Why I do not find what's on the PTS fun and other stuff
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Joy_Division
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I have written this comprehensive post mostly because of the countless hours and fond memories I have had playing this game. Like many people, I hold a very strong opinion about the Morrowind expansion. In appreciation of my enjoyable time with ESO that was made possible by creators, developers, and other people at Zenimax Online Studios, I think it’s only right that I express my assessments in such a way that they have asked, namely playing on the PTS and taking in account a holistic view of the Elder Scrolls Online. They deserve the curtesy of me investing my time to do this. I tried to make this post respectful as I am grateful to the talented and creative folks I am addressing: @ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_JessicaFolsom , @ZOS_RichLambert , @Wrobel , @ZOS_Finn , @ZOS_BrianWheeler , not sure who else to tag. If I do not always attain that standard, I apologize and can assure it is not intentional. It is the unwanted byproduct of passion.
I have iterated. I have done the two things in solo PvE content that are competitive enough to test these changes on the PTS: vMA five times and soloed some world bosses. Most of my feedback is based on this. I have also been in the new Fabrication trial (having got up to the second boss) and have done a few BGs. Additionally I have considered long term trends dating back to Launch and in particular, the 1.6 patch and introduction of the Champion System.
The most important piece of feedback I have to offer is I do not find what is on the PTS fun. I fell in love with ESO because of the “fast-paced action” combat and because the characters I played had a distinctive and perceptible impact on that combat with their abilities. I do not find either to be the case on the PTS. I have “adapted” and successfully completed the content ESO has to offer. Doing so is possible and thus not my critique. Rather what’s on the PTS pales in comparison with what I purchased and what kept me logging in despite the game’s many many problems since its Launch.
A parallel for people who have been gaming since the first George Bush has been president
The other relevant feedback I would offer is that these changes are heavily biased toward the better geared/more experienced players, i.e., the “ceiling,” which is contrary to what ZoS wishes. I will explain why based on my iterations (i.e. not theoretical).
I will begin this post with some assertions that ZoS has been floating around that I find questionable.
Infinite Resources
I don’t know quite what to make of this statement because on the specs that I play (mag templar, mag dragonknight, mag sorcerer), if I build for maximum damage then I quickly run out of resources. The only way I can sustain in a fight of any appreciable length is to do exactly what ZoS’s goal in this patch: incorporate resource-management in my build and playstyle. Is “infinite sustain” a Nightblade thing or maybe stamina DKs can do it in PvP? In any event, in my estimation a precision scalpel should have been used to address resource sustain issues rather than a sledgehammer.
The only time I can run a build for maximum damage and have the resources to sustain it is if I have lots of CPs and if skilled teammates are debuffing my targets and using support skills like Elemental Drain and Energy Orbs. In short, in group and raid play with players working together. Isn’t this the sort of synergistic gameplay we want? Why is this a problem? Why is ZoS nerfing all of us even in single instances such as vMA where this problem is not applicable? Even with all the supposed power we players have, I’m not convinced we are too powerful for the content. As it is we beat Sanctum Ophidia by exploiting three of the boss fights and the groups that I raid with have not even tried to do AA or Hel Ra hard mode
I don’t accept ZoS’s claim here. I here it uttered most often in the context of aggravations about pvP complaining, which is incredibly frustrating because PvPers have their own specialty designed campaign that they have already acknowledged addresses this issue.
PvP and PvE
PvE and PvP are already separated into three games systems. There is the regular base-game (PvE). There are standard Cyrodiil campaigns (PvE plus Battlespirit). There is the non-CP Azura’s Star campaign format that will also govern upcoming Battlegrounds (PvE with Battlespirit but with no Champion System). The Rubicon has already been crossed. That ship has already sailed. The horse is already out of the barn.
Ask anyone who plays in Azura’s Star and has ever been hit with a proc set, poison drain, siege weapon, or had to deal with an opponent wearing the Troll King set if there is a “single unified game.” If CP is such a critical system for endgame progression and a crucial component of our characters, how is it possible to remove this entire system for Azura’s Star and Battlegrounds and tell us PvE and PvP work consistently? They don’t. The very fact that I need to have different builds for PvE, my Trueflame home campaign, and the upcoming Battlegrounds contradicts what I heard on last week’s ESO that there is “one cohesive game” and that it’s “not a different experience.”
This does not even go into the many fundamental and core based crucial game mechanics changes (read: nerfs) made because of our rising power due to CPs such as block cost increase and consecutive dodge roll penalty that stay in the game and carry over to Battlegrounds where there is no CP. It’s one thing to try and nerf “perma-blockers.” It’s quite another when those mechanics make it prohibitively expensive for a light armor build with a staff to take ESO’s tutorial advice and block incoming high damaging attacks.
I actually would *love* for ESO to balance PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously. It one of the reasons I bought this game in the first place. I agree with ZoS’s intent. What’s sad is that there was a time when ESO functioned reasonably well doing such, at least to the point where many of us weren’t begging you to separate the two: it was called 1.5. The CP system is why we have three different rulesets. I think the next-step ZoS needs to take if they want a “single unified game” is self-evident.
Wardens
I could parrot the majority and joke about how they are pay to win. I know my templar got nerfed to make this class more attractive, however I don’t think the class plays strong, at least the magicka version in PvE. It’s too much about buffs and too little pew pew.
I have done vMA on my Templar thrice on the PTS with different builds each time. My scores were consistent, each in the 430,000 range, so a bit rusty but certainly doable in spite of the nerfs.
This was as far as I got with a magicka Warden before logging off in frustration: 20+ deaths and quitting on the Stage 8 boss.
Can this be chalked up to being unfamiliar with the class? Perhaps. But wait: if I, as someone who knows all the strategies and has two Flawless Conqueror achievements is struggling because of unfamiliarity, does that not indicate Morrowind’s gameplay is overly punishing to players unfamiliar with the gameplay? I know what I’m doing in vMA; the contrast between my Templar(s) and Warden is too stark.
The reoccurring issue was that a big part about Wardens are buffs and this is a problem because we only have 10 bar slots so some of that power is inaccessible and, more importantly, it is not easy to maintain those buffs in competitive situations.
In particular, the DPS was bad. All the DPS checks in the arena were too demanding because I had a hard time maximizing this class’s efficiency, have a decent rotation, it has no convenient execute, and maintain buffs all the time while trying to stay alive and with the resource pinch. My sorcerer needs only critical surge and it functions just fine. I have done vMA on my DK running no buffs!
I also don’t think some of the Warden’s skill are optimal/competitive.
Swarm It’s just a single target DoT. Reflective Light, Cripple, Burning Embers, Poison Injection, etc. all have other really useful functions.
Living Vines It’s a conditional minor heal that only lasts 10 seconds. Rapid Regeneration lasts 16 and ensures I (and another ally) are always getting healed.
Lotus Flower It’s not a bad idea, but the sorcerer’s Surge is much more flexible spell because it will proc heal on everything, plus it gives a more desirable buff (Inner light is too good not to use and potions also give crit).
The other thing I found alarming is that even though this class has a line dedicated to healing, I found myself using other skill-lines to heal/sustain myself. It looks like ZoS made a conscious decision not to have a BoL clone, which is fine, but two heals are group oriented, the HoTs are not up to the challenge vMA throws, and the teleport is not applicable. The Ice heal is only decent for high health tanks, which no vMA build is. This meant resto staff healing ward + harness magicka gave me the best results, which I am not sure speaks well for diversity, to say nothing of this class having much of a (viable) soul.
Maybe in PvP things will be different. Maybe as a healer wardens will be strong. I can’t comment on that. What I will say is that based on my experience in vMA, I think as a standalone class, it is harder to play and that difficulty is not rewarded with a greater relative power.
VMA general feedback
On both my templar and my warden, I did what ZoS wants: incorporate resource management. So I used some cost-reduction glyphs, chose Harness magicka instead of Dampen, and I slotted Elemental Drain. And I spent so much of my time spamming heavy attacks. Not fun. Not interesting. Not compelling, Not rewarding. Not anything except Google “upcoming MMOs in 2017.”
One of the things I noticed while on my Templar was that in spite of these concessions to resource management, I still was killing things faster than I did when I ran this regularly. I have never killed the Ash Titan mini-boss before the adds spawned. I did so here! I began to think one of the adjustments ZoS made in the 3rd PTS was nerfing the health of the NPCs. Nope, I checked. I’m doing more (burst) damage because of that Master-of-Arms CP star and overall “power creep”, right? Am I right in thinking that even though our sustain is going down the toilet and our (prolonged) DPS will take a hit, our short-term burst potential when we actually have resources is stronger?
