ESO: Morrowind Size Comparison (Now With A Summerset Update)

psychotrip

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@psychotrip I'm just parodying how ridiculously obsessed some people have become over the physical size of the map.

Also, do you have a source for the quote that Summerset is the biggest zone? I would like to see the context. Is it biggest as in scale? Or biggest as in volume of content within?

"For the first time since The Elder Scrolls: Arena, you can visit the Isle of Summerset and explore an all-new land packed full of exciting adventures and stunning locations in a zone even larger than the one found in The Elder Scrolls Online's last Chapter, Morrowind."

As for your question about what "larger" means, this is sort of the problem. It seems ZOS was being deliberately misleading, giving us a zone that might be technically larger, but without giving us access to large chunks of the space, making it significantly smaller.

Now, you'll probably respond by saying "Well they just said it was larger! They didn't say anything about explorable space". Well, this is the definition of a misleading statement. What's the point, what's even the draw of a "big" zone if you can't access the places that make it bigger? There was no reason to advertise the size unless they wanted us to believe it would affect us in some way.

It's a lie by omission.

Radinyn

psychotrip wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@psychotrip I'm just parodying how ridiculously obsessed some people have become over the physical size of the map.

Also, do you have a source for the quote that Summerset is the biggest zone? I would like to see the context. Is it biggest as in scale? Or biggest as in volume of content within?

"For the first time since The Elder Scrolls: Arena, you can visit the Isle of Summerset and explore an all-new land packed full of exciting adventures and stunning locations in a zone even larger than the one found in The Elder Scrolls Online's last Chapter, Morrowind."

As for your question about what "larger" means, this is sort of the problem. It seems ZOS was being deliberately misleading, giving us a zone that might be technically larger, but without giving us access to large chunks of the space, making it significantly smaller.

Now, you'll probably respond by saying "Well they just said it was larger! They didn't say anything about explorable space". Well, this is the definition of a misleading statement. What's the point, what's even the draw of a "big" zone if you can't access the places that make it bigger? There was no reason to advertise the size unless they wanted us to believe it would affect us in some way.

It's a lie by omission.

It has more explorable space, previous posts confirmed it. It has more and bigger quests. It has bigger public dungeons and delves. It is larger than Morrowind in every aspect except it has 2 skilllines and not 3. You are fake news.

Elsonso

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't doubt the math, but can you tell me how you created the to-scale map? Because it doesn't quite compare to the one I tried to make, and it might explain why there's so much disbelief here.
Indeed, I'm wondering where a lot of people who post modified maps here get their raw maps from, so for disclosure mine are from esomap.uesp.net - the maps are only available in cut-up form, so I created the composites out of 16+ images.

This is a concern I share, and that is why I immediately discard any information coming from out-of-game sources, like UESP. The maps on UESP may not be scaled properly to start with, introducing error right from the start.

The only way to make sure that the map is scaled properly is to use the in-game map and actually do the work to validate the scale of the map. Building on numbers generated by someone else is also a source of error.

Measuring time and distance traveled is the only method I even begin to trust in order to do any of this. Anyone basing size comparisons on anything other than distance traveled over time is not even worth reading. Note that this does not include the "follow the yellow brick road" methodology. (Edit: measuring time traveled along the "red line")

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@psychotrip I'm just parodying how ridiculously obsessed some people have become over the physical size of the map.

Also, do you have a source for the quote that Summerset is the biggest zone? I would like to see the context. Is it biggest as in scale? Or biggest as in volume of content within?

I tend to agree.

I already know that Summerset is larger than Wrothgar, which makes it larger than Auridon. It is really close in size to Vvardenfell, but I could not tell you which was larger. Vvardenfell feels larger, due to terrain, but Summerset may actually be larger, just easier to get around in.

It is interesting to watch people adjust maps, but this is not going to change anything.

SydneyGrey

Their next chapter will be advertised as "The biggest zone yet!!!" ... and 90% of it will be mountains.

TelvanniWizard

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Their next chapter will be advertised as "The biggest zone yet!!!" ... and 90% of it will be mountains.

Sadly true...

