So Miat's PVP addon can detect stealth players even when they are in stealth state?

Dorrino

@DDuke

DDuke wrote: »

More or less. I wouldn't use Snipe (not on my bar btw lol) from any closer unless I needed to spawn somewhere else

Exactly:)

So it's rather irrelevant in terms of pvp advantage in these cases since snipe spammer is safe because distance and ds spammer is not in stealth and is in melee.

DDuke wrote: »

Good to know, I'll take your word for it.

(You might want to add this in the description somewhere).

Just download the addon:) I promise it doesn't bite and 90% of its features have nothing to do with attacks notifications.

DDuke wrote: »

Unless you know what you're doing, Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack results only in a bit of damage, resources & that's it. If you do it properly however, it results in a stun+off balance as well, which in turn 99% guarantees that the follow-up Incap will land and deal extra dmg (due to off balance) - it's something I've been doing for the past couple of years and I've found it much more deadly than the typical Fear based combos (I don't even have Fear slotted these days).

But you choose to rely that your opponent is bad, because anybody decent with predict both 1st and 2nd cloak attack.

And nothing in this 'combo' even requires the heavy attack. You can even put off-balanced on the target with cc immunity.

DDuke wrote: »

Your addon is certainly not the only thing to blame, but don't you think it might have something to do with it?

That requires a significant rebalance of bow, which ZOS won't do anytime soon, if ever:)

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Regarding the first question: because I didn't see it? I know it sounds overly simple but, the logic is that if you're not paging attention, that is supposed to be a capitalizable element of your opponent's experience. Ie, don't check behind you? You're going to get hit from there. This addon tells you of attacks you cannot possibly see. I don't agree with that aspect.

@DocFrost72

It still is. The fact of the attack is. Will you agree that attacking from behind doesn't happen 1v1 and we're talking about somebody already capitalizing on their target to be occupied with fighting other people?

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Basically, in an attempt to balance ganking (or so I've been told was your intention, please correct me if wrong!) you affected elements of the game that didn't involve nightblades or ganking at all. A bit of a hyperbole, but you treated a broken arm with arm full body cast.
THAT is what I say is unhealthy.

it was never an attempt to balance ganking. It was an attempt to provide clear notifications about important attacks against the player. Stealth ganking, sorcs frags, javelins are just some of the important attacks that are otherwise much harder to notice.

My idea always was - it that happens tomy character i need to know what it is, thus the addon.

And thus my question to you, why would you not want to know what is going on with your character with the highest precision and clarity possible? And, especially, why it's bad for the game as a whole?

@STEVIL

STEVIL wrote: »

You seem to be admitting that the add-on provides notifications that make the ganking harder?

You tell me. I don't gank. I assume people who affectionately complain are ganking and higher awareness of their targets frustrates them.

STEVIL wrote: »

So i would humbly submit that the ability to create private advantages outside of the game that help against playstyles one does not like is "negatively" going to impact the health of the game.

As i outlined above (and many times before that) the addon doesn't give advantages over those who don't run it. And it has nothing to do with my likes or dislikes. I added to notifications literally everything i could add that i find important to know about.

STEVIL wrote: »

Just because some folks think ganking is bad does not mean they should be able to go outside of the game and use things that help them against ganking.

And again, 'some folk' want to know what's going on with their character. The default UI was lacking there, so 'some folk' augmented the default UI for better clarity and awareness. And shared their augmented UI with all other folk, so the other folk could use it as well if they liked it.

STEVIL wrote: »

i mean, replace the G in GANKING with a T and ask yourself if a private add-on made for other players TANKING harder, would that be good for the game?

The goal was not to make anything harder. The goal was to make easier to notice stuff relevant to the player himself.

None of the attacks are (nor could be) affected. On the contrary it turns out 'some folk' heavily relied on the shortcomings of the default UI as the basis of their pvp playstyle. This is unfortunate, but can't serve as a justification to prevent making the UI better.

STEVIL wrote: »

What if a private add-on was created that helped you accurately set the delay between a light attack and ability weave so that it always landed separated by .27s just after the block .25s timing went off so it maximized the stamina drain on the tank? (iirc the cycle time of the stamina cost for block is now .25s)

Addons can't press buttons for you. But it's certainly possible to make an addon what will teach you to minimize these delays. I even made a draft of such an addon, but abandoned it because i got bored.

So an addon that teaches you to anim cancel would be an awesome addition to the game, that i hope somebody will do in the future.

STEVIL wrote: »

or is tanking PVP style play an "ok" playstyle so that making it harder thru private add-ons is not as acceptable as the ones making ganking harder?

Literally any playstyle is ok in my book. After all it's not me having that playstyle. On my end i try to make sure that no matter what the playstyle is, the player should be aware about what that playstyle do to him. As simple as that.

JackDaniell

This add on is crap, it's like free hand holding help. Ultimate low skill replacement add on.

xblackroxe

Royaji wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Why is this addon still allowed?

It clearly provides the users a distinct in game advantage and actually even affects build diversity as people can't build around heavy attacks or any channeled skill for example

If I manage to cloak, a person not using this addon doesn't know if I'm running away or charging up a heavy attack.

A person using this addon will know exactly what I'm doing & react to it, making many builds actually unplayable vs people using this addon.

Stop crying and adapt

I will, by moving to another game that allows me to actually play a stealthy rogue character.

That game won't be released for another couple of years however, so I'd rather just have this one be playable for the time being though

Stealthy rogues have a serious issue, they are only fun for the player himself. There is nothing enjoyable in getting ganked in one combo or fighting a stealthy archer who keeps kiting you and disappearing the moment something goes wrong. This playstyle only works for solo-games.

I really wish ZOS would discourage gank even more (and they are doing a good job with it) but give nightblades and bow some changes to make them viable through different means. Maybe a nerf (or flat out removal) to impen or some viable CC options for bow so they can actually stay in range...

There are plenty of counters to stealthers in this game, perhaps more counters than towards any other build archetype.

Also, with sneak attack modifier removed in last patch and proc sets on their way out, it remains to be seen if instagibs will be a thing anymore.


That said, there's always ways to fix/improve the stealth system (I've made half a dozen threads regarding the subject over the past three years).

One big, important change would be adding some kind of faint visual cues as to where a stealther is moving, so you can aim AoE there & atleast try to hit them (rather than just get lucky).

I feel that would add a necessary counter to cloak spam and would especially make NB vs NB fights more enjoyable.


...though I'd kinda like to see 100% invisibility in a non-spammable ultimate form, e.g. they could revamp Veil/Bolstering Darkness to give invisibility when cast.

Most of the counters to stealth are extremely situational. They either take a valuable skill slot (looking at you, camo hunter...) or force you to not use pots (45 seconds cooldown is a long time). We do not have access to a lot of skill slots and giving up one of them to deal with those stealthy *** instead of having a real skill you can use in a fight with a proper opponent is not fun.

I like your idea of removing complete invisibility but this might make stealth pretty much useless and we do not need all the salty NB tears on the forums, they were nerfed hard enough...

Counter situational? What?

jabs, spears, ror
volatile armor, engulfing/noxious
hurricane/boundless, streak
path, sap

Wouldn´t really call those skills situational or skills that take a slot instead of something better but ok.