This is what leads me to think Morrowind will raise the “ceiling” beyond the reach of many on the “floor.”
Too much damage is bad
I think ZoS is mistaken in believing what is harming the integrity of ESO combat is our alleged infinite sustain. Rather, the more pressing issue is that we are capable of doing so much damage. “Stack and burn” is what renders ESO’s mechanics moot, not our resource pools.
Remember way back when bosses like Praxin in Spindleclutch, Garron the Lich in Wayrest Sewers, the Spawn of Mephala in Fungal Grotto, and Keeper Imiril in Banished Cells were actually genuine challenges such that many groups used exploits just to get past them (you remember fighting the Lich in the tunnel, pulling Mephala to the bridge, LOSing Imiril so the adds wouldn’t spawn, of course you do : )? These bosses became pushovers because we now burn them down so fast their threatening mechanics don’t materialize. Our sustain has zero impact on these fights. When the Morrowind patch drops and we do our Undaunted dailies, we will still face-roll all these bosses.
But Joy, won’t players have to adapt to Morrowind by investing more into cost-reduction and thus making it such that player’s DPS wont render these mechanics moot? I will bet real money that does not happen … at least for the “ceiling.” First of all, I already did this on my templar in vMA and I was still dropping things faster than before. Secondly, why would we nerf our damage?
Think of the Fire Maw boss in COA2. That fight is a legit pain in the ass doing it any other way than “stack and burn.” There is no way in Oblivion I would even remotely entertain the thought of doing this fight trying to take down the adds as it was a nightmare to heal even when I had supposed “infinite resources” (and Breath of Life healed 3 targets, and I had major mending, and Breath of Life’s radius was circular instead of conal, and I had a legit Repentance but I digress). Has ZoS’s internal testers tried to take out the Fire Maw on the PTS? I do not believe so because if they tried, I do not think we would have never got a patch in which the only way to beat that boss is to maximize our damage and use our quick (higher) burst damage just so we can completely avoid the intended mechanics in the first place.
If ZoS is so excited about the changes in this update, I would ask them on the next ESO Live to get four developers, go into COA2, and kill that boss without using “stack and burn” and without the platform exploit? I would much appreciate if ZoS showed me the how improvements were benefiting the game rather than merely telling us about them.
Experienced players are not going to do this any other way that “stack and burn” come next patch. I’m not even sure it’s even possible to sustain through the Fire Maw boss. I can still burst for the 20-30 seconds it will take to kill these bosses and that’s what we will continue to do.
But that’s not even the worst of it. The combination of higher damage and less sustain widens the very gap between the players at the “ceiling” and those at the “floor” that ZoS seeks to narrow.
High damage and little sustain = favors the "ceiling" because there is little margin for error
This principle shouldn’t be that difficult to comprehend. You have few resources: you must efficiently use them without making a mistake defeat your opponent because in failing, you do not have the resources to stabilize the situation, heal up, and try again. It’s akin to a single shot rifle with a silver bullet Vs. a werewolf. Don’t miss or you’re dead.
Ever wonder how players like @Alcast , @andy_s , @Gilliamtherogue , etc. can get away with investing literally nothing into resource management and yet breeze through vMA in under 40 minutes? Is because these players do not make mistakes and 100% maximize the efficiency of their tiny resource pools to destroy NPCs before they become a threat. This approach only works if you have their level of skill and experience. These are the players who succeed in such a setting; not the masses of the ESO community.
Thinking back to my PTS vMA runs, it is clear to me this was the reason I struggled so much with the Warden. While I have a Flawless, I am not as good at the content as Alcast and company. Coupled that with a few inefficiencies running the Warden (how much by unfamiliarity or how much by lack of DPS remains to be seen) and that was enough to become a watershed which took me from “Flawless Conqueror” and thinking “the PTS isn’t too bad” to logging out in frustration. I predict the “the patch is ok, we’ll just adapt” crowd will try to adapt, but find there real DPS thresholds that are out of the reach of too many. Everyone knew vMA was just one huge DPS race since it was released. Without a high DPS, you will die on stages 9, 8, 6, 5, 4, and even 1. The PTS changes puts the emphasis and bias on DPS in sharper relief.
I would encourage everyone to read @MissBizz feedback on her vMA experience. I will highlight the key points:
Reading this was hard because I always liked @MissBizz . I remember her posting youtube videos on crafting years ago, she was always an enthusiastic member of the community has done much to promote the game.
What she is posting here bears out my observations. She never had infinite sustain (neither did I). And she is struggling because her approach to vMA has never been out DPSing the content. Such an approach did not work because she no longer has the sustain to overcome all the damage from the adds she is not killing fast enough. In her adjustment to get more sustain, she’s putting out even less damage and exacerbating the core problem to begin with: she is devoting too much of her finite resources to surviving rather than killing NPCs.
To use an example, consider the Boss at the end of stage 8 (the lava with the pillars) as representative of the entire arena. Think of how easy-peasy that boss is if you go all out DPS; it is possible to kill her before a single add appears. This patch has done nothing to discourage (short) burst DPS; in fact, it is stronger. The resource-sustain route she went is a losing battle because ZoS put real bottlenecks in that approach. Let’s mull over the mechanics of how much more difficult the “sustain” approach she tried:
So I ask again, what part of the ESO community are these PTS changes catering too, the “ceiling” or the “floor”? If you are not “gud,” if you are not familiar with the mechanics, if you don’t have the requisite DPS, you are going to use a lot of soul gems.
And I’m going to flat out say this: I’m sorry but there is zero chance of me doing any of the more difficult instanced content without reassurances that the people that I am running with know what they are doing. I have spent enough nights up to 3:00 AM as it is with wipe after wipe after wipe back when we had “infinite sustain” with groups of players whose level of eagerness did not match their experience. I am a teacher and in the past I enjoyed helping folks out, but I do not find the gameplay in this patch enjoyable.
Nerfs are not fun.
There was a time I looked forward to patch notes. It was like Christmas. We’d get up early, mashing our F5 buttons eagerly anticipating reading them; remember the whole “Natch Potes” meme? Now I just dread looking at these because it’s always the same thing: what has been nerfed, what class-defining feature has been taken away, and, oh, Healing Ritual is still a poor skill. Character regression is a difficult pill to swallow in a game oriented to progress / advancement and the loss of class distinctness brings us that much closer to homogenization.
I’m getting tired of all these nerfs. Adapting is one thing when the challenge and potential solutions are legitimately interesting. Show me the section in the patch notes where resource management was something other than a big fat nerf. There’s nothing there. Nerfs have becomes ZoS’s modus operandi such that it is the primary mechanism for how they have developed the game.” Has anything tactical or mechanically stimulating been added to all the heavy attacking we are supposed to do to make it more interesting, compelling, and rewarding? I don’t mind doing them occasionally and I might be more amenable to them if there was some class-based incentive (say a DK heavy attacking a burning target would result in an explosion or something). But that’s still not the case. It’s just tedious gameplay.
RPG fantasy games and MMOS are supposed to be about progression. It’s ridiculous that every patch since the Imperial city has been just a compilation of nerfs.
Classes have steadily been having their power and uniqueness taken away due to gratuitous nerfs and in favor of generic flat percentage boosts.
I wrote about this at length here regarding the demise of Templar identity. Briefly:
It’s OK for each class to have strong abilities. They don’t need to be nerfed. I can handle other classes allegedly “OP” powers if I also have some of my own. That’s legitimately interesting gameplay. Instead now my major sorcery buff is exactly the same as my opponent and every patch note I have to read about another ability I can’t interrupt, can’t dodge, can’t reflect, no longer does X, etc. How about ZoS begin to reform ESO based on stuff I can do?
But Joy, it’s not fair that templars are the only class that can grant stamina to a group!
How on Nirn is it compelling gameplay that every single class and every single player will restore the exact same amount of a resource they have zero control over? The decision of what to restore is taken out of my hands and the amount is homogenized because it is determined based on our level. We can’t even tailor our builds to perform better in this respect. It’s totally mindless. How is this fun?
Implications for Morrowind Release
What more can I say? I suppose a lot as I often PvP and much of the compelling gameplay in Cyrodiil has also been, ehem, “Negated.” The one thing I will say is the nerf to Templar’s Repentance is absolutely terrible as it was the last remaining class-based mechanic that legitimately rewarded a well-played coordinated group of players for defeating another group and least gave them a shot when the next zerg comes to smother them. It’s a shame. Now Templars on the same team will be fighting each other over these corpses. RIP rewarding teamwork.
