Cyrodil PVE/Exploration campaign

MattT1988

Assuming someone that doesn't like PvP is 'cowardly' or 'scared' is so damn childish that your argument loses all credibility when you throw that old chestnut out.

Disliking the PvP in this game does not necessarily mean you are scared of it. Some people simply don't like the PvP in this game. Maybe they:

• dislike ganking playstyle
• dislike zerging playstyle
• can't stand the lag/DCing
• only likes co-op games
• enjoys PvP in other games, but might simply not be interested in it in this game.

Getting really tired of the inaccurate "oh you don't like PvP therefore must be scared of it LOLAZALO ROFLCOPTAAA!!!" argument.

For the original point. I don't believe a PvE Cyrodill is needed. We've got a stack of PvE zones to go nuts in. Let the PvPers have Cyrodill. If anything I'd support completely removing all PvE aspects out of Cyrodill. But probably won't happen.

Artis

Yeah @Menegroth not sure what you still don't understand. He pretty much explained everything. Many people came to PvP namely because of PvE objectives in Cyrodiil. The whole point of having them there is to encourage PvE players to go there and see if they like it.

I myself completed PvE achievements when I didn't know how to PVP (and still don't know) back in 2014 and I keep coming back to Cyrodiil sporadically, because I liked what I saw and sometimes want to participate.

If PvE cyrodiil is added, then there is no chance new players who are for some reason biased or afraid of pvp will try it. So no, it's for the best of the game and everyone (including you) to not separate pve, so that players like myself and tons of others could be brought to PvP. You say people won't touch cyrodiil? Well you are demonstrably wrong. I did go there because of those achievements, for example. Many many other players did. You're saying it wont' affect pvp if you add a pve campaign? How come? Obviously it will if you're cutting off one of the ways of how the population grows.

Just go and do your achievements like a lot of others did. What are you afraid of? That you will die? I died many more times in PvE. If you are a PvE player you do play vMA, vet trials and die hundreds of times there. You will die less while collecting skyshards. You don't need to get them all in 1 sitting either. And if you don't do those things, well, then you aren't a PvEer, you are a just a grinder/farmer, killing things that can't even fight back.

Menegroth

Artis wrote: »

Yeah @Menegroth not sure what you still don't understand. He pretty much explained everything. Many people came to PvP namely because of PvE objectives in Cyrodiil. The whole point of having them there is to encourage PvE players to go there and see if they like it.

I myself completed PvE achievements when I didn't know how to PVP (and still don't know) back in 2014 and I keep coming back to Cyrodiil sporadically, because I liked what I saw and sometimes want to participate.

If PvE cyrodiil is added, then there is no chance new players who are for some reason biased or afraid of pvp will try it. So no, it's for the best of the game and everyone (including you) to not separate pve, so that players like myself and tons of others could be brought to PvP. You say people won't touch cyrodiil? Well you are demonstrably wrong. I did go there because of those achievements, for example. Many many other players did. You're saying it wont' affect pvp if you add a pve campaign? How come? Obviously it will if you're cutting off one of the ways of how the population grows.

Just go and do your achievements like a lot of others did. What are you afraid of? That you will die? I died many more times in PvE. If you are a PvE player you do play vMA, vet trials and die hundreds of times there. You will die less while collecting skyshards. You don't need to get them all in 1 sitting either. And if you don't do those things, well, then you aren't a PvEer, you are a just a grinder/farmer, killing things that can't even fight back.

Are you people even reading the thread or do you simply skip everything in order to repeat the same argument again and again without providing any kind of counter argument to what have been said? Get out of the echo chamber, people. Read, think and, IF you have a valid counter argument, please share.

Forcing people into content they don't want to do in order to complete the content that they do want to partake in is ridiculous. As we've been saying again and again, YOU PVP CYRODIL WILL STILL BE THERE. Has this been said enough times to make it through you people's skulls now? What we want is COMPLETELY SEPARATE PVE CAMPAING. Do you people understand now? It really boggles my mind why you people can't understand something so simple.

What makes you think no new players will ever touch PvP Cyrodil if this is implemented given that YOU PVP CYRODIL WILL STILL BE THERE and you'll still be able to invite guildies there, run them through some content and make them hooked in it, which would provide a much better experience for everyone? Or hell, even petition ZOS for a better way to incentivize people to join PvP. Have you people even thought about that? Have this even crossed your minds at all? Here's just one idea: what about a mentor system in which both the mentor and apprentice gain some rewards for completing objectives in Cyrodil? The objectives and rewards can be discussed to reach the best case scenario. And that's one idea. If you people got out of your butts and thought about it and worked together, I'm sure you'd be able to brainstorm much better solution. But no, it's easier to do nothing, isn't it?

And yes, there are people that won't touch Cyrodil. The fact that you did and that there people that also did does not magicaly erase make people who won't touch Cyrodil from existance. What kind of thinking is that?

As for "what I'm afraid of", please refer to the post above yours. It's really not difficult to understand. Just read.

MattT1988 wrote: »

Assuming someone that doesn't like PvP is 'cowardly' or 'scared' is so damn childish that your argument loses all credibility when you throw that old chestnut out.

Disliking the PvP in this game does not necessarily mean you are scared of it. Some people simply don't like the PvP in this game. Maybe they:

• dislike ganking playstyle
• dislike zerging playstyle
• can't stand the lag/DCing
• only likes co-op games
• enjoys PvP in other games, but might simply not be interested in it in this game.