Dorrino

@STEVIL

Really didn't notice this post of yours.

STEVIL wrote: »

This is funny.

Ok so i never said anything about what info i wanted in the APi or out of the API, so the "provide stuff STEVIL doesn;t like" is a straw man you somehow felt needed to be the first thing you relied on.

man, thats telling.

Besides general impersonal stance of 'we need to police addons for the greater good', you're taking a very personal stance against some features of my addon, thus my remark:) No offence meant.

STEVIL wrote: »

Regarding the bold, while you are patting yourself on the back, you make my point for me. it wasn't you creating your add-on but your releasing your add-on publically that led to the triggered firestorm that brought all this to such a point that ZOS acted.

Had your add-on stayed behind privacy, maybe only used by a guild who did not make it known, or is like any number of other add-ons out there now doing the same with different as of yet "unrealized against their design intent" aspects, it would likely be still going stgrong with all its original features mostly intact.

This might be correct, though some people in my 'private circle' would definitely inform the world about the atrocities we're doing:)

STEVIL wrote: »

As for the italics, i draw distinction between players whose real-life skills make them able to write add-ons for themselves and those who real-life skills do not.

As i said clearly, if the competitive environment of this game were to be one where to be really competitive you needs to be a programmer of private add-ons, that shoudl have been listed in the requirements somewhere prior to purchase.

And i'm telling you time after time that even though people DO have private addons, there's nothing in those addons that can give important and clear pvp advantage for everybody.

Ask a question about a feature you suspect might be there and i'll answer you if it's possible to have that feature within the API.

Example answers:

- It's not possible to know enemy player position, heading, resources or buffs using the addons.

- It's not possible to know if an enemy player noticed you if he never attacks you in any shape or form.

- It's not possible to know what gear enemy or friendly player is wearing unless that gear procs some effect on you (good or bad).

- It's not possible to know enemy or friendly players cp allocation at all (besides friendly arcane well).

- it's not possible to know enemy or friendly players skills on the bars unless they use those skills on you.

What else can be there in those ominous private addons that might be of any concern to the other players?:)

STEVIL wrote: »

As for the bold - Sorry but, let me ask clearly to you - are you disputing the Op claim that with miats you would be notified of a started and cancelled attack even if there would not have been an audible cue without miats?

You will be notified about a started attack only. Regardless of cues.

STEVIL wrote: »

if you agree that the miats warns of an attack even before an audible cue would have gone, then you are admitting to an advantage.

Advantage over myself without the addon? Definitely, that's what addons are about.

Advantage over another player without the addon? Nope.

STEVIL wrote: »

you say this"This is exactly what it is as far as ESO addons are concerned. ESO API is a heavily sandboxed environment. Whatever in there is what ZOS intended to allow in the addons. ZOS make mistakes, but that doesn't undermine their intentions."

That was in response to mesaying "or is the definition being used simply a case of "whatever is allowed" is fine? "

But see, you are wrong again.

The idea of "an exploit" is clearly ensconced in this game. Just because something "can be done" does not mean it is fine for players to do this.

While this is a shaky subject, i'd argue it's not the case in terms of addons.

Because addons cannot effect the game. Only the ui. And i'd argue that you can't exploit the ui. It's about knowledge. Not the actions. My addon never did anything for the player. It only informed the player and it was up to him to perform proper actions.

This is your major weak point.

You equate addons with game exploits, while these 2 are clearly separate.

STEVIL wrote: »

The fact that the APi was changed after miats went public supports both those points - that what is allowed is not always fair or intended and that public scrutiny is a key element to policing these issues.

it was both fair and intended until my addon put that information in a clear form.

Your argument is basically a hindsight. Like 'in a hindsight i didn't mean to marry her':) No you did, you very much did. And only after some time passed you realized that it wasn't the best decision.

In the same manner ZOS intended to have all that information in the game client. And only after some events they realized that probably that wasn't the best idea.

Unlike exploits who never was explicitly programmed to work the way they were.

You can't say that zos provided info about all players around you with no intention to provide the info about all the players around you:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Do you use any private add-ons (onesthat are not publicly available on ESOUI)?

I have 2-3 addons in various stages of development (i.e. not ready). You want me to release them at once or to delete them from my hard drive?:P

DocFrost72

@Dorrino

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I will give you one major compliment: being open and engaging in discussion with community members who have concerns about your add on says a lot (positively) about your intentions.

I'm afraid, however, we don't see eye to eye on a few things.

To answer your questions, firstly no; I would not say attacking from behind is only related to engaging Xv1. An example: My alliance breeches the front door to a keep. I am late to the party, and they are all already on the front porch. I am entering the open front door just as a defender of an enemy alliance arrives, sees me, and throws a javelin.

I am not engaged with anyone at that time, I will be hit by that javelin though assuming I am too focused on the fight ahead of me. This is where I disagree with you. I would not deny my enemy the benefit he deserves to catching me unaware or otherwise making a mistake. Had I turned and saw him? Had I reflexively roll dodged into the keep to avoid such a thing, I would have been acting cautiously. My mistake was his benefit, and he hits me with a stun (and likely gap closer), a reward for my single mindedness and innatentiveness.

Unless, respectfully, I have your addon. Then I don't NEED to be mindful. I can trust that a program is running to replace my situational awareness.

If that were base game, there would be no discussion whatsoever. Yes, I still need to physically block/dodge that attack. But I would not have without that addon. And, to be blunt, not everyone can access this add on (I can, I am abstaining on principle- even at the risk of putting myself at a disadvantage.)

So, to specifically and clearly answer the question following:

"-why would you not want to know what is going on with your character with the highest precision and clarity possible? And, especially, why it's bad for the game as a whole?

I will say that in my view, the reason I would not want omniscient information transferred to me is, simply put, that in my opinion, it removes a degree of skill and tactic from the game. I don't have to be situationally aware when I run this addon. I don't enjoy the thought of that. I understand that may well get me killed, but it will be because of my mistake, not of someone else's, or a program's fault.

If you don't agree, that is totally fine. It is just my opinion, after all.

ofSunhold

Man @Dorrino takes a lot of crap for this add-on. I wonder how many are actually using it? You'd find it doesn't make you immortal, but it does help a lot when you're riding from keep to keep if you're the type to get lost easily. those 3D markers. It also does a little choir of angels sound when you get in range of a friendly FC. And other useful stuff.

Dear Ganker, did you know that when you tab target me the battle music suddenly blares in my ears? I'd be willing to test if this is true if you snipe/cancel, but I bet it is. I know you're there. I don't know where there, and because I've built specifically to weather stamblades, it's possible I don't care either, but I do know. There's only so much sneakysneaky you can have and also attack me.

Know why I'm not going to dodge roll every time? I can probably take the hit, and I have like 18k stamina. I'm not wasting it on that. So sometimes I die to the fast burst combo even though I know it's coming.

If you're on PC, download the add-on and see exactly what it does and doesn't do. Just like playing on a different class, it will give you the info and insight to counter it. However you feel about it, I don't think this genie will go back in the bottle.

SodanTok

NBrookus wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Judas Helviaryn wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

This addon represents everything that is wrong with the game.

