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Dark Deal/Changes
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »Wow the sorc hate is real... Dark exchange takes alot of time to cast, if you're losing to someone who is able to cast these frequently you should be checking something on your end, not the sorc's.
The magicka version is extremely punishing on your stamina pool, and the stamina version takes alot of resources from your utility skills. Nothing but high risk / high reward.
Not even gonna comment about this skill on a PVE setting.
What are you smoking? This skill is great in PvP and PvE....totally unbalanced to give a class this ability for so long nerf everyone's sustain but not touch dark conversion.
People will be able to run 800 Stam recovery in heavy armor next patch due to this one skill and still stack wep damage
So can any build, just wait till it goes live, then we can post our secrets0 -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's a cast time ability that's interruptible not only by bash but by any interrupt including venom arrow for stam users and crushing shock for mag users. There is counterplay available. Also the cast time gets extended by 0.2 seconds in the future I believe.
Counter play?... you gotta be joking. So i interrupt a dark delaing sorc, the sorc cc breaks and continues to spam dark deal to heal and get resources.... that counter play though.
You know whats real counter play?... if dark deal is interrupted, resources required to cast are still used. Now thats counter play.PS4 NA DC1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »wimhwimladimf wrote: »If Sorc is spamming DD he's not casting offensive skills, so just focus fire him. Even if you cant kill Sorc by yourself, as long as you can deal decent dmg, sorc will be forced to spam DD and wont be able to kill you either.
No smart sorc is spamming DD. They use it after combat.
How is that relevant to sorc sustain being OP?
Simply, if they need res back, thyey just kite. The thing is that the res back is on demand. On the other hand, NBs must
1- cast siph
2- make sure they are using basic attacks
3- make sure they don't die before siph efects gives them the greater res recover
While sorcs have no conditions to use a skills to get res back, NBs must accomplish with a set of rules. So, the problem is, what if I don't want to use basic attacks?
If they spam it or not is ot an issue. I doubt they'll do it. Maybe the first week there will be sorcs spamming, but after that they will adapt to weaving the skill when needed.
I'm OK with Siph if there's no condition related to the basic attacks. But people is cmparing it to rally, where it has nothing to do with rally (rally is a HoT, without condition)Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@IzakiBrotherSs
There's another thing that's gonna be a big issue: Argonian sorc running tripots and dark conversion... maybe pot enchantSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@IzakiBrotherSs
There's another thing that's gonna be a big issue: Argonian sorc running tripots and dark conversion... maybe pot enchant
Pot enchantments are broken and only reduce your cd by 1 sec each.
Before the Patch I had an argonian dk build that had to sustain for 15 seconds and would have all 3 resources filled again. With the changes to battleroar that's a lot harder but I think I can still use it for fun0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@IzakiBrotherSs
There's another thing that's gonna be a big issue: Argonian sorc running tripots and dark conversion... maybe pot enchant
Pot enchantments are broken and only reduce your cd by 1 sec each.
Before the Patch I had an argonian dk build that had to sustain for 15 seconds and would have all 3 resources filled again. With the changes to battleroar that's a lot harder but I think I can still use it for fun
I've never tried pot enchants since 1.3, anyway, the other pot enchant that increases duration could be useful too.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yeh, it is pretty broken.
This is from someone who has played a stamsroc since IC. When it got buffed I couldn't believe how ridiculous it was. So easy to kite around a rock and get ibsnae Stam back.
Even if someone does interrupt, I keep the magica. That needs to go for a start.2 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭wimhwimladimf wrote: »If Sorc is spamming DD he's not casting offensive skills, so just focus fire him. Even if you cant kill Sorc by yourself, as long as you can deal decent dmg, sorc will be forced to spam DD and wont be able to kill you either.
No smart sorc is spamming DD. They use it after combat.
You're so wrong. There are many options too utilize this skill during combat. Getting pressured with cc cooldown almost up? Stun and dark deal. Got distance and need resources? Dd. Got a tree? Dd. I'm a group where you can buy 1 second of space? Dd. Dodge rolling up and into a breach? Dark deal.
It's over powered in the upcoming patch.1 -
HiImRex✭✭✭✭✭I was going to make a comment explaining why dark deal outperforms other sustain abilities in live and why it will overperform even more after Morrowind
BUT I just maxed out my orc stam sorc and now that I have my own stam sorc, I've realized a few things.
