So Miat's PVP addon can detect stealth players even when they are in stealth state?

Judas Helviaryn

DDuke wrote: »

This addon represents everything that is wrong with the game.

Really? I thought it was the toxic community, inconsistent patch jobs, and inexorable dumbing down of game mechanics.

Guess that's just me.

DDuke

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

This addon represents everything that is wrong with the game.

Really? I thought it was the toxic community, inconsistent patch jobs, and inexorable dumbing down of game mechanics.

Guess that's just me.

This addon represents all of that too, one could say it's a direct consequence of what you mentioned.

SodanTok

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

This addon represents everything that is wrong with the game.

Really? I thought it was the toxic community, inconsistent patch jobs, and inexorable dumbing down of game mechanics.

Guess that's just me.

Addon by toxic author for many toxic 1vX and scrubs dumbing down open world positioning mechanics and required skill for longer than half year without any sign of patch to remove that part from API not even some reaction from ZoS. Did I get it right?

STEVIL

Dorrino wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Thank God I play on console

None of these stupid add ons that help you. Who knows what else is out there?
I'm sure there's stuff that blocks certain attacks for you or pulls off quick combos for you

Then some of these pc players come here with "master race" looool your gaming environment is toxic

Except we know exactly what else is out there...

There is a database with every add-on. Add-ons aren't hacks. They use the game's API. We know everything they can and cannot do.

LOL, you have no idea what's out there..... Unlike miat's add-on that ZOS blocked part of, there are some out there that take FULL advantage of the API, which is why they're private.

The API is publicly available. You can know exactly what add-ons are possible and which aren't.

Yes but there is a difference between knowing the list of possible ingredients and knowing what can be made from those ingredients and absolutely a difference between those and what is on sale at the local esoui bakery.

Consider - what if mists had never been released to esoui? What if it continued a small private maybe guild wide add-on. We would likely never had known it was doing all that it did that prompted action and changes.

Now lets assume mists was not and is not the pinnacle of PvP helper add-ins, just a decent one that was made public.

That does not seem an unreasonable hypothesis.

But until and unless ZOS implements an add-on white list system where the game refuses to run any non-zos-approved stuff, we cannot say with any confidence that we know what add-ins are in play.

While this is correct in the sense that knowing API might not be the same as knowing what can be made out of API, the whole situation gets overblown all the time by people mentioning that 'nobody knows what private addons people have!':)

The API is heavily limited in what it provides to the addons.

For instance there's no way to know map or 3d coordinated of enemy players. The API just doesn't provide that information.

There's no grey area as in 'smart people can do what ZOS prevented them to do to gain advantage'.

Anybody familiar with the API can immediately answer you what is and what is not possible to do in the addons.

What i did in the initial implementation of pvpalerts i just examined WHAT the API provides and found out it provided information about other players around me. There was no trick, no obscure information. The API, plain and simple, just had been telling anybody that 'unit #xxxxx casted cloak' or 'unit #yyyyy started blocking'. And in a separate place the API provided that 'unit with the name zzzz with id #aaaaa swapped its weapon bars'.

The only not straightforward thing i did was i remembered in the addon that unit with id #aaaaa had the name zzzz.

And that's literally it.

Btw, people who are afraid that 'there're many unpublished addons that give huge pvp advantage' are welcomed to ask specific questions in this thread as to what is possible and what is impossible to do with the API. I'll do my best to provide the answers.

Cheers!

First bold - everything gets overblown around here all the time so... that does not give the ability to make your own private game enhancers a pass in terms of what they can do and what people can think about it.

First italics - my bet is the API was "heavily limited" before miat's and its functionality became public and resulted in ZOS attempting to rein in the functionality even more. My bet is it will be "heavily limited" after the next case is outted and zos makes more limitations and reductions.

An RPG cannot do as much as a tomahawk missile but that doesn't mean one person should get tomahawks while another gets a slingshot.

So all the vague or even specific "but look at what all it cannot do" don't matter a whit compared to what it can do.

A non-add-on player in the game does not always get alerted to cancelled attacks, but an add-on that happens to be public makes it available to some.

If the competitive portions of this game are intended to be "for programmers only" who can build their own add-ons that should likely be made clear before purchase.

Second bold - was that statement true before the prior miats add-ons issues which led ZOS to reduce what the API allowed, or was there at that time such a "grey area" but now we have reached a perfect nirvana point where all the abuses that might be are covered?

or is the definition being used simply a case of "whatever is allowed" is fine?

Would you be against a formal policy preventing the game from using any non-public, non-zos approved add-on? If not, are there add-ons do you want to keep using that are not available to others?

DDuke

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Why is this addon still allowed?

It clearly provides the users a distinct in game advantage and actually even affects build diversity as people can't build around heavy attacks or any channeled skill for example

If I manage to cloak, a person not using this addon doesn't know if I'm running away or charging up a heavy attack.

A person using this addon will know exactly what I'm doing & react to it, making many builds actually unplayable vs people using this addon.

Nullmagic

cyx54tc wrote: »

Just did some testing with my friend, and it seems like that addon is able to detect player even if they never get out of stealth state.

Scenario tested: I am in stealth state and I use snipe. The moment I channel the spell my friend receives a warning about me sniping him. Even if I cancel the skill immediately after cast with block, which allows me to stay in stealth and not reveal myseal. The addon is able to detect it.

Same thing with Ambush. The moment I used ambush the addon detects it, even if I canceled it and stayed in stealth.