Faulgor

lordrichter wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't doubt the math, but can you tell me how you created the to-scale map? Because it doesn't quite compare to the one I tried to make, and it might explain why there's so much disbelief here.
Indeed, I'm wondering where a lot of people who post modified maps here get their raw maps from, so for disclosure mine are from esomap.uesp.net - the maps are only available in cut-up form, so I created the composites out of 16+ images.

This is a concern I share, and that is why I immediately discard any information coming from out-of-game sources, like UESP. The maps on UESP may not be scaled properly to start with, introducing error right from the start.

The only way to make sure that the map is scaled properly is to use the in-game map and actually do the work to validate the scale of the map. Building on numbers generated by someone else is also a source of error.

I'm inclined to distrust in-game screenshots of the map more than uesp, as you can fiddle with the zoom factor too easily. The best way to get the maps would be to extract them directly from the game files, which I don't know how to do but I know the folks at uesp can. Regardless, in the case of Summerset and Auridon, the uesp maps and in-game maps when zoomed out completely are identical. I'm not as confident about the comparison between Summerset and Vvardenfell, though.

psychotrip

Radinyn wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@psychotrip I'm just parodying how ridiculously obsessed some people have become over the physical size of the map.

Also, do you have a source for the quote that Summerset is the biggest zone? I would like to see the context. Is it biggest as in scale? Or biggest as in volume of content within?

"For the first time since The Elder Scrolls: Arena, you can visit the Isle of Summerset and explore an all-new land packed full of exciting adventures and stunning locations in a zone even larger than the one found in The Elder Scrolls Online's last Chapter, Morrowind."

As for your question about what "larger" means, this is sort of the problem. It seems ZOS was being deliberately misleading, giving us a zone that might be technically larger, but without giving us access to large chunks of the space, making it significantly smaller.

Now, you'll probably respond by saying "Well they just said it was larger! They didn't say anything about explorable space". Well, this is the definition of a misleading statement. What's the point, what's even the draw of a "big" zone if you can't access the places that make it bigger? There was no reason to advertise the size unless they wanted us to believe it would affect us in some way.

It's a lie by omission.

It has more explorable space, previous posts confirmed it. It has more and bigger quests. It has bigger public dungeons and delves. It is larger than Morrowind in every aspect except it has 2 skilllines and not 3. You are fake news.

Way to dismantle your own credibility with a tired meme.

Every post that's "confirmed" this has been immediately challenged. I'm not saying they're right or wrong, because I'm willing to admit my lack of expertise in this area. But throughout this thread a large portion of people have been using various methods to express and explain the idea that Summerset is not the biggest zone ever released by ZOS. Even the posts you seem to be referencing only "prove" that it's bigger than Auridon: a relatively small vanilla starter zone. Nothing has been confirmed.

Faulgor

Based on the revised Vvardenfell comparison, I filled in all explorable areas on both islands as genorously as possible. That means inlcuding quests, delves, public dungeons and trials, which is considerable in the case of Summerset (Wasten Coraldale, Archon's Grove, King's Haven Pass, Sunhold, Karnwasten, and Cloudrest). Also note that there are some areas in the Molag Amur region which are not traversable.

Make of this what you will. I find the area "comparable".

Zordrage

Faulgor wrote: »

Based on the revised Vvardenfell comparison, I filled in all explorable areas on both islands as genorously as possible. That means inlcuding quests, delves, public dungeons and trials, which is considerable in the case of Summerset (Wasten Coraldale, Archon's Grove, King's Haven Pass, Sunhold, Karnwasten, and Cloudrest). Also note that there are some areas in the Molag Amur region which are not traversable.

Make of this what you will. I find the area "comparable".

*** the mountains.....

XomRhoK

Summerset 176837 pixels

Vvardenfell 229226 pixels

According to this pictures, explorable part of Vvardenfell almost 30% bigger then explorable part of Summerset or in other words explorable part of Summerset almost 23% smaller then explorable part of Vvardenfell.

ClockworkCityBugs

@XomRhoK this picture is wrong because its without scalin

XomRhoK

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

@XomRhoK this picture is wrong because its without scalin

Faulgor wrote: »

Based on the revised Vvardenfell comparison

I think @Faulgor scaled it with same method how he scaled Summerset and Auridon maps.

grizzledcroc

I feel like the moutain to the south should just be open fields and have maybe1 quest I dont know why it needs to be there like it is rn. Its so out of place.