When the expansion is released, all those people who think it won’t be so bad to slot cost reduction glyphs and do some heavy attacks are going to be in for a rude awakening the first time City of Ash 2 comes up as an Undaunted pledge. This is not even end-game content; it’s a daily. I’m betting I’m going to see “please help, need replacement for healer who rage-quit” in my guild chats. And I’m going to pretend I didn’t see it. This doesn’t even consider the group I was with just two nights ago that wiped for 3+ hours against the Twins of Maw of Lorkhaj. Even with our alleged trivial infinite resources and maximized damage, some of the content in accessible to experienced players now.
But I will repeat what I think is the most important implication: for me, playing ESO won’t be as much fun.
Going Forward
I’m not going to quit. I already play with highly skilled players who are well over the CP cap in both PvE and PvP. Because I genuinely like them, I will continue playing as long as they do since I am in this privileged position to keep competing content and win PvP fights. But I am going to be less enthusiastic about logging in and I won’t do so nearly as much as I used to. I won’t be making any more guides (I was planning on a PvP one for newcomers) because ESO’s gameplay will no longer be fun enough to motivate me. This is the last post of any length I will make about ESO because I have said all there needs to be said.
As for what I think ZoS should do, I’m not sure there is anything that can be done. I could echo the most common compromise, that being keep the CP nerfs but revert every single class and armor nerf. But is it even realistic to suppose ZoS would just scrap months of research, testing, and plans they have for the future? Besides even if Zos did revert the class & armor nerfs, that would not address the underlying issues laid out in this post: players are still losing a significant portion of your resource management, PvE and PvP will still be butting heads because of the Champion System, Nightblades will still be uncompetitive, gameplay will not be as dynamic and fun, the gap between the “ceiling” and the “floor” will still widen. I suppose ZoS could also nerf the existing content, but that will just result in overland PvE being even easier than it is now and will not tackle the basic problem they set out to achieve: the integrity of combat has been damage because players are simply too strong in terms of resources and damage. Because so much damage is possible, the bosses in delves and the Undaunted dailies will still be burned down and such a decision by ZoS would only result in this content being relatively easier than they are. In effect, we’ll be right back at square one
ZoS Please Communicate to Us
What I would ask of ZoS is to communicate their vision of how exactly Elder Scrolls Online will be a more engaging and compelling game this time next year. This patch represents a huge change and I would like to know how in the long run the pattern of constant nerfs will end. Because I am not seeing it and I am not accepting the platitudes it throws at us on ESO Live and on these forums. I reject the premise that it’s trivial to have near infinite sustain while maximizing damage. That is only true, at least for the specs I play, with a coordinated and skilled end-game raid. I reject the contention that PvP and PvE operate under a single unified game system. I reject the notion that somehow slotting cost reduction runes in lieu of spell damage and spamming heavy attacks makes me a more “skillful” player or is a more engaging or dynamic gameplay. Most of all, I reject the philosophy that nerf after nerf after nerf after nerf with every single patch represents a positive evolution for ESO.
This is going to be an extremely hard sell for me. I know what it was like to play a Templar when the class had a distinctive soul, I know what it was like to play a magicka DK in PvP on something other than a block build, and I know what it was it was like when the Praxin fight in Spidleclutch was legitimately challenging. All these are but just memories in large part because ZoS remains committed to the Champion System, which has so much power that the developers have been forced to constantly nerf just to feed this Leviathan. I do not want to be told again that Healing Ritual is a powerful spell that only we templars have. Healing Ritual is a poor ability that is unreliable and worse still, a restoration staff can output more healing more dependably with less resources via Healing Springs. I want to know exactly how – and why – ZoS plans on remaining committed to that soul-sucking Leviathan that is a Champion System when it is the very reason we have seen the developers go away from two principles they claim to adhere to, namely the desire not to homogenize the classes and keep PvE and PvP under the same rule system.
I’ll give ZoS credit for the transition from subscription game to buy to win. I was very worried when the Crown Store was introduced that ESO would go “pay to win.” ZoS deserves major props for avoiding this pitfall and providing us with some nice cosmetic options. I know there are a lot of talented people at the company. But the direction it is taking the game is, while well-intentioned, one that is detrimental and not fun. So many of us have been saying it. This goes beyond class balance issues (although that is a huge concern). The very core of what was an engaging combat system with each class offering unique powers is dying with the totality of all these constant nerfs. The gap between the “floor” and “ceiling,” already too high, is going to widen with the Morrowind release. I wish the champion system was just jettisoned and replaced with a different post 50 progression system that added soul to our characters rather than raw power.
I wish this game to be fun to play again.
Edited by Joy_Division on May 10, 2017 11:03PM .ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »Just wanted to drop in and let folks know we are here and reading feedback. We understand the changes are pretty big, but also keep in mind this is PTS. (and only day 3...) PTS is there to do wide-scale testing and iterate on those changes.
We're watching feedback pretty closely on this and will continue to iterate on the changes in future PTS updates.
I have iterated. I have done the two things in solo PvE content that are competitive enough to test these changes on the PTS: vMA five times and soloed some world bosses. Most of my feedback is based on this. I have also been in the new Fabrication trial (having got up to the second boss) and have done a few BGs. Additionally I have considered long term trends dating back to Launch and in particular, the 1.6 patch and introduction of the Champion System.
The most important piece of feedback I have to offer is I do not find what is on the PTS fun. I fell in love with ESO because of the “fast-paced action” combat and because the characters I played had a distinctive and perceptible impact on that combat with their abilities. I do not find either to be the case on the PTS. I have “adapted” and successfully completed the content ESO has to offer. Doing so is possible and thus not my critique. Rather what’s on the PTS pales in comparison with what I purchased and what kept me logging in despite the game’s many many problems since its Launch.
A parallel for people who have been gaming since the first George Bush has been president
Spoiler
I’m going to show my age here, but anybody who has ever played the classic Dungeons and Dragons will get this reference. What ZoS is doing is nerfing you’re 11th level Magic-User that played like an actual magic-using wizard that casted interesting spells such as Cloudkill, Dimension Door, Haste, Suggestion, and even the old standby Magic Missile, into its former 3rd level self that spent that vast majority of combat throwing daggers and shooting crossbow bolts. This is the direction ZoS is going with their gameplay and I am absolutely flabbergasted how such a regression can be viewed as fun, let only compelling or interesting. It’s not about being uberpowerful ZoS. It’s about having legitimate and thought-provoking options and counterplay. Let my wizard opponent have Cloudkill (it’s a gas cloud that kills : ); if she uses it I will respond with Gust of Wind and blow it back into her face. Why is ESO going away from this principle?
The other relevant feedback I would offer is that these changes are heavily biased toward the better geared/more experienced players, i.e., the “ceiling,” which is contrary to what ZoS wishes. I will explain why based on my iterations (i.e. not theoretical).
I will begin this post with some assertions that ZoS has been floating around that I find questionable.
Infinite Resources
ZoS wrote:“Combat in ESO is, and has always been, about fast-paced action where resource management plays a large part in performing effectively. Player abilities in ESO specifically do not have cooldowns for this very reason - resource management is key and is a core pillar of the system. Due to the number of balance changes we have made over time, this core pillar of resource management has become somewhat trivial; it’s become easier than ever to have nearly infinite sustainability while still being fully maximized for damage.”
I don’t know quite what to make of this statement because on the specs that I play (mag templar, mag dragonknight, mag sorcerer), if I build for maximum damage then I quickly run out of resources. The only way I can sustain in a fight of any appreciable length is to do exactly what ZoS’s goal in this patch: incorporate resource-management in my build and playstyle. Is “infinite sustain” a Nightblade thing or maybe stamina DKs can do it in PvP? In any event, in my estimation a precision scalpel should have been used to address resource sustain issues rather than a sledgehammer.
The only time I can run a build for maximum damage and have the resources to sustain it is if I have lots of CPs and if skilled teammates are debuffing my targets and using support skills like Elemental Drain and Energy Orbs. In short, in group and raid play with players working together. Isn’t this the sort of synergistic gameplay we want? Why is this a problem? Why is ZoS nerfing all of us even in single instances such as vMA where this problem is not applicable? Even with all the supposed power we players have, I’m not convinced we are too powerful for the content. As it is we beat Sanctum Ophidia by exploiting three of the boss fights and the groups that I raid with have not even tried to do AA or Hel Ra hard mode
Spoiler
For SO, we pull Stonebreaker across the bridge so we don’t have to fight the three Overchargers. We send out a tank to pull Ozara’s adds out of the room to prevent them from spawning. For the Serpent, we have the off tank simply aggro the Laminas and Mantikora until the Pink bubble phase destroys them.
