Magic Nightblade Megathread

arkansas_ESO

This thread is meant to serve as a discussion about magic Nightblade and the problems the class currently faces. I'll speak mainly from a PVP perspective as that's where most of my playtime is spent, but I encourage those that are knowledgeable about PVE to share their feedback as well.

NDA Disclaimer: I'll be mentioning the Warden class throughout this post, but I'll only be referencing information that has already been made publicly available by ZOS here: http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2017/04/13/warden-guide-skill-lines-and-abilities

Issues facing magic NB:

• Class skills suggest NB should remain mobile (lack of Major/Minor Mending bonuses, lack of "house-building" area-of-denial tools like Templar or DK) but lacks mobility
• Clunky skills
• Cloak is feast or famine: either it works really well or it doesn't work at all
• Lack of damage-after-time abilities
• NB's reliance on projectiles
• Incoming changes: Siphoning Attacks, Shadow Barrier

1. Class skills suggest NB should remain mobile, but lacks mobility

Magic NB is meant to be a mobile class--this is made evident by the amount of speed bonuses attached to their skills (Magic NB is the only class that can maintain a 85-90% uptime on Major Expedition without using speed potions thanks to skills like Crippling Grasp and Refreshing Path, with Warden and their Bird of Prey skill coming in second)--but these speed bonuses are rendered null by snares and roots, which are everywhere in PVP. This wasn't an issue back when Dark Cloak purged negative effects, but since it's purge was replaced with Minor Protection in the Thieves Guild patch snares have become a larger and larger issue for NBs.

As of now, there's two ways for magic NB to purge snares:

• Mist Form, which requires the NB to be a vampire, hampering build diversity
• Efficient Purge, which is too expensive to be frequently used as it stands on live, and will be almost impossible to use with the global sustain nerfs in Morrowind

Suggestion: Giving NB a way to purge snares through class skills would go a long way to help their survivability--NB has never been a 'stand-and-fight' class like DK or Templar, but is instead meant to mitigate through mobility, like Sorcerer. I'd suggest changing the Double Take morph of Blur to purge 5 snares and grant 2 seconds of snare immunity, to make it comparable to the medium armor skill Shuffle. This would give Nightblades a choice between tankiness, with the Mirage morph giving Minor Ward and Minor Resolve, and mobility, with Double Take giving a snare purge.

2.Buggy/clunky skills

This is a broad category, so I'll go skill by skill.

• Merciless Resolve

This skill is meant to be NB's bread-and-butter burst skill, but it's 0.1 second cast time makes it feel clunky.

Suggestion: Removing the 0.1 second cast time wouldn't affect the counterplay of Merciless, as the cast time is already so small that nobody can knowingly react to it (most people don't even know the skill has a cast time) but would make the skill feel more fluid for the caster.

Likewise, the changes to the animation priority system in the Dark Brotherhood made weaving light attacks to proc it clunky and inconsistent in lag.

Quick anecdote: there's been multiple times where I've been weaving resto staff light attacks in between my skills to proc Merciless, only to go to use the skill and find that it never procced in the first place. Although I saw the light attack go off (the beam leaves my staff and touches the target on my screen) the target takes no damage, and the game doesn't count it as a light attack. It eventually got so bad that I had to cave and download an addon that alerts me when Merciless Resolve has procced--I have no clue how a console player would be able to reliably use this skill.

Suggestion: Making Merciless Resolve proc off of any direct-damage attack instead of just light and heavy attacks would make the skill more consistent in lag, while also allowing DW and S&B NBs to more reliably proc this skill. This wouldn't affect Nightblade's performance in end-game, as you'd still want to be light attacking to proc weapon enchants/poisons and gain ultimate, but would make it more reliable.