Getting really tired of the inaccurate "oh you don't like PvP therefore must be scared of it LOLAZALO ROFLCOPTAAA!!!" argument.

Is this clear enough for you people now or will you just skip it entirely once more and use the same ridiculous argument again?

And then there's this gem

Artis wrote: »

And if you don't do those things, well, then you aren't a PvEer, you are a just a grinder/farmer, killing things that can't even fight back.

This is not the case at all for me, but so what if it was? What kind of non-argument is this? How the hell is this relevant in any shape or form on whether a SEPARATE PVE CYRODIL CAMPAING is good for the game or not?

Seriously... You people are really tiredsome...

Cillion3117

Exploration and PVE questing is what brought me to Cyrodil the first time. Now I enjoy PVP.... mostly.

Menegroth

Cillion3117 wrote: »

Exploration and PVE questing is what brought me to Cyrodil the first time. Now I enjoy PVP.... mostly.

Good for you. That's not the case for everyone though. Which is the point we're trying to make since the begining of the thread.

Enodoc

Menegroth wrote: »

Are you people even reading the thread or do you simply skip everything in order to repeat the same argument again and again without providing any kind of counter argument to what have been said? Get out of the echo chamber, people. Read, think and, IF you have a valid counter argument, please share.

Says the person who keeps coming back to repeat the same argument.

Forcing people into content they don't want to do in order to complete the content that they do want to partake in is ridiculous. As we've been saying again and again, YOU PVP CYRODIL WILL STILL BE THERE. Has this been said enough times to make it through you people's skulls now? What we want is COMPLETELY SEPARATE PVE CAMPAING. Do you people understand now? It really boggles my mind why you people can't understand something so simple.

Nobody's disputing the fact that "PvP Cyrodiil" would still be there. The problem is that without the PvE players coming into Cyrodiil, the PvP population will stagnate and/or decline. "PvP Cyrodiil" still being there is completely irrelevant if there are no new players coming into Cyrodiil, and one major source of new players in Cyrodiil are the people who, initially, only went into Cyrodiil for the PvE content.

Artis

Menegroth wrote: »

Are you people even reading the thread or do you simply skip everything in order to repeat the same argument again and again without providing any kind of counter argument to what have been said? Get out of the echo chamber, people. Read, think and, IF you have a valid counter argument, please share.

Forcing people into content they don't want to do in order to complete the content that they do want to partake in is ridiculous. As we've been saying again and again, YOU PVP CYRODIL WILL STILL BE THERE. Has this been said enough times to make it through you people's skulls now? What we want is COMPLETELY SEPARATE PVE CAMPAING. Do you people understand now? It really boggles my mind why you people can't understand something so simple.

What makes you think no new players will ever touch PvP Cyrodil if this is implemented given that YOU PVP CYRODIL WILL STILL BE THERE and you'll still be able to invite guildies there, run them through some content and make them hooked in it, which would provide a much better experience for everyone? Or hell, even petition ZOS for a better way to incentivize people to join PvP. Have you people even thought about that? Have this even crossed your minds at all? Here's just one idea: what about a mentor system in which both the mentor and apprentice gain some rewards for completing objectives in Cyrodil? The objectives and rewards can be discussed to reach the best case scenario. And that's one idea. If you people got out of your butts and thought about it and worked together, I'm sure you'd be able to brainstorm much better solution. But no, it's easier to do nothing, isn't it?

And yes, there are people that won't touch Cyrodil. The fact that you did and that there people that also did does not magicaly erase make people who won't touch Cyrodil from existance. What kind of thinking is that?

As for "what I'm afraid of", please refer to the post above yours. It's really not difficult to understand. Just read.

No, you are the one who needs to read. If there was a separate PVE campaign - a lot of people including myself would've never started PvPing. Forcing people into content is not ridiculous, because it works and does exactly what it's supposed to do. It makes more people try PvP and some people (like me) will stay or come back every now and then. Adding a separate PVE campaign means completely cutting out that channel.

Do you read what you reply to?

There is no better way to incenitivize people. I and many others went there because we had to, because we wanted achievements.

Amadis001

Don't like it. PvE in Cyrodiil is a lot of fun as it is. You can minimize your PvP risk but not eliminate it entirely, which makes questing have a little bit of a different character than questing in the alliance zones. There's always a a need to be a little sneaky and always a chance you'll bump into an enemy player and have to fight or run for it.

Menegroth

Enodoc wrote: »

Says the person who keeps coming back to repeat the same argument.

Precisely. If you people actually understood what's being said, there'd be no need to repeat myself.

Enodoc wrote: »

Nobody's disputing the fact that "PvP Cyrodiil" would still be there. The problem is that without the PvE players coming into Cyrodiil, the PvP population will stagnate and/or decline. "PvP Cyrodiil" still being there is completely irrelevant if there are no new players coming into Cyrodiil, and one major source of new players in Cyrodiil are the people who, initially, only went into Cyrodiil for the PvE content.

Since apparently it's never clear enough, the reason why I make clear that PvP Cyrodil will still be there is so you people understand that it will still be possible, even desirable, to bring new players there.

And stop kidding yourselves. The vast majority of people that PvP are people that already wanted to do so from the start. PvErs turned PvPers are the minority, whether you like it or not.