I don’t accept ZoS’s claim here. I here it uttered most often in the context of aggravations about pvP complaining, which is incredibly frustrating because PvPers have their own specialty designed campaign that they have already acknowledged addresses this issue.
PvP and PvE
ZoS wrote:“We know there’s some apprehension that we’re balancing PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously without separating the two. We are 100% committed to supporting a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently, with the goal being for players to learn how play efficiently and be able to transfer those skills to other environments.”
PvE and PvP are already separated into three games systems. There is the regular base-game (PvE). There are standard Cyrodiil campaigns (PvE plus Battlespirit). There is the non-CP Azura’s Star campaign format that will also govern upcoming Battlegrounds (PvE with Battlespirit but with no Champion System). The Rubicon has already been crossed. That ship has already sailed. The horse is already out of the barn.
Ask anyone who plays in Azura’s Star and has ever been hit with a proc set, poison drain, siege weapon, or had to deal with an opponent wearing the Troll King set if there is a “single unified game.” If CP is such a critical system for endgame progression and a crucial component of our characters, how is it possible to remove this entire system for Azura’s Star and Battlegrounds and tell us PvE and PvP work consistently? They don’t. The very fact that I need to have different builds for PvE, my Trueflame home campaign, and the upcoming Battlegrounds contradicts what I heard on last week’s ESO that there is “one cohesive game” and that it’s “not a different experience.”
This does not even go into the many fundamental and core based crucial game mechanics changes (read: nerfs) made because of our rising power due to CPs such as block cost increase and consecutive dodge roll penalty that stay in the game and carry over to Battlegrounds where there is no CP. It’s one thing to try and nerf “perma-blockers.” It’s quite another when those mechanics make it prohibitively expensive for a light armor build with a staff to take ESO’s tutorial advice and block incoming high damaging attacks.
I actually would *love* for ESO to balance PvE and PvP gameplay simultaneously. It one of the reasons I bought this game in the first place. I agree with ZoS’s intent. What’s sad is that there was a time when ESO functioned reasonably well doing such, at least to the point where many of us weren’t begging you to separate the two: it was called 1.5. The CP system is why we have three different rulesets. I think the next-step ZoS needs to take if they want a “single unified game” is self-evident.
Wardens
I could parrot the majority and joke about how they are pay to win. I know my templar got nerfed to make this class more attractive, however I don’t think the class plays strong, at least the magicka version in PvE. It’s too much about buffs and too little pew pew.
I have done vMA on my Templar thrice on the PTS with different builds each time. My scores were consistent, each in the 430,000 range, so a bit rusty but certainly doable in spite of the nerfs.
This was as far as I got with a magicka Warden before logging off in frustration: 20+ deaths and quitting on the Stage 8 boss.
Can this be chalked up to being unfamiliar with the class? Perhaps. But wait: if I, as someone who knows all the strategies and has two Flawless Conqueror achievements is struggling because of unfamiliarity, does that not indicate Morrowind’s gameplay is overly punishing to players unfamiliar with the gameplay? I know what I’m doing in vMA; the contrast between my Templar(s) and Warden is too stark.
The reoccurring issue was that a big part about Wardens are buffs and this is a problem because we only have 10 bar slots so some of that power is inaccessible and, more importantly, it is not easy to maintain those buffs in competitive situations.
In particular, the DPS was bad. All the DPS checks in the arena were too demanding because I had a hard time maximizing this class’s efficiency, have a decent rotation, it has no convenient execute, and maintain buffs all the time while trying to stay alive and with the resource pinch. My sorcerer needs only critical surge and it functions just fine. I have done vMA on my DK running no buffs!
I also don’t think some of the Warden’s skill are optimal/competitive.
Swarm It’s just a single target DoT. Reflective Light, Cripple, Burning Embers, Poison Injection, etc. all have other really useful functions.
Living Vines It’s a conditional minor heal that only lasts 10 seconds. Rapid Regeneration lasts 16 and ensures I (and another ally) are always getting healed.
Lotus Flower It’s not a bad idea, but the sorcerer’s Surge is much more flexible spell because it will proc heal on everything, plus it gives a more desirable buff (Inner light is too good not to use and potions also give crit).
The other thing I found alarming is that even though this class has a line dedicated to healing, I found myself using other skill-lines to heal/sustain myself. It looks like ZoS made a conscious decision not to have a BoL clone, which is fine, but two heals are group oriented, the HoTs are not up to the challenge vMA throws, and the teleport is not applicable. The Ice heal is only decent for high health tanks, which no vMA build is. This meant resto staff healing ward + harness magicka gave me the best results, which I am not sure speaks well for diversity, to say nothing of this class having much of a (viable) soul.
Maybe in PvP things will be different. Maybe as a healer wardens will be strong. I can’t comment on that. What I will say is that based on my experience in vMA, I think as a standalone class, it is harder to play and that difficulty is not rewarded with a greater relative power.
VMA general feedback
On both my templar and my warden, I did what ZoS wants: incorporate resource management. So I used some cost-reduction glyphs, chose Harness magicka instead of Dampen, and I slotted Elemental Drain. And I spent so much of my time spamming heavy attacks. Not fun. Not interesting. Not compelling, Not rewarding. Not anything except Google “upcoming MMOs in 2017.”
One of the things I noticed while on my Templar was that in spite of these concessions to resource management, I still was killing things faster than I did when I ran this regularly. I have never killed the Ash Titan mini-boss before the adds spawned. I did so here! I began to think one of the adjustments ZoS made in the 3rd PTS was nerfing the health of the NPCs. Nope, I checked. I’m doing more (burst) damage because of that Master-of-Arms CP star and overall “power creep”, right? Am I right in thinking that even though our sustain is going down the toilet and our (prolonged) DPS will take a hit, our short-term burst potential when we actually have resources is stronger?
This is what leads me to think Morrowind will raise the “ceiling” beyond the reach of many on the “floor.”
Too much damage is bad
I think ZoS is mistaken in believing what is harming the integrity of ESO combat is our alleged infinite sustain. Rather, the more pressing issue is that we are capable of doing so much damage. “Stack and burn” is what renders ESO’s mechanics moot, not our resource pools.
Remember way back when bosses like Praxin in Spindleclutch, Garron the Lich in Wayrest Sewers, the Spawn of Mephala in Fungal Grotto, and Keeper Imiril in Banished Cells were actually genuine challenges such that many groups used exploits just to get past them (you remember fighting the Lich in the tunnel, pulling Mephala to the bridge, LOSing Imiril so the adds wouldn’t spawn, of course you do : )? These bosses became pushovers because we now burn them down so fast their threatening mechanics don’t materialize. Our sustain has zero impact on these fights. When the Morrowind patch drops and we do our Undaunted dailies, we will still face-roll all these bosses.
But Joy, won’t players have to adapt to Morrowind by investing more into cost-reduction and thus making it such that player’s DPS wont render these mechanics moot? I will bet real money that does not happen … at least for the “ceiling.” First of all, I already did this on my templar in vMA and I was still dropping things faster than before. Secondly, why would we nerf our damage?
Think of the Fire Maw boss in COA2. That fight is a legit pain in the ass doing it any other way than “stack and burn.” There is no way in Oblivion I would even remotely entertain the thought of doing this fight trying to take down the adds as it was a nightmare to heal even when I had supposed “infinite resources” (and Breath of Life healed 3 targets, and I had major mending, and Breath of Life’s radius was circular instead of conal, and I had a legit Repentance but I digress). Has ZoS’s internal testers tried to take out the Fire Maw on the PTS? I do not believe so because if they tried, I do not think we would have never got a patch in which the only way to beat that boss is to maximize our damage and use our quick (higher) burst damage just so we can completely avoid the intended mechanics in the first place.
Spoiler
I do believe ZoS designed the new Trial with our reduced capabilities in mind as groups have already completed. But the rest of the game was released in a very different contest.
Experienced players are not going to do this any other way that “stack and burn” come next patch. I’m not even sure it’s even possible to sustain through the Fire Maw boss. I can still burst for the 20-30 seconds it will take to kill these bosses and that’s what we will continue to do.
But that’s not even the worst of it. The combination of higher damage and less sustain widens the very gap between the players at the “ceiling” and those at the “floor” that ZoS seeks to narrow.
High damage and little sustain = favors the "ceiling" because there is little margin for error
This principle shouldn’t be that difficult to comprehend. You have few resources: you must efficiently use them without making a mistake defeat your opponent because in failing, you do not have the resources to stabilize the situation, heal up, and try again. It’s akin to a single shot rifle with a silver bullet Vs. a werewolf. Don’t miss or you’re dead.