• Shadow Cloak

Shadow Cloak's invisibility is broken by a LOT of things that it shouldn't be broken by (single target abilities.) Though some of these have been fixed in this PTS cycle, there's still a lot left, and some new ones have been introduced. Here's a few of them:

• The initial cast of Curse (not the damage component)
• The attacks from Shadow Image/Summon Shades
• The basic attacks from Sorcerer's pets (the scamp's light attack, the matriarch's light attack)
• Set effects like Sheer Venom's DOT

A more complete list can be found here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/326554/things-that-break-cloak/p1

• Agony

This is one of those rare bugs that work in the NB's favor, but I'll list it here anyways. Using Agony (both morphs and the base skill) on a mounted target (somebody riding their horse) causes them to be stunned, but unable to CC break. Hilarious for trolling, ganking, etc. Kinda surprised it hasn't been fixed, since it's been in the game since I started playing mNB (Imperial City patch.)

• Shadow Image

Difficult to tell when you're out of teleport range of your Shadow, as there's no visual or audio cue to tell you you're almost-out or out of range. This might be a bug and not just a clunky mechanic, as the Shadow Image's skill image's background doesn't change back from red to purple even if you're out of range of the Shadow, but it's worth mentioning anyways.

Suggestion: adding an audio cue (maybe the sound of a beating heart, or the sound of indistinct whispers?) that grows stronger the further you get from your Shadow, to indicate how much distance you have left before you're out of range.

3. Cloak is either feast or famine: either it works very well, or not at all

When Shadow Cloak works, it works very well--by making the caster untargetable, it effectively offers 100% mitigation against any new incoming damage, along with boosting the caster's damage (guaranteed crit, Master Assassin passive.) This is the 'feast', or when NB is doing very well.

However, when Shadow Cloak is countered, it's countered hard. Trying to use Cloak against somebody with Radiant Magelight, Hurricane, Biting Jabs, Haunting Curse, Encase, detect potions, etc. is effectively a waste of magicka--the skill gives effectively 0% mitigation, and the NB is unable to take advantage of the Master Assassin passive, or line up a combo with the guaranteed crit. This is the 'famine', or when NB is doing very badly.

This dynamic puts ZOS in a weird place: either they make counters to Cloak widespread and easily accessible (causing the NBs to 'famine'), or they make the counters to Cloak rare and hard to work into your build (letting the NBs 'feast'.) We've had both of these throughout ESO's lifetime, with 'feast' periods being from 1.5 to Thieves Guild, with 'famine' periods being from Thieves Guild (when they reworked Magelight to reveal the NB to everybody instead of just the Magelight's caster) to now.

Suggestion: Rework the Dark Cloak morph to work similarly to the vampire skill Mist Form, in that it makes the caster immune from snares and CCs and reduces their damage taken, but stops their magicka regen while channeling the skill and makes them unable to be healed. The NB would remain visible while in the skill, and would be unable to cast any other skills (like Mist Form.) This would provide NB a reliable, consistent mobility mechanic on par with Sorcerer's Streak and Vampire's Mist Form, while keeping the Shadowy Disguise morph as a high-risk, high-reward skill for those that enjoy that sort of playstyle.

Side note: Reworking the Master Assassin passive from being 10% increased weapon/spell damage while invisible or in stealth to a flat 6-8% bonus at all times would reduce NB's initial damage from stealth (which seems to be ZOS' goal with the changes to stealth damage bonuses) while making the passive more appealing for all types of NBs.

4. Nightblade's lack of damage-after-time abilities.

Note: For the purpose of this discussion, damage-after-time abilities are classified as any ability that does damage after a set amount of time after it's cast, without any additional inputs from the player (think Sorcerer's Haunting Curse.)

With the reworking of Backlash and the introduction of the Warden class, NB is currently the only class that has no access to a damage-after-time ability.

DK: Inhale/Draw Essence/Deep Breath's delayed 'exhale' AOE
Sorc: Haunting Curse/Daedric Prey
Templar: Backlash/Power of the Light/Purifying Light'
Warden: Scorch/Deep Fissure/Subterranean Assault

While DaT abilities aren't a big thing in PVE, they're huge in PVP, as they allow you to have multiple skills hit in the same global cooldown period. This lets you quickly combo different abilities together to burst down your opponent. In the past, NBs have used Proximity Detonation to fill the DaT gap in their class, but have been unable to effectively use it since the skill for single-target burst since the skill was nerfed in the Dark Brotherhood patch.

Side note: I was against the rework to Backlash, and I disagree with giving Warden an AOE DaT. However, if this is the direction ZOS wants to take the game in, then they need to take NB with them.