Some ppl have been saying that we have over estimated what the addon can do, but able to detect players directed spell even if they never get out of stealth state looks broken to me.


Edit:
Just to make this more clear. The addon is able to detect direct spells even if the spell was never fired (canceled) and the player never get out of stealth. If you don't have the addon you won't see or hear a thing.

This addon should absolutely be banned. Either stealth is in the game, or it isn't. Letting people who find/use this addon have a tremendous advantage vs people without is complete and utter #*($^(#.

STEVIL

Nullmagic wrote: »

cyx54tc wrote: »

Just did some testing with my friend, and it seems like that addon is able to detect player even if they never get out of stealth state.

Scenario tested: I am in stealth state and I use snipe. The moment I channel the spell my friend receives a warning about me sniping him. Even if I cancel the skill immediately after cast with block, which allows me to stay in stealth and not reveal myseal. The addon is able to detect it.

Same thing with Ambush. The moment I used ambush the addon detects it, even if I canceled it and stayed in stealth.

Some ppl have been saying that we have over estimated what the addon can do, but able to detect players directed spell even if they never get out of stealth state looks broken to me.


Edit:
Just to make this more clear. The addon is able to detect direct spells even if the spell was never fired (canceled) and the player never get out of stealth. If you don't have the addon you won't see or hear a thing.

This addon should absolutely be banned. Either stealth is in the game, or it isn't. Letting people who find/use this addon have a tremendous advantage vs people without is complete and utter #*($^(#.

To me the key is not to ban the few publicly available add-ons that give an advantage while leaving the private ones alone. that is treating only the most obvious manifestation of the disease. its like treating the cut or the bruise and ignoring the clotting disorder.

Nyladreas

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I currently start a cast time attack like frags just to see if someone is using the addon. If I see them immediately dismount and start blocking and dodging, I just follow them around in stealth casting and cancelling causing a notification to pop up on their screen over and over and over again for up to 5-10 minutes.

More people like this needed asap. I urge everyone to do the same to these *** until ZOS finds a fix.

I'd have no problem with the addon if it popped up AFTER cast, not during.

Royaji

DDuke wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Why is this addon still allowed?

It clearly provides the users a distinct in game advantage and actually even affects build diversity as people can't build around heavy attacks or any channeled skill for example

If I manage to cloak, a person not using this addon doesn't know if I'm running away or charging up a heavy attack.

A person using this addon will know exactly what I'm doing & react to it, making many builds actually unplayable vs people using this addon.

[This post has been removed.]

[This post has been removed.]

Stealthy rogues have a serious issue, they are only fun for the player himself. There is nothing enjoyable in getting ganked in one combo or fighting a stealthy archer who keeps kiting you and disappearing the moment something goes wrong. This playstyle only works for solo-games.

I really wish ZOS would discourage gank even more (and they are doing a good job with it) but give nightblades and bow some changes to make them viable through different means. Maybe a nerf (or flat out removal) to impen or some viable CC options for bow so they can actually stay in range...

DDuke

STEVIL wrote: »

Nullmagic wrote: »

cyx54tc wrote: »

Just did some testing with my friend, and it seems like that addon is able to detect player even if they never get out of stealth state.

Scenario tested: I am in stealth state and I use snipe. The moment I channel the spell my friend receives a warning about me sniping him. Even if I cancel the skill immediately after cast with block, which allows me to stay in stealth and not reveal myseal. The addon is able to detect it.

Same thing with Ambush. The moment I used ambush the addon detects it, even if I canceled it and stayed in stealth.

Some ppl have been saying that we have over estimated what the addon can do, but able to detect players directed spell even if they never get out of stealth state looks broken to me.


Edit:
Just to make this more clear. The addon is able to detect direct spells even if the spell was never fired (canceled) and the player never get out of stealth. If you don't have the addon you won't see or hear a thing.

This addon should absolutely be banned. Either stealth is in the game, or it isn't. Letting people who find/use this addon have a tremendous advantage vs people without is complete and utter #*($^(#.

To me the key is not to ban the few publicly available add-ons that give an advantage while leaving the private ones alone. that is treating only the most obvious manifestation of the disease. its like treating the cut or the bruise and ignoring the clotting disorder.

I don't agree with @STEVIL often, but this is one of those cases.


Any API function to detect incoming attacks (especially from stealth) needs to be removed posthaste.

DDuke

Royaji wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Why is this addon still allowed?

It clearly provides the users a distinct in game advantage and actually even affects build diversity as people can't build around heavy attacks or any channeled skill for example

If I manage to cloak, a person not using this addon doesn't know if I'm running away or charging up a heavy attack.

A person using this addon will know exactly what I'm doing & react to it, making many builds actually unplayable vs people using this addon.

[This post has been removed.]

[This post has been removed.]

Stealthy rogues have a serious issue, they are only fun for the player himself. There is nothing enjoyable in getting ganked in one combo or fighting a stealthy archer who keeps kiting you and disappearing the moment something goes wrong. This playstyle only works for solo-games.

I really wish ZOS would discourage gank even more (and they are doing a good job with it) but give nightblades and bow some changes to make them viable through different means. Maybe a nerf (or flat out removal) to impen or some viable CC options for bow so they can actually stay in range...

There are plenty of counters to stealthers in this game, perhaps more counters than towards any other build archetype.