Ever wonder how players like @Alcast , @andy_s , @Gilliamtherogue , etc. can get away with investing literally nothing into resource management and yet breeze through vMA in under 40 minutes? Is because these players do not make mistakes and 100% maximize the efficiency of their tiny resource pools to destroy NPCs before they become a threat. This approach only works if you have their level of skill and experience. These are the players who succeed in such a setting; not the masses of the ESO community.
Thinking back to my PTS vMA runs, it is clear to me this was the reason I struggled so much with the Warden. While I have a Flawless, I am not as good at the content as Alcast and company. Coupled that with a few inefficiencies running the Warden (how much by unfamiliarity or how much by lack of DPS remains to be seen) and that was enough to become a watershed which took me from “Flawless Conqueror” and thinking “the PTS isn’t too bad” to logging out in frustration. I predict the “the patch is ok, we’ll just adapt” crowd will try to adapt, but find there real DPS thresholds that are out of the reach of too many. Everyone knew vMA was just one huge DPS race since it was released. Without a high DPS, you will die on stages 9, 8, 6, 5, 4, and even 1. The PTS changes puts the emphasis and bias on DPS in sharper relief.
I would encourage everyone to read @MissBizz feedback on her vMA experience. I will highlight the key points:
This is not fun. Having content taken from me (not literally), is not fun.
On live, I can beat VMA "reliably" this means I can sit down, decide to beat VMA, and do it. I will die, it won't be a speed run, but I'll do it, and maybe even have 1 or 2 of my vitality lives left.
I've now spent ~7 hours attempting to beat VMA on PTS. I tried my old faithful sets. I tried what I first beat VMA with, I tried with the sets I got better at VMA with, I tried sets that I recently just switched to and planned on beating VMA with … I just can't do it. This is not because I out-DPS the mechanics on live. … I now very reliably run out of resources, and in an attempt to get some more sustain …. Nope.
I guess I just want to point out.... I never had "infinite sustain" by any standard. … Now, suddenly, [players like me] can't do the things they could before. That sucks. … I surely don't want to be stuck in this ongoing loop of getting better, thinking I'm better, and then being smacked down to not being able to do content I could previously …
… After trying a whole bunch of sets, I've pretty much fixed the sustain issues … The problem comes here - I'm still struggling and don't know why. That's the real problem.
[Italics mine]
Reading this was hard because I always liked @MissBizz . I remember her posting youtube videos on crafting years ago, she was always an enthusiastic member of the community has done much to promote the game.
What she is posting here bears out my observations. She never had infinite sustain (neither did I). And she is struggling because her approach to vMA has never been out DPSing the content. Such an approach did not work because she no longer has the sustain to overcome all the damage from the adds she is not killing fast enough. In her adjustment to get more sustain, she’s putting out even less damage and exacerbating the core problem to begin with: she is devoting too much of her finite resources to surviving rather than killing NPCs.
To use an example, consider the Boss at the end of stage 8 (the lava with the pillars) as representative of the entire arena. Think of how easy-peasy that boss is if you go all out DPS; it is possible to kill her before a single add appears. This patch has done nothing to discourage (short) burst DPS; in fact, it is stronger. The resource-sustain route she went is a losing battle because ZoS put real bottlenecks in that approach. Let’s mull over the mechanics of how much more difficult the “sustain” approach she tried:
- You have to interrupt and kill the first flame-spinner add, which means you are taking too long and there are now two fire atronach spawns
- For the second-wave of pillar, you have to contend with the fire atronach attacks and the boss’s flare attack with its large snare.
- You will once again have to interrupt and kill the second flame-spinner add
- There is still a DPS threshold, if you take too long a two-handed wrecking blow add spawns
- If you don’t kill the boss here, you might as well jump into the lava because
- She will spawn those huge fire waves
- She will now chain pull you (which is a huge stamina drain)
- While there is another flame-spinner add
- And the fire atronachs
- By now even “sustain” builds have exhausted their resources
So I ask again, what part of the ESO community are these PTS changes catering too, the “ceiling” or the “floor”? If you are not “gud,” if you are not familiar with the mechanics, if you don’t have the requisite DPS, you are going to use a lot of soul gems.
And I’m going to flat out say this: I’m sorry but there is zero chance of me doing any of the more difficult instanced content without reassurances that the people that I am running with know what they are doing. I have spent enough nights up to 3:00 AM as it is with wipe after wipe after wipe back when we had “infinite sustain” with groups of players whose level of eagerness did not match their experience. I am a teacher and in the past I enjoyed helping folks out, but I do not find the gameplay in this patch enjoyable.
Nerfs are not fun.
There was a time I looked forward to patch notes. It was like Christmas. We’d get up early, mashing our F5 buttons eagerly anticipating reading them; remember the whole “Natch Potes” meme? Now I just dread looking at these because it’s always the same thing: what has been nerfed, what class-defining feature has been taken away, and, oh, Healing Ritual is still a poor skill. Character regression is a difficult pill to swallow in a game oriented to progress / advancement and the loss of class distinctness brings us that much closer to homogenization.
I’m getting tired of all these nerfs. Adapting is one thing when the challenge and potential solutions are legitimately interesting. Show me the section in the patch notes where resource management was something other than a big fat nerf. There’s nothing there. Nerfs have becomes ZoS’s modus operandi such that it is the primary mechanism for how they have developed the game.” Has anything tactical or mechanically stimulating been added to all the heavy attacking we are supposed to do to make it more interesting, compelling, and rewarding? I don’t mind doing them occasionally and I might be more amenable to them if there was some class-based incentive (say a DK heavy attacking a burning target would result in an explosion or something). But that’s still not the case. It’s just tedious gameplay.
RPG fantasy games and MMOS are supposed to be about progression. It’s ridiculous that every patch since the Imperial city has been just a compilation of nerfs.
Classes have steadily been having their power and uniqueness taken away due to gratuitous nerfs and in favor of generic flat percentage boosts.
I wrote about this at length here regarding the demise of Templar identity. Briefly:
In effect ZoS has been robbing Peter to pay Paul. ZoS has stripped away the tangible power from them and made it available to everyone else in the form of gear, the natural “Power Creep” that accompanies progression games, and especially the champion system. Now we are all just DPS parses with powers that can be replicated by stronger classes. Your main doesn’t hit a number or is “not an approved raid spec”? Leave or log onto your sorcerer.Joy_Division wrote: »
Zos can quantify power so it thinks as long as the classes are roughly equivalent that all is OK. Well ZoS, you can't quantify fun. I'm telling you right now that I do not enjoy that the uniqueness of my class has been torn asunder just to be replaced by the homogenized generic +X% boosts in its stead. What had once made it fun to play a Templar no longer exists.
The Templar body functions, but its soul is no longer there.
That’s the problem ZoS. It’s not that Templars are weak, or useless, or over-nerfed, or can’t compete with Wardens. Rather it is clear as day to anyone who has played and cared about a Templar since launch that the essence of what once made the class distinctive and fun is dead. The soulless husks we play now still have more than adequate power to fulfill whatever role is called on them, but there is no compelling game-play reason to use them as the direction you have taken the game has eliminated unique class functions in favor of generic power boosts available to everyone. That’s a terrible change. We are all pretty much the same. It’s boring. I don’t think ZoS ever should have allowed the Champion System to steal the power inherent in our classes. Because ZoS will never ever convince me that some +X major bonus to stamina available to everyone is as awesome, rewarding, stimulating, or fun as the Repentance skill.
I want the soul back on my templar. And it pains me ZoS cannot grant that because of the direction it took ESO.
It’s OK for each class to have strong abilities. They don’t need to be nerfed. I can handle other classes allegedly “OP” powers if I also have some of my own. That’s legitimately interesting gameplay. Instead now my major sorcery buff is exactly the same as my opponent and every patch note I have to read about another ability I can’t interrupt, can’t dodge, can’t reflect, no longer does X, etc. How about ZoS begin to reform ESO based on stuff I can do?
But Joy, it’s not fair that templars are the only class that can grant stamina to a group!
Spoiler
I believe it is best for each class and spec to have unique powers. So that’s what Templars do. And it’s even better that it cannot be quantified and broken down to a DPs chart. Because this is our domain, it is our insurance that in some future patch when it’s our turn to be on the bottom of the DPS totem pole, we will still be welcome in groups. That’s what defines Templars and makes us more than a random generic support player. If you really want ZoS to make that Nightblade healer a thing, there is a far more interesting way to go about it that eviscerating Templars: make it so Nightblades offer something unique and palpable to the table that Templars cannot. How about say, granting ultimate to a group?