Really? I thought it was the toxic community, inconsistent patch jobs, and inexorable dumbing down of game mechanics.

Guess that's just me.

Addon by toxic author for many toxic 1vX and scrubs dumbing down open world positioning mechanics and required skill for longer than half year without any sign of patch to remove that part from API not even some reaction from ZoS. Did I get it right?

There was a reaction. ZOS reviewed the API and made some changes to limit the function of the add-on, and by inaction gave blessing to the rest of it.

As long as there is an audio warning of an attack, there's no reason there should not also be a visual warning permitted. If the intention of the designers was to permit players to one-shot each other from stealth with no counterplay, the audio warning wouldn't be there in the first place.

Does it suck when someone dodges all your attacks? Yes, yes it does. This hurts non-gankers trying to defend against a gankblade more than it does the gankers.

Thats the thing. After uproar over antistealth mechanics ZoS changed api to remove them. Then came uproar after projectile/gap close warning mechanics and ZoS WAS SILENT the whole time (since homestead I think?). That is not reaction, that is avoiding the question: If this cheat addon has their blessing or if they are just very lazy/unable to fix it.

This is not stealth issue at all. It hurts all over the place and is annoying. It usually takes like 3-4 targets for me to finally get some heavy attack resources back, because those 2-3 before dodged it usually even mid channel. Half the 1vX on EU are running it like boss, always jumping into zerg for some 1vX action and then getting away with very precise dodge rolls that dodge only CC/nukes and not waste too much stamina. Sorcs are the most obvious one, maximizing effectivity of dodge rolls on low stam build completely changes how these builds work under pressure.

Even if by some reason this becomes allowed, the advantage is so huge it should be implemented to everyone asap and properly balance builds that are hurt by it most.

DDuke

Dorrino wrote: »

@DDuke

DDuke wrote: »

More or less. I wouldn't use Snipe (not on my bar btw lol) from any closer unless I needed to spawn somewhere else

Exactly:)

So it's rather irrelevant in terms of pvp advantage in these cases since snipe spammer is safe because distance and ds spammer is not in stealth and is in melee.

To be clear, I don't mind this addon showing a notification for Wrecking Blows (as long as they're not from stealth) - anyone with eyes can see that so it doesn't really affect gameplay.

As for Snipe... It's irrelevant but not for that reason. It's irrelevant because bow ganking deals garbage damage these days & is unlikely do get kills even if you do land a Snipe.

If bow ever were to become relevant again, then this addon could significantly harm it.

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Good to know, I'll take your word for it.

(You might want to add this in the description somewhere).

Just download the addon:) I promise it doesn't bite and 90% of its features have nothing to do with attacks notifications.

Yeah, I noticed it has some other nice parts that don't provide a combat advantage to anyone - I still don't like the attack notifications portion, but maybe I'll give the other features a shot.

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Unless you know what you're doing, Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack results only in a bit of damage, resources & that's it. If you do it properly however, it results in a stun+off balance as well, which in turn 99% guarantees that the follow-up Incap will land and deal extra dmg (due to off balance) - it's something I've been doing for the past couple of years and I've found it much more deadly than the typical Fear based combos (I don't even have Fear slotted these days).

But you choose to rely that your opponent is bad, because anybody decent with predict both 1st and 2nd cloak attack.

And nothing in this 'combo' even requires the heavy attack. You can even put off-balanced on the target with cc immunity.

Well, it really depends. I do land that quite often against actual good players as well - it often gets predicted (especially if I try with one cloak), but you can really throw off your opponents by cloaking a couple of times - they either spend the whole time blocking/dodging while I regen stamina in cloak, or they drop their defense & I land the combo, either way I stand to benefit.

Heavy Attack is just the most efficient thing to do while cloaked, both resource & damage wise - it's not "required" but it does add quite a lot of burst - the main idea is that you deal maximum amount of damage and apply a CC without "wasting" GCDs by not dealing damage (e.g. Fear).

But it's more of a preference thing really, you'll do better vs S&B builds (or anyone who can afford holding block a lot) with Fear combos.

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Your addon is certainly not the only thing to blame, but don't you think it might have something to do with it?

That requires a significant rebalance of bow, which ZOS won't do anytime soon, if ever:)

Yes, I'm afraid so. But if they do rebalance bow and want it to work, they'd have to keep your addon in mind though (either by restricting API or making Snipe instant cast or something)

Dorrino

@DocFrost72

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Dorrino

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I will give you one major compliment: being open and engaging in discussion with community members who have concerns about your add on says a lot (positively) about your intentions.

And i want to thank you for participating in this discussion in a polite and civil manner.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

To answer your questions, firstly no; I would not say attacking from behind is only related to engaging Xv1. An example: My alliance breeches the front door to a keep. I am late to the party, and they are all already on the front porch. I am entering the open front door just as a defender of an enemy alliance arrives, sees me, and throws a javelin.

I am not engaged with anyone at that time, I will be hit by that javelin though assuming I am too focused on the fight ahead of me. This is where I disagree with you. I would not deny my enemy the benefit he deserves to catching me unaware or otherwise making a mistake. Had I turned and saw him? Had I reflexively roll dodged into the keep to avoid such a thing, I would have been acting cautiously. My mistake was his benefit, and he hits me with a stun (and likely gap closer), a reward for my single mindedness and innatentiveness.

I understand your example. But shouldn't it be your choice? To be punished for lack of awareness or not (or not too much).

This whole example makes this punishment a beneficial thing. Something you'd want to be in the game. Wouldn't a choice of not using attacks notification from my addon (while having other features on, trust me they are awesome) allow you to get punished in the way you prefer to be?

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Unless, respectfully, I have your addon. Then I don't NEED to be mindful. I can trust that a program is running to replace my situational awareness.

While my addon notifies about a lot of things it doesn't cover a lot of other important things to be aware about. Thus this statement is incorrect. You still need to be very much mindful about your surroundings, it's just that some of the things happening to you have nice clear notifications in your ui.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

If that were base game, there would be no discussion whatsoever. Yes, I still need to physically block/dodge that attack. But I would not have without that addon. And, to be blunt, not everyone can access this add on (I can, I am abstaining on principle- even at the risk of putting myself at a disadvantage.)

Please try it. Disable the attacks notifications if you won't want to use them:)

And no, everybody who desires so can get my addon, there's zero accessibility inequality about it.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I will say that in my view, the reason I would not want omniscient information transferred to me is, simply put, that in my opinion, it removes a degree of skill and tactic from the game. I don't have to be situationally aware when I run this addon. I don't enjoy the thought of that. I understand that may well get me killed, but it will be because of my mistake, not of someone else's, or a program's fault.

If you don't agree, that is totally fine. It is just my opinion, after all.

it feels to me that you like many other people both overestimate and underestimate what my addon does.

It's not a solution to everything. Not even close. It's just a very useful convenience that instead of taking away some important part of pvp experience, enhances it by quite a bit. Just ilke my cc tracker.

DocFrost72

Dorrino wrote: »

@DocFrost72

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Dorrino

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I will give you one major compliment: being open and engaging in discussion with community members who have concerns about your add on says a lot (positively) about your intentions.