Also, with sneak attack modifier removed in last patch and proc sets on their way out, it remains to be seen if instagibs will be a thing anymore.


That said, there's always ways to fix/improve the stealth system (I've made half a dozen threads regarding the subject over the past three years).

One big, important change would be adding some kind of faint visual cues as to where a stealther is moving, so you can aim AoE there & atleast try to hit them (rather than just get lucky).

I feel that would add a necessary counter to cloak spam and would especially make NB vs NB fights more enjoyable.


...though I'd kinda like to see 100% invisibility in a non-spammable ultimate form, e.g. they could revamp Veil/Bolstering Darkness to give invisibility when cast.

STEVIL

Royaji wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Why is this addon still allowed?

It clearly provides the users a distinct in game advantage and actually even affects build diversity as people can't build around heavy attacks or any channeled skill for example

If I manage to cloak, a person not using this addon doesn't know if I'm running away or charging up a heavy attack.

A person using this addon will know exactly what I'm doing & react to it, making many builds actually unplayable vs people using this addon.

[This post has been removed.]

[This post has been removed.]

Stealthy rogues have a serious issue, they are only fun for the player himself. There is nothing enjoyable in getting ganked in one combo or fighting a stealthy archer who keeps kiting you and disappearing the moment something goes wrong. This playstyle only works for solo-games.

I really wish ZOS would discourage gank even more (and they are doing a good job with it) but give nightblades and bow some changes to make them viable through different means. Maybe a nerf (or flat out removal) to impen or some viable CC options for bow so they can actually stay in range...

ok but the thing is while you dont like the ambush predator playstyle i guarantee you i have seen tons of posts hating the tanking playstyle and some against the healing playstyle and others against the zerging playstyle and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on... so that by the time we accept that your position that playstyles some folks dont like should be discouraged by rules changes is valid along with everybody elses and we cut back all those playstyles that somebody doesn't like - there wont be a damn thing worth playing left.

Alternatively, we could just accept that other folks like other things and that limiting others to playing how we want is actually what should be releagted to solo-games.

Royaji

DDuke wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Why is this addon still allowed?

It clearly provides the users a distinct in game advantage and actually even affects build diversity as people can't build around heavy attacks or any channeled skill for example

If I manage to cloak, a person not using this addon doesn't know if I'm running away or charging up a heavy attack.

A person using this addon will know exactly what I'm doing & react to it, making many builds actually unplayable vs people using this addon.

[This post has been removed.]

[This post has been removed.]

Stealthy rogues have a serious issue, they are only fun for the player himself. There is nothing enjoyable in getting ganked in one combo or fighting a stealthy archer who keeps kiting you and disappearing the moment something goes wrong. This playstyle only works for solo-games.

I really wish ZOS would discourage gank even more (and they are doing a good job with it) but give nightblades and bow some changes to make them viable through different means. Maybe a nerf (or flat out removal) to impen or some viable CC options for bow so they can actually stay in range...

There are plenty of counters to stealthers in this game, perhaps more counters than towards any other build archetype.

Also, with sneak attack modifier removed in last patch and proc sets on their way out, it remains to be seen if instagibs will be a thing anymore.


That said, there's always ways to fix/improve the stealth system (I've made half a dozen threads regarding the subject over the past three years).

One big, important change would be adding some kind of faint visual cues as to where a stealther is moving, so you can aim AoE there & atleast try to hit them (rather than just get lucky).

I feel that would add a necessary counter to cloak spam and would especially make NB vs NB fights more enjoyable.


...though I'd kinda like to see 100% invisibility in a non-spammable ultimate form, e.g. they could revamp Veil/Bolstering Darkness to give invisibility when cast.

Most of the counters to stealth are extremely situational. They either take a valuable skill slot (looking at you, camo hunter...) or force you to not use pots (45 seconds cooldown is a long time). We do not have access to a lot of skill slots and giving up one of them to deal with those stealthy *** instead of having a real skill you can use in a fight with a proper opponent is not fun.

I like your idea of removing complete invisibility but this might make stealth pretty much useless and we do not need all the salty NB tears on the forums, they were nerfed hard enough...

STEVIL

If i were going to build a more competitive model for steal-based ambush play it would focus on the following features:

1. full invis only when not moving and when not attacking
2. partial invis when moving and in combat - play the cloak-combat as a reduction to damage or a purging of ongoing effects or both so the net result is its a form of defense
3. shorter "out of sight" radius for partial stealth making run away easier but not guaranteed.
4. instead of a mega-burst one shot or run away paradigm, give the stealth shot a significant, persistent (likely unpurgable) debuff so that after the ambush strike they have a ticking advantage they can try and exploit but not an insta-kill or run - a healing reduction is an obvious contender.

DDuke

Royaji wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Why is this addon still allowed?

It clearly provides the users a distinct in game advantage and actually even affects build diversity as people can't build around heavy attacks or any channeled skill for example

If I manage to cloak, a person not using this addon doesn't know if I'm running away or charging up a heavy attack.

A person using this addon will know exactly what I'm doing & react to it, making many builds actually unplayable vs people using this addon.

[This post has been removed.]

[This post has been removed.]

Stealthy rogues have a serious issue, they are only fun for the player himself. There is nothing enjoyable in getting ganked in one combo or fighting a stealthy archer who keeps kiting you and disappearing the moment something goes wrong. This playstyle only works for solo-games.