How on Nirn is it compelling gameplay that every single class and every single player will restore the exact same amount of a resource they have zero control over? The decision of what to restore is taken out of my hands and the amount is homogenized because it is determined based on our level. We can’t even tailor our builds to perform better in this respect. It’s totally mindless. How is this fun?
Implications for Morrowind Release
What more can I say? I suppose a lot as I often PvP and much of the compelling gameplay in Cyrodiil has also been, ehem, “Negated.” The one thing I will say is the nerf to Templar’s Repentance is absolutely terrible as it was the last remaining class-based mechanic that legitimately rewarded a well-played coordinated group of players for defeating another group and least gave them a shot when the next zerg comes to smother them. It’s a shame. Now Templars on the same team will be fighting each other over these corpses. RIP rewarding teamwork.
When the expansion is released, all those people who think it won’t be so bad to slot cost reduction glyphs and do some heavy attacks are going to be in for a rude awakening the first time City of Ash 2 comes up as an Undaunted pledge. This is not even end-game content; it’s a daily. I’m betting I’m going to see “please help, need replacement for healer who rage-quit” in my guild chats. And I’m going to pretend I didn’t see it. This doesn’t even consider the group I was with just two nights ago that wiped for 3+ hours against the Twins of Maw of Lorkhaj. Even with our alleged trivial infinite resources and maximized damage, some of the content in accessible to experienced players now.
But I will repeat what I think is the most important implication: for me, playing ESO won’t be as much fun.
Going Forward
I’m not going to quit. I already play with highly skilled players who are well over the CP cap in both PvE and PvP. Because I genuinely like them, I will continue playing as long as they do since I am in this privileged position to keep competing content and win PvP fights. But I am going to be less enthusiastic about logging in and I won’t do so nearly as much as I used to. I won’t be making any more guides (I was planning on a PvP one for newcomers) because ESO’s gameplay will no longer be fun enough to motivate me. This is the last post of any length I will make about ESO because I have said all there needs to be said.
As for what I think ZoS should do, I’m not sure there is anything that can be done. I could echo the most common compromise, that being keep the CP nerfs but revert every single class and armor nerf. But is it even realistic to suppose ZoS would just scrap months of research, testing, and plans they have for the future? Besides even if Zos did revert the class & armor nerfs, that would not address the underlying issues laid out in this post: players are still losing a significant portion of your resource management, PvE and PvP will still be butting heads because of the Champion System, Nightblades will still be uncompetitive, gameplay will not be as dynamic and fun, the gap between the “ceiling” and the “floor” will still widen. I suppose ZoS could also nerf the existing content, but that will just result in overland PvE being even easier than it is now and will not tackle the basic problem they set out to achieve: the integrity of combat has been damage because players are simply too strong in terms of resources and damage. Because so much damage is possible, the bosses in delves and the Undaunted dailies will still be burned down and such a decision by ZoS would only result in this content being relatively easier than they are. In effect, we’ll be right back at square one
ZoS Please Communicate to Us
What I would ask of ZoS is to communicate their vision of how exactly Elder Scrolls Online will be a more engaging and compelling game this time next year. This patch represents a huge change and I would like to know how in the long run the pattern of constant nerfs will end. Because I am not seeing it and I am not accepting the platitudes it throws at us on ESO Live and on these forums. I reject the premise that it’s trivial to have near infinite sustain while maximizing damage. That is only true, at least for the specs I play, with a coordinated and skilled end-game raid. I reject the contention that PvP and PvE operate under a single unified game system. I reject the notion that somehow slotting cost reduction runes in lieu of spell damage and spamming heavy attacks makes me a more “skillful” player or is a more engaging or dynamic gameplay. Most of all, I reject the philosophy that nerf after nerf after nerf after nerf with every single patch represents a positive evolution for ESO.
This is going to be an extremely hard sell for me. I know what it was like to play a Templar when the class had a distinctive soul, I know what it was like to play a magicka DK in PvP on something other than a block build, and I know what it was it was like when the Praxin fight in Spidleclutch was legitimately challenging. All these are but just memories in large part because ZoS remains committed to the Champion System, which has so much power that the developers have been forced to constantly nerf just to feed this Leviathan. I do not want to be told again that Healing Ritual is a powerful spell that only we templars have. Healing Ritual is a poor ability that is unreliable and worse still, a restoration staff can output more healing more dependably with less resources via Healing Springs. I want to know exactly how – and why – ZoS plans on remaining committed to that soul-sucking Leviathan that is a Champion System when it is the very reason we have seen the developers go away from two principles they claim to adhere to, namely the desire not to homogenize the classes and keep PvE and PvP under the same rule system.
I’ll give ZoS credit for the transition from subscription game to buy to win. I was very worried when the Crown Store was introduced that ESO would go “pay to win.” ZoS deserves major props for avoiding this pitfall and providing us with some nice cosmetic options. I know there are a lot of talented people at the company. But the direction it is taking the game is, while well-intentioned, one that is detrimental and not fun. So many of us have been saying it. This goes beyond class balance issues (although that is a huge concern). The very core of what was an engaging combat system with each class offering unique powers is dying with the totality of all these constant nerfs. The gap between the “floor” and “ceiling,” already too high, is going to widen with the Morrowind release. I wish the champion system was just jettisoned and replaced with a different post 50 progression system that added soul to our characters rather than raw power.
I wish this game to be fun to play again.
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Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Great post Joy, i agree. the fast paced combat and uniqueness in the classes was why i loved this game. it's such shame.
it's not a matter of adaption, this patch is just not ESO, imo.Edited by Lucky28 on May 10, 2017 2:05PMInvictus11 -
Uriel_Nocturne✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That was an awesome post, OP!
I agree fully, and I feel that you really hit the nail on the head here. Well done!
twitch.tv/vampire_nox
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say no to Crown Crates!0 -
Agalloch✭✭✭✭✭Awesome post!!
100% agree to you except the CP part. The Champion System is awesome .
They only need to separate PVP and PVE and add more challenging content . Even the existing content could have a different
tier from where we can obtain some nice incentive items , like for example , transmogrification stones .
We need progression not nerfs. We want our freedom back, not to be forced to use only heavy attack builds.2 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Another great post Joy
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert I hope you guys are listening as there is some great feedback in here.6 -
ofSunhold✭✭✭✭✭Yes.Classes that don't need any class ability nerfs: Nightblades, Dragonknights, Sorcs, Templars, Wardens.1 -
Teuton67✭✭✭This patch is what I have always feared would happen to this game. I am a PvE player but always thought ESO had done PvP right in that it was a large scale fight where individual characters could not influence the fight too much. The thing I feared was that at some point, ESO would start making class balance changes around small scale PvP. Small scale PvP demands a much higher level of homogenization across the classes to be balanced and fair. Enter the 4v4v4 battlegrounds. I believe this is the direction ESO is going. It's time to start looking for the next PvE game.6
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Vyle_Byte✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Joy_Division You have an amazing way with taking how I think most of us feel and putting it into such lovely posts that aren't full of hate and sarcasm and throwing temper tantrums. I want to thank you for that. Sincerely. Over the years I have come to see you as kind of the Templar Spokesperson, because of this. Thank you Joy, thank you for writing such well thought out posts for us, on behalf of us, the community.
This post certainly hits that mark, yet again. You've stated, precisely how I see the game, the emotion that comes from seeing a game that we all have loved and spent so much of our time playing, the disappointment with its direction. The fun is literally being sucked out of this game and in turn it is pushing great people, people who have held out hope for this game for 3+ yrs, have dealt with and adapted to all changes, have invested so much time and patience, pushing them right out.
Disappointment. I used to call ESO my favorite game, a FUN game, recommend it to everyone I know. Now when I think of ESO the only word I can honestly think of is disappointment. They have drained our hope and thrown it back in our faces, patch after patch after patch. Its not just this one, its all the ones leading up to it. Its 3 yrs of watching ZOS fumble around. I have found myself logging in less and less in the past couple of months, my real reason to log on? My guildies. That's NOT what keeps a game running, ZOS. At least it shouldn't be.
I totes teared up a little when i read this:Joy_Division wrote: »But I am going to be less enthusiastic about logging in and I won’t do so nearly as much as I used to. I won’t be making any more guides (I was planning on a PvP one for newcomers) because ESO’s gameplay will no longer be fun enough to motivate me. This is the last post of any length I will make about ESO because I have said all there needs to be said.