And if your PvP can't stop bleeding players that it needs a constant influx of forced PvE players in hopes that some percentage of those stay, the problem with PvP lies elsewhere and, therefore, the solution as well. Simple.

Menegroth

Artis wrote: »

No, you are the one who needs to read. If there was a separate PVE campaign - a lot of people including myself would've never started PvPing. Forcing people into content is not ridiculous, because it works and does exactly what it's supposed to do. It makes more people try PvP and some people (like me) will stay or come back every now and then. Adding a separate PVE campaign means completely cutting out that channel.

Like I said above, stop kidding yourselves. The vast majority of PvPers intended to PvP from the start. PvErs turned PvPers are the minority. So yes, forcing people into content they don't want to do in hopes that any percentage of them decide to stay is indeed ridiculous. There are much better ways to incentivize people to join. Have you read the suggestion I made in my last post or have you simply skipped it again in order to scream the same argument because you can't come up with anything better? And like I said before, that is just one idea. I'm sure even you people would be able to brainstorm and find even better solution to stop this PvPer bleed.

Artis wrote: »

Do you read what you reply to?

]Unfortunately. Unlike you people, intelectual honesty is important to me.

Artis wrote: »

There is no better way to incenitivize people. I and many others went there because we had to, because we wanted achievements.

Holy hell... Try to say this aloud. Preferably in the presence of another person.
Again, there are much better ways. I know it's hard, but you people just have to join heads, think about it really hard and come up with solution for yourselves. After that, petition ZOS for implementaion just like we're doing here.

kargen27

Menegroth wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

You repeating what has already been said does nothing. It didn't address my statement the first time and still doesn't. Your idea is bad for the entire game and that means it is bad for PvP. Nothing you have posted disputes that let alone proves it not true.

And you also failed to address the different challenge Cyrodiil represents to the PvE players. A challenge many found interesting. You have posted no good reason for the change other than you don't want to do it as is.

It is good for the game for crossover activity. It is what helps keep the game alive.

*sigh*
Alright... Let's go over this one more time.

The fact that you fail to recognize or accept that a SEPARATE PvE campaing won't change anything for PvPers does not make it invalid. It just means you failed to understand or accept it since you seem to have already decided that this is bad no matter what. Let's try to be more open minded and have a bit more of intelectual honesty, shall we?

Now, let's go over the topics. Again.

Please, let this into your heads: The Cyrodil PvP campaings WILL NOT cease to exist.

Once more: The Cyrodil PvP campaings WILL NOT cease to exist.

Is that clear enough now? You people and people INTERESTED in PvP will still be able to frequent and use those campaings for doing their Cyrodil delves, lorebooks and skyshards. And better yet: with all the slots filled only with PvPers that WANT to be there.

Are you people capable of understanding that those challenges will still be there for those who WANT to be there? Please, pay close attention to the keyword want. Your personal preference and how you think others should experience content, no matter how absolutely right you think you are, is completely irrelevant. Some people DO NOT WANT to have anything to do with PvP. Everyone have their reasons and they are also irrelevant to the discussion. Which means, for those who struggle to understand things, that the fact that they simply don't want to is reason enough.

What we do have is a percentage of the playerbase that will not touch Cyrodil because of this. Some felt pressured to go in there and came back only with countless ganks that discouraged them from PvP completely. Can you imagine how many more PvErs would be more willing and accepting of PvP if they weren't forced into a gankers cesspool like we are now?

If anything, forcing people to do things they don't want is much more detrimental to the game than anything else. Just like having the separate factions that couldn't interact with one another, while the idea had it's charm, it proved to be completely impractical in the real world.

And as we've been saying all this time, please ram this into your skulls untill it's well understood, The Cyrodil PvP campaings WILL NOT cease to exist. It'll still be there for guilds to run events or try to run newbies through it so they can experience and get hooked on it without being forced to it. So, do you understand now that there's absolutely NO REASON WHATSOEVER to think people will lose interest in PvP because of this? You'll only lose the people that already don't want to be there anyway.

You are still ignoring my one and only point. MMOs survive through players sticking around. There is limited PvE content and that is stretched out by RNG among other things. PvP keeps a lot of players in game that would have left. A mechanic that introduces players to PvP is a good thing. Removing it is bad for the game. If it is bad for the game it is by default bad for the players in the game and that includes PvP'rs. Nothing you posted refutes this. All you can do is repeat that the campaigns will not change. Less people in them...that is a change and not a good one. Some of those PvE players who visit Cyradiil decide to stick around. That is good. With your idea they do a few delves and are gone until maybe some new content entices them back to the game. Not good.

Again because you fail to realize this. THE CAMPAIGNS REMAINING THE SAME DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is we end up with less people playing the game because they were not introduced to an integral part of it. PvE delves in Cyrodiil are often that introduction and it isn't always a negative one.

Artis

Menegroth wrote: »

Like I said above, stop kidding yourselves. The vast majority of PvPers intended to PvP from the start. PvErs turned PvPers are the minority. So yes, forcing people into content they don't want to do in hopes that any percentage of them decide to stay is indeed ridiculous. There are much better ways to incentivize people to join. Have you read the suggestion I made in my last post or have you simply skipped it again in order to scream the same argument because you can't come up with anything better? And like I said before, that is just one idea. I'm sure even you people would be able to brainstorm and find even better solution to stop this PvPer bleed.