LOL noobs dark deal is fine it's got a MASSIVE cast time you can EASILY interrupt it esp when I combo it with my UNCONTESTED MOBILITY (constant minor exp up time, same major exp up time as any other stam class, streak) to LOS or get space
LOS into a dark deal? GET OUTPLAYED
Simply outdistance your melee range and get in 1-2 darkdeal before your gap closer animation even finishes? GET OUTPLAYED
STREAK stun into a free dark deal? GET OUTPLAYED
Spam shield wall every 8 seconds and get guaranteed dark deals? GET OUTPLAYED
My burst > your burst b/c Dark Deal, my sustain > your sustain b/c Dark Deal, we trade damage and then I trade your vigor for my DD and you lose automatically? GET OUTPLAYED
in sum, just make a stam sorc and you'll see dark deal is balanced
also highly recommend you make a mag sorc and you'll see that mag sorcs are balanced with a hugely high skill ceiling perfectly balanced risk/reward and is extremely punishing.
4 -
Kilandros✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sorc Zerg incInvictus
Kilandros - Dragonknight / Grand Overlord
Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
Sias - Sorcerer / PrefectZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT0 -
West93✭✭✭✭✭Sorc has a lot of mobility to move away and use a dark deal and if it is interrupted, the caster is not punished by it, it can do it again, don't talk nonsense about being outplayed if you have plenty of free opportunities to do it, the reason you can outburst because you can stack full into damage, because of the dark deal, without it you wouldn't sustain for ***.
Especially next patch, this will be too strong.2 -
Apherius✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭yeah , and after this ,nerf the bonus that give 4.4K magicka back when we kill an ennemi with an Endless fury , up the cost of shields for prevent them to spam shields , and nerf crystal again ! i want to play with crystal blast , oh and don't forgot the passif wich reduces cost of ultimates ! make Stamsorc tank in PVE Even worse than they already are !
I did not come here to suffer, OK ? ( only few french can understand this expression )
Edited by Apherius on May 2, 2017 6:53PM0 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The only thing funnier than calls for nerfs (which I don't think anyone has done here regarding Dark Deal) are the players fiercely protecting their babies.
I think most people are saying that interrupting a skill, really any skill, should incur a penalty of some sort on the person being interrupted. Dark Deal is just the focus because it's an incredibly powerful source of resources at a time when resources for all other classes are taking one to the head.1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »wimhwimladimf wrote: »If Sorc is spamming DD he's not casting offensive skills, so just focus fire him. Even if you cant kill Sorc by yourself, as long as you can deal decent dmg, sorc will be forced to spam DD and wont be able to kill you either.
No smart sorc is spamming DD. They use it after combat.
You're so wrong. There are many options too utilize this skill during combat. Getting pressured with cc cooldown almost up? Stun and dark deal. Got distance and need resources? Dd. Got a tree? Dd. I'm a group where you can buy 1 second of space? Dd. Dodge rolling up and into a breach? Dark deal.
It's over powered in the upcoming patch.
Stun-> LoS-> Kite = No Combat.
Combat is when you dirink a pot while weaving, for example. No one spamm DD during combat, they open a gap to avid dmg to use the skill.
Now read what the guy above said "put pressure on a sorc,so he can spam DD", which is a blatant lie. He could even dodge roll and use vigor to get a HoT. But dodge rolling takes the sorc out of combatSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Yes... Keep focusing on Sorcs... Nothing to see anywhere else
every class is getting nerfs. accept sorcerer class
the sorcerer = [no nerfs]
it is unfair to eso and the entire community.
we need point out this fact, if we don't bring sorcerer inline with the other classes then we will have serious problems in eso future.
Edited by Gilvoth on May 2, 2017 7:02PM0 -
Starless06✭✭It's a cast time ability that's interruptible not only by bash but by any interrupt including venom arrow for stam users and crushing shock for mag users. There is counterplay available. Also the cast time gets extended by 0.2 seconds in the future I believe.
So any class must run crushing shock or venom arrow to prevent a sorc to use a OP heal and res return? What about sorcs that broke CC?
The entire argument of DD being interruptable is stupid. No one is going to use weaker morphs to counter one skill. At least Magelight, which is a counter to NB, gives you something extra in the form of a major buff, and protection against ganking/extra magicka. The skills you are suggesting have NOTHING extra, just help sorc to get CC inmunity...