It saddens me to know you wont be doing anymore of these posts, though whats more sad is that these posts always seem to fall on deaf ears. Joy, honestly, thank you so much for all the time you've put into writing up these posts over the years, you've done a great service for the community.Member of the Old GuardMother of the Byte FamilyVyle Byte||Ivana Byte||Vyible Byte||Hakate Vampler Former EMPRESS BWB||Haan Zolo {Retired} (He swung first)||Lunari ||Wardyn Chalyk Tahno||Dirti Dianah||Bonnie||
Viva la Byte20 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This patch is what I have always feared would happen to this game. I am a PvE player but always thought ESO had done PvP right in that it was a large scale fight where individual characters could not influence the fight too much. The thing I feared was that at some point, ESO would start making class balance changes around small scale PvP. Small scale PvP demands a much higher level of homogenization across the classes to be balanced and fair. Enter the 4v4v4 battlegrounds. I believe this is the direction ESO is going. It's time to start looking for the next PvE game.
You know; I have thought the same thing but I hadn't even thought about it being for the arenas. I just assumed they were doing their regular bulk nerf to fight the power creep.4 -
wisej12✭✭✭Completely agree. I remember the first time I killed High Kinlord Rilis in Banished Cells II ("Veteran Mode"), it took our group at least 10 tries. With each try we made realizations about the mechanics and about what each person's role needed to be in each moment. "When he does this, we need two people on this, someone else do this", etc. Now days, it's an absolute joke. It requires zero coordination, zero thinking, zero skill. We actually need to SLOW our dps to allow to Daedroths to spawn before we kill him, so we can complete the Undaunted "challenge".
This is a result of being able to stack two 5-piece sets (b/c sets have jewelry pieces now) PLUS a monster set, along with the completely game-breaking system that is Champion Points. This is not because we have too much sustain, it's because we have too much damage. We burst the boss down before his mechanics even become an issue.Edited by wisej12 on May 10, 2017 2:59PM2 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭Too much damage is bad:
We're able to deal so much damage because of the infinite sustain. Resources are supposed to be the "Cooldown" of abilities in this game. HIgh damage has a high "Cooldown" (eats resources), low damage has no "Cooldown" (sustainable). It's far too easy to get % cost reductions in live from passive things like CP/armor to make HIgh damage have no "Cooldown"
Nerfs are not fun:
As unfortunate as it is, the base game mechanics are still under development. Things are gonna be tweaked and poked for a long time coming. Recently most have been pushing back against the "power creep" that is a result of CP.
All in all MMO's and other games will entice people to initially play them. they'll get used to the current systems, they'll enjoy it. Once they reach the endgame the developers are unable to pump out enough content to keep players happy, which is a reason for grinding systems. What keeps end game players around is not the content, it's the social interactions that they form with people leading up to that (and also the grind). These groups stick around until they find something else that piques their interest, then start a slow, then sudden shift to that new thing until the process starts over again.
Nothing lasts forever. Jump ship to something else with your friends and come back in a year or two once there's a tonne of new content for you to explore.0 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Bravo, Joy, though it's beyond sad that it's come to this point in the first place.Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.SpoilerI am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS4 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agree 100% with Joy. Just to add that Alcast tested the Warden on a Test Dummy and was not able to achieve 25K DPS. Very weak class atm.
I too have been on the game less and less with each passing day coming up on the great Morrowind Expansion. I do not look forward to it at all. I've spent two years on two accounts, both with subscriptions, developing my characters and play style. I've seen my characters nerfed time and time again and now only play three of them because they are just not fun any longer. When the expansion goes live I will of course play and see how it works out. I did play on the PTS and didn't much care for the nerfs but it isn't finalized yet....so I will log in and see what happens with my toons.
As for looking for other MMO's yes, I will admit I have been doing that as well. If ESO becomes a huge slug fest of heavy attacks that is not fun in my book. ZOS, pay attention. We aren't noobs here. We are your paying subscribers and long term players with thousands of hours of game time.
2 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I wholeheartedly agree with all of this.
My main concerns, and some that you have already adressed:- Homogenization is what we are seeing in increasing amount. And the more homogenization of classes and gameplay, the less fun and interesting it becomes. Why do all classes have access to all the same boring buffs. Same, same, same.
- The CP system is pure power creep, it's uninteresting, and it is a large fiasko. At this point the CP system needs to be scrapped altogether, and replaced with something that gives us more diversion, branching and alternatives - not something that merely gives us more numbers.
- Soft Caps on stacking of damage and ressources would fix 90 % of the problems with stack and burning through everything.
Edited by Carbonised on May 10, 2017 3:45PM2 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I was "OK" with the changes until I ported into Maelstrom on PTS.
Ohhhhh boy.
For my stamina nightblade, Maelstrom is a fast-paced, thrilling, dodge-rolling blast on Live. I do not have infinite sustain, because I play Khajiit. Most of my deaths, on Live, are the result of running out of stamina (or lag spikes). I have to judiciously mix heavy attacks to sustain. I have to limit dodge-rolls. I have to Vigor at the right time. It's fun. It's fast. It's well-balanced and exciting.
On PTS, it sucks. I don't know how else to put it. It's just awful. I walk around slowly while charging heavy attacks, afraid of dodge-rolling or using abilities because I won't have enough stamina to use the (nerfed, increased cost) Vigor (and of course the "heal" from the now-crippled Leeching Strikes does nothing useful for players above level 10).
That really bums me out, because my gameplay in ESO is basically: raid on weeknights, Maelstrom on the weekends. Take Maelstrom away and I won't be playing ESO on the weekends. And that makes me sad. I love this game but I don't love the version of Morrowind I've played.
I spend the majority of my time running with a pretty good guild. We're not the best out there, and we never managed to finish vMoL in the short window of time that it was actually playable on our platform (brief aside: if I were a ZOS developer, I would be incredibly ashamed of the state of end-game content on console). We got The Twins down to 7% health the night before Homestead dropped and broke that raid (which was nearly 3 months ago, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert. That's 3 months now we've been locked out of MoL. Thanks for that). But we do alright. 130k on vSO HM at the end of a week of progression. vAA speed runs. vHRC speed runs with 100k+ scores with no hard mode.
We've spent 6+ hours the last 2 nights progressing on vAA HM. Hundreds of wipes. It's hard. We've got plenty of people who pull 40k+ in self-buffed parses. Plenty of people who've been raiding every night of the week for months and months and months. Great tanks and healers, all the right sets and synergies, using good strategies ... and it's still hard. We had The Mage down around 40% on our best run last night. The difficulty of raid content, IMO, was fine.
I just don't get it, and they haven't explained it, and I don't think they will.
This patch is just a bunch of nerfs that almost nobody wanted and I'm just sitting here waiting to finally be able to play Maw of Lorkhaj a year after it was released.14 -
Dantaria✭✭✭✭✭Thank you for this post, OP. Biggest, heartfelt gratitude to you.
I've tried to say the same things, but you're much more eloquent and much more systematic than I am. I couldn't say as well myself, so thank you again.
I will repeat my purely PvE perspective.
"Infinite sustain" was never an issue. There never was one! Low-CP players have struggled and good - not infinite, good - sustain was achieved by team-work: by experienced, skillful, hard-earned organisation. How, how was that a problem? Isn't hard-work supposed to be rewarded?
Morrowind changes do not help the "floor". The "elite" - people with awesome understanding of the game and all possible gear - will adapt relatively easily. We, "upper casuals", those who have a strong base, will adapt also - if we would have a desire to bother with new "fun and interactive" gameplay. Total casuals, those, who only quest and fish... for them the game is probably unchangeable, almost nothing can possibly affect them.
Anyone in between? Players, who just got enough CP to try something harder? Casuals who want to get better? Anyone who want to try to progress? These changes are going to destroy them.
First dungeon is going to be wrecking surprise for newbies and lowbies.
And when it comes to fun... HAs in their current state only ruin it. There is no reward, no interesting mechanics, nothing. Only pressing Left Mouse Button. Over and over and over again. You can't have this and "fast-paced interactive combat" in one sentence. You. Just. Can't.
Time is running out, Morrowind is going to hit soon and I... I just... You know. At this point I abandoned hope that things will get better with all these. I only have one thing to ask for.
ZoS, talk to us. Explain, please, at least partly explain your reasoning. You don't want to give us details? Fine, totally fine, fair enough. But if you have a long-term plan, if all this is only the beginning of something, a part of a much bigger picture... Please, tell us about some main points of it. Elaborate on some main directions, hint where you're going with all this. Please, give us something to hope and wait for.
As things are and with lack of communication... the future seems very, very bleak
English isn't my native, apologies for any mistakes.9 -
Dreyloch✭✭✭✭✭Great Post Joy!
I read the entire thing, even the spoiler points! I'll admit that I have never finished vMA. I really just don't see a point to it. More RNG at the end of a hellacious battle with NPC's only to get stuff that you can't use or has the wrong trait. But you already know my focus is PvP anyway.