No one ever said the flow of PvE players was responsible for the majority of population. But can you prove that this minority is negligible? I doubt you can. Most of people who I know do PvP do both PvP and PvE and started with PvE. Yes, I have read your suggestions and already replied: There's NO better way to incentivize people to join than to make them go there and see what happens because they need to go there.

Read it again: If I didn't have to go to a PvP campaign, I wouldn't go there. I only went there because of it. Another example: Midyear Mayhem event. Did you see how many more people were in Cyro? Do you know why? Because they HAD to go there to complete achievements. And the achievements were made in a way to simply introduce people to PvP. Same thing with cyrodiil skyshards and dailies. If you don't want to get them - don't. If you do, like I did, you go to Cyrodiil and get them. Doesn't take much time, too. Much less annoying and time consuming than fishing or grinding trophies.

What are better ways? Let's say I'm a completionist like I was in 2014. Only did quests and completed everything PvE zones had. Incentivize me to go to a Cyrodiil PvP campaign (assuming there is a pve campaign.)

3-2-1 go.

Menegroth wrote: »

Holy hell... Try to say this aloud. Preferably in the presence of another person.
Again, there are much better ways. I know it's hard, but you people just have to join heads, think about it really hard and come up with solution for yourselves. After that, petition ZOS for implementaion just like we're doing here.

As I said above - show me better ways. So far what you suggested is not only not a better way, it's not a way at all. If I'm not interested in PvP, no mentor system will make me go there. What rewards were you talking about, though? AP? PvP gear? Not interested. What else you got?

Menegroth

kargen27 wrote: »

You are still ignoring my one and only point. MMOs survive through players sticking around. There is limited PvE content and that is stretched out by RNG among other things. PvP keeps a lot of players in game that would have left. A mechanic that introduces players to PvP is a good thing. Removing it is bad for the game. If it is bad for the game it is by default bad for the players in the game and that includes PvP'rs. Nothing you posted refutes this. All you can do is repeat that the campaigns will not change. Less people in them...that is a change and not a good one. Some of those PvE players who visit Cyradiil decide to stick around. That is good. With your idea they do a few delves and are gone until maybe some new content entices them back to the game. Not good.

Again because you fail to realize this. THE CAMPAIGNS REMAINING THE SAME DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is we end up with less people playing the game because they were not introduced to an integral part of it. PvE delves in Cyrodiil are often that introduction and it isn't always a negative one.

I've adressed your "point" in every response to you. For some reason you fail to acknowledge whats is being said and continue to reapeat the same thing over and over.

The fact the your PvP caimpaings will reamain there is relevant and inportant exactly because it defeats your so called argument. People will still play the game and the only real change is that there'll be no PvErs to gank in PvP. Like I've been saying and you people fail so hard to udnerstand, people will still do PvP since the vast majority of PvPers already had an interest in it. As for convincing PvErs to jojn PvP, and the keyword here is convincing, not forcing, there are much better ways to do so. If you people would bother actually readin what I've said, I even gave you an idea in one of my post above on how to do that. I doubt you people will read it since you haven't been doing that since the start of this convo though.

Menegroth

Artis wrote: »

No one ever said the flow of PvE players was responsible for the majority of population. But can you prove that this minority is negligible? I doubt you can. Most of people who I know do PvP do both PvP and PvE and started with PvE. Yes, I have read your suggestions and already replied: There's NO better way to incentivize people to join than to make them go there and see what happens because they need to go there.

[snip] Only ZOS has the actual numbers and they'll never share them. Without those official numbers you also can't say that the PvE population that never sets foot in Cyrodil after a single experience is negligible either. And yet, even in a forum that doesn't represent even 5% of the playerbase and that has a majority of PvPers, we have this kind of threads. At the very least you have to ackonowledge that a lot of people are concern by this and would like to improve their experience in game.
That's your reason for dismissing my idea? Wow... You do realize that for a PvP mentor system to work people would have to go do PvP, right? That's the whole point of it. You are capable of understanding that, right...?

Artis wrote: »

Read it again: If I didn't have to go to a PvP campaign, I wouldn't go there. I only went there because of it. Another example: Midyear Mayhem event. Did you see how many more people were in Cyro? Do you know why? Because they HAD to go there to complete achievements. And the achievements were made in a way to simply introduce people to PvP. Same thing with cyrodiil skyshards and dailies. If you don't want to get them - don't. If you do, like I did, you go to Cyrodiil and get them. Doesn't take much time, too. Much less annoying and time consuming than fishing or grinding trophies.

It seems I'll have to say this very slowly. You... Are... Not... Representative... Of... The... Playerbase. While it's great that you were convinced to go there and got hooked, and the same experience is shared among other players, that doesn't make you a majority. Just like the people that never went to Cyrodil or went there once and never returned, you are the minority.

[snip] Thank you! Yes, the event is a great example of what I'm trying to get through [snip]. That's an amazing way to convince, not force, people to join PvP. They can get PvP achievements by doing PvP. Can you see the difference? They were not forced into a PvP zone in order to complete PvE achievements. See how that worked wonders? And just seeing by another thread that I won't bother to look for, there were a lot of PvErs covnerted to PvPers. And, again, no one was forced into anything. They were offered PvP rewards for doing PvP and that's it.