Not one uses crushing shock in pvp? What?
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Starless06 wrote: »It's a cast time ability that's interruptible not only by bash but by any interrupt including venom arrow for stam users and crushing shock for mag users. There is counterplay available. Also the cast time gets extended by 0.2 seconds in the future I believe.
So any class must run crushing shock or venom arrow to prevent a sorc to use a OP heal and res return? What about sorcs that broke CC?
The entire argument of DD being interruptable is stupid. No one is going to use weaker morphs to counter one skill. At least Magelight, which is a counter to NB, gives you something extra in the form of a major buff, and protection against ganking/extra magicka. The skills you are suggesting have NOTHING extra, just help sorc to get CC inmunity...
Not one uses crushing shock in pvp? What?
Just zergs. No smart player is gona give a chance to cc immunity in a lame skill.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »wimhwimladimf wrote: »If Sorc is spamming DD he's not casting offensive skills, so just focus fire him. Even if you cant kill Sorc by yourself, as long as you can deal decent dmg, sorc will be forced to spam DD and wont be able to kill you either.
No smart sorc is spamming DD. They use it after combat.
You're so wrong. There are many options too utilize this skill during combat. Getting pressured with cc cooldown almost up? Stun and dark deal. Got distance and need resources? Dd. Got a tree? Dd. I'm a group where you can buy 1 second of space? Dd. Dodge rolling up and into a breach? Dark deal.
It's over powered in the upcoming patch.
Stun-> LoS-> Kite = No Combat.
Combat is when you dirink a pot while weaving, for example. No one spamm DD during combat, they open a gap to avid dmg to use the skill.
Now read what the guy above said "put pressure on a sorc,so he can spam DD", which is a blatant lie. He could even dodge roll and use vigor to get a HoT. But dodge rolling takes the sorc out of combat
You're opinion of out of combat is a lot different than mine. Line of sight, stunning, dodge rolling does not mean out of combat. By no combat do you mean they aren't doing damage? Being in combat doesn't just mean dealing damage, it means forcing your opponent to make decisions or taking them based on your opponent.
Are there counters? Sure. Is it too strong for the upcoming changes to cp and sustain? Absolutely. Live it's not as much of an issue bc everyone has options too help with sustain.2 -
alexkdd99✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sandman929 wrote: »The only thing funnier than calls for nerfs (which I don't think anyone has done here regarding Dark Deal) are the players fiercely protecting their babies.
I think most people are saying that interrupting a skill, really any skill, should incur a penalty of some sort on the person being interrupted. Dark Deal is just the focus because it's an incredibly powerful source of resources at a time when resources for all other classes are taking one to the head.
What in the world, are you not reading any of the post? You don't think people are calling for a nerf? LOL.0 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »The only thing funnier than calls for nerfs (which I don't think anyone has done here regarding Dark Deal) are the players fiercely protecting their babies.
I think most people are saying that interrupting a skill, really any skill, should incur a penalty of some sort on the person being interrupted. Dark Deal is just the focus because it's an incredibly powerful source of resources at a time when resources for all other classes are taking one to the head.
What in the world, are you not reading any of the post? You don't think people are calling for a nerf? LOL.
As convincing as your "LOL" is, no I don't. I don't think the resource return needs a value reduction, I think the counterplay (interrupt) needs to incur a penalty.0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Too bad sorcs have №1 mobility in game and interrupted dark deal refunds magicka, so your arguments are cheap excuses.It's a cast time ability that's interruptible not only by bash but by any interrupt including venom arrow for stam users and crushing shock for mag users. There is counterplay available. Also the cast time gets extended by 0.2 seconds in the future I believe.1 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »The only thing funnier than calls for nerfs (which I don't think anyone has done here regarding Dark Deal) are the players fiercely protecting their babies.
I think most people are saying that interrupting a skill, really any skill, should incur a penalty of some sort on the person being interrupted. Dark Deal is just the focus because it's an incredibly powerful source of resources at a time when resources for all other classes are taking one to the head.
What in the world, are you not reading any of the post? You don't think people are calling for a nerf? LOL.
