ZOS NERF: Earthtear Cavern Changes... Noooooooooo :(

MacCait

By the way... whatever options are presented for a fix... the raining inside a house really has to be fixed above anything else. It's very annoying, never used to be this way, and doesn't make any logical sense.

purple-magicb16_ESO

Sounds like bait and switch.

psychotrip

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, apologies for the delay in replying. We're talking through some possible options, and will let you know what we plan to do regarding these changes. Will keep you all in the loop and let you know what's decided as soon as possible.

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

Sounds like bait and switch.

How do you mean?

purple-magicb16_ESO

psychotrip wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, apologies for the delay in replying. We're talking through some possible options, and will let you know what we plan to do regarding these changes. Will keep you all in the loop and let you know what's decided as soon as possible.

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

Sounds like bait and switch.

How do you mean?

I don't understand the logic behind offering something, selling it on the basis that players can even preview it and then changing it for no apparent reason. If there was an exploit to be fixed that's fine but provide warning of what you are about to do and give the reasoning. They have the right to do this, yes, but is it good business practice? 8magine that all these fantastic mounts everyone bought were suddenly changed into lifeless donkeys. Not cool right? Why? Because that's not what you bought. I don't think I'm exaggerating when you consider that players are losing decorations they payed for.

Prof_Bawbag

Maybe I'm reading waaaaaaaay too much into what Gina said, but it seems these changes are indeed intentional rather than being a 'bug'. If it was indeed a bug, why would they need to talk through "options", why not discussing possible fixes?

MacCait

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Maybe I'm reading waaaaaaaay too much into what Gina said, but it seems these changes are indeed intentional rather than being a 'bug'. If it was indeed a bug, why would they need to talk through "options", why not discussing possible fixes?

I can't see how a bug can delete windows from a house, place mountains of rock inside a cavern etc. I believe it's a case of someone just decided they wanted to do that.

The only bug I can imagine is the raining inside a house with a roof.

psychotrip

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, apologies for the delay in replying. We're talking through some possible options, and will let you know what we plan to do regarding these changes. Will keep you all in the loop and let you know what's decided as soon as possible.

purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »

Sounds like bait and switch.

How do you mean?

I don't understand the logic behind offering something, selling it on the basis that players can even preview it and then changing it for no apparent reason. If there was an exploit to be fixed that's fine but provide warning of what you are about to do and give the reasoning. They have the right to do this, yes, but is it good business practice? 8magine that all these fantastic mounts everyone bought were suddenly changed into lifeless donkeys. Not cool right? Why? Because that's not what you bought. I don't think I'm exaggerating when you consider that players are losing decorations they payed for.

Oh yeah definitely. I thought you were specifically referring to Gina's recent response.

Lady_Rosabella

dotme wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, apologies for the delay in replying. We're talking through some possible options, and will let you know what we plan to do regarding these changes. Will keep you all in the loop and let you know what's decided as soon as possible.

I think what has everyone scratching their head is this: Why mess with these things at all?

Whether it's shrinking a cavern, removing windows from a house, seaweed from a beach or changing lanterns/lighting that was purchased in good faith, changing something after the buyer has spent crowns on it isn't very ethical no matter whether legal/TOS compliant or not.

It's like if someone bought a new car, and a month later they woke up one morning to find that the dealer had stopped by in the middle of the night and removed the rear window while the car was parked in the driveway. I think that's how people feel about this.

AGREED!!

It would be like buying a house and two months after moving in, the previous owner came back and started removing the addition that was added on and it being one of the big reasons you purchased the house to begin with. Whether it's $120,000 cash for the real house or $120 cash for the Earthtear Cavern, that's taking someones money for a purchase they made then changing the item months later. And, although I have not commented on any, I have seen post all over social media and gaming websites about this happening and warning people about purchasing house with crowns and what is happening.

JasonSilverSpring

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, apologies for the delay in replying. We're talking through some possible options, and will let you know what we plan to do regarding these changes. Will keep you all in the loop and let you know what's decided as soon as possible.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, are you all also looking into the changes to Hunding's Palatial Hall (missing items on beach) and Mathiisen Manor (windows removed from interior)?