Artis wrote: »

What are better ways? Let's say I'm a completionist like I was in 2014. Only did quests and completed everything PvE zones had. Incentivize me to go to a Cyrodiil PvP campaign (assuming there is a pve campaign.)

3-2-1 go.

As I said above - show me better ways. So far what you suggested is not only not a better way, it's not a way at all. If I'm not interested in PvP, no mentor system will make me go there. What rewards were you talking about, though? AP? PvP gear? Not interested. What else you got?

[snip] I guarantee even you are capable of thinking lor yourself and have your own ideas. I believe in you. And just to makes things clear, I'm not trying to fix your PvP. All I'm saying is that it is possible for you people to think and come up with your own solutions that you can later petition ZOS for, like I've been saying all along:

Menegroth wrote: »

And like I said before, that is just one idea. I'm sure even you people would be able to brainstorm and find even better solutions to stop this PvPer bleed.

[snip]

[Edited for bashing]

Artis

Menegroth wrote: »

[snip] Only ZOS has the actual numbers and they'll never share them. Without those official numbers you also can't say that the PvE population that never sets foot in Cyrodil after a single experience is negligible either. And yet, even in a forum that doesn't represent even 5% of the playerbase and that has a majority of PvPers, we have this kind of threads. At the very least you have to ackonowledge that a lot of people are concern by this and would like to improve their experience in game.
That's your reason for dismissing my idea? Wow... You do realize that for a PvP mentor system to work people would have to go do PvP, right? That's the whole point of it. You are capable of understanding that, right...?

Actually, I don't need to. Those people can even be the majority. But as long as the share of people who WILL return to Cyrodiil is not negligibly small (still can be a minority), then there's no reason to remove PvE objectives from Cyrodiil. If you 100% don't want to go there - then don't. It's not like you are supposed to have every single skyshard and skill point in the game. And no idea how forum is relevant. I'm talking about people I know in game.

Menegroth wrote: »

It seems I'll have to say this very slowly. You... Are... Not... Representative... Of... The... Playerbase. While it's great that you were convinced to go there and got hooked, and the same experience is shared among other players, that doesn't make you a majority. Just like the people that never went to Cyrodil or went there once and never returned, you are the minority.

Oh but yes I am. And I'm not the only one. WE DON'T HAVE TO BE THE MAJORITY!!! Hello? Why do you keep referring to that? All we have to be is not negligible minority. And we are. Thus, we are an important part of Cyrodiil population.

Menegroth wrote: »

[snip] Yes, the event is a great example of what I'm trying to get through [snip]. That's an amazing way to convince, not force, people to join PvP. They can get PvP achievements by doing PvP. Can you see the difference? They were not forced into a PvP zone in order to complete PvE achievements. See how that worked wonders? And just seeing by another thread that I won't bother to look for, there were a lot of PvErs covnerted to PvPers. And, again, no one was forced into anything. They were offered PvP rewards for doing PvP and that's it.

[snip] I'm making way more sense than you. You need to re-read the arguments you are arguing about. And learn some manners. Unless you show the scan of your PhD, you need to be quiet and not call people pathetic etc.

As a PVE player I DON'T CARE about PvP rewards and even more so about PvP achievements. They exist to reward PvPers who already PvP. I ONLY WENT to cyrodiil because it had rewards I could use for character progression and PvE, i.e. skyshards and other achievements that are not under Cyrodiil category.

Menegroth wrote: »

[snip] I guarantee even you are capable of thinking lor yourself and have your own ideas. I believe in you. And just to makes things clear, I'm not trying to fix your PvP. All I'm saying is that it is possible for you people to think and come up with your own solutions that you can later petition ZOS for, like I've been saying all along:

[snip] I suggested you to incentivize me, an abstract player who never PvPed yet to go and try PvP. Go ahead, do that. Show me better ways? So far you're just making noise and flooding the thread with nonsense. And the best way of making people try PvP mentioned in this thread so far is exactly what we have in game right now - achievements, skyshards that are not PvP related but are in the PvP zone. Something that gives players a goal that they need to reach, while being in the environment with PvP.

I'll repeat again:

What are better ways? Let's say I'm a completionist like I was in 2014. Only did quests and completed everything PvE zones had. Incentivize me to go to a Cyrodiil PvP campaign (assuming there is a pve campaign.)

3-2-1 go.

As I said above - show me better ways. So far what you suggested is not only not a better way, it's not a way at all. If I'm not interested in PvP, no mentor system will make me go there. What rewards were you talking about, though? AP? PvP gear? Not interested. What else you got?

Come on. Show me. How will you make players who never PvPed and have no interest in PvP try PvP? Make me go to Cyrodiil! Will you?

[Edited for bashing]

Menegroth

Artis wrote: »

Actually, I don't need to. Those people can even be the majority. But as long as the share of people who WILL return to Cyrodiil is not negligibly small (still can be a minority), then there's no reason to remove PvE objectives from Cyrodiil. If you 100% don't want to go there - then don't. It's not like you are supposed to have every single skyshard and skill point in the game. And no idea how forum is relevant. I'm talking about people I know in game.

Oh but yes I am. And I'm not the only one. WE DON'T HAVE TO BE THE MAJORITY!!! Hello? Why do you keep referring to that? All we have to be is not negligible minority. And we are. Thus, we are an important part of Cyrodiil population.

[snip] The vast majority of the people in the forum are from the PvP crowd. Even so, we get threads asking for this every so often anyway by different players. That means that, despite the huge difference between PvE and PvP population in the forums, the people that feel we should have a PvE Cyrodil campaing is significant enough for this to happen. Were you able to understand now? I really don'y know how to make this simpler.

Unless you know more then 8 thousand people playing the game, you and your friends are still a minority and don't count as relevant. If that and your delusion of grandeur aside, I never said there weren't people like you. And whether your number are significant or not, only ZOS knows. But the thing is: it's irrelevant. Like I've been trying to make you people understand, there are better ways to get people to PvP other then forcing them there.

Artis wrote: »

[snip] I'm making way more sense than you. You need to re-read the arguments you are arguing about. And learn some manners. Unless you show the scan of your PhD, you need to be quiet and not call people pathetic etc.

As a PVE player I DON'T CARE about PvP rewards and even more so about PvP achievements. They exist to reward PvPers who already PvP. I ONLY WENT to cyrodiil because it had rewards I could use for character progression and PvE, i.e. skyshards and other achievements that are not under Cyrodiil category.

[snip] If you had even a shred of intelectual honesty, which you people already demonstrated beyond doubt you lack entirely, you would know you people begun with this tone. And if you can dish it, you can take it.

And skyshards, lorebooks and achievements are the only thing that benefit your character in Cyrodil? Really? What about the assault skill line, which has many useful tool for both magicka and stamina characters? It's PvP only and should remain that way. That's why it's the Assault skill line. And as was already established, the event was more than enough to incentivize PvErs into trying Cyrodil and a lot of them turned PvPers. And there were only PvP achievements for doing PvP. And it worked. Despite all your crying about how nothing else besides forcing people there, it worked. Of course, I never expected you to acknowledge something that completely undermines your so called "argument".

Artis wrote: »

[snip] I suggested you to incentivize me, an abstract player who never PvPed yet to go and try PvP. Go ahead, do that. Show me better ways? So far you're just making noise and flooding the thread with nonsense. And the best way of making people try PvP mentioned in this thread so far is exactly what we have in game right now - achievements, skyshards that are not PvP related but are in the PvP zone. Something that gives players a goal that they need to reach, while being in the environment with PvP.

I'll repeat again:

What are better ways? Let's say I'm a completionist like I was in 2014. Only did quests and completed everything PvE zones had. Incentivize me to go to a Cyrodiil PvP campaign (assuming there is a pve campaign.)

3-2-1 go.

As I said above - show me better ways. So far what you suggested is not only not a better way, it's not a way at all. If I'm not interested in PvP, no mentor system will make me go there. What rewards were you talking about, though? AP? PvP gear? Not interested. What else you got?

Come on. Show me. How will you make players who never PvPed and have no interest in PvP try PvP? Make me go to Cyrodiil! Will you?

[snip] Since it's been made clear you people lack intelectual honesty, it doesn't matter if I come up with the golden idea, it'll never be enough. You people, and especially you, are only concerned with "winning" and argument. And for that you people choose to ignore anything that undermines your vitriol in order to continue to repeat the same beat up argument since it's the only one you have.

Understand this: the people who have to think about a solution for this are you people and ZOS. ZOS already showed a much better way to get people into PvP. And it had only PvP achievements and nothing more. So even if you personally wouldn't be interested, a lot of people did and it worked wonders for them. And as you people keep failing to udnerstand, that's just one idea. Despite everything, I still think you people are capable of thinking on your own and coming up with good ideas. You should try it.

So tell me: aside from forcing others into Cyrodil, what else would have made you go there? Would an event like this work for you? If not, what would?

[Edited for bashing]

Artis

Menegroth wrote: »

[snip]

The vast majority of the people in the forum are from the PvP crowd. Even so, we get threads asking for this every so often anyway by different players. That means that, despite the huge difference between PvE and PvP population in the forums, the people that feel we should have a PvE Cyrodil campaing is significant enough for this to happen. Were you able to understand now? I really don'y know how to make this simpler.

Prove it. PvP players is not a majority. There were tons of polls on this very forum demonstrating that most players on forums do PvE.

Moreover, forum only doesn't matter. ZOS gets its feedback from /feedback in game. But most importantly? They look at statistics and numbers. Apparently, their numbers show that a non negligible share of players who go to Cyrodiil for skyshards at first come back.

Menegroth wrote: »

Unless you know more then 8 thousand people playing the game, you and your friends are still a minority and don't count as relevant. If that and your delusion of grandeur aside, I never said there weren't people like you. And whether your number are significant or not, only ZOS knows. But the thing is: it's irrelevant. Like I've been trying to make you people understand, there are better ways to get people to PvP other then forcing them there.

That's not at all how it works. [snip]

And yes, only ZOS knows. And the fact that they still didnt' a PVE campaign AND the fact that the last event was clearly made in a way to introduce players to Cyrodiil (no achievements were hard, to get them you just needed to try PvP) clearly shows that the numbers were significant and the current state is not going anywhere.

Artis wrote: »

[snip] I'm making way more sense than you. You need to re-read the arguments you are arguing about. And learn some manners. Unless you show the scan of your PhD, you need to be quiet and not call people pathetic etc.

As a PVE player I DON'T CARE about PvP rewards and even more so about PvP achievements. They exist to reward PvPers who already PvP. I ONLY WENT to cyrodiil because it had rewards I could use for character progression and PvE, i.e. skyshards and other achievements that are not under Cyrodiil category.

Menegroth wrote: »

[snip] If you had even a shred of intelectual honesty, which you people already demonstrated beyond doubt you lack entirely, you would know you people begun with this tone. And if you can dish it, you can take it.

Which is still an insult because clearly I wasn't and it's just your opinion/attempt to insult an opponent. Going ad hominem is NOT how you debate.

Menegroth wrote: »

And skyshards, lorebooks and achievements are the only thing that benefit your character in Cyrodil? Really? What about the assault skill line, which has many useful tool for both magicka and stamina characters? It's PvP only and should remain that way. That's why it's the Assault skill line. And as was already established, the event was more than enough to incentivize PvErs into trying Cyrodil and a lot of them turned PvPers. And there were only PvP achievements for doing PvP. And it worked. Despite all your crying about how nothing else besides forcing people there, it worked. Of course, I never expected you to acknowledge something that completely undermines your so called "argument".

Yes for my magicka character I don't need assault skill lines. Most importantly - they aren't associated with any achievements that are not under the Cyrodiil tab. And having skills locked behind PvP only makes my point stronger. They were added to those lines namely because they saw that PvE players will be more likely to go to Cyrodiil that way. They could add Vigor to one of the guild lines, for example.

Nope. You're wrong. Those were not PvP achievements. Those were achievements under "Holiday Events" tab. That's the whole point. And that is HUGE difference. That's the tab that your so-called completionists started and they can't stand not finishing it, whereas they don't care about "Player vs Player" tab. Once again, simple search on forums will show you how much butthurt some of PvEers had about that. Then again, those are not PvEers, those are grinders. People who are in end-game PvE scene never ever complained about having to do PvP. Some of them didn't like it 100%, but they all understand what's better for the health of the game.

Menegroth wrote: »

[snip] Since it's been made clear you people lack intelectual honesty, it doesn't matter if I come up with the golden idea, it'll never be enough. You people, and especially you, are only concerned with "winning" and argument. And for that you people choose to ignore anything that undermines your vitriol in order to continue to repeat the same beat up argument since it's the only one you have.

Once more, stop insulting people or show a document that allows you to think you're smarter. It hasn't been made clear I lack intellectual honesty. In fact, that's a huge accusation and I would lose my degrees if that was true, and you should actually be in court with that - if you're right, it will have consequences for me, if you're wrong - it will have consequences for you. And I mean real consequences. You don't tell people things like that. Not to mention that you aren't the one to make statements like that, since you never accepted your burden of proof even though you're making affirmative claims that challenge the current paradigm. Also, can't spell "intellectual" correctly.

Menegroth wrote: »

Understand this: the people who have to think about a solution for this are you people and ZOS. ZOS already showed a much better way to get people into PvP. And it had only PvP achievements and nothing more. So even if you personally wouldn't be interested, a lot of people did and it worked wonders for them. And as you people keep failing to udnerstand, that's just one idea. Despite everything, I still think you people are capable of thinking on your own and coming up with good ideas. You should try it.

So tell me: aside from forcing others into Cyrodil, what else would have made you go there? Would an event like this work for you? If not, what would?

ZOS clearly showed that players will only go if they need to. They added achievements under "Holiday Events" tab - and that made pveers and completionists go to pvp. Adding new achievements to PvP tab never had that effect, examples: adding achievements to kill wardens, IC achievements, battleground achievements. You are being in denial at this point.

Once again - make me go to Cyrodiil if I'm a PvE player and don't care about a "Player vs player" achievement tab. ZOS did exactly that with the last event and with the fact that some skyshards, fish, and quests are in cyrodiil. I have to go to Cyrodiil to complete achievements in non PvP tabs, so I went. Adding new PvP achievements that are not affecting other achievements outside of PvP tab DID NOT HAVE THAT EFFECT. It targets a different audience.

Show a better solution not involving it or leave.

[Edited for bashing]

ZOS_Mika

We have had to remove several combative comments from this thread. Please keep this thread civil and on topic.

Menegroth

A friend told me that, by trying to match your people's tone, I myself became guilty of the exact thing I was accusing you people of. Unfortunately, she's right. As much as I hate to admit it, my anger got the better of me and that did hurt my arguments.

That being said, I'll take a step back. Continuing would be fruitless and would only devolve further. I still maintain my position and I hope you people at least give an honest read to my posts later.

And just an advice: threatening people can end very badly for you. Don't do that.

Artis

We did. Now you give an honest read to what you were told and realize that there is no better way to attract a PvE player than achievements outside the PVP tab. Even if there is, there's no need to choose 1 if all can be implemented, the current method works, as long as it attracts more than 0 people - it should stay there. PvEers aren't losing anything, they don't need all skyshards and lore-books, but PvP population gains some of those PvE players who want something enough to go to Cyrodiil.

Also, not sure who threatened you, you were the one accusing others of intellectual dishonesty - which in certain circles is an accusation leading to the loss of everything, so now that is really threatening.

Slick_007

Amadis001 wrote: »

Don't like it. PvE in Cyrodiil is a lot of fun as it is. You can minimize your PvP risk but not eliminate it entirely, which makes questing have a little bit of a different character than questing in the alliance zones. There's always a a need to be a little sneaky and always a chance you'll bump into an enemy player and have to fight or run for it.

you know that moment when you are riding along singing a song... and you see an enemy player doing the same thing. both of you dismount, thinking crap. then both stealth and now you're saying CRAP! you stealth around for a while and....nothing. unstealth, get on your horse, sigh in relief and ride off.

Stampers

Oh no. Don't ever do this.

I love killing PVE'ers

Oh boy, I love the ragewhispers

kargen27

Menegroth wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

You are still ignoring my one and only point. MMOs survive through players sticking around. There is limited PvE content and that is stretched out by RNG among other things. PvP keeps a lot of players in game that would have left. A mechanic that introduces players to PvP is a good thing. Removing it is bad for the game. If it is bad for the game it is by default bad for the players in the game and that includes PvP'rs. Nothing you posted refutes this. All you can do is repeat that the campaigns will not change. Less people in them...that is a change and not a good one. Some of those PvE players who visit Cyradiil decide to stick around. That is good. With your idea they do a few delves and are gone until maybe some new content entices them back to the game. Not good.

Again because you fail to realize this. THE CAMPAIGNS REMAINING THE SAME DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is we end up with less people playing the game because they were not introduced to an integral part of it. PvE delves in Cyrodiil are often that introduction and it isn't always a negative one.

I've adressed your "point" in every response to you. For some reason you fail to acknowledge whats is being said and continue to reapeat the same thing over and over.

The fact the your PvP caimpaings will reamain there is relevant and inportant exactly because it defeats your so called argument. People will still play the game and the only real change is that there'll be no PvErs to gank in PvP. Like I've been saying and you people fail so hard to udnerstand, people will still do PvP since the vast majority of PvPers already had an interest in it. As for convincing PvErs to jojn PvP, and the keyword here is convincing, not forcing, there are much better ways to do so. If you people would bother actually readin what I've said, I even gave you an idea in one of my post above on how to do that. I doubt you people will read it since you haven't been doing that since the start of this convo though.

No you really didn't address anything I said at all. We all know your idea would leave the PvP campaigns in place. We have no argument with that. What we are saying is your idea would mean less people in the game and that is not good for the game as a whole. You keep repeating you can still play just like you are now that will not change. That does nothing to address my point. Doesn't even come close. My point is with your change there would be less people in the entire game. Not just PvP but less people game wide. That does hurt the game thus hurting PvP.

MMOs depend on players sticking around for a good long time. PvP is what keeps a good number of those players around and I know a lot of people that were introduced to PvP because they wanted the skyshards, delves, achievements and/or skills to be found in Cyrodiil.

Why will ZoS not include a PvE Cyrodiil? Because they know it will lower their player base. Simple as that and that is why they won't be considering this idea. None of your talk about ganking, population lock, same servers or anything else changes that your idea is bad for the overall game.

TheRealPotoroo

apostate9 wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

Anne_Firehawk wrote: »

If you want to enjoy Cyrodiil, take the risk of having to PVP while doing PVE. It's a PVP-Zone, the Roleplayers wouldn't like it if suddenly the war was paused there.

No, that's the exact opposite of enjoyment. We're trying to do PvE stuff. We are not trying to do PvP stuff, we don't want to do PvP stuff, we just want to be left alone to do the mode we do enjoy.

Then do it in a PVE zone, Genius. There are only like 30 of them.

To repeat: the developers put PvE in Cyrodiil. I do PvE, therefore in order to get certain PvE achievements I have to go to Cyrodiil at some point. That you cannot grasp this simple fact is telling.

djogani

I am mainly PvE player but believe it or not i collected all skyshards and finished all quests in and explored all caves in Cyrodiil but i did that eons ago in late 2014 or early 2015 even i cant remmember anymore i must check my achievements and no less but with then teribly squishy stamina nightblade with low survivability and i must point it out it was quite enjoyable but im not sure how is situation in Cyrodiil now considering i recently came back after 2 years abbsence.

randomkeyhits

Up until the recent event I'd only done PvE, did the event, wandered around Cyrodiil and found I liked it.

The biggest problem was familiarity. I didn't know how to move around, I didn't have rapid manoeuvre, I didn't know the danger spots, I didn't know how to minimise my footprint and not draw attention. I did die a lot and my gear for PvP was woeful.

But.

The cost is a re-spawn and a little time lost, nothing else. Compared to other games I've played it truly is nothing if running around solo and not taking part in keep attack/defences.

Now I understand the map and what it signifies, I know where I can go or not go with relative safety, gear is improving as are my responses when faced with enemies. I'm becoming familiar with it all and nearly all the scary has gone away. My build is still weak as I don''t know quite what I want but mostly it doesn't matter and I'm slowly ticking off all the skyshards/quests/whatever there is to find.

Unless its the last delve you need, if someone is camping, go elsewhere, tick off a different objective or as someone else said switch campaigns.

As long as you are flexible in your objects and don't take it personally then Cyrodiil is absolutely no problem.

TelvanniWizard

Cyrodiil only needs one thing: lag fix.

Sinolai

I just find it annoying that quest NPC are located so close to flags you cant read the story without being attacked By flag guards... and I am not talking about the daily quests. I am talking about the ones you can do only once. Could you move them somewhere a little bit safer?