As convincing as your "LOL" is, no I don't. I don't think the resource return needs a value reduction, I think the counterplay (interrupt) needs to incur a penalty.
they absolutely Need a reduction. it is insane how op dark deal is on pts, siphoning attacks has to be active for 20 sec to refund like 3k stam with the last tick while i get 5k with stam sorc in 1 sec ontop of an 8k heal1 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »The only thing funnier than calls for nerfs (which I don't think anyone has done here regarding Dark Deal) are the players fiercely protecting their babies.
I think most people are saying that interrupting a skill, really any skill, should incur a penalty of some sort on the person being interrupted. Dark Deal is just the focus because it's an incredibly powerful source of resources at a time when resources for all other classes are taking one to the head.
What in the world, are you not reading any of the post? You don't think people are calling for a nerf? LOL.
As convincing as your "LOL" is, no I don't. I don't think the resource return needs a value reduction, I think the counterplay (interrupt) needs to incur a penalty.
they absolutely Need a reduction. it is insane how op dark deal is on pts, siphoning attacks has to be active for 20 sec to refund like 3k stam with the last tick while i get 5k with stam sorc in 1 sec ontop of an 8k heal
Since it's a channel, I don't think a reduction is needed. Other class based skills with similar functions should probably be improved. So we might disagree there. But rather than calling for another nerf, something Dark Deal specific, I'd rather see skillful counterplay, interruptions for all skills that can be interrupted, be rewarded and the cost of the interrupted skill be charged to the caster.0 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Once again, "buff others" - it's not working, even ZoS get it and started to actually balancing stuff.Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »The only thing funnier than calls for nerfs (which I don't think anyone has done here regarding Dark Deal) are the players fiercely protecting their babies.
I think most people are saying that interrupting a skill, really any skill, should incur a penalty of some sort on the person being interrupted. Dark Deal is just the focus because it's an incredibly powerful source of resources at a time when resources for all other classes are taking one to the head.
What in the world, are you not reading any of the post? You don't think people are calling for a nerf? LOL.
As convincing as your "LOL" is, no I don't. I don't think the resource return needs a value reduction, I think the counterplay (interrupt) needs to incur a penalty.
they absolutely Need a reduction. it is insane how op dark deal is on pts, siphoning attacks has to be active for 20 sec to refund like 3k stam with the last tick while i get 5k with stam sorc in 1 sec ontop of an 8k heal
Since it's a channel, I don't think a reduction is needed. Other class based skills with similar functions should probably be improved. So we might disagree there. But rather than calling for another nerf, something Dark Deal specific, I'd rather see skillful counterplay, interruptions for all skills that can be interrupted, be rewarded and the cost of the interrupted skill be charged to the caster.Edited by Sugaroverdose on May 2, 2017 7:42PM0 -
BohnT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »Sandman929 wrote: »The only thing funnier than calls for nerfs (which I don't think anyone has done here regarding Dark Deal) are the players fiercely protecting their babies.
I think most people are saying that interrupting a skill, really any skill, should incur a penalty of some sort on the person being interrupted. Dark Deal is just the focus because it's an incredibly powerful source of resources at a time when resources for all other classes are taking one to the head.
What in the world, are you not reading any of the post? You don't think people are calling for a nerf? LOL.
As convincing as your "LOL" is, no I don't. I don't think the resource return needs a value reduction, I think the counterplay (interrupt) needs to incur a penalty.
they absolutely Need a reduction. it is insane how op dark deal is on pts, siphoning attacks has to be active for 20 sec to refund like 3k stam with the last tick while i get 5k with stam sorc in 1 sec ontop of an 8k heal
Since it's a channel, I don't think a reduction is needed. Other class based skills with similar functions should probably be improved. So we might disagree there. But rather than calling for another nerf, something Dark Deal specific, I'd rather see skillful counterplay, interruptions for all skills that can be interrupted, be rewarded and the cost of the interrupted skill be charged to the caster.
The channel means nothing, it is way more punishing for you to bash a sorc than it is for him to be interrupted even when the skill cost is taken from him.
With LoS you can use dark deal as often as you want and no one will be able to bash you. you have to go defensly for 2 sec max to have enough resources to start pressure for another 30 sec while any other class can't do that.
they just nerf the other skills so they won't improve them again and even if they did so DD would still be one of the best abilitis in this game.