Have there been any changes to any other homes?

Prof_Bawbag

JasonSilverSpring wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, apologies for the delay in replying. We're talking through some possible options, and will let you know what we plan to do regarding these changes. Will keep you all in the loop and let you know what's decided as soon as possible.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, are you all also looking into the changes to Hunding's Palatial Hall (missing items on beach) and Mathiisen Manor (windows removed from interior)?

Have there been any changes to any other homes?

Don't hold your breath.

Prof_Bawbag

And here it is:

Greetings!

Thank you for contacting The Elder Scrolls Online Team. My name is Logan, and it's my pleasure to assist you today.


I understand you're frustrated about an unexpected change to Mathiison Manor. As it stands, we only know as much about this as has been made public by the development team. You should keep an eye on the forums for updates. I realize that may not be the most appealing option to you.


Regarding your request for a refund, the answer is no.

It is not possible to refund items purchased in the Crown Store except to the extent required by local law. Some jurisdictions (including Australia) impose certain terms and conditions on the supply of services and digital content (including in respect of refunds) that cannot be excluded. See http://www.zenimax.com/legal_terms_us.

For refund requests related to crown packs purchased from The Elder Scrolls Online Store, you should contact ESO Customer Support.
For refund requests related to crown packs purchased from the Steam Store, you should contact Steam Support.

For refund requests related to crown packs purchased from the Xbox Store or PlayStation Network Store, please contact Xbox Support or PlayStation Support.

The same contempt they showed when they *** up the sub crowns on the xbox. Not another *** penny from me and it will certainly not be the last time they hear from me regarding this. Like the last time, I was fobbed off with their drivel, only the guy at the other end assumed UK consumer laws didn't warrant me receiving a refund. Well, things turned out differently because ZoS aren't above the trading laws.

Either revert the house back or shove it up your ass ZoS. along with my sub.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

JasonSilverSpring

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

I appreciate the feedback; I even wondered to myself if it might be something like that. Could you comment at all on the changes to Hunding's and Mathiisen? They seem to me to be more of a bug or accidental change. Especially for Mathiisen since the sun light from the now missing windows still shines on the floor inside and at night from outside the light still shows from the windows.

I see you posted on the thread for Mathiisen. Thank you.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4273551/#Comment_4273551

MLGProPlayer

MacCait wrote: »

By the way... whatever options are presented for a fix... the raining inside a house really has to be fixed above anything else. It's very annoying, never used to be this way, and doesn't make any logical sense.

It used to always be like this. They fix raining inside of houses every other patch, and then it somehow comes back a few patches later. It's been like this since the Homestead beta.

Skcarkden

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

Which area outside of the house was it giving access to, and how? Why is that even an issue? Why do far more serious issues get ignored while a $150 item has part of it removed for a bogus excuse as the *only* time something is ever supposedly "fixed" ?

Refunds for all the people ZOS scammed?

Honestly i very much doubt that's the true answer for the changes

Lady_Rosabella

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_RichLambert so you're gonna take livable space away from others who used those spaces because some idiot decided they wanted to see if they could access the unplayable areas? What ever happened to using invisible walls, say at the edge of the water? Hubby and I had planned on buying more furnished crown store houses, as we each have already bought three, but we will not be spending cash on another, if this is going to happen.

You should at least remove the "Invisible Wall" you used on the opposite side that contains so much livable space and that already has a solid stone wall to keep people like that from accessing unplayable areas. That's the least you can do for punishing so many for the actions of a few.


Oh and btw, thanks for letting everyone know in advance so they could remove the items they had placed in those areas instead of them being loss under giant boulders. Obviously, by your responses on June 6-7, Gina you didn't even know they were doing this, apologies to you for being kept in the dark along with everyone who purchased the cavern.

And I suppose the raining inside the cavern and the hanging lanterns not swinging anymore and being stuck in a sideways position was intentional as well?