Zordrage

grizzledcroc wrote: »

I feel like the moutain to the south should just be open fields and have maybe1 quest I dont know why it needs to be there like it is rn. Its so out of place.

Less work for the devs...
Less content for the players...
more money saved for the devs...
more time and more money for the devs that can be used to make more Crown Store stuff...

I don't think these devs care about Quality of content anymore to be honest...
.

Charliff1966

Then dont buy it if its not worth your money.

XomRhoK

grizzledcroc wrote: »

I feel like the moutain to the south should just be open fields and have maybe1 quest I dont know why it needs to be there like it is rn. Its so out of place.

One of the southen mountains have Colossal Aldmeri Grotto house under it, i think it's south-east mountain, can't find the video where some one open map in this house.

Zordrage

Charliff1966 wrote: »

Then dont buy it if its not worth your money.

they locked jewel crafting behind it...... a pretty major new mechanic in my opinion...

so its not that easy to not just buy it lol the chapter itself does not worth more then a small DLC in my opinion as a whole... but your forced to buy it with chapter Price if you don't want to be locked out of Entire gameplay mechanics....

leeux

For me at least, is not about the size or the quality of content, is about believability (is that even a word?), and by that I mean the fact that Summerset Isles was supposed to be one thing in the lore, and many of us (I believe, at least) expected it to be the seat of a full TES game someday.

But now ESO is setting it the base for future lore and if the isle is tiny (and I mean, it IS tiny, comparing it with any TES single player games) that means that we will never get a proper version of it, nor that the old lore is valid... and boom, years of expectation and lore are thrown away, just for the sake of greedyness/quick buck return.

MLGProPlayer

leeux wrote: »

For me at least, is not about the size or the quality of content, is about believability (is that even a word?), and by that I mean the fact that Summerset Isles was supposed to be one thing in the lore, and many of us (I believe, at least) expected it to be the seat of a full TES game someday.

But now ESO is setting it the base for future lore and if the isle is tiny (and I mean, it IS tiny, comparing it with any TES single player games) that means that we will never get a proper version of it, nor that the old lore is valid... and boom, years of expectation and lore are thrown away, just for the sake of greedyness/quick buck return.

It's not tiny. It's still the second biggest zone in the game according to the pixel counting post above.

You have to understand this game was built using the Hero Engine. This engine is a piece of crap that only one other game in the entire world uses (SWTOR). The devs are extremely limited in what they can do with it. You're never going to get zones as big and as detailed as those found in single player games in an MMO, especially not in old MMOs running on crappy engines.

Elsonso

Faulgor wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't doubt the math, but can you tell me how you created the to-scale map? Because it doesn't quite compare to the one I tried to make, and it might explain why there's so much disbelief here.
Indeed, I'm wondering where a lot of people who post modified maps here get their raw maps from, so for disclosure mine are from esomap.uesp.net - the maps are only available in cut-up form, so I created the composites out of 16+ images.

This is a concern I share, and that is why I immediately discard any information coming from out-of-game sources, like UESP. The maps on UESP may not be scaled properly to start with, introducing error right from the start.

The only way to make sure that the map is scaled properly is to use the in-game map and actually do the work to validate the scale of the map. Building on numbers generated by someone else is also a source of error.

I'm inclined to distrust in-game screenshots of the map more than uesp, as you can fiddle with the zoom factor too easily. The best way to get the maps would be to extract them directly from the game files, which I don't know how to do but I know the folks at uesp can. Regardless, in the case of Summerset and Auridon, the uesp maps and in-game maps when zoomed out completely are identical. I'm not as confident about the comparison between Summerset and Vvardenfell, though.

The UESP maps are nice, but nothing is more accurate and easy to calibrate than the in-game map.

psychotrip

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

leeux wrote: »

For me at least, is not about the size or the quality of content, is about believability (is that even a word?), and by that I mean the fact that Summerset Isles was supposed to be one thing in the lore, and many of us (I believe, at least) expected it to be the seat of a full TES game someday.

