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Selective noncommutivity of Warrior CP

Asayre
Asayre
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In certain situations, the order in which Warrior CP is assigned appears to affect damage calculation in both PvP and PvE. It appears that putting points into Hardy/Elemental Defender before Ironclad/Thick Skinned is the safest method.

In the image below, I show the damage done to me by Bloodspawn's Claw attack first with no Warrior CP assigned (5349, 3387 damage). I then put 100 points into Ironclad and then 100 points into Hardy and take 3424 and 2168 damage (~36% damage reduction). I remove all my Warrior CP and then assign 100 points into Hardy and then 100 points into Ironclad and take 3210 and 2033 damage (40% damage reduction).
74855a57506766b945a6aa1441bc7a2f.png


This phenomena is reproducible in PvP. The image below shows me taking 2235 damage from Crystal Fragments with no Warrior CP assigned. This is reduced to 1431(36% damage reduction) when 100 points is invested in Ironclad then 100 points in Elemental Defender. Swapping the order (that is 100 points in Elemental Defender then 100 points in Ironclad) results in a damage of 1341 (40% damage reduction).
0ad20bec00ff77ce8d471a498b6df07c.png


Further testing on the PTS suggest that this non-commutivity appears when there is significant investment in Ironclad and Hardy, specifically when the sum of floored tooltips reaches 25, 29, 33 and 36.
Graph1.png
Edited by Asayre on May 27, 2017 10:44AM
Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Liofa
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    This game and its wonders ^^ Thank you so much for your amazing work , this will be very handy for all of us :)
  • getemshauna
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    Aight...
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  • karma69
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    Wow. This game is literally logically broken. Very amazing work though, thank you for sharing.
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  • Fallewarrior
    Fallewarrior
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    Inb4 this also works on the blue cp tree..

    Zose maths op!
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  • Flak
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    Thanks for your work, good to know.

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  • Alcast
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    Wow...interesting..thanks! Does the same thing happen on the Blue CP Trees?
    Edited by Alcast on May 27, 2017 12:15PM
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  • WalksonGraves
    WalksonGraves
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    Glad someone caught this, wtf is the point of open betas? Did they stop doing inhouse QA because the public is free?
  • BEZDNA
    BEZDNA
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    @Asayre

    These is a vary interesting finding. May i ask does these results remain same after you relog?
  • Gilvoth
    Gilvoth
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    i hope zenimax comments on this thread about this.
  • Flameheart
    Flameheart
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    This is unbelievable....

    Thx for your work.
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  • Senaja
    Senaja
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    The both kinds of CP works diffrent i think:

    Hardy first, Ironclad last: 100 Damage Taken * 0,85 - (100*0,25) = 60 %

    Ironclad first, Hardy last: (100 Damage Taken - (100*0,25)) * 0,85 = 63,75 %

    I think that´s the problem. Coincides with @Asayre 36% and 40% in the first post.
    Edited by Senaja on May 27, 2017 5:36PM
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  • WalksonGraves
    WalksonGraves
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    This is such a huge mistake, I'm blown away by the sheer incompetence.
  • Masel
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    Can you test this for the Blue CP tree on top? It seems they work multiplicative instead of additive in those cases..
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  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    It seems that this feature is unique to Warrior CP. Mage CP does not show this behaviour. The affect persist through character selection and logout.

    I agree that going Hardy > Ironclad makes it additive and Ironclad > Hardy multiplicative.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • WhiteMage
    WhiteMage
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    Jeez, how does one even program it that way?
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  • Apherius
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    Wow ,very interesting ,thank for this ! ;)
    Edited by Apherius on May 27, 2017 8:38PM
  • code65536
    code65536
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    I wonder what would happen if you assigned them at the same time...
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  • Masel
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    code65536 wrote: »
    I wonder what would happen if you assigned them at the same time...

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  • theamazingx
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    Somewhere in the Master-at-Arms code...

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  • HoloYoitsu
    HoloYoitsu
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    Asayre wrote: »
    In certain situations, the order in which Warrior CP is assigned appears to affect damage calculation in both PvP and PvE. It appears that putting points into Hardy/Elemental Defender before Ironclad/Thick Skinned is the safest method.
    Oh5MIjz.gif
  • Rinmaethodain
    Rinmaethodain
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    This *** should be posted in general discussion so more people see it, im kind of getting tired of these "quirks" and undocumented changes.
  • LukosCreyden
    LukosCreyden
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    This is very bizzare. A slight mishap? That would be understandable. These things happen. Or is the game really made of bundles upon bundles of spaghetti code? If so, what will break if this gets fixed?
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  • Teridaxus
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    Can zos just hire you at this point?
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  • DeadlyPhoenix
    DeadlyPhoenix
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    Just makes you wonder what other little things they put in this game intentionally just to give themselves and their friends and advantage over the rest of the community....

    There is a reason vMOL has always been exploitable and able to get outside of the map to complete it....

    More shady business...

    Maybe if they quit trying to put secret things into the game to give themselves an advantage, it wouldn't be so screwed up.
  • timidobserver
    timidobserver
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    Asayre wrote: »
    It seems that this feature is unique to Warrior CP. Mage CP does not show this behaviour. The affect persist through character selection and logout.

    I agree that going Hardy > Ironclad makes it additive and Ironclad > Hardy multiplicative.
    @Asayre
    Im not sure if you have this information, but ...

    Which is correct/intended? Should it be additive or multiplicative?
    Edited by timidobserver on May 28, 2017 5:04PM
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  • WalksonGraves
    WalksonGraves
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    Bethesda has a long history of totally broken games with mechanics hidden from the player so it's hard to notice (see skyrim perk interactions, all of F4's combat) but I hoped a new dev and the pressure of appeasing a player base would break those bad habits.

    No free community made unofficial patches to fix their bugs for them this time.
  • Demycilian
    Demycilian
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    Thanks for this, ZOS.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    For god's sake... ZoS you should fire Wrobel and hire Asayre for development.

    @Asayre Thanks for your work =)
    Edited by Xvorg on May 28, 2017 6:39PM
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