I really wish ZOS would discourage gank even more (and they are doing a good job with it) but give nightblades and bow some changes to make them viable through different means. Maybe a nerf (or flat out removal) to impen or some viable CC options for bow so they can actually stay in range...

There are plenty of counters to stealthers in this game, perhaps more counters than towards any other build archetype.

Also, with sneak attack modifier removed in last patch and proc sets on their way out, it remains to be seen if instagibs will be a thing anymore.


That said, there's always ways to fix/improve the stealth system (I've made half a dozen threads regarding the subject over the past three years).

One big, important change would be adding some kind of faint visual cues as to where a stealther is moving, so you can aim AoE there & atleast try to hit them (rather than just get lucky).

I feel that would add a necessary counter to cloak spam and would especially make NB vs NB fights more enjoyable.


...though I'd kinda like to see 100% invisibility in a non-spammable ultimate form, e.g. they could revamp Veil/Bolstering Darkness to give invisibility when cast.

Most of the counters to stealth are extremely situational. They either take a valuable skill slot (looking at you, camo hunter...) or force you to not use pots (45 seconds cooldown is a long time). We do not have access to a lot of skill slots and giving up one of them to deal with those stealthy *** instead of having a real skill you can use in a fight with a proper opponent is not fun.

I like your idea of removing complete invisibility but this might make stealth pretty much useless and we do not need all the salty NB tears on the forums, they were nerfed hard enough...

Well, as a NB (with a very stealth focused build on top of that), I don't think it would make stealth useless -if- visual cues existed only for moving targets and were faint enough that people would have to pay attention.
I think that'd create an interesting dynamic and even though it would be a nerf to my main class, it'd be one I'm happy about.

Though as a trade-off I'd like them to fix all the cloak bugs :P

Dorrino

STEVIL wrote: »

First italics - my bet is the API was "heavily limited" before miat's and its functionality became public and resulted in ZOS attempting to rein in the functionality even more. My bet is it will be "heavily limited" after the next case is outted and zos makes more limitations and reductions.

@STEVIL

'Heavily limited' doesn't mean 'doesn't provide stuff STEVIL doesn't like':)

'Heavily limited' means addons are allowed to get access to a tiny portion of the information the game client possesses.

ZOS 'limited' it even more after they realized that some of its parts actually go against ZOS design philosophy.

It didn't happen because the outcry per se. People cry about a lot of things. It so happened that API provided more information about enemy players that ZOS wanted to be in the game.

In this sense my addon informed ZOS about this mishap and they corrected it.

STEVIL wrote: »

An RPG cannot do as much as a tomahawk missile but that doesn't mean one person should get tomahawks while another gets a slingshot.

How exactly these players are different so you can draw this distinction?

STEVIL wrote: »

A non-add-on player in the game does not always get alerted to cancelled attacks, but an add-on that happens to be public makes it available to some.

'A non-addon player' has much more limited information about his whereabouts than 'an addon player' by definition. That's what addons do - provide much more clear and concise information to the people who want to have it.

STEVIL wrote: »

If the competitive portions of this game are intended to be "for programmers only" who can build their own add-ons that should likely be made clear before purchase.

'Programmers' have nothing to do with this. You imply that the addon in question provides an indisputable advantage over a player without it and it can be shown and i did it multiple times on these forums that this is false.

If you try to gank me and i dodge i don't have an advantage over you. On the contrary you had advantage being in stealth and charging up a high hitting attack on me. If so happened that i got notified about it and was proficient enough to properly respond to it. My action didn't put you in any kind of danger. You just failed to capitalize on the advantage of stealth.

STEVIL wrote: »

Second bold - was that statement true before the prior miats add-ons issues which led ZOS to reduce what the API allowed, or was there at that time such a "grey area" but now we have reached a perfect nirvana point where all the abuses that might be are covered?

There was never a grey area. Before i made pvpalerts you could ask anybody familiar with API if it was possible to know that somebody is stealthing nearby and he would reply to you that the answer was yes.

STEVIL wrote: »

or is the definition being used simply a case of "whatever is allowed" is fine?

This is exactly what it is as far as ESO addons are concerned. ESO API is a heavily sandboxed environment. Whatever in there is what ZOS intended to allow in the addons. ZOS make mistakes, but that doesn't undermine their intentions.

STEVIL wrote: »

Would you be against a formal policy preventing the game from using any non-public, non-zos approved add-on? If not, are there add-ons do you want to keep using that are not available to others?

Ignoring the fact that 'non-public, non-zos approved add-on policy' will not work, i wouldn't mind it in principle. I think that addons enrich ESO experience and i very much welcome everybody to share their creations with the public.

It would make developing addons impossible though, because you wouldn't be able to test them before the approval.

DDuke wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Why is this addon still allowed?

It clearly provides the users a distinct in game advantage and actually even affects build diversity as people can't build around heavy attacks or any channeled skill for example

If I manage to cloak, a person not using this addon doesn't know if I'm running away or charging up a heavy attack.

A person using this addon will know exactly what I'm doing & react to it, making many builds actually unplayable vs people using this addon.

@DDuke

Which specs are 'built around heavy attacks or any channeled skill for example', that my addon has anything to do with?

Bow gankers?

DDuke wrote: »

If I manage to cloak, a person not using this addon doesn't know if I'm running away or charging up a heavy attack.

Heavy attacks are excluded.

DDuke wrote: »

making many builds actually unplayable vs people using this addon

Which builds are these exactly?

NBrookus

SodanTok wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

This addon represents everything that is wrong with the game.

Really? I thought it was the toxic community, inconsistent patch jobs, and inexorable dumbing down of game mechanics.

Guess that's just me.

Addon by toxic author for many toxic 1vX and scrubs dumbing down open world positioning mechanics and required skill for longer than half year without any sign of patch to remove that part from API not even some reaction from ZoS. Did I get it right?

There was a reaction. ZOS reviewed the API and made some changes to limit the function of the add-on, and by inaction gave blessing to the rest of it.

As long as there is an audio warning of an attack, there's no reason there should not also be a visual warning permitted. If the intention of the designers was to permit players to one-shot each other from stealth with no counterplay, the audio warning wouldn't be there in the first place.

Does it suck when someone dodges all your attacks? Yes, yes it does. This hurts non-gankers trying to defend against a gankblade more than it does the gankers.

DDuke

Dorrino wrote: »

@DDuke

Which specs are 'built around heavy attacks or any channeled skill for example', that my addon has anything to do with?

Bow gankers?

Anyone using Snipe/Wrecking Blow in general. I haven't seen a "bow ganker" in ages (apart from some low lvl/cp people).

Dorrino wrote: »

"If I manage to cloak, a person not using this addon doesn't know if I'm running away or charging up a heavy attack. "

Heavy attacks are excluded.

From the addon page:

Attacks being tracked are : all heavy attacks (besides lightning staff and restoration staff), Snipe (Focused Aim, Lethal Arrow), Uppercut (Dizzying Swing, Wrecking Blow), Dark Flare/Solar Flare, hard-casted Crystal Fragments, Assassin's Will/Scourge, Ambush and Lotus Fan.

What do you mean by "heavy attacks are excluded."?

Dorrino wrote: »

"making many builds actually unplayable vs people using this addon"

Which builds are these exactly?

Well, most builds that rely on cloak for combos.

Mine for example, I use cloak to Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack from cloak for high burst with CC, followed up by Incap.

If the target knows I'm charging a heavy attack, the target just simply blocks/dodges and suddenly my main combo isn't working anymore.


I'd say it also makes bow builds even less playable than they currently are for stamblades, as you can't Cloak->Lethal Arrow and expect to deal any damage (since opponent will know you're using cloak to cast Lethal Arrow, and not to run away or use some other kind of combo). Being cloaked is one of the very, very few ways you can use that skill (besides ganking) so...

STEVIL

Dorrino wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

First italics - my bet is the API was "heavily limited" before miat's and its functionality became public and resulted in ZOS attempting to rein in the functionality even more. My bet is it will be "heavily limited" after the next case is outted and zos makes more limitations and reductions.

@STEVIL

'Heavily limited' doesn't mean 'doesn't provide stuff STEVIL doesn't like':)

'Heavily limited' means addons are allowed to get access to a tiny portion of the information the game client possesses.

ZOS 'limited' it even more after they realized that some of its parts actually go against ZOS design philosophy.

It didn't happen because the outcry per se. People cry about a lot of things. It so happened that API provided more information about enemy players that ZOS wanted to be in the game.

In this sense my addon informed ZOS about this mishap and they corrected it.

STEVIL wrote: »

An RPG cannot do as much as a tomahawk missile but that doesn't mean one person should get tomahawks while another gets a slingshot.

How exactly these players are different so you can draw this distinction?

STEVIL wrote: »

A non-add-on player in the game does not always get alerted to cancelled attacks, but an add-on that happens to be public makes it available to some.

'A non-addon player' has much more limited information about his whereabouts than 'an addon player' by definition. That's what addons do - provide much more clear and concise information to the people who want to have it.

STEVIL wrote: »

If the competitive portions of this game are intended to be "for programmers only" who can build their own add-ons that should likely be made clear before purchase.

'Programmers' have nothing to do with this. You imply that the addon in question provides an indisputable advantage over a player without it and it can be shown and i did it multiple times on these forums that this is false.

If you try to gank me and i dodge i don't have an advantage over you. On the contrary you had advantage being in stealth and charging up a high hitting attack on me. If so happened that i got notified about it and was proficient enough to properly respond to it. My action didn't put you in any kind of danger. You just failed to capitalize on the advantage of stealth.

STEVIL wrote: »

Second bold - was that statement true before the prior miats add-ons issues which led ZOS to reduce what the API allowed, or was there at that time such a "grey area" but now we have reached a perfect nirvana point where all the abuses that might be are covered?

There was never a grey area. Before i made pvpalerts you could ask anybody familiar with API if it was possible to know that somebody is stealthing nearby and he would reply to you that the answer was yes.

STEVIL wrote: »

or is the definition being used simply a case of "whatever is allowed" is fine?

This is exactly what it is as far as ESO addons are concerned. ESO API is a heavily sandboxed environment. Whatever in there is what ZOS intended to allow in the addons. ZOS make mistakes, but that doesn't undermine their intentions.

STEVIL wrote: »

Would you be against a formal policy preventing the game from using any non-public, non-zos approved add-on? If not, are there add-ons do you want to keep using that are not available to others?

Ignoring the fact that 'non-public, non-zos approved add-on policy' will not work, i wouldn't mind it in principle. I think that addons enrich ESO experience and i very much welcome everybody to share their creations with the public.

It would make developing addons impossible though, because you wouldn't be able to test them before the approval.

This is funny.

Ok so i never said anything about what info i wanted in the APi or out of the API, so the "provide stuff STEVIL doesn;t like" is a straw man you somehow felt needed to be the first thing you relied on.

man, thats telling.

Regarding the bold, while you are patting yourself on the back, you make my point for me. it wasn't you creating your add-on but your releasing your add-on publically that led to the triggered firestorm that brought all this to such a point that ZOS acted.

Had your add-on stayed behind privacy, maybe only used by a guild who did not make it known, or is like any number of other add-ons out there now doing the same with different as of yet "unrealized against their design intent" aspects, it would likely be still going stgrong with all its original features mostly intact.

As for the italics, i draw distinction between players whose real-life skills make them able to write add-ons for themselves and those who real-life skills do not.

As i said clearly, if the competitive environment of this game were to be one where to be really competitive you needs to be a programmer of private add-ons, that shoudl have been listed in the requirements somewhere prior to purchase.

As for the bold - Sorry but, let me ask clearly to you - are you disputing the Op claim that with miats you would be notified of a started and cancelled attack even if there would not have been an audible cue without miats?

if you agree that the miats warns of an attack even before an audible cue would have gone, then you are admitting to an advantage.

As for programmers having nothing to do with it, unless there is a tool within the game for creating your own add-ons then it is being done with some form of external programming, so sorry again, you are wrong.

Finally lets get to the heart of the issue and why i feel there needs to be much stronger policing by ZOS of private add-ons

you say this"This is exactly what it is as far as ESO addons are concerned. ESO API is a heavily sandboxed environment. Whatever in there is what ZOS intended to allow in the addons. ZOS make mistakes, but that doesn't undermine their intentions."

That was in response to mesaying "or is the definition being used simply a case of "whatever is allowed" is fine? "

But see, you are wrong again.

The idea of "an exploit" is clearly ensconced in this game. Just because something "can be done" does not mean it is fine for players to do this.

Just ask players who used a banker/survey trick some time ago, or players who farmed certain bosses who kept dropping stuff and ones who used gap closers and other things to bypass walls or barriers etc etc etc etc etc.

At each of those there were folks that said "but if the game allows it its fine" and frequently ZOS after public scrutiny has come along and said "nope, not so" and made changes and punished those who did "what was allowed".

So, no, in this game, what is allowed is not always fine, not even close.

But the key is this - each of those cases basically came to light after being publically recognized and reported thru various tools and options.

PRIVATE ADD-ONS are not publically spottable.

The fact that the APi was changed after miats went public supports both those points - that what is allowed is not always fair or intended and that public scrutiny is a key element to policing these issues.

Now, i can sure get why folks who can build their own private add-ons want it to be accepted that whatever they can do is fine, but you know, just like folks who gathered untold numbers of surveys using their banker trick likely thought they should have been allowed to keep all their gains... understanding the desire doesn't make it right or even within the bounds of fair.

Building an add-on that exploits an unrecognized aspect of the APi is no different in my mind than using the banker/survey or the gap-closers/keeps or any of the other exploits that ZOS has slammed down on over the years. "ADD-ON" and "API" are not "get out of jail free cards" against the exploit considerations that apply to all the players in this game and PRIVATE ADD-ONS are not either - IMO.

if a player finds something "that is allowed" that is considered an exploit and uses it for his own gain, that player is subject to punishment. if that player spreads that knowledge so others can exploit it too, even more so. Eventually ZOS likely fixes the exploit and deals with those involved.

Now does that same thing apply in cases where an ADD-On maker creates, uses then spreads an add-on that gives them an advantage and to such an extent that ZOS later changes the game to close those Add-On provided "exploits"?

i do not think it should matter whether an advantage was exploited in live play or by add-on as to whether it is Ok and fine or an "exploit".

Do you use any private add-ons (onesthat are not publicly available on ESOUI)?

Dorrino

@DDuke

DDuke wrote: »

Anyone using Snipe/Wrecking Blow in general. I haven't seen a "bow ganker" in ages (apart from some low lvl/cp people).

So to be precise either snipe spammer from 30 yards or not a nightblade, because nightblades don't use wb? This is correct?

DDuke wrote: »

What do you mean by "heavy attacks are excluded."?

You don't get notified about them from stealth.

DDuke wrote: »

Well, most builds that rely on cloak for combos.

Combos? That rely on cloak?

Are you sure it's not 'would be awesome if that landed, but i'm fine if it's not'?

Because gankers don't 'combo' from cloak, they 'combo' from stealth. And non-ganker stamblades don't rely on that 'combo' to any real extent.

DDuke wrote: »

Mine for example, I use cloak to Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack from cloak for high burst with CC, followed up by Incap.

If the target knows I'm charging a heavy attack, the target just simply blocks/dodges and suddenly my main combo isn't working anymore.

Nothing about this 'combo' is notified within the addon.

Even if i did though, if your opponent doesn't expect that 'combo' within 3 sec of cloak application, he's most likely too inexperienced to benefit from the addon as well.

DDuke wrote: »

I'd say it also makes bow builds even less playable than they currently are for stamblades, as you can't Cloak->Lethal Arrow and expect to deal any damage (since opponent will know you're using cloak to cast Lethal Arrow, and not to run away or use some other kind of combo). Being cloaked is one of the very, very few ways you can use that skill (besides ganking) so...

I'd argue that i haven't seen a non-ganker and non-newb using snipe in ages as well, thus i don't think this 'combo' is relevant.

DocFrost72

@Dorrino

First, let me stress I do not dislike you. You worked with what you were allowed to, and I'm not going to use the "who knows what else" argument. I'm simply going to say I am so vehemently against this addon, it has killed the PvP buzz I picked up during this event.

I am a stamina templar. I don't have isues with gankers, because I've never had the misfortune to be one shotted by them. I wear 7 medium armor with 5 divines (because the other two pieces are my PvE vicious ophidian) and have just 26k health. I don't think anyone will say that is a tank.

This addon can tell you if I am possibly using an attack from stealth, before I've even comitted to doing so. That I need to stress this is mind boggling.

I don't blame you, I blame the API. I do, however, hate your addon with a burning passion equivalent to 12 supernova suns.

And in case anyone is concerned I support ganking with no counterplay; this adDon will tell you if the sorc behind you, out of stealth, that you never saw, pressed a button and is about to fire a crystal frag.

That isn't my idea of a good healthy addition to the game. I'm sorry.

Dorrino

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Dorrino
This addon can tell you if I am possibly using an attack from stealth, before I've even comitted to doing so. That I need to stress this is mind boggling.

@DocFrost72

The logic is quite simple actually. He is charging a heavy hitting attack against you. That is very much relevant information to you and thus you're notified.

Since ZOS made it this way, the whole intention part is irrelevant.

The question is - why would you not get notified about a hard hitting attack charging up with you as a target?

DocFrost72 wrote: »

That isn't my idea of a good healthy addition to the game. I'm sorry.

While it's not my goal to persuade you i want to ask you - which part about notifications is not healthy for the game as a whole? Harder ganking negatively effects the health of the game?

DDuke

Dorrino wrote: »

@DDuke

DDuke wrote: »

Anyone using Snipe/Wrecking Blow in general. I haven't seen a "bow ganker" in ages (apart from some low lvl/cp people).

So to be precise either snipe spammer from 30 yards or not a nightblade, because nightblades don't use wb? This is correct?

More or less. I wouldn't use Snipe (not on my bar btw lol) from any closer unless I needed to spawn somewhere else

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What do you mean by "heavy attacks are excluded."?

You don't get notified about them from stealth.

Good to know, I'll take your word for it.

(You might want to add this in the description somewhere).

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, most builds that rely on cloak for combos.

Combos? That rely on cloak?

Are you sure it's not 'would be awesome if that landed, but i'm fine if it's not'?

Because gankers don't 'combo' from cloak, they 'combo' from stealth. And non-ganker stamblades don't rely on that 'combo' to any real extent.

Sneaking doesn't really matter anymore as they removed the sneak damage modifier in Morrowind patch.

The only thing you get is a stun, which you get from cloak anyway if you know what you're doing

Most people don't rely on (or even use) that combo because they don't know how to do it properly. Hell, I'd say half the stamblades don't even know that you can Ambush without breaking cloak.

Unless you know what you're doing, Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack results only in a bit of damage, resources & that's it. If you do it properly however, it results in a stun+off balance as well, which in turn 99% guarantees that the follow-up Incap will land and deal extra dmg (due to off balance) - it's something I've been doing for the past couple of years and I've found it much more deadly than the typical Fear based combos (I don't even have Fear slotted these days).

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mine for example, I use cloak to Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack from cloak for high burst with CC, followed up by Incap.

If the target knows I'm charging a heavy attack, the target just simply blocks/dodges and suddenly my main combo isn't working anymore.

Nothing about this 'combo' is notified within the addon.

Even if i did though, if your opponent doesn't expect that 'combo' within 3 sec of cloak application, he's most likely too inexperienced to benefit from the addon as well.

Gotcha.

That's what most people do, yes (unless they think I'm escaping) - sometimes you have to throw them off by cloaking 2nd time in a row & that's what your addon could've ruined.

Glad to hear it doesn't.

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I'd say it also makes bow builds even less playable than they currently are for stamblades, as you can't Cloak->Lethal Arrow and expect to deal any damage (since opponent will know you're using cloak to cast Lethal Arrow, and not to run away or use some other kind of combo). Being cloaked is one of the very, very few ways you can use that skill (besides ganking) so...

I'd argue that i haven't seen a non-ganker and non-newb using snipe in ages as well, thus i don't think this 'combo' is relevant.

Your addon is certainly not the only thing to blame, but don't you think it might have something to do with it?

DocFrost72

Dorrino wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Dorrino
This addon can tell you if I am possibly using an attack from stealth, before I've even comitted to doing so. That I need to stress this is mind boggling.

@DocFrost72

The logic is quite simple actually. He is charging a heavy hitting attack against you. That is very much relevant information to you and thus you're notified.

Since ZOS made it this way, the whole intention part is irrelevant.

The question is - why would you not get notified about a hard hitting attack charging up with you as a target?

DocFrost72 wrote: »

That isn't my idea of a good healthy addition to the game. I'm sorry.

While it's not my goal to persuade you i want to ask you - which part about notifications is not healthy for the game as a whole? Harder ganking negatively effects the health of the game?

Regarding the first question: because I didn't see it? I know it sounds overly simple but, the logic is that if you're not paging attention, that is supposed to be a capitalizable element of your opponent's experience. Ie, don't check behind you? You're going to get hit from there. This addon tells you of attacks you cannot possibly see. I don't agree with that aspect.