And i want to thank you for participating in this discussion in a polite and civil manner.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

To answer your questions, firstly no; I would not say attacking from behind is only related to engaging Xv1. An example: My alliance breeches the front door to a keep. I am late to the party, and they are all already on the front porch. I am entering the open front door just as a defender of an enemy alliance arrives, sees me, and throws a javelin.

I am not engaged with anyone at that time, I will be hit by that javelin though assuming I am too focused on the fight ahead of me. This is where I disagree with you. I would not deny my enemy the benefit he deserves to catching me unaware or otherwise making a mistake. Had I turned and saw him? Had I reflexively roll dodged into the keep to avoid such a thing, I would have been acting cautiously. My mistake was his benefit, and he hits me with a stun (and likely gap closer), a reward for my single mindedness and innatentiveness.

I understand your example. But should it be your choice? To be punished for lack of awareness or not (or not too much).

This whole example makes this punishment a beneficial thing. Something you'd want to be in the game. Wouldn't a choice of not using attacks notification from my addon (while having other features on, trust me they are awesome) allow you to get punished in the way you prefer to be?

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Unless, respectfully, I have your addon. Then I don't NEED to be mindful. I can trust that a program is running to replace my situational awareness.

While my addon notifies about a lot of things it doesn't cover a lot of other important things to be aware about. Thus this statement is incorrect. You still need to be very much mindful about your surroundings, it's just that some of the things happening to you have nice clear notifications in your ui.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

If that were base game, there would be no discussion whatsoever. Yes, I still need to physically block/dodge that attack. But I would not have without that addon. And, to be blunt, not everyone can access this add on (I can, I am abstaining on principle- even at the risk of putting myself at a disadvantage.)

Please try it. Disable the attacks notifications if you won't want to use them:)

And no, everybody who desires so, can get my addon, there's zero accessibility inequality about it.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I will say that in my view, the reason I would not want omniscient information transferred to me is, simply put, that in my opinion, it removes a degree of skill and tactic from the game. I don't have to be situationally aware when I run this addon. I don't enjoy the thought of that. I understand that may well get me killed, but it will be because of my mistake, not of someone else's, or a program's fault.

If you don't agree, that is totally fine. It is just my opinion, after all.

it feels to me that you like many other people both overestimate and underestimate what my addon does.

It's not a solution to everything. Not even close. It's just a very useful convenience that instead of taking away some important part of pvp experience, enhances it by quite a bit. Just ilke my cc tracker.

I have seen your addon firsthand on PvP streams, and I openly admit I was tempted to run the flag bit, cause that alone is SO cool! But, I'm afraid I'm hampered by my own principle here.

And I suppose I should restate it, as you're correct: this addon won't make me bulletproof. In the example I gave though, if I'm pug visioning and not paying attention, your addon would save me from a hard CC and the follow up. I'm just of the opinion that I would not deserve to be spared that.

As for inequality of download, you are again correct in definition and on paper, but the results are different in practice. What will the individual that doesn't look at the forums or minion do to download your addon? They may stumble upon it later down the road. May.

That, and you did have it secret while developing it. Kudos to you for making it public (gods, that message is the very definition or irony coming from me), because that was a step towards greater download equality.

The only way you can reach 100% of people with any feature is to not make it an add on, however. There will, invariably, be those "without", so to speak.

I wish you luck in the wilds of Cyrodiil.

Nebthet78

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Detects or not, if you have to use this kind of *** addon, you suck like 5000w vacuum.

I suck like a 5000w vaccuum anyways...... my boyfriend doesn't complain.

Dorrino

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I have seen your addon firsthand on PvP streams, and I openly admit I was tempted to run the flag bit, cause that alone is SO cool! But, I'm afraid I'm hampered by my own principle here.

That's why all addon's features can be turned on and off. It's not even a single addon anymore. It's a collection of pvp related addons that i found cool to have.

I should probably rename it:)

DocFrost72 wrote: »

And I suppose I should restate it, as you're correct: this addon won't make me bulletproof. In the example I gave though, if I'm pug visioning and not paying attention, your addon would save me from a hard CC and the follow up. I'm just of the opinion that I would not deserve to be spared that.

And i understand it very well. That's exactly the thing that if you prefer not to use it, this can't be the reason why everybody else should not use it. On the personal level i understand you and agree with you.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

As for inequality of download, you are again correct in definition and on paper, but the results are different in practice. What will the individual that doesn't look at the forums or minion do to download your addon? They may stumble upon it later down the road. May.

And that's awesome! Pvp in eso is quite complex and takes month if not years to master. I never thought about pvpalerts to be a must have for anybody. If they don't know about it, they are not gonna miss much.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

That, and you did have it secret while developing it. Kudos to you for making it public (gods, that message is the very definition or irony coming from me), because that was a step towards greater download equality.

I never kept it secret. I was just developing it. Like for instance i got a very cool castbar type of addon in the works. Did you know about it? Probably not. But i never kept it a secret:)

In a sense it works the other way around. As soon as it's ready and it's complex enough you, as the developer, want to release it, so other people would test it for you.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

The only way you can reach 100% of people with any feature is to not make it an add on, however. There will, invariably, be those "without", so to speak.

I wish you luck in the wilds of Cyrodiil.

People are different and choose to customize their interface in the way they find the best. Some people find my addon distracting. We can't force them to use it to achieve 100% equality, can we?:)

Roovin

People who use this add-on really aren't all that good at PvP

xblackroxe

Roovin wrote: »

People who use this add-on really aren't all that good at PvP

EVERYONE that generalizes is bad at discussing

STEVIL

Dorrino wrote: »

@STEVIL

Really didn't notice this post of yours.

STEVIL wrote: »

This is funny.

Ok so i never said anything about what info i wanted in the APi or out of the API, so the "provide stuff STEVIL doesn;t like" is a straw man you somehow felt needed to be the first thing you relied on.

man, thats telling.

Besides general impersonal stance of 'we need to police addons for the greater good', you're taking a very personal stance against some features of my addon, thus my remark:) No offence meant.

STEVIL wrote: »

Regarding the bold, while you are patting yourself on the back, you make my point for me. it wasn't you creating your add-on but your releasing your add-on publically that led to the triggered firestorm that brought all this to such a point that ZOS acted.

Had your add-on stayed behind privacy, maybe only used by a guild who did not make it known, or is like any number of other add-ons out there now doing the same with different as of yet "unrealized against their design intent" aspects, it would likely be still going stgrong with all its original features mostly intact.

This might be correct, though some people in my 'private circle' would definitely inform the world about the atrocities we're doing:)

STEVIL wrote: »

As for the italics, i draw distinction between players whose real-life skills make them able to write add-ons for themselves and those who real-life skills do not.

As i said clearly, if the competitive environment of this game were to be one where to be really competitive you needs to be a programmer of private add-ons, that shoudl have been listed in the requirements somewhere prior to purchase.

And i'm telling you time after time that even though people DO have private addons, there's nothing in those addons that can give important and clear pvp advantage for everybody.

Ask a question about a feature you suspect might be there and i'll answer you if it's possible to have that feature within the API.

Example answers:

- It's not possible to know enemy player position, heading, resources or buffs using the addons.

- It's not possible to know if an enemy player noticed you if he never attacks you in any shape or form.