I'll agree the sustain vs. damage issue in CP type PvP really didn't need this crushing sledgehammer of nerfs for the entire populous. I think one of the devs was out in TF Cyro secretly, and got their backside handed to them one too many times. So Voila! Nerfs for all! (Dare I say it was probably an mSorc too, since they saw the least) Tinfoil theories of course, but not... that...far from believable lol.
Mr. Lambert is very much mistaken if he thinks this game can ever be the same for both styles of play. It just isn't possible and I'm sure you agree. There are too many variables in gear, CP's, and player expertise. For example, many players use divines in PVE content.They may even use precise or infused traits on weapons. While this might work in PvP, it's certainly not ideal. The same is said for PvP'ers. They mostly use impen. armor with sharpened weapons to both survive and deal sufficient damage. But it's horrible for trial content. We (the players) all know this. Would appear that Mr. Lambert does not. The only way to make all gear traits to work in either content, would be to severely dumb down PvE. No one wants this. They would have to base content off players wearing full sets of simple rubidite/ ancient silk/or ruby leather gear with no sets or monster helms. Just to make it viable for "everyone" to do both styles of play with w/e gear they choose to put on.
I was just looking at an upcoming title that will actually have a separate server for open world PvP vs. it's other PvE servers. They explained this was to be able to make changes and assure better balance for each style of play with regards to classes and not nerfing "one" that effects both.
I've written my piece on CP's. I've written many times about ways to combat one change for PvP or PvE effecting both. It's all fallen on deaf ears, and seems this trend continues."The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"2 -
Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭Amazingly written.
Well said sir, unfortunately it's too late I fear at this point. Wrobel and his wrecking ball team have already made me give up on any hope this patch. I cancelled my 3 year subscription (up till now) and morrowinds quests will likely be my last.
Nerfing everyone and everything into the ground is not fun, is not how you balance a game, and has gone pure elitist mode. Have fun guys, this games just not ESO anymoreEdited by Nelson_Rebel on May 10, 2017 4:33PM4 -
Tholian1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Definitely waiting to buy Morrowind until I have had the chance to try out the changes on console. Not going to risk wasting money on a game that may no longer be any fun.PS4 Pro NA4 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭They add layer upon layer of completely overtuned gear to the game with most of the 2016 updates to turn this game into a gear farm, then blame the power creep on the extra 99 CP (33 per category) we got since the CP cap was introduced so they have an excuse to blanket nerf everyone into the ground.
It's mostly sad.4 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BEST POST EVER MADE
on this forum by Joy_Division.
ZOS, please hire this man.
He truly understands the game and the players.
Morrowind could become ESO's TITANIC PATCH.
Please reverse thrust now before it is too late.
Please do as Joy_Division said:
Keep the CP nerfs but revert every single class and armor nerf.
Please keep the soul and fun in the game.
Nerf the CP recource bonuses (or dump CPs completely).
Nerf the CP damage bonuses (or dump CPs completely).
But please do not nerf the classes and armor bonuses.
Edited by BalticBlues on May 10, 2017 5:05PM8 -
SilentRaven1972✭✭✭✭The launch of The Elder Scrolls Online: Morrowind is just a few weeks away, and today, we're happy to announce that PC and Mac players who purchase the Digital Upgrade version of ESO: Morrowind will have the option to begin their adventures in Vvardenfell a little early on Monday, May 22! This means you'll be able to play the full game on the live megaservers beginning on May 22 and will retain all progression when the game officially launches in June.
Someone just copy/pasted this to me. Looks like hope for changes may be gone."Such is the nature of evil. Out there in the vast ignorance of the world, it festers and spreads. A shadow that grows in the dark. A sleepless malice as black as the oncoming wall of night. So it ever was, so will it always be. In time all foul things come forth." -Thranduil4 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For me it feels like eso was originally developed by an entirely different team (atleast for classes, abilities and combat design, maybe also programmers - i mean why on earth did they start meddling with perfectly fine working gapclosers) that got kicked out some months after release.
After that we got the current crew that did not have the understanding of the original class design and the vision of the combat system and now try to shape the game in a way that they can handle and understand it.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 509 -
HugeMuffin✭✭✭✭For me it feels like eso was originally developed by an entirely different team (atleast for classes, abilities and combat design, maybe also programmers - i mean why on earth did they start meddling with perfectly fine working gapclosers) that got kicked out some months after release.
After that we got the current crew that did not have the understanding of the original class design and the vision of the combat system and now try to shape the game in a way that they can handle and understand it.
Nobody came out and said why these changes were being made, they hinted at "sustain" and "Power creep", but were too afraid to come out and say "We made these changes for a new pay-for-access game mode". All these changes only make sense when you take small team arena fighting into account. Sustain nerfs? Prevents regen matches where both sides just heal and wail on each other. Healing/Mending Nerfs? Prevents a tankplar or unkillable DK build from grabbing the flag and just sitting with it. Stealth damage Nerfs? Prevents 1 shot wipes where a team of 4x gankblades wipe the arena before it gets started. Reliance on heavy attacks? Makes newbies feel more "epic" when you're waddling around, swinging great swords at each other. Set nerfs? Again, look to the previous tweaks. No more unkillable builds, no more one shot wipes, quick battles in the new pay-for-access game mode.
Negative impact on Cyro and PvE was secondary. They'll probably correct for those when morrowind stops selling well.8 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I usually skim through long posts like these, but this one held my attention and I read every word.
Substitute Templar with Nightblade (and the class defining Templar skills that have been destroyed with Nightblade skills) and I could sign my name to the exact same post.
As it is I have been messing around with a heavy attack sustain oriented build just to see how I feel about it, and Joy is spot on... It not fun, and I am probably going to spec for damage and just try to burn bosses before I run out of resources.
Also, I do remember all those "cheese" strategies you mentioned... Ah the nostalgia... You forgot the one where we used spear shards to cleanse Molag Kena's lightning walls.
The general sentiment that ESO is going to be ruined and what other MMOs are out there is very strong in all of my guilds as well, even the social one.
I can't figure out if it is arrogance or a vision of ESO I just don't understand, but if ZoS doesn't do something to head off the negative feelings going around the perceived feeling that the game is going down the drain will become reality regardless of whether it is deserved or not.Playing since beta...4 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The unique class part has A LOT to do with QQ.
Look at every nerf shield s post. Look at the Necro post. It's FULL of, "If I can't have this, you shouldn't have it either!"
"How come Sorcerers get dark deal? How come Templars have access to major Mending?!"
The lesser experienced players hate unique, they want their toon to be able to do anything any other toon can.
5 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This post will most likely fall on deaf ears, as all other great quality posts in the pts forum. I don't even have the words to describe what I think of these devs right now. You'd think that any sensible company would listen to the community that feeds it money. But it doesn't matter anymore. This will not change. Ever. Just wait and see until the masses get their hands on these changes. When Morrowind launches, ZOS will witness the birth of a outrage the size they haven't ever seen before. Just you watch.Edited by Koensol on May 10, 2017 5:44PM3 -
reiverx✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »It’s ridiculous that every patch since the Imperial city has been just a compilation of nerfs.
I think this simple sentence sums it up perfectly.
4 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This system change does reward more skilled players over the base players . It is way more challenging and maybe too challenging for some people that don't have the time to learn perfect rotation . The combat is a lot more clunky and that is something that goes directly against Nicks original no cool downs design . He was really proud of that and I remember watching his developer videos thinking this Dev gets it . He knows how to keep combat exciting . So increased skill demand with less enjoyable mechanics will produce a more frustrating combat system .
Everything you wrote Joy is on target with most of our PTS concerns . You even nailed the progression of the game in a way I related too . Not all of Us were able to make infinite sustaine builds . In what seemed a rushed approach , the Devs did sledge down the Classes and CP all at once to address the problem .
I'll survive this and so will you . Maybe even excel further then others . I don't know about you but I've already located several ways to work around walls others are running into but it is tedious and I know a bunch of my friends will never want to regrind gear over and over for each class . They may pull back from end game worries and just make due with mediocrity builds . Who can blame them ?
I hope Rich reads this , it's very accurate and well written . I'm glad we have dedicated players like you looking out for the general interest of everyone , not just the elite . The game is so much more fun when we all can be more competitive .12 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Thank you.
I'm not sure ZOS realizes just how high the level of disillusionment with this patch is. This is ZOS's Windows 8--a hubris-laden attempt to drag their customers kicking and screaming in a direction that their customers don't want. We all know how well things worked for Microsoft...Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:SpoilerPersonal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
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- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
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- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
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- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Collectibles Tracker ― RaidificatorOther Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information13