But now ESO is setting it the base for future lore and if the isle is tiny (and I mean, it IS tiny, comparing it with any TES single player games) that means that we will never get a proper version of it, nor that the old lore is valid... and boom, years of expectation and lore are thrown away, just for the sake of greedyness/quick buck return.

It's not tiny. It's still the second biggest zone in the game according to the pixel counting post above.

You have to understand this game was built using the Hero Engine. This engine is a piece of crap that only one other game in the entire world uses (SWTOR). The devs are extremely limited in what they can do with it. You're never going to get zones as big and as detailed as those found in single player games in an MMO, especially not in old MMOs running on crappy engines.

Wait, so it's only the second biggest now? ZOS said it would be the biggest. So they lied, right? And we're still not accounting for explorable space, which would make their statement even more misleading.

MLGProPlayer

psychotrip wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

leeux wrote: »

For me at least, is not about the size or the quality of content, is about believability (is that even a word?), and by that I mean the fact that Summerset Isles was supposed to be one thing in the lore, and many of us (I believe, at least) expected it to be the seat of a full TES game someday.

But now ESO is setting it the base for future lore and if the isle is tiny (and I mean, it IS tiny, comparing it with any TES single player games) that means that we will never get a proper version of it, nor that the old lore is valid... and boom, years of expectation and lore are thrown away, just for the sake of greedyness/quick buck return.

It's not tiny. It's still the second biggest zone in the game according to the pixel counting post above.

You have to understand this game was built using the Hero Engine. This engine is a piece of crap that only one other game in the entire world uses (SWTOR). The devs are extremely limited in what they can do with it. You're never going to get zones as big and as detailed as those found in single player games in an MMO, especially not in old MMOs running on crappy engines.

Wait, so it's only the second biggest now? ZOS said it would be the biggest. So they lied, right? And we're still not accounting for explorable space, which would make their statement even more misleading.

The post above accounted for explorable space only: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5092400/#Comment_5092400

Not sure how you missed the bright green neon colours...

The comparison also doesn't take Artaeum into account.

psychotrip

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

leeux wrote: »

For me at least, is not about the size or the quality of content, is about believability (is that even a word?), and by that I mean the fact that Summerset Isles was supposed to be one thing in the lore, and many of us (I believe, at least) expected it to be the seat of a full TES game someday.

But now ESO is setting it the base for future lore and if the isle is tiny (and I mean, it IS tiny, comparing it with any TES single player games) that means that we will never get a proper version of it, nor that the old lore is valid... and boom, years of expectation and lore are thrown away, just for the sake of greedyness/quick buck return.

It's not tiny. It's still the second biggest zone in the game according to the pixel counting post above.

You have to understand this game was built using the Hero Engine. This engine is a piece of crap that only one other game in the entire world uses (SWTOR). The devs are extremely limited in what they can do with it. You're never going to get zones as big and as detailed as those found in single player games in an MMO, especially not in old MMOs running on crappy engines.

Wait, so it's only the second biggest now? ZOS said it would be the biggest. So they lied, right? And we're still not accounting for explorable space, which would make their statement even more misleading.

The post above accounted for explorable space only: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5092400/#Comment_5092400

Not sure how you missed the bright green neon colours...

The comparison also doesn't take Artaeum into account.

I missed it because clicking on my notifications brought me directly to your post. To me, the explorable space looks about the same. So, not good, but not as bad as some feared.

So, we're still saying Summerset is smaller, right? Because, again, that would mean ZOS lied.

Lysette

It depends as well if you just count the over-world "outdoor" content or the whole explorable area including "indoor" areas. The over-world feels small IMO, but I did not look at any of the other content, because I want to play that in the finished product and not in a beta. Basically what I mean with it is, that one would have to compare enjoyable playable content, which is hard and not the same for everyone. Like the industry says a game has like 50 hours of gameplay - and I play it for years and have not even seen all - this is all so relative - would be interesting to know, how ZOS is measuring it - maybe in man-hours required to create the content?