Suggestion: Rework Agony or one of it's morphs to be a damage-after-time ability, as it's currently redundant to the class (Mass Hysteria already covers NB's need for a CC.) This DaT could really be anything: it could scale off damage done like Backlash, or it could scale off spell damage and max magicka like Curse, or it could be an AOE like Inhale and Scorch. It doesn't really matter how the DaT works, so long as it's there and does enough damage to warrant slotting. This change would close the gap between magic NB and the other classes in PVP.

5. NB's reliance on projectiles

@stealthyevil already summarised this point up nicely in another post, so I'll just quote him:

stealthyevil wrote: »

In this thread I am going to be as objective as possible, due to the fact that my main is a Magic NB.

As it stands in the current patch (Homestead), Magic NB is in a weak spot for PvP and in PvE. For reference, I am going to be speaking from a PvP perspective because that’s what I spend most of my time doing.

The one problem that Magic NB has, in particular a destro/resto NB, is that every damage-dealing ability they use can be dodged, reflected and blocked, with the exception being Soul Tether at 150 Ultimate cost. Now, with that being said I do understand that fear (Mass Hysteria) is one of the most powerful AoE CCs in the game and a skilled NB can use that to their advantage, however, I am speaking from a broad perspective.

Lets do a simple comparison here with Magic Morphs to some class skills

Nightblade

• Fear - Unblockable/Unreflectable/Undodgeable
• Soul Tether - Unblockable/Undodgable (150 Ultimate)

Templar

• Purifying Light (+Morphs) - Unblockable/Stackable
• Puncturing Sweeps - Undodgeable
• Eclipse - Unbreakable (Now reflects everything that the victim casts [PTS 3.0] )

Sorcerer

• Daedric Curse - Undodgeable/ Unreflectable/ Stackable
• Encase - Unblockable
• Defensive Rune - An inevitable CC if you attack the Sorcerer
• Mines - Inevitable CC if you walk through them, but that is your fault if you do.
• Streak - Undodgeable, Unblockable (Bugged, Please fix streak)

Dragonknight

• Talons - Inevitable CC unless you have 2 sec immunity from new dodge passive [PTS 3.0]
• Petrify - Unblockable/Unreflectable/Undodgeable
• Dragon Leap - Undodgeable/unreflectable

Now, forgive me if I missed a certain ability or described it incorrectly, but as you can see every other class but a Magic NB has an unblockbale/undodgeable/unreflectable DAMAGE DEALING class skill that is not an ultimate.

What this leads to in a PvP scenario is Magic NB having to wear heavy armor to stay alive outnumbered. Heavy armor is necessary because they cannot shield stack as effectively as a sorcerer while wearing light armor in order to mitigate incoming unblockable/unrefectable damage. This was OKAY, because with siphoning attacks and the constitution passive the resource return was enough to keep yourself alive in certain situations and keep decent pressure on your opponents if you were fighting outnumbered.

With those two being nerfed dramatically, and upcoming CP changes Magic NB sustain has gone down the drain. Siphoning attacks was essential in restoring stamina to keep blocking/dodging incoming attacks, now it does not even restore stamina, and the return you get comparative to the cost is atrocious.

As it stands melee magic NB, is a gimped stamina nightblade with less damage, and destro/resto is a gimped sorcerer with significantly less damage. Now that does not mean magic NB is dead, it just means that you will have to time your burst with fear/tether to ensure everything hits, instead of casting abilities for undodgable damage.

Suggestions :

• I think Siphoning attacks should give you minor magic steal + stamina return, and Leeching Strikes should do Minor Lifesteal + Stamina Return as both are vital for survivability in PvP and PvE. What this also does, is forces you to play aggressive and keep pressure on your opponents in order to sustain yourself, which I believe is what a NB should be good at. This will allow similar sustain to live, as well as bringing back niche sap tank builds.
• Magic NB needs one class skill that is not an ultimate to be undodgeable in order to keep it competitive with the damage output Battlegrounds/Cyrodiil. If that is too much to ask for, then please for the love of god, Soul Harvest is an ultimate ability, please make that at least undodgable.
• Assassin’s Will needs to be a bit more consistent. I will make another post on this entirely.

Please leave feedback, weather negative or positive, it is much appreciated. These skills are still subject to change with future PTS notes so lets not get too hyped and be reasonable.

Link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4045421/

Suggestion: I agree with @NightbladeMechanics ' suggestion in that thread to make Impale undodgeable and unreflectable.

6. Incoming changes: Siphoning Attacks, Shadow Barrier

This has been covered a lot in other threads, so I'll link those here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4011185#Comment_4011185
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/335829/leeching-strikes
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/336536/nightblade-siphoning-attack-nerf-dks-templars-were-in-the-same-boat
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/336409/leeching-strikes-is-terrible-now
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/335892/siphoning-attacks-strikes-discussion-thread
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/336505/siphoning-attacks-in-pvp
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4009751/#Comment_4009751

As it currently stands on PTS, magic Nightblade is the only class that has no way to regain stamina through their class skills or passives. I believe that, while the values may need to be adjusted, the actual skill shouldn't change from how it is currently on live: it should return both magicka and stamina from light and heavy attacks, along with a chance to return both magicka and stamina when you cast an ability. Siphoning Attacks has worked like this since the game launched (with the only notable change being it being turned from a toggle to a 15 second duration) and was never considered overperforming by the devs, even when the game placed a huge emphasis on sustain, such as when softcaps were still in the game and before the introduction of the Champion Point system. Changing it now just seems weird--if the goal is to bring ESO back to a pre-CP system style of play, then Siphoning isn't what ZOS should be targeting.

Conclusion

Again, I encourage all other NB players to post their suggestions--ZOS has shown in the past that they're listening to us, and now's as good of a time as any to give them our feedback.

Jitterbug

Great thread. Will re-read for sure.

3 ways to purge snares though: Wyrd Tree

Edit: I do not agree with the changes to cloak (making it like mist). I need those seconds of invisibility to buff up before I re-engage. I could have stayed vamp if I wanted mist.
Try running 5 Wyrd tree on your cloak bar and get back to me

Edit 2: your DaT section is downright insightful. Good catch!

Brrrofski

Thing is with magica NB, why not just play sorc? Everytime I go on it, I want to enjoy it. But after a few hours I just want to change to my sorc. Burst and mobility are way way behind. I don't want merciless made easy. It's annoying as it's predictable, but whatever.

Thing is, siphoning allowed me to spec more into damage than other classes. So when you pulled off an obvious, predictable combo, it did hit really hard. Now with siphoning changes... Why bother? Magica sorc has an extra shield, can heal while DPSing like a mageblade, better bust by far and a lot better mobility. Mageblade has better cc... That's about it.

Why do mageblades KEEP getting screwed? Don't even get me started on saptanks. It now has the WORST sustain of them all. I have to use Stam to get Stam. That's seriously messed up.

arkansas_ESO

Jitterbug wrote: »

Great thread. Will re-read for sure.

3 ways to purge snares though: Wyrd Tree

Edit: I do not agree with the changes to cloak (making it like mist). I need those seconds of invisibility to buff up before I re-engage. I could have stayed vamp if I wanted mist.
Try running 5 Wyrd tree on your cloak bar and get back to me

I've run 5pc Spinner 5pc Wyrd and, while it worked, I felt like having to sacrifice a 5pc to make my main mobility skill (Cloak) work wasn't worth it. I had also hoped to use Wyrd to purge Backlash and Curse, but found that it's cooldown was too long to reliably use it for that. You're much better off staying vampire, using Mist Form, and then running something else in place of Wyrd IMO.

Jitterbug

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Great thread. Will re-read for sure.

3 ways to purge snares though: Wyrd Tree

Edit: I do not agree with the changes to cloak (making it like mist). I need those seconds of invisibility to buff up before I re-engage. I could have stayed vamp if I wanted mist.
Try running 5 Wyrd tree on your cloak bar and get back to me

I've run 5pc Spinner 5pc Wyrd and, while it worked, I felt like having to sacrifice a 5pc to make my main mobility skill (Cloak) work wasn't worth it. I had also hoped to use Wyrd to purge Backlash and Curse, but found that it's cooldown was too long to reliably use it for that. You're much better off staying vampire, using Mist Form, and then running something else in place of Wyrd IMO.

Personally, I just disagree. But no harm in that
My survivability skyrocketed when I made the switch from mist to wyrd-cloaking and while there are obvious drawbacks, to me it's the single most powerful 5 pc. in the game and a staple in all my builds. I found that I qould simply mist until I was either too far gone or crit rushed down anyway, but with cloak purging again (from wyrd) I could use the short breaks to buff/heal/reposition.
And I didn't mean what I wrote in any smart-assy way like I thought you didn't know about Wyrd. I can see how it may have sounded like that and I'm sorry.

CavalryPK

Could not agree more with your merciless comment. That skill.... every time you try to use it and the target LOSes... but you have another 15 seconds left on the proc. ... the skill will just refresh. ..

FlyLionel

Really nice post!

I agree 100% about the double take change. This gives the expedition morph cater to bomb blade/casual type of playstyle get in and out type of game play while your suggested new morph would cater to a true upgrade in competitive PVP for MagNB(Currently the weakest class in terms of real raw PVP). Major and minor evasion with removing snare would be a massive upgrade..disgustingly great(Dream team). Merciless needs this automatic refresh now.

There are AOE/Pots/Other Nbs with PMark(Now mages light and curse has an automatic re-proc), and cloak is still a problem for who? This is literally a PVP skill only with so many counters and like every NB has experienced it is not consistent. Our class defining skill(s) need to have weight/substance/consistency like Hurricane/Streak(not bugged, getting a fix though).

Nightblades have Dots but they are not on par with anything, twisting path gives us another expedition buff which is not needed; and agony is suppose to be our single target CC like fossalize but it is not even close. Either make it worth running single target wise over fear or just change it to a strong single target dot, yes there has to be a stam morph(I had to). Fear has a ranged trap based CC so what are we really doing here with agony? The skill is literally sitting there. Also soul harvest did not need a cost increase alongside incap.

QuebraRegra

Jitterbug wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Great thread. Will re-read for sure.

3 ways to purge snares though: Wyrd Tree

Edit: I do not agree with the changes to cloak (making it like mist). I need those seconds of invisibility to buff up before I re-engage. I could have stayed vamp if I wanted mist.
Try running 5 Wyrd tree on your cloak bar and get back to me

I've run 5pc Spinner 5pc Wyrd and, while it worked, I felt like having to sacrifice a 5pc to make my main mobility skill (Cloak) work wasn't worth it. I had also hoped to use Wyrd to purge Backlash and Curse, but found that it's cooldown was too long to reliably use it for that. You're much better off staying vampire, using Mist Form, and then running something else in place of Wyrd IMO.

Personally, I just disagree. But no harm in that
My survivability skyrocketed when I made the switch from mist to wyrd-cloaking and while there are obvious drawbacks, to me it's the single most powerful 5 pc. in the game and a staple in all my builds. I found that I qould simply mist until I was either too far gone or crit rushed down anyway, but with cloak purging again (from wyrd) I could use the short breaks to buff/heal/reposition.
And I didn't mean what I wrote in any smart-assy way like I thought you didn't know about Wyrd. I can see how it may have sounded like that and I'm sorry.

Hmm, this is interesting to me... almost like getting my purge from cloak back? Does it remove DOTs as well as snares, etc.?

Jitterbug

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Great thread. Will re-read for sure.

3 ways to purge snares though: Wyrd Tree

Edit: I do not agree with the changes to cloak (making it like mist). I need those seconds of invisibility to buff up before I re-engage. I could have stayed vamp if I wanted mist.
Try running 5 Wyrd tree on your cloak bar and get back to me

I've run 5pc Spinner 5pc Wyrd and, while it worked, I felt like having to sacrifice a 5pc to make my main mobility skill (Cloak) work wasn't worth it. I had also hoped to use Wyrd to purge Backlash and Curse, but found that it's cooldown was too long to reliably use it for that. You're much better off staying vampire, using Mist Form, and then running something else in place of Wyrd IMO.

Personally, I just disagree. But no harm in that
My survivability skyrocketed when I made the switch from mist to wyrd-cloaking and while there are obvious drawbacks, to me it's the single most powerful 5 pc. in the game and a staple in all my builds. I found that I qould simply mist until I was either too far gone or crit rushed down anyway, but with cloak purging again (from wyrd) I could use the short breaks to buff/heal/reposition.
And I didn't mean what I wrote in any smart-assy way like I thought you didn't know about Wyrd. I can see how it may have sounded like that and I'm sorry.

Hmm, this is interesting to me... almost like getting my purge from cloak back? Does it remove DOTs as well as snares, etc.?

As far as I can tell it does. It's exactly like getting purge from cloak back. But, it has a cooldown and "only" grabs 5 so it can't be spammed. It doesn't make cloak a get-away-from-everything-button, but it does feel a lot more like the old days.

Edit: So to keep in the spirit of the thread my suggestion is to add purge back to dark cloak and simply let it mimic Wyrd Tree with 5 as a max number of effects purged and an internal cooldown of 15 sec. My only other major gripe is with Merciless Resolve, but I feel a lot of other inputs to this thread will beat that horse, so I will stick to this one

Turelus

This is a really nice post and covers some of my issues with the class. +1 Insightful and hopes that the Devs give it a read.

technohic

Nice post OP. I'm not sure I agree with every suggestion but appreciate the thought you put behind this.

Lexxypwns

======DVA megathread part 10=====

This feels like overwatch forums

NightbladeMechanics

I'll be reading through this post in pieces and commenting on each bit separately while I work today. It's a lot to go through.

Glancing over the comments, I'll add that Wyrd is an underrated back bar set. It can't compete with Transmutation in stand-and-fight builds, but it's great in builds that rely on cloak and evasiveness. Combine with mist and shade for maximum slipperiness.

Wyrd would need a shorter cooldown to be competitive in stand-and-fight builds. 15 seconds is too too long with how easily dots and debuffs are reapplied.

casparian

Currently on live, and for the last several patches, Nightblade in general and magNB in particular has had a very unique playstyle. Rather than defeating enemies through many of the means available to other classes -- stacking damage in a single global cooldown, high-performance execute abilities, unblockable/undodgeable damage, and the other things you mention -- we won through attrition (due to our superior sustain), the unique combination of damage mitigation, mobility, and combat control that Cloak is meant to be, good old fashioned CC + burst combos, and our uniquely aggressive sustain mechanisms . The last point is particularly important: magNBs have always regained sufficient amounts of all three resources by maintaining aggression against enemies -- but crucially, sufficient amounts are regained only if the magNB maintains exactly the right balance of aggression and caution. To experienced magNBs, this is perhaps the most satisfying aspect of the class.

In 3.0.1, this aspect of magNB gameplay is completely gone. Siphoning Strikes and morphs have virtually no functionality on the PTS right now. It is rare to find someone who has tested the new version of this skill on PTS and thinks that it is worth slotting at all in PVP anymore. The added heal is superfluous -- magNBs already have some of the best self-administered HOTs in the game and do not need another -- and the remaining resource regeneration is only enough to refund the cost of the skill (and little else) if everything goes perfectly and opponents engage in no counterplay. This is a problem because Siphoning is not merely a sustain skill: it's a core defensive skill of the class. Dragonknights and Templars have resistance passives and passives that allow them to block more damage, and Sorcs have class shields and cost reduction passives. MagNBs have increased mobility and increased sustain that allows us to block (or break free, etc.) just a little more often than other magicka specs can. Anyone who has played magNB for a decent length of time in PVP knows that this seemingly small point is crucial to the class's survivability, not because it allows us to mitigate damage (by comparison, damage mitigation a huge part of what's attractive about blocking for Templars and Dragonknights) but because it allows us to deal with CC.

Whether this aspect of MagNB's defensive mechanics is retained or not, magNB needs some way to deal with snares. This is because magNB's entire damage mitigation mechanic is built around mobility, which is a design decision I love. However, this is by far the most easily countered damage mitigation mechanic in the game, due to the extremely high prevalence of snares. It was decided earlier that having Cloak purge snares was too powerful. arkansas_ESO's suggestions solves the problem without reintroducing that earlier one, by giving magNB a different way to purge snares. The most conservative solution would be to make Double Take purge snares and grant brief immunity to them. MagNBs do not need Double Take to grant yet another way to get Major Expedition -- as arkansas_ESO pointed out, we already have a far easier time than other classes keeping Major Expedition up. Double Take simply needs to allow magNBs to use the Major Expedition they already have, by purging snares.

(Side note: Wyrd Tree is an attractive option for magNBs because it gives us a way to deal with snares. But doesn't it seem odd for a class's main damage mitigation mechanic to be viable only through the use of tools not natively available to the class?)

I think that by far the largest portion of magNB's problems in PVP comes down to these two defensive mechanics. Solve them (by retaining the way Siphoning Strikes and morphs work on live, and giving magNB's a class-based way to deal with snares), and the class will be significantly more attractive without gaining overpowered advantages over other classes. But it is true that (as the OP and many others have pointed out) we lack offensive parity with other classes. I don't want to overstate this point -- Merciless Resolve is extremely potent, especially when combined with our amazing CC. But it is true that these potent aspects of the class are complemented almost entirely by easily counterable skills. Having a really good burst combo can only get you so far if everything you have (including that core burst ability) is reflectable and dodgable.

The one class skill that magNBs have that escapes this problem is Concealed Weapon. Unfortunately, this skill requires us to be in melee range, and I challenge the devs to find anyone who can explain to them how to succeed as a melee magNB in Homestead or on the PTS. Many have called for a buff to Concealed Weapon, which may be what is needed. I would also be happy with some other incentive to stay in melee range as a magNB. With the buffs to Path in two consecutive patches (Twisting's damage boost and Shadow Barrier's duration boost), I wonder whether ZOS might be going in this direction. If so, I applaud. But with the removal of Siphoning Strikes from our arsenal, we simply cannot risk melee range and the greater risk of CC that it brings.

On the other hand, ZOS has shown recent signs of wanting magNBs to stay out of melee range -- the increase to Impale's range being chief among them. This was a good change, but Impale still needs work. In particular, it needs to be unreflectable for exactly the reasons OP and others have been pointing out for some time. I am confident that I can succeed against other players with the damage tools currently available to magNB, except for the fact that our class execute is the most easily mitigated execute in the game while also having the most limited execute range (25% health). I don't think the execute range needs to change -- getting enemies to 25% is not what we struggle with -- but it does need to be less easy to mitigate than other execute abilities.

Finally, this is less important, but Assassin's Will does need a channel-time tweak.

Those are profoundly conservative changes, in my view. The Siphoning and snare suggestions simply seek to preserve design decisions that have already been made (preserving magNB's two main defensive mechanics: superior sustain and superior mobility), and the Assassin's Will suggestions in this thread are largely about quality-of-life from a PVP perspective. (Though I do think it would have a large positive impact in PVE, where magNB also needs some love.) Making Impale unreflectable is the only suggestion whose main purpose is to bring us closer to what other classes have.

One final note: ZOS may not want to be conservative with magNB. 3.0.1 signals that ZOS might be seeking to move away from the mobility-as-damage-mitigation mechanic that has always been central to the magNB class. By granting us longer uptime on Major Resolve/Ward on the use of Shadow abilities, ZOS might be signaling that they want the class to gravitate toward heavy armor and rely less on mobility. Despite being counterintuitive (what new player is going to think "the way to make this new nightblade assassin work is to outfit her in heavy plate"?) this might actually work -- on live, magNBs can sustain in heavy armor without going full tank thanks to Siphoning Strikes, and Heavy Armor's healing-received boost synergizes nicely with magNB's strengths. Unfortunately, not only is Siphoning Strikes becoming unusable in PVP, but heavy armor's native passives are receiving a similar reduction in usefulness. If ZOS wants us magNBs to go in the direction of heavy armor as our main mitigation tool instead of the old-fashioned Cloak + Expedition mitigation tool, they need to give us the sustain tools necessary to do so.

NightