ESO: Morrowind Size Comparison (Now With A Summerset Update)

Nestor

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh man, some guys still claiming Summerset is bigger than Auridon or Vvardenfell when everybody can just travel it on PTS and see that it's not. And no, the underground "content" is no excuse.

I did not know there was a PTS for the PS4

Dominoid

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Now the comparation should be between Auridon and ridiculously tiny Summerset, wich instead of a volcano has four huge unaccessible mountains. What a scam. Glad I didn't pre order it.

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

summon @Dominoid new comparsions about Summerset in progress?

Quick and dirty . . .

Most of the arguments I've seen are like taking a map of the world that is 10" x 10" and comparing it to a map of my city that is 12" x 12" and declaring my city is larger, because the map is larger. Looking at a map of Auridon and a map of Summerset and comparing just the map size is . . . well . . wrong.

You need to know the scale of the map. For that we have two options. The first is number of in-game cells which to the engine is a standard unit of measure. Vvardenfell is 81 x 81. Summerset is 144 x 144. Can't find base-game zone sizes right now.

The second is to measure how how far one walks on the Tamriel map over a fixed set of time. For example getting an assist from Map Coordinates and walking in one direction for ten seconds in Vvardenfell you traverse 1.4958 Tamriel map units. Doing so in Summerset, you traverse 1.2179. Doing so in Auridon, you traverse 1.7084 units. This makes the scale of Summerset 40.27% larger than Auridon. That would look like this:



Are there mountains? Yep. Can you get UNDER those mountains (no spoilers)? Yep. . . . maybe I'll do more. And Don't forget about Arteum as a zone too which is part of Summerset the Chapter.

That is not an accurate scale comparison. Take a look at this:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5066171/#Comment_5066171

That map is wrong. All it does it cut the Auridon map and the Summerset map and put them next to each other. You can't do that. The scales are different. Observe. Colorado is CLEARLY larger than the whole world.



That's all that other post is doing.

Seraphayel

Nestor wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh man, some guys still claiming Summerset is bigger than Auridon or Vvardenfell when everybody can just travel it on PTS and see that it's not. And no, the underground "content" is no excuse.

I did not know there was a PTS for the PS4

That would change exactly what? You just have proven wrong regarding the size of Summerset. Not that I am surprised but it's blatantly obvious now the PTS is accessible for many players.

Dominoid

Seraphayel wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh man, some guys still claiming Summerset is bigger than Auridon or Vvardenfell when everybody can just travel it on PTS and see that it's not. And no, the underground "content" is no excuse.

I did not know there was a PTS for the PS4

That would change exactly what? You just have proven wrong regarding the size of Summerset. Not that I am surprised but it's blatantly obvious now the PTS is accessible for many players.

Sorry dude. Your "feels" does not change the math. Summerset is larger.

Seraphayel

Dominoid wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh man, some guys still claiming Summerset is bigger than Auridon or Vvardenfell when everybody can just travel it on PTS and see that it's not. And no, the underground "content" is no excuse.

I did not know there was a PTS for the PS4

That would change exactly what? You just have proven wrong regarding the size of Summerset. Not that I am surprised but it's blatantly obvious now the PTS is accessible for many players.

Sorry dude. Your "feels" does not change the math. Summerset is larger.

Your "math" does not carry over into the experience while playing and traveling Summerset.

Nestor

Seraphayel wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Oh man, some guys still claiming Summerset is bigger than Auridon or Vvardenfell when everybody can just travel it on PTS and see that it's not. And no, the underground "content" is no excuse.

I did not know there was a PTS for the PS4

That would change exactly what? You just have proven wrong regarding the size of Summerset. Not that I am surprised but it's blatantly obvious now the PTS is accessible for many players.

How have I been proven wrong? That has not been established. We have already seen the maps scaled to the same objects, and Summerset is bigger than Auridon. If your basing your view on the roads drawn on the map, well that is artwork. Same as any road drawn on any atlas is much bigger than it really is.

Remember what I said in the last thread we had this discussion on? That once you experience the zone for yourself, then your opinion would be be something to discuss. Your basing your opinion on third party reports that have questionable accuracy and influenced by your desire for this new content to be less than you want it to be.

The only thing proven is you don't like the new map that you have not visited.

CurlyQTip

I don't give a *** about the size of the map so much as the quality of the content and the variety of the content

New Vegas didn't have that large of the map, and yet it was one of the best experiences out there, filled with endless quality content that devs put blood and sweat into.

Seraphayel

Actually I am basing my opinion on 1) having tried it on the PTS yesterday and 2) YouTube videos where players travel the entire map within a really short amount of time.

It is not my desire that Summerset is a joke when it comes to content and size. My desire was to get the glorious islands of Summerset in their full size and not 40% blocked off by mountains.

It's hilarious how we're discussing now if Summerset is bigger than Auridon. That's so absurd. It should be two, maybe three times as big as Auridon. And at best it's barely bigger. That's wrong on so many levels. But as I said the last time, I am not surprised that your biased.

Nestor

CurlyQTip wrote: »

I don't give a *** about the size of the map so much as the quality of the content and the variety of the content

New Vegas didn't have that large of the map, and yet it was one of the best experiences out there, filled with endless quality content that devs put blood and sweat into.

I can't tell you much on that, but I can tell you there is a lot of content in the new zone. And it has a deep rich story too.

CurlyQTip

Nestor wrote: »

CurlyQTip wrote: »

I don't give a *** about the size of the map so much as the quality of the content and the variety of the content

New Vegas didn't have that large of the map, and yet it was one of the best experiences out there, filled with endless quality content that devs put blood and sweat into.

I can't tell you much on that, but I can tell you there is a lot of content in the new zone. And it has a deep rich story too.

I'll trust your word on that, I'll have to find out myself either way really

morrowind did have some refreshing content, and one of the best training delves 'Nchuleftingth', which is pronounced by sneezing loudly

XomRhoK

Dominoid wrote: »

Quick and dirty . . .

Most of the arguments I've seen are like taking a map of the world that is 10" x 10" and comparing it to a map of my city that is 12" x 12" and declaring my city is larger, because the map is larger. Looking at a map of Auridon and a map of Summerset and comparing just the map size is . . . well . . wrong.

You need to know the scale of the map. For that we have two options. The first is number of in-game cells which to the engine is a standard unit of measure. Vvardenfell is 81 x 81. Summerset is 144 x 144. Can't find base-game zone sizes right now.

The second is to measure how how far one walks on the Tamriel map over a fixed set of time. For example getting an assist from Map Coordinates and walking in one direction for ten seconds in Vvardenfell you traverse 1.4958 Tamriel map units. Doing so in Summerset, you traverse 1.2179. Doing so in Auridon, you traverse 1.7084 units. This makes the scale of Summerset 40.27% larger than Auridon. That would look like this:



Are there mountains? Yep. Can you get UNDER those mountains (no spoilers)? Yep. . . . maybe I'll do more. And Don't forget about Arteum as a zone too which is part of Summerset the Chapter.

There is a flaw in this method. If you transfer this to the real world it will look like this: you traveled to the first country, ran with specific speed and specific amount of time and ran 1.4958 kilometers, then you traveled to another country, ran with same speed and same amount of time and ran 1.2179 kilometers, in third country with same speed and time you ran 1.7084 kilometers. Does this feel ok?

Radinyn

XomRhoK wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

Quick and dirty . . .

Most of the arguments I've seen are like taking a map of the world that is 10" x 10" and comparing it to a map of my city that is 12" x 12" and declaring my city is larger, because the map is larger. Looking at a map of Auridon and a map of Summerset and comparing just the map size is . . . well . . wrong.

You need to know the scale of the map. For that we have two options. The first is number of in-game cells which to the engine is a standard unit of measure. Vvardenfell is 81 x 81. Summerset is 144 x 144. Can't find base-game zone sizes right now.

The second is to measure how how far one walks on the Tamriel map over a fixed set of time. For example getting an assist from Map Coordinates and walking in one direction for ten seconds in Vvardenfell you traverse 1.4958 Tamriel map units. Doing so in Summerset, you traverse 1.2179. Doing so in Auridon, you traverse 1.7084 units. This makes the scale of Summerset 40.27% larger than Auridon. That would look like this:



Are there mountains? Yep. Can you get UNDER those mountains (no spoilers)? Yep. . . . maybe I'll do more. And Don't forget about Arteum as a zone too which is part of Summerset the Chapter.

There is a flaw in this method. If you transfer this to the real world it will look like this: you traveled to the first country, ran with specific speed and specific amount of time and ran 1.4958 kilometers, then you traveled to another country, ran with same speed and same amount of time and ran 1.2179 kilometers, in third country with same speed and time you ran 1.7084 kilometers. Does this feel ok?

It's not real life tho.

Elsonso

XomRhoK wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

Quick and dirty . . .

Most of the arguments I've seen are like taking a map of the world that is 10" x 10" and comparing it to a map of my city that is 12" x 12" and declaring my city is larger, because the map is larger. Looking at a map of Auridon and a map of Summerset and comparing just the map size is . . . well . . wrong.

You need to know the scale of the map. For that we have two options. The first is number of in-game cells which to the engine is a standard unit of measure. Vvardenfell is 81 x 81. Summerset is 144 x 144. Can't find base-game zone sizes right now.

The second is to measure how how far one walks on the Tamriel map over a fixed set of time. For example getting an assist from Map Coordinates and walking in one direction for ten seconds in Vvardenfell you traverse 1.4958 Tamriel map units. Doing so in Summerset, you traverse 1.2179. Doing so in Auridon, you traverse 1.7084 units. This makes the scale of Summerset 40.27% larger than Auridon. That would look like this:



Are there mountains? Yep. Can you get UNDER those mountains (no spoilers)? Yep. . . . maybe I'll do more. And Don't forget about Arteum as a zone too which is part of Summerset the Chapter.

There is a flaw in this method. If you transfer this to the real world it will look like this: you traveled to the first country, ran with specific speed and specific amount of time and ran 1.4958 kilometers, then you traveled to another country, ran with same speed and same amount of time and ran 1.2179 kilometers, in third country with same speed and time you ran 1.7084 kilometers. Does this feel ok?

Nothing forces ZOS to make each zone scaled the same, and they are not. Imagine, if you will, that each of those three countries gets to define how long a kilometer is. That's ESO. Imagine how much bigger Luxembourg could be if they did that!

XomRhoK

Radinyn wrote: »

It's not real life tho.

Funny.

I just want to say that with his assumptation, that in-game cells is a standard unit of measure to the engine, he, with identical speed and identical time, ran different distances (amount of in-game cells). And that impossible. There is two options:
1) Psijics affects spacetime
2) His assumptation that in-game cells is a standard unit of measure to the engine is wrong

Dominoid

XomRhoK wrote: »

Radinyn wrote: »

It's not real life tho.

Funny.

I just want to say that with his assumptation, that in-game cells is a standard unit of measure to the engine, he, with identical speed and identical time, ran different distances (amount of in-game cells). And that impossible. There is two options:
1) Psijics affects spacetime
2) His assumptation that in-game cells is a standard unit of measure to the engine is wrong

I never said the distance was in-game cells. The distance is map distance. All maps start at 0,0 in the upper left and end at 100,100 in the bottom right. Each map is a different number of in-game cells. Vvardenfell being 81x81 and Summerset being 144x144. A “city’’ Map for exam-or might be 10x10 but it’s still 0,0 and 100,100. I did not cover in-game cells traversed.

Dominoid

lordrichter wrote: »

XomRhoK wrote: »

Dominoid wrote: »

Quick and dirty . . .

Most of the arguments I've seen are like taking a map of the world that is 10" x 10" and comparing it to a map of my city that is 12" x 12" and declaring my city is larger, because the map is larger. Looking at a map of Auridon and a map of Summerset and comparing just the map size is . . . well . . wrong.

You need to know the scale of the map. For that we have two options. The first is number of in-game cells which to the engine is a standard unit of measure. Vvardenfell is 81 x 81. Summerset is 144 x 144. Can't find base-game zone sizes right now.

The second is to measure how how far one walks on the Tamriel map over a fixed set of time. For example getting an assist from Map Coordinates and walking in one direction for ten seconds in Vvardenfell you traverse 1.4958 Tamriel map units. Doing so in Summerset, you traverse 1.2179. Doing so in Auridon, you traverse 1.7084 units. This makes the scale of Summerset 40.27% larger than Auridon. That would look like this:



Are there mountains? Yep. Can you get UNDER those mountains (no spoilers)? Yep. . . . maybe I'll do more. And Don't forget about Arteum as a zone too which is part of Summerset the Chapter.

There is a flaw in this method. If you transfer this to the real world it will look like this: you traveled to the first country, ran with specific speed and specific amount of time and ran 1.4958 kilometers, then you traveled to another country, ran with same speed and same amount of time and ran 1.2179 kilometers, in third country with same speed and time you ran 1.7084 kilometers. Does this feel ok?

Nothing forces ZOS to make each zone scaled the same, and they are not. Imagine, if you will, that each of those three countries gets to define how long a kilometer is. That's ESO. Imagine how much bigger Luxembourg could be if they did that!

This is the perfect analogy. Each local government of Tamriel decides their own unit of map distance. Lol

CurlyQTip

One mentality i learned to adopt is thinking about canon size and population relative to ingame size and population

I think of skyrim for example as canonically being far more vast and populated than is allowed in game

There are very few games that actually feel like they are properly sized. Witcher 3 is a great example of this. Making a game feel as large as a real city is very very hard to do. Usually games mess it up massively.

DanteYoda

Size only matters if you know how to use it..

XomRhoK

Dominoid wrote: »

I never said the distance was in-game cells. The distance is map distance. All maps start at 0,0 in the upper left and end at 100,100 in the bottom right. Each map is a different number of in-game cells. Vvardenfell being 81x81 and Summerset being 144x144. A “city’’ Map for exam-or might be 10x10 but it’s still 0,0 and 100,100. I did not cover in-game cells traversed.

Ok, now i understand that you count distance in map coordinates, which always 0,0-100,100 no matter the size of the map, that make sense. And your picture fit perfectly with size of Summerset at in game map from PTS

Dominoid wrote: »

Astrid_V wrote: »

Guys, I've found something interesting...
Appartently they also intentionally changed shape of the whole island on Tamriel map:

But size of the ships in docks at your picture different at Summerset and Auridon approximately at 84% (i measured image of the ships at the screen with ruler ), exact as @Shinni said in his post

Shinni wrote: »

My addon HarvestMap has to measure the zone, so it can properly display 3D pins and compute distance between resources etc.
When I debugged HarvestMap to track the new jewelry resources, I realized that the size of the zone does not match the size of the 2D map.
Using the addon API, you can compute that Summerset is 84% of its size compared to the Tamriel map.

So it seems they somehow scaled map size of Summerset compared to in game size. I think @Shinni can explain better what they did.

asuitandtyb14_ESO

CurlyQTip wrote: »

One mentality i learned to adopt is thinking about canon size and population relative to ingame size and population

I think of skyrim for example as canonically being far more vast and populated than is allowed in game

There are very few games that actually feel like they are properly sized. Witcher 3 is a great example of this. Making a game feel as large as a real city is very very hard to do. Usually games mess it up massively.

Sure, that's definitely a thing. However, even what is there representing the "theoretical" Summerset is not representing it properly. I've read the pocket guide that came with Oblivion, and all the various lore books. This Summerset does match the described look, feel, or infrastructure that has been established in the lore. So this Summerset does not match it size wise, or lore wise. I mean, if it at least met it lore wise I'd maybe be willing to overlook the size, which is what I was able to do with Vvardenfell.

Elsonso

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

CurlyQTip wrote: »

One mentality i learned to adopt is thinking about canon size and population relative to ingame size and population

I think of skyrim for example as canonically being far more vast and populated than is allowed in game

There are very few games that actually feel like they are properly sized. Witcher 3 is a great example of this. Making a game feel as large as a real city is very very hard to do. Usually games mess it up massively.

Sure, that's definitely a thing. However, even what is there representing the "theoretical" Summerset is not representing it properly. I've read the pocket guide that came with Oblivion, and all the various lore books. This Summerset does match the described look, feel, or infrastructure that has been established in the lore. So this Summerset does not match it size wise, or lore wise. I mean, if it at least met it lore wise I'd maybe be willing to overlook the size, which is what I was able to do with Vvardenfell.