Dracane

Just wanted to add something that people in this thread have overlooked. The area I have marked in red, is actually the Aldmeri Grotto home and is accessible. The Grotto is inside the mountain Not defending the general direction of this thread though. I am still convinced, that we have been lied to and that Summerset is not bigger than Vvardenfell in any way.

leeux

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

leeux wrote: »

For me at least, is not about the size or the quality of content, is about believability (is that even a word?), and by that I mean the fact that Summerset Isles was supposed to be one thing in the lore, and many of us (I believe, at least) expected it to be the seat of a full TES game someday.

But now ESO is setting it the base for future lore and if the isle is tiny (and I mean, it IS tiny, comparing it with any TES single player games) that means that we will never get a proper version of it, nor that the old lore is valid... and boom, years of expectation and lore are thrown away, just for the sake of greedyness/quick buck return.

It's not tiny. It's still the second biggest zone in the game according to the pixel counting post above.

You have to understand this game was built using the Hero Engine. This engine is a piece of crap that only one other game in the entire world uses (SWTOR). The devs are extremely limited in what they can do with it. You're never going to get zones as big and as detailed as those found in single player games in an MMO, especially not in old MMOs running on crappy engines.

Yeah, I meant relatively speaking w.r.t. full sized TES games... compared with those is kinda small. What I mean is, even if you extrapolate a lot, you would be hard pressed to make a full TES single player located in Summerset without contradicting ESO's portrayal [1]. Can we agree with that at least?

W.r.t the zones available in ESO, I agree that it is at least as larger as Vvardenfell... even if feelings deceive due to PoV and type of landscape. But, as I said, I'm more worried about what will this imply for the future of the series...

[1] Unless they retcon a lot of it, or don't consider it as canon, which in itself has also negative implications, IMO of course.

Soldier224

(Red Stroke) Small? No:

Blacknight841

XomRhoK wrote: »

Summerset 176837 pixels

Vvardenfell 229226 pixels

According to this pictures, explorable part of Vvardenfell almost 30% bigger then explorable part of Summerset or in other words explorable part of Summerset almost 23% smaller then explorable part of Vvardenfell.

This is great, but think it should include the explorable area added with Artaeum as well. Considering it was technically added with the chapter. Doubt it would make much of a difference though.

Seraphayel

Lysette wrote: »

It depends as well if you just count the over-world "outdoor" content or the whole explorable area including "indoor" areas. The over-world feels small IMO, but I did not look at any of the other content, because I want to play that in the finished product and not in a beta. Basically what I mean with it is, that one would have to compare enjoyable playable content, which is hard and not the same for everyone. Like the industry says a game has like 50 hours of gameplay - and I play it for years and have not even seen all - this is all so relative - would be interesting to know, how ZOS is measuring it - maybe in man-hours required to create the content?

Then we need to count all indoor content and not just Summerset's. In the end it will change almost nothing when it comes to (accessible) content of the zone / size of the zone.

Radinyn wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

@psychotrip I'm just parodying how ridiculously obsessed some people have become over the physical size of the map.

Also, do you have a source for the quote that Summerset is the biggest zone? I would like to see the context. Is it biggest as in scale? Or biggest as in volume of content within?

"For the first time since The Elder Scrolls: Arena, you can visit the Isle of Summerset and explore an all-new land packed full of exciting adventures and stunning locations in a zone even larger than the one found in The Elder Scrolls Online's last Chapter, Morrowind."

As for your question about what "larger" means, this is sort of the problem. It seems ZOS was being deliberately misleading, giving us a zone that might be technically larger, but without giving us access to large chunks of the space, making it significantly smaller.

Now, you'll probably respond by saying "Well they just said it was larger! They didn't say anything about explorable space". Well, this is the definition of a misleading statement. What's the point, what's even the draw of a "big" zone if you can't access the places that make it bigger? There was no reason to advertise the size unless they wanted us to believe it would affect us in some way.

It's a lie by omission.

1. It has more explorable space, previous posts confirmed it.

2. It has more and bigger quests.

3. It has bigger public dungeons and delves.

4. It is larger than Morrowind in every aspect except it has 2 skilllines and not 3

5. You are fake news.

1. No, it hasn't.

2. No, it hasn't. The main zone quest might be the longest yet though, granted.

3. No, it hasn't.

4. No, it isn't.

5. Who's fake news here? It's not @psychotrip.

grizzledcroc

The main quest line is way longer that vvardenfels thats for sure.