- It's not possible to know what gear enemy or friendly player is wearing unless that gear procs some effect on you (good or bad).

- It's not possible to know enemy or friendly players cp allocation at all (besides friendly arcane well).

- it's not possible to know enemy or friendly players skills on the bars unless they use those skills on you.

What else can be there in those ominous private addons that might be of any concern to the other players?:)

STEVIL wrote: »

As for the bold - Sorry but, let me ask clearly to you - are you disputing the Op claim that with miats you would be notified of a started and cancelled attack even if there would not have been an audible cue without miats?

You will be notified about a started attack only. Regardless of cues.

STEVIL wrote: »

if you agree that the miats warns of an attack even before an audible cue would have gone, then you are admitting to an advantage.

Advantage over myself without the addon? Definitely, that's what addons are about.

Advantage over another player without the addon? Nope.

STEVIL wrote: »

you say this"This is exactly what it is as far as ESO addons are concerned. ESO API is a heavily sandboxed environment. Whatever in there is what ZOS intended to allow in the addons. ZOS make mistakes, but that doesn't undermine their intentions."

That was in response to mesaying "or is the definition being used simply a case of "whatever is allowed" is fine? "

But see, you are wrong again.

The idea of "an exploit" is clearly ensconced in this game. Just because something "can be done" does not mean it is fine for players to do this.

While this is a shaky subject, i'd argue it's not the case in terms of addons.

Because addons cannot effect the game. Only the ui. And i'd argue that you can't exploit the ui. It's about knowledge. Not the actions. My addon never did anything for the player. It only informed the player and it was up to him to perform proper actions.

This is your major weak point.

You equate addons with game exploits, while these 2 are clearly separate.

STEVIL wrote: »

The fact that the APi was changed after miats went public supports both those points - that what is allowed is not always fair or intended and that public scrutiny is a key element to policing these issues.

it was both fair and intended until my addon put that information in a clear form.

Your argument is basically a hindsight. Like 'in a hindsight i didn't mean to marry her':) No you did, you very much did. And only after some time passed you realized that it wasn't the best decision.

In the same manner ZOS intended to have all that information in the game client. And only after some events they realized that probably that wasn't the best idea.

Unlike exploits who never was explicitly programmed to work the way they were.

You can't say that zos provided info about all players around you with no intention to provide the info about all the players around you

STEVIL wrote: »

Do you use any private add-ons (onesthat are not publicly available on ESOUI)?

I have 2-3 addons in various stages of development (i.e. not ready). You want me to release them at once or to delete them from my hard drive?:P

Exploiter'sRationale at its finest - if they did not mean for me to do thus, they would not have written code that alkowed it.

By the same logic, the guy who sold you gasoline and a bic lighter meant for you to burn down your neighbors house.

By the same logic, when they wrote the cider for the banker they meant for it to turn into a survey multiplier.

Same as when they wrote gap closers they meant for them to breach walls.

After all, ZOS designers are flawless and akways firsee all interactions and that is why the basic game conduct rules are get away with everything you can.

Oh wait... Thats not right at all.

But is is an oft repeated excuse by some folks for why they are jystified.

Obvioysly i am not equating add-ons with exploits.

You knew that before you wrote that line.

Obvioysly i am saying that an add-on can be just as exploitive of unanticipated outcomes and intersections of coded elements as any other player options can be.

Just as a olayer can spot and gain an economic advantage from using his new banker to multiply the output from his surveys ad infintium, use it personally for a while and then spread the trick to others he likes and even broadly, so can an add-on writer create an add-on that gains advantage over those who do not have the add-on, use it personally, then possibly spread it to others.

Just as a player can use gap closers to breach walls and gain a strategic advantage over others who dont have them, use it themselves then spread it possibly to others, so can a so can an add-on writer create an add-on that gains advantage over those who do not have the add-on, use it personally, then possibly spread it to others.

If a player without you add-on is more likely to be subject to "offensive routine ABC" than you are with your add-on then you have an advantage over that player as long as "offensive routine ABC" is a valid threat.

Given that this is for competitive play and we have no way of knowing how many other unforseen intersections/impacts are currently being exploited, i think it is not unreasonable to say that if you want this to be a competitive game which is not "programmer favored" then private add-ons should not be allowed in the competitive environments - only public ones.

But i get that there are some folks who think every advantage is fair game (even deflated balls) and so, the odds of consensus are slim and none and slim is still stuck in the battlegrounds queue.

Since i doubt ZOS will ever spend the time to deal with this issue directly, I just wish there was more upfront cautions about the fact that those playing the base game without add-ons **will be at a disadvantage** in the competitive areas of the game. After all even you admit your add-on does what add-ons are meant to do "Advantage over myself without the addon? Definitely, that's what addons are about."

Finally, i must give credit to your dodge about your add-on's impact.

"Because addons cannot effect the game. Only the ui. "

The Ui is the entirety of the game as far as it is what the player knows, controls what the player can interact with, and many times what the player can do. "Only affecting the AI" is like saying you are only affecting the words in a book or the images in a movie but the rest is still there.

That one, i gotta give you props for. it was imaginative as a defense.

Not credible mind you, but imaginative.

So, kudos on that one.

Malic

I mean at this point this thread should be renamed to "parade of idiots"

Youre trying to have a meaningful discussion with this guy? LOL he's trolling you, just like he's trolling you in game.

Wholly smokes, lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxGgnI6kCrs

Cously

I've used the addon and love the features on it. I stopped because it was too much for me in my UI. I rather rely on audio cues. I don't think the addon is a cheat. Just like Raid Notifier it makes up for ZOS' lack of information and excess of visual effects. Ever tanked in trials and have 9 DPS blasting AOEs to your face killing your FPS and sanity? Also the fact the creator published the addon whilst he could just hog it for himself speaks volume. If there is an issue it's on ZOS' to address. If he didn't create it, somebody else would.

Malamar1229

This addon is pure garbage and the fact they allow it.

Dorrino

@STEVIL

STEVIL wrote: »

Exploiter'sRationale at its finest - if they did not mean for me to do thus, they would not have written code that alkowed it.

It's other way around. They meant that and provided the information to the client.

Then after some time they realized that probably they don't mean that anymore. And stopped providing that part of the information they didn't want for clients to have anymore.

Both of their decisions were educated and valid.

People change their opinions. People are not perfect.

But yet again the distinction is that they knew precisely what info they chose to provide to the client.

STEVIL wrote: »

By the same logic, the guy who sold you gasoline and a bic lighter meant for you to burn down your neighbors house.

Nope. By the same logic, the guy gives you a manual how to burn neighbors house with detailed information about the whole process and provides all the necessary tools. Including the result of a legal expertise that states that burning neighbors house is a perfectly legal activity.

And the neighbor himself tells you that he kinda wants the house to be burnt.

STEVIL wrote: »

By the same logic, when they wrote the cider for the banker they meant for it to turn into a survey multiplier.

Since i'm not aware about that part, was it a UI problem or game mechanics problem? If the later it has nothing to do with the addons.

STEVIL wrote: »

Same as when they wrote gap closers they meant for them to breach walls.

Yet again this has nothing to do with the addons, because the ability to gap close on top of the walls didn't come from an addon. It came from an oversight in the game mechanics.

STEVIL wrote: »

After all, ZOS designers are flawless and akways firsee all interactions and that is why the basic game conduct rules are get away with everything you can.

Oh wait... Thats not right at all.

Exactly. And that's why if it's an oversight in the game mechanics they call it an exploit and punish people.

But if it's an oversight in purely UI department they change the API and apologize to the developers whose addons are affected by the change.

STEVIL wrote: »

But is is an oft repeated excuse by some folks for why they are jystified.

For some reason people like you think that other people need excuses to do something they find awesome. This is amusing:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Obvioysly i am not equating add-ons with exploits.

You knew that before you wrote that line.

On the contrary you do exactly that and i'm doing my best to correct your misconceptions:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Obvioysly i am saying that an add-on can be just as exploitive of unanticipated outcomes and intersections of coded elements as any other player options can be.

Just as a olayer can spot and gain an economic advantage from using his new banker to multiply the output from his surveys ad infintium, use it personally for a while and then spread the trick to others he likes and even broadly, so can an add-on writer create an add-on that gains advantage over those who do not have the add-on, use it personally, then possibly spread it to others.

Yet again you can not exploit UI addons like that and this addon in particular does not give your any noticeable advantage over another person who doesn't use this addon.

STEVIL wrote: »

If a player without you add-on is more likely to be subject to "offensive routine ABC" than you are with your add-on then you have an advantage over that player as long as "offensive routine ABC" is a valid threat.

And that advantage is not a combat advantage over that player:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Given that this is for competitive play and we have no way of knowing how many other unforseen intersections/impacts are currently being exploited, i think it is not unreasonable to say that if you want this to be a competitive game which is not "programmer favored" then private add-ons should not be allowed in the competitive environments - only public ones.

Nothing in this game is competitive like that:) Especially Cyrodiil. What is the metrics you use to compete against other players?:)

And yet again what kinda of advantage you expect to be in those 'private addons'?:) Give me an idea, because i need to add more things to pvpalerts.

STEVIL wrote: »

But i get that there are some folks who think every advantage is fair game (even deflated balls) and so, the odds of consensus are slim and none and slim is still stuck in the battlegrounds queue.

There're some folk who enjoy clear informative interface:) There's a reason why the addon is disabled in duels. Yep, exactly so the people measuring their 'skill' against each other wouldn't have yet another thing to complain about:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Since i doubt ZOS will ever spend the time to deal with this issue directly, I just wish there was more upfront cautions about the fact that those playing the base game without add-ons **will be at a disadvantage** in the competitive areas of the game. After all even you admit your add-on does what add-ons are meant to do "Advantage over myself without the addon? Definitely, that's what addons are about."

Since there're no 'competitive areas' in the game, this point of yours is unfortunately moot:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Finally, i must give credit to your dodge about your add-on's impact.

And yet again there's no reason for me to dodge anything here. I'm explaining to you my attitude towards the subject.

STEVIL wrote: »

The Ui is the entirety of the game as far as it is what the player knows, controls what the player can interact with, and many times what the player can do. "Only affecting the AI" is like saying you are only affecting the words in a book or the images in a movie but the rest is still there.

Nope, it's like to say it affects font of the text in the book, it's dimensions and type of paper. This is a different ui for the same content.

STEVIL wrote: »

That one, i gotta give you props for. it was imaginative as a defense.

I think this is the time for you to explain to me what am i defending from:) What are my accusations?:)

altemriel

cyx54tc wrote: »

Just did some testing with my friend, and it seems like that addon is able to detect player even if they never get out of stealth state.

Scenario tested: I am in stealth state and I use snipe. The moment I channel the spell my friend receives a warning about me sniping him. Even if I cancel the skill immediately after cast with block, which allows me to stay in stealth and not reveal myseal. The addon is able to detect it.

Same thing with Ambush. The moment I used ambush the addon detects it, even if I canceled it and stayed in stealth.

Some ppl have been saying that we have over estimated what the addon can do, but able to detect players directed spell even if they never get out of stealth state looks broken to me.


Edit:
Just to make this more clear. The addon is able to detect direct spells even if the spell was never fired (canceled) and the player never get out of stealth. If you don't have the addon you won't see or hear a thing.

Can we get some official statements on this matter?

was this cheater addon not supposed to be fixed by ZOS already (changed the API, so that it does not work anymore)?

[Edited to remove bypassing the Profanity filter]

STEVIL

Dorrino wrote: »

@STEVIL

STEVIL wrote: »

Exploiter'sRationale at its finest - if they did not mean for me to do thus, they would not have written code that alkowed it.

It's other way around. They meant that and provided the information to the client.

Then after some time they realized that probably they don't mean that anymore. And stopped providing that part of the information they didn't want for clients to have anymore.

Both of their decisions were educated and valid.

People change their opinions. People are not perfect.

But yet again the distinction is that they knew precisely what info they chose to provide to the client.

STEVIL wrote: »

By the same logic, the guy who sold you gasoline and a bic lighter meant for you to burn down your neighbors house.

Nope. By the same logic, the guy gives you a manual how to burn neighbors house with detailed information about the whole process and provides all the necessary tools. Including the result of a legal expertise that states that burning neighbors house is a perfectly legal activity.

And the neighbor himself tells you that he kinda wants the house to be burnt.

STEVIL wrote: »

By the same logic, when they wrote the cider for the banker they meant for it to turn into a survey multiplier.

Since i'm not aware about that part, was it a UI problem or game mechanics problem? If the later it has nothing to do with the addons.

STEVIL wrote: »

Same as when they wrote gap closers they meant for them to breach walls.

Yet again this has nothing to do with the addons, because the ability to gap close on top of the walls didn't come from an addon. It came from an oversight in the game mechanics.

STEVIL wrote: »

After all, ZOS designers are flawless and akways firsee all interactions and that is why the basic game conduct rules are get away with everything you can.

Oh wait... Thats not right at all.

Exactly. And that's why if it's an oversight in the game mechanics they call it an exploit and punish people.

But if it's an oversight in purely UI department they change the API and apologize to the developers whose addons are affected by the change.

STEVIL wrote: »

But is is an oft repeated excuse by some folks for why they are jystified.

For some reason people like you think that other people need excuses to do something they find awesome. This is amusing:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Obvioysly i am not equating add-ons with exploits.

You knew that before you wrote that line.

On the contrary you do exactly that and i'm doing my best to correct your misconceptions:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Obvioysly i am saying that an add-on can be just as exploitive of unanticipated outcomes and intersections of coded elements as any other player options can be.

Just as a olayer can spot and gain an economic advantage from using his new banker to multiply the output from his surveys ad infintium, use it personally for a while and then spread the trick to others he likes and even broadly, so can an add-on writer create an add-on that gains advantage over those who do not have the add-on, use it personally, then possibly spread it to others.

Yet again you can not exploit UI addons like that and this addon in particular does not give your any noticeable advantage over another person who doesn't use this addon.

STEVIL wrote: »

If a player without you add-on is more likely to be subject to "offensive routine ABC" than you are with your add-on then you have an advantage over that player as long as "offensive routine ABC" is a valid threat.

And that advantage is not a combat advantage over that player:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Given that this is for competitive play and we have no way of knowing how many other unforseen intersections/impacts are currently being exploited, i think it is not unreasonable to say that if you want this to be a competitive game which is not "programmer favored" then private add-ons should not be allowed in the competitive environments - only public ones.

Nothing in this game is competitive like that:) Especially Cyrodiil. What is the metrics you use to compete against other players?:)

And yet again what kinda of advantage you expect to be in those 'private addons'?:) Give me an idea, because i need to add more things to pvpalerts.

STEVIL wrote: »

But i get that there are some folks who think every advantage is fair game (even deflated balls) and so, the odds of consensus are slim and none and slim is still stuck in the battlegrounds queue.

There're some folk who enjoy clear informative interface:) There's a reason why the addon is disabled in duels. Yep, exactly so the people measuring their 'skill' against each other wouldn't have yet another thing to complain about:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Since i doubt ZOS will ever spend the time to deal with this issue directly, I just wish there was more upfront cautions about the fact that those playing the base game without add-ons **will be at a disadvantage** in the competitive areas of the game. After all even you admit your add-on does what add-ons are meant to do "Advantage over myself without the addon? Definitely, that's what addons are about."

Since there're no 'competitive areas' in the game, this point of yours is unfortunately moot:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Finally, i must give credit to your dodge about your add-on's impact.

And yet again there's no reason for me to dodge anything here. I'm explaining to you my attitude towards the subject.

STEVIL wrote: »

The Ui is the entirety of the game as far as it is what the player knows, controls what the player can interact with, and many times what the player can do. "Only affecting the AI" is like saying you are only affecting the words in a book or the images in a movie but the rest is still there.

Nope, it's like to say it affects font of the text in the book, it's dimensions and type of paper. This is a different ui for the same content.

STEVIL wrote: »

That one, i gotta give you props for. it was imaginative as a defense.

I think this is the time for you to explain to me what am i defending from:) What are my accusations?:)

You acknowledge there can be overdights in game mechanics but stand firm that the API decisions are all educated and valid decisions - amzing.I

The key difference here is i feel wrapping a designer error and a player use of that error to gain advantage is the same animal whether or not that use involves the creation of an add-on or not.

As for your claims about there not being any competitive areas in this game and the rest, well, not a lot worth saying about that.

StormWylf

Whether or not these add-ons should be allowed. Whether or not Zos cares (which frankly is the complaint of the 4 year old, "you don't love me if I don't get what I want"). It doesn't matter if it's a good idea or not. It exists, people are using it and would seem that it ought to be pretty much mandatory if you are going to PvP in a group, otherwise you may very well be gimping your team. Well that's just one opinion.

Dorrino

@STEVIL

STEVIL wrote: »

You acknowledge there can be overdights in game mechanics but stand firm that the API decisions are all educated and valid decisions - amzing.I

Exactly.

Exploits in game mechanics are independent from UI. There's no addon that allows you to gap-close the walls, while default ui doesn't. Nobody intentionally made gap-closing the walls a feature of the game.

While any piece of information provided to the addons is a deliberate and (most of the time) careful choice out of the much large stream of information the client possesses.

Unlike exploits there was no 'omg we didn't know it was possible to do' with the API. All information that i used in pvpalerts (and some other guy used in his group damage addon) was openly available to the addons by the decision of the UI team. They knew it was there.

You might argue that didn't know that the information could be combined in the way i did it, but that would be very much alike to arguing that they gave us some dry wood, pieces of paper and matches and then freaked out at the unexpected campfire:)

To argue that would be to argue that no addons (combinations of things provided by API) should ever be possible, because they are unexpected. But to be perfectly expected the addons should be made by ZOS alone.

Addons are a lego set, by nature. Here are the pieces - now go make something out of them.

STEVIL wrote: »

The key difference here is i feel wrapping a designer error and a player use of that error to gain advantage is the same animal whether or not that use involves the creation of an add-on or not.

You still fail to see that addons are intended to 'give advantage'.

Why would you use a custom buff tracker, but not to be more aware about your buffs? This easily translates into a combat advantage, even if that custom buff tracker just makes the buff icons larger.

Why would you need Master Merchant or Awesome Guild Store, but not to make better choices both buying and selling in-game items? And this is a full blown in-game advantage over the players who don't have these addons.

You somehow try to accept the existence of ui addons in this game only if they are useless:)

You might continue focusing on the 'hidden' addons giving unimaginable advantages over other players, but you fail to provide any example of what those addons could do even after 3rd invitation from me:)

So let me ask again, in the light of our discussion - what exactly is the problem between you and addons?

STEVIL wrote: »

As for your claims about there not being any competitive areas in this game and the rest, well, not a lot worth saying about that.

Well, since alleged competitiveness was one of your key points, this decision of yours is not really clear:)

ShadowProc

Dorrino wrote: »

@DocFrost72

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Dorrino

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I will give you one major compliment: being open and engaging in discussion with community members who have concerns about your add on says a lot (positively) about your intentions.

And i want to thank you for participating in this discussion in a polite and civil manner.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

To answer your questions, firstly no; I would not say attacking from behind is only related to engaging Xv1. An example: My alliance breeches the front door to a keep. I am late to the party, and they are all already on the front porch. I am entering the open front door just as a defender of an enemy alliance arrives, sees me, and throws a javelin.

I am not engaged with anyone at that time, I will be hit by that javelin though assuming I am too focused on the fight ahead of me. This is where I disagree with you. I would not deny my enemy the benefit he deserves to catching me unaware or otherwise making a mistake. Had I turned and saw him? Had I reflexively roll dodged into the keep to avoid such a thing, I would have been acting cautiously. My mistake was his benefit, and he hits me with a stun (and likely gap closer), a reward for my single mindedness and innatentiveness.

I understand your example. But shouldn't it be your choice? To be punished for lack of awareness or not (or not too much).

This whole example makes this punishment a beneficial thing. Something you'd want to be in the game. Wouldn't a choice of not using attacks notification from my addon (while having other features on, trust me they are awesome) allow you to get punished in the way you prefer to be?

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Unless, respectfully, I have your addon. Then I don't NEED to be mindful. I can trust that a program is running to replace my situational awareness.

While my addon notifies about a lot of things it doesn't cover a lot of other important things to be aware about. Thus this statement is incorrect. You still need to be very much mindful about your surroundings, it's just that some of the things happening to you have nice clear notifications in your ui.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

If that were base game, there would be no discussion whatsoever. Yes, I still need to physically block/dodge that attack. But I would not have without that addon. And, to be blunt, not everyone can access this add on (I can, I am abstaining on principle- even at the risk of putting myself at a disadvantage.)

Please try it. Disable the attacks notifications if you won't want to use them:)

And no, everybody who desires so can get my addon, there's zero accessibility inequality about it.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I will say that in my view, the reason I would not want omniscient information transferred to me is, simply put, that in my opinion, it removes a degree of skill and tactic from the game. I don't have to be situationally aware when I run this addon. I don't enjoy the thought of that. I understand that may well get me killed, but it will be because of my mistake, not of someone else's, or a program's fault.

If you don't agree, that is totally fine. It is just my opinion, after all.

it feels to me that you like many other people both overestimate and underestimate what my addon does.

It's not a solution to everything. Not even close. It's just a very useful convenience that instead of taking away some important part of pvp experience, enhances it by quite a bit. Just ilke my cc tracker.

The arrogance.

YOU ARE NOT THE DEVELOPER.

You had no right to decide what play styles you could effect. Some people like to gank and build for it. Also get punished for it when they fail at it.

There are counters designed In the game BY THE DEVELOPERS.

Zos, how is this still allowed? A player is harming other players experiences.

Emma_Overload

Caught Miat using his own add-on tonight. At least he practices what he preaches!

To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Not sure if it's a cheat or not, but it seems kind of shady...

ShadowProc

Dorrino wrote: »

@STEVIL

STEVIL wrote: »

Exploiter'sRationale at its finest - if they did not mean for me to do thus, they would not have written code that alkowed it.

It's other way around. They meant that and provided the information to the client.

Then after some time they realized that probably they don't mean that anymore. And stopped providing that part of the information they didn't want for clients to have anymore.

Both of their decisions were educated and valid.

People change their opinions. People are not perfect.

But yet again the distinction is that they knew precisely what info they chose to provide to the client.

STEVIL wrote: »

By the same logic, the guy who sold you gasoline and a bic lighter meant for you to burn down your neighbors house.

Nope. By the same logic, the guy gives you a manual how to burn neighbors house with detailed information about the whole process and provides all the necessary tools. Including the result of a legal expertise that states that burning neighbors house is a perfectly legal activity.

And the neighbor himself tells you that he kinda wants the house to be burnt.

STEVIL wrote: »

By the same logic, when they wrote the cider for the banker they meant for it to turn into a survey multiplier.

Since i'm not aware about that part, was it a UI problem or game mechanics problem? If the later it has nothing to do with the addons.

STEVIL wrote: »

Same as when they wrote gap closers they meant for them to breach walls.

Yet again this has nothing to do with the addons, because the ability to gap close on top of the walls didn't come from an addon. It came from an oversight in the game mechanics.

STEVIL wrote: »

After all, ZOS designers are flawless and akways firsee all interactions and that is why the basic game conduct rules are get away with everything you can.

Oh wait... Thats not right at all.

Exactly. And that's why if it's an oversight in the game mechanics they call it an exploit and punish people.

But if it's an oversight in purely UI department they change the API and apologize to the developers whose addons are affected by the change.

STEVIL wrote: »

But is is an oft repeated excuse by some folks for why they are jystified.

For some reason people like you think that other people need excuses to do something they find awesome. This is amusing:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Obvioysly i am not equating add-ons with exploits.

You knew that before you wrote that line.

On the contrary you do exactly that and i'm doing my best to correct your misconceptions:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Obvioysly i am saying that an add-on can be just as exploitive of unanticipated outcomes and intersections of coded elements as any other player options can be.

Just as a olayer can spot and gain an economic advantage from using his new banker to multiply the output from his surveys ad infintium, use it personally for a while and then spread the trick to others he likes and even broadly, so can an add-on writer create an add-on that gains advantage over those who do not have the add-on, use it personally, then possibly spread it to others.

Yet again you can not exploit UI addons like that and this addon in particular does not give your any noticeable advantage over another person who doesn't use this addon.

STEVIL wrote: »

If a player without you add-on is more likely to be subject to "offensive routine ABC" than you are with your add-on then you have an advantage over that player as long as "offensive routine ABC" is a valid threat.

And that advantage is not a combat advantage over that player:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Given that this is for competitive play and we have no way of knowing how many other unforseen intersections/impacts are currently being exploited, i think it is not unreasonable to say that if you want this to be a competitive game which is not "programmer favored" then private add-ons should not be allowed in the competitive environments - only public ones.

Nothing in this game is competitive like that:) Especially Cyrodiil. What is the metrics you use to compete against other players?:)

And yet again what kinda of advantage you expect to be in those 'private addons'?:) Give me an idea, because i need to add more things to pvpalerts.

STEVIL wrote: »

But i get that there are some folks who think every advantage is fair game (even deflated balls) and so, the odds of consensus are slim and none and slim is still stuck in the battlegrounds queue.

There're some folk who enjoy clear informative interface:) There's a reason why the addon is disabled in duels. Yep, exactly so the people measuring their 'skill' against each other wouldn't have yet another thing to complain about:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Since i doubt ZOS will ever spend the time to deal with this issue directly, I just wish there was more upfront cautions about the fact that those playing the base game without add-ons **will be at a disadvantage** in the competitive areas of the game. After all even you admit your add-on does what add-ons are meant to do "Advantage over myself without the addon? Definitely, that's what addons are about."

Since there're no 'competitive areas' in the game, this point of yours is unfortunately moot:)

STEVIL wrote: »

Finally, i must give credit to your dodge about your add-on's impact.

And yet again there's no reason for me to dodge anything here. I'm explaining to you my attitude towards the subject.

STEVIL wrote: »

The Ui is the entirety of the game as far as it is what the player knows, controls what the player can interact with, and many times what the player can do. "Only affecting the AI" is like saying you are only affecting the words in a book or the images in a movie but the rest is still there.

Nope, it's like to say it affects font of the text in the book, it's dimensions and type of paper. This is a different ui for the same content.

STEVIL wrote: »

That one, i gotta give you props for. it was imaginative as a defense.

I think this is the time for you to explain to me what am i defending from:) What are my accusations?:)

And how do you know "what the meant" and "was an oversight"?

Whatever helps your rediclous argument. You really are just trolling or egotistical. Did you create this thread on an alternate account to try to be relevant again?

Dymence

The addon allows you to do things that aren't humanly possible. If you 1vX, you are able to dodge attacks (for example: frags, snipe) from people in your blind spot. How can you adamantly defend the fact that the addon supposedly doesn't provide you with an advantage? If there would be anything of the like in another game, would it not be considered cheating?

Dracofyre

these "add-ons" cause lags, i met some veteran players, saying PvP were almost no lag until some cheaters created plug-ins and get laggy after ZOs used add on detection to find cheaters.

i was just doing treasure maps and shard, i was pretty well hidden, and got jumped by 2 daggerfall out of nowhere, on horses, no chances to escape while rooted and stunned back to back chain casting and done in 3 hits, i wonder how they did 12k per hit, that was before i was 50/160 CP dragonknight.

Koensol

@Dorrino Come on man... you are acting like a flailing fish on land. I'm sorry but that is what I picture in my head when I read your posts. This addon allows you to do things players without the addon cannot: See someone charging an attack from INVISIBILITY. Do you know what that term means? It means you cannoy be seen, in case you didn't notice. So how can you blindly and relentlessly keep defending the standpoint this is completely fine? Your argument about "a dangerous attack being casted against me is something I should be aware of" is utterly ridiculous, because the reason for striking from invisibility is to attack with surprise, so the other person doesn't know what is coming, UNTIL I fired the attack. And just because this function is possible in the API, you justify it being fine? This, while completely disregarding all logic and common sense regarding gameplay and stealth mechanics? Those are some really sad arguments right there.

Triumviri

I agree this addon need a to disappear.