Hubby and I have been loyal plus members since July 2014, never missed a month of paying $14.99 EACH and have bought numerous, and I mean numerous Crown Packs. We have stuck with ZOS even when nearly everyone we played with since the beginning has left this game. And this is what you do to paying customers and people who spend money on Crowns to keep the game going and so the staff can get paid? I think it's time to reflect on where your loyalties lie.

NightbladeMechanics

@ZOS_GinaBruno any word on if the invisible wall along the front right side of the cavern will be removed? The one blocking that long ledge above the water. There's a solid rock wall right there that we'd love to build against.

Skcarkden

Just tell ZOS about the exploit using invisible walls to get thousands of gold or that it's a fun feature, they'll be quick to patch it out for gold, even quicker if it's for fun.

Petty changes to content, even paid for premium content is higher priority than fixing the broken game. It's sad.

MacCait

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

I'm sorry, but I think that is just a BS excuse. There was no way to get out of the Cavern in either area, I tried. I tried as I like to plug in all areas where my guild mates might get stuck or have issues, as it ruins my design. There were zero issues in either of those areas.

In one of the areas changed there is no possible way to get out as there where nothing but SOLID walls there. Rocks where placed in an area with no water or way out, just a wall. The area I speak of is next to the waterfall. The only issue in that area was one wall was poorly textured. The simple fix for this was to just add a texture to the rock concerned. NOT place a whole mountain of rock over that area.

In the second area, there are not only invisible walls stopping you from getting out, but if somehow you managed to get past that, which is impossible, then Slaughterfish would kill you. Either way, if what you are saying is true, then all they had to do was add another invisible wall with collison data. Lord knows the Cavern has enougth of those. As a result a large area has been lost here. Thats not plugging a tiny hole, that's covering an entire area.

It has taken the best part of a month for you guys to reply to this, and now this BS excuse. I'm sorry but I have lost all faith and respect for you guys with this. I'm trying to be polite as possible here, and if I for a second believed this was a real issue I'd just accept it, but this is simply BS, nothing else. It seems clear it's just taken a month to come up with just an excuse.

The reality of this situation is anyone who buys a house for crowns and real money can have that digital property changed at any time and without reason, at the whim of ZOS, and there's nothing anyone can say or do about it. Ok lesson learned.

Time to stop giving ZOS my money.

dotme

So lemme get this straight... Instead of taking time to draw invisible barriers at the point(s) of egress and making subtle intricate changes with a scalpel to correct accidental access to "unplayable areas", a developer decided to drag-and-drop some dirty great boulders on top of people's furnishings and call it good? That's hilarious!

How long did that take? 10 seconds?

I don't mean to be critical, but I believe there should be an apology issued for the lazy fix, not for "confusion" - And folks who spent big dollars on this should be offered a crown refund. Many may not take advantage of it, but from a customer relations perspective I would think it's the right thing to do.

I'm so happy I don't own Earthtear... but I'm fearful of what they're going to do in the future to the house I did buy, and because of that possibility I'll never buy another.

Lauranae

Lady_Rosabella wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

@ZOS_GinaBruno so you're gonna take livable space away from others who used those spaces because some idiot decided they wanted to see if they could access the unplayable areas? What ever happened to using invisible walls, say at the edge of the water? Hubby and I had planned on buying more furnished crown store houses, as we each have already bought three, but we will not be spending cash on another, if this is going to happen.

You should at least remove the "Invisible Wall" you used on the opposite side that contains so much livable space and that already has a solid stone wall to keep people like that from accessing unplayable areas. That's the least you can do for punishing so many for the actions of a few.


Oh and btw, thanks for letting everyone know in advance so they could remove the items they had placed in those areas instead of them being loss under giant boulders. Obviously, by your responses on June 6-7, Gina you didn't even know they were doing this, apologies to you for being kept in the dark along with everyone who purchased the cavern.

And I suppose the raining inside the cavern and the hanging lanterns not swinging anymore and being stuck in a sideways position was intentional as well?

Hubby and I have been loyal plus members since July 2014, never missed a month of paying $14.99 EACH and have bought numerous, and I mean numerous Crown Packs. We have stuck with ZOS even when nearly everyone we played with since the beginning has left this game. And this is what you do to paying customers and people who spend money on Crowns to keep the game going and so the staff can get paid? I think it's time to reflect on where your loyalties lie.

And to add to Lady post, i can be affirmative that we (husband and myself) will not from now buy any new house from the store, as the product will be modified in a very harsh method, and with no consideration for us.
Proof is that you modified other houses (we both own the Palatial and you modified it also. This change can be considered as an embelissement, but for me it is not as its transform all my room), and we still have to hear about you concerning those other changes.
Thank you

LMar

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

What about the various removals of kelp/shells from the beach in the Hunding's Palatial home?

Tavore1138

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

OK That's super, if very angry making for those that own it - why does the Mathiesen house need it's windows bricked up and why did Hundings need it's random decorations removed?

JasonSilverSpring

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

OK That's super, if very angry making for those that own it - why does the Mathiesen house need it's windows bricked up and why did Hundings need it's random decorations removed?

Gina has confirmed the windows in Mathiisen are bugged and will be fixed. No word on Hundings yet.

Skcarkden

Tavore1138 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

OK That's super, if very angry making for those that own it - why does the Mathiesen house need it's windows bricked up and why did Hundings need it's random decorations removed?

Window lets you see outside, seeing the outside counts as being outside and you're not allowed to be outside - ZOS logic.

beach decorations let you feel like you were outside, and feeling like you're outside counts as being outside and you're not allowed to e outside, even when you are outside - more ZOS logic.

The real answer is one of the ZOS team got bored, and rather than fix real bugs or do his job to justify being paid he decided to stuff around in housing and must have accidently saved it. It took a month for an answer because no one ever wants to admit to mkaing a mistake, even if it would earn more respect being honest, they wanted to make up the perfect lie to justify the glaring issues, only they couldn't claim it's a dragon break this time, so they went with plan B, "someone got a few pixel inches outside of the playable zone so we took several metres of area away"

Even IF i were to believe their absurd claim, why does it matter in a players house IF there was a spot that let em outside? (which there isn't) it's instanced, and private, and ultimately doesn't bloody matter. What are ZOS doing wasting time learning about such fictional non-issues and waging war against when they could have better spent time on REAL issues plaguing the game since day 1?

Moloch1514

Wow. That's pretty lame all-around for an item that costs more than the whole game + most DLCs.

I guess I won't be purchasing any housing items going forward. Factor this with the new low-blow coming from the changes to the Crown Crate (Ultra-Apex mounts that can't be redeemed for Gems), and it is getting very hard to support this game.

lonewolf26

This feels like a lazy way to fix a problem. You've effectively eliminated a section of a map that was intended to be in-bounds to protect an out-of-bounds traversal. The proper fix would have been to map the area where the break is with an invisible wall such that the area that was previously livable is still accessible, and any parts that directly lead to checkerboard land would be blocked off. Instead you've encroached upon the space that was effectively sold. Digital goods, while ephemeral, are still expected to be sense accessible to at least the same extent in which they were sold. Otherwise you erode consumer trust in your product.

Amazon got in trouble for much less years ago when they used to expire e-books due to author's publisher's requests.

Thrasher91604

Well this is very disappointing customer service from ZoS.

Why would anyone spend money on a house and decorate it, when ZoS can make major changes to it's layout afterwards?

Poor poor decisions.

raj72616a

so ZOS is indeed actively spending resources to downgrade crown items that you bought, when no player found any problem with them nor raised any issue

and they refuse to revert this lame change, and refuse to do a refund

that's just amazing

Erraln

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Ok everyone, regarding the changes made to Earthtear Cavern, this was actually an intentional change in order to prevent an issue where you could access an unplayable area outside of the home. As such, we will not be reverting this change since it was done to fix an issue. These changes went live sooner than we expected, which is why there wasn't a documented patch note for it; we apologize for the confusion this caused.

So what was the core issue? Were people not supposed to access the Khajiit area outside the Earthtear walls (why is it there?), or was there something worse going on? People able to take objects they hadn't bought, or something? What was going on that reducing size/ value of purchased items was the best solution?