Regarding your second question, see my first post:

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Dorrino


And in case anyone is concerned I support ganking with no counterplay; this adDon will tell you if the sorc behind you, out of stealth, that you never saw, pressed a button and is about to fire a crystal frag.

That isn't my idea of a good healthy addition to the game. I'm sorry.

Basically, in an attempt to balance ganking (or so I've been told was your intention, please correct me if wrong!) you affected elements of the game that didn't involve nightblades or ganking at all. A bit of a hyperbole, but you treated a broken arm with arm full body cast.

THAT is what I say is unhealthy.

SirDopey

cyx54tc wrote: »

Just did some testing with my friend, and it seems like that addon is able to detect player even if they never get out of stealth state.

Scenario tested: I am in stealth state and I use snipe. The moment I channel the spell my friend receives a warning about me sniping him. Even if I cancel the skill immediately after cast with block, which allows me to stay in stealth and not reveal myseal. The addon is able to detect it.

Same thing with Ambush. The moment I used ambush the addon detects it, even if I canceled it and stayed in stealth.

Some ppl have been saying that we have over estimated what the addon can do, but able to detect players directed spell even if they never get out of stealth state looks broken to me.


Edit:
Just to make this more clear. The addon is able to detect direct spells even if the spell was never fired (canceled) and the player never get out of stealth. If you don't have the addon you won't see or hear a thing.

Doesn't the game's music also change though when you do the same? That's how I've always known I'm about to be ganked

STEVIL

Dorrino wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Dorrino
This addon can tell you if I am possibly using an attack from stealth, before I've even comitted to doing so. That I need to stress this is mind boggling.

@DocFrost72

The logic is quite simple actually. He is charging a heavy hitting attack against you. That is very much relevant information to you and thus you're notified.

Since ZOS made it this way, the whole intention part is irrelevant.

The question is - why would you not get notified about a hard hitting attack charging up with you as a target?

DocFrost72 wrote: »

That isn't my idea of a good healthy addition to the game. I'm sorry.

While it's not my goal to persuade you i want to ask you - which part about notifications is not healthy for the game as a whole? Harder ganking negatively effects the health of the game?

You seem to be admitting that the add-on provides notifications that make the ganking harder?

So i would humbly submit that the ability to create private advantages outside of the game that help against playstyles one does not like is "negatively" going to impact the health of the game.

Just because some folks think ganking is bad does not mean they should be able to go outside of the game and use things that help them against ganking.

i mean, replace the G in GANKING with a T and ask yourself if a private add-on made for other players TANKING harder, would that be good for the game?

What if a private add-on was created that helped you accurately set the delay between a light attack and ability weave so that it always landed separated by .27s just after the block .25s timing went off so it maximized the stamina drain on the tank? (iirc the cycle time of the stamina cost for block is now .25s)

or is tanking PVP style play an "ok" playstyle so that making it harder thru private add-ons is not as acceptable as the ones making ganking harder?

qsnoopyjr

Aisle9 wrote: »

cyx54tc wrote: »

Just did some testing with my friend, and it seems like that addon is able to detect player even if they never get out of stealth state.

Scenario tested: I am in stealth state and I use snipe. The moment I channel the spell my friend receives a warning about me sniping him. Even if I cancel the skill immediately after cast with block, which allows me to stay in stealth and not reveal myseal. The addon is able to detect it.

Same thing with Ambush. The moment I used ambush the addon detects it, even if I canceled it and stayed in stealth.

Some ppl have been saying that we have over estimated what the addon can do, but able to detect players directed spell even if they never get out of stealth state looks broken to me.

Wait, wasn't that feature discontinued ? How is this *** still happening ?

An addon, thats on blackmarket.

Not every coder gives away the good stuff to everyone. Some stuff is too good, the only way to keep it contained is by giving it only to certain people.

Malic

At this point, this guy and his addon is 100% on ZOS. They know about and have known about it for sometime and they let it go on.

Its another small piece of evidence that they care very little about PVP. Its to bad, but its been this way for a long time. Best thing to do is hunt him and zerg him over and over and over.

IcyDeadPeople

I dislike that this add on reveals heavy attacks / channel ability cast by stealthed enemies, but there is a separate part of it which is some truly brilliant work by the mod author.

He put a lot of effort into revamping how the UI works for navigating your way around the world. 3D in-game visual icons have been added for every point of interest in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds maps - it's so cleverly done that you no longer need to look at any map or minimap to see where you are going, but it doesn't distract from combat in any way. Very clean presentation, beautiful icons. IMO this feature should be added to the vanilla UI.

@Dorrino no idea if you have any plans for a similar mod which adds 3D icons for the rest of Tamriel, but if you ever need help jotting down the coordinates or whatever, I'd be happy to assist.

Erekon

All these add-ons shouldn't be allowed. You should NOT be notified when someone is attacking and what he is attacking you with. You learn with experience how to counter attacks and know whats happening around you. This addon takes that away from the game. Even the block now and dodge now ( idk what add-ons they are a part of) and all similar stuff should not work in PvP. You better learn when to block and roll dodge by yourself. Using third party 'addons' for it should not be allowed. Why? Because it gives you an unfair advantage.

As for ganking, I don't know whats so difficult in countering gankers. I play on a squishy build with 20k HP and 99% of the time, I survive. I don't even run magelight or a defending bow.
And anyway, whats so wrong with ganking? It's not like gankers have insane damage + insane sustain + insane survivability. They sacrifice sustain and survivability for burst damage and thats fine.