That's the thing with Elder Scrolls lore that is both interesting and disturbing. Anyone can say what they want, and those books and maps are part of the lore, but they don't have to be strictly accurate. They don't have to be accurate at all.

I view visiting a location to trump all written descriptions and maps.

Where ZOS can fail with lore is more in the rolling back of time for places visited in previous games, like Cyrodiil (in particular).

asuitandtyb14_ESO

lordrichter wrote: »

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

CurlyQTip wrote: »

One mentality i learned to adopt is thinking about canon size and population relative to ingame size and population

I think of skyrim for example as canonically being far more vast and populated than is allowed in game

There are very few games that actually feel like they are properly sized. Witcher 3 is a great example of this. Making a game feel as large as a real city is very very hard to do. Usually games mess it up massively.

Sure, that's definitely a thing. However, even what is there representing the "theoretical" Summerset is not representing it properly. I've read the pocket guide that came with Oblivion, and all the various lore books. This Summerset does match the described look, feel, or infrastructure that has been established in the lore. So this Summerset does not match it size wise, or lore wise. I mean, if it at least met it lore wise I'd maybe be willing to overlook the size, which is what I was able to do with Vvardenfell.

That's the thing with Elder Scrolls lore that is both interesting and disturbing. Anyone can say what they want, and those books and maps are part of the lore, but they don't have to be strictly accurate. They don't have to be accurate at all.

I view visiting a location to trump all written descriptions and maps.

Where ZOS can fail with lore is more in the rolling back of time for places visited in previous games, like Cyrodiil (in particular).

I get where you're coming from, but that's not what I meant. Sure a lot of the lore books are intentionally, or unintentionally biased writings, and I'm not referring to those. I'm referring to the basic facts established over various books, such as Cyrodiil had a jungle, or Summerset is a caste based society, it uses goblins for slave labour, and much of the island is farmland, and/or settled.

jazsper77

Vvardenfell is NOT bigger then WROTHGAR period. Man the defenders of ZOS work hard to cover for them. Smh

ClockworkCityBugs

jazsper77 wrote: »

Vvardenfell is NOT bigger then WROTHGAR period. Man the defenders of ZOS work hard to cover for them. Smh

first post proved you wrong
go try again

Elsonso

jazsper77 wrote: »

Vvardenfell is NOT bigger then WROTHGAR period. Man the defenders of ZOS work hard to cover for them. Smh

If you spend any time in Vvardenfell, it is pretty clear that it is larger than Wrothgar. I've been doing the daily quests in both for this anniversary event and that much is certain.

MLGProPlayer

jazsper77 wrote: »

Vvardenfell is NOT bigger then WROTHGAR period. Man the defenders of ZOS work hard to cover for them. Smh

Except it is.

https://youtu.be/5lMxZZ3l8-U

Seraphayel

Summerset is still significantly smaller than Vvardenfell and just rivals Auridon in size. Summerset is far from being the biggest zone (or even one of the biggest zones) in ESO.

And as some claimed, there is not more content in Summerset than in your usual vanilla zone. The "underground" content doesn't change that.

MLGProPlayer

Seraphayel wrote: »

Summerset is still significantly smaller than Vvardenfell and just rivals Auridon in size. Summerset is far from being the biggest zone (or even one of the biggest zones) in ESO.

And as some claimed, there is not more content in Summerset than in your usual vanilla zone. The "underground" content doesn't change that.

Sorry, but you're wrong: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5065181/#Comment_5065181

psychotrip

Seraphayel wrote: »

Summerset is still significantly smaller than Vvardenfell and just rivals Auridon in size. Summerset is far from being the biggest zone (or even one of the biggest zones) in ESO.

And as some claimed, there is not more content in Summerset than in your usual vanilla zone. The "underground" content doesn't change that.

This is what's important. They told us one thing, and gave us another.

danno8

jazsper77 wrote: »

Vvardenfell is NOT bigger then WROTHGAR period.

Sorry, I couldn't resist!