Reduce the cast time by .5 sec and lower the resource gain to 25%. this is literally the same thing that was applied on the other classes this patch and there shouldn't be a free pass for sorcs which grants them more resources than any other class in under 2 seconds
0 -
wisej12✭✭✭I think they just need to increase the cast time by 0.5 seconds. People shouldn't be able to use it while simultaneously fighting. They should need to take cover or do it while the enemy is stunned or occupied with something else. It's too powerful for how difficult it is to counterplay (unless you're spamming crushing shock or venom arrow, in which case it gets countered too hard)Edited by wisej12 on May 2, 2017 8:19PM1
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »wimhwimladimf wrote: »If Sorc is spamming DD he's not casting offensive skills, so just focus fire him. Even if you cant kill Sorc by yourself, as long as you can deal decent dmg, sorc will be forced to spam DD and wont be able to kill you either.
No smart sorc is spamming DD. They use it after combat.
You're so wrong. There are many options too utilize this skill during combat. Getting pressured with cc cooldown almost up? Stun and dark deal. Got distance and need resources? Dd. Got a tree? Dd. I'm a group where you can buy 1 second of space? Dd. Dodge rolling up and into a breach? Dark deal.
It's over powered in the upcoming patch.
Stun-> LoS-> Kite = No Combat.
Combat is when you dirink a pot while weaving, for example. No one spamm DD during combat, they open a gap to avid dmg to use the skill.
Now read what the guy above said "put pressure on a sorc,so he can spam DD", which is a blatant lie. He could even dodge roll and use vigor to get a HoT. But dodge rolling takes the sorc out of combat
You're opinion of out of combat is a lot different than mine. Line of sight, stunning, dodge rolling does not mean out of combat. By no combat do you mean they aren't doing damage? Being in combat doesn't just mean dealing damage, it means forcing your opponent to make decisions or taking them based on your opponent.
Are there counters? Sure. Is it too strong for the upcoming changes to cp and sustain? Absolutely. Live it's not as much of an issue bc everyone has options too help with sustain.
IMHO it's like boxing, when they engage in combat. Yes, as a boxer you have to take decisions, but if you are running out of "stamina", then what you do? Clinch. Then the referee stops combat.
LOS, or CC, or any other tactic used in PvP has the same effect than the clinch, but without a referee. So if a sorc is smart is going for that window that aloow him to recover res, not during the combat itself...Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »wimhwimladimf wrote: »If Sorc is spamming DD he's not casting offensive skills, so just focus fire him. Even if you cant kill Sorc by yourself, as long as you can deal decent dmg, sorc will be forced to spam DD and wont be able to kill you either.
No smart sorc is spamming DD. They use it after combat.
You're so wrong. There are many options too utilize this skill during combat. Getting pressured with cc cooldown almost up? Stun and dark deal. Got distance and need resources? Dd. Got a tree? Dd. I'm a group where you can buy 1 second of space? Dd. Dodge rolling up and into a breach? Dark deal.
It's over powered in the upcoming patch.
Stun-> LoS-> Kite = No Combat.
Combat is when you dirink a pot while weaving, for example. No one spamm DD during combat, they open a gap to avid dmg to use the skill.
Now read what the guy above said "put pressure on a sorc,so he can spam DD", which is a blatant lie. He could even dodge roll and use vigor to get a HoT. But dodge rolling takes the sorc out of combat
You're opinion of out of combat is a lot different than mine. Line of sight, stunning, dodge rolling does not mean out of combat. By no combat do you mean they aren't doing damage? Being in combat doesn't just mean dealing damage, it means forcing your opponent to make decisions or taking them based on your opponent.
Are there counters? Sure. Is it too strong for the upcoming changes to cp and sustain? Absolutely. Live it's not as much of an issue bc everyone has options too help with sustain.
IMHO it's like boxing, when they engage in combat. Yes, as a boxer you have to take decisions, but if you are running out of "stamina", then what you do? Clinch. Then the referee stops combat.
LOS, or CC, or any other tactic used in PvP has the same effect than the clinch, but without a referee. So if a sorc is smart is going for that window that aloow him to recover res, not during the combat itself...
That's not a good comparison imo. Comparing a boxing match and eso combat is like comparing apples and oranges. But I'll try for fun.
LOS is like running around the ring away from the opponent, which even referees say cut that bs out bc it's lame. That's why i don't chase tree huggers.
That was kinda fun lol. Still a bad comparison though. I have 2 Stam sorcs, 1 pve and 1 PvP. Dark deal is going to be broken as hell in morrowind. It's strong now but not on since everyone has those counterparts.0