normal trial run?

Get good please.

Yes I do have supporting information.

The completion rate of Ps4 for ANY vet trial
is lesss than 2%


The only achievements worse than that are Emperor, Flawless conquerer, and DSA

The statistics are grossly showing a Disparity in how Veteran content is not being completed.


That is factual, You have nothing backing your statement

Why is that a problem though? You don't have to complete vet trials. If only 2% of players can complete them, then that's fine.

Vet trials are there for people who want a challenge. Normal trials are for everyone else.

idk

No

Blanco wrote: »

In all fairness, the main thing that was nerfed has been fun.

The sustain changes have slowed down the pace of gameplay, and forced one to do far more HAs than he/she would prefer.

Yep. In PvE dps is still solid and the power creep continues. I would expect some groups may find things more challenging if their players did not adjust, but that does not mean content needs to be nerfed.

One thing I will say, the devs made the changes for two essential reason, what they called unlimited sustain, which really only occurred with well organized groups, and "lower the ceiling and raise the floor" to decrease the disparity between the high and low ends of the dps community.

For the latter it probably has had a more negative impact and increased the difference since the change to rotations is not just doing a HA from time to time. Light attack weaving, that are actual light attacks and not medium or heavy, are one big factor for getting good dps. Zos kinda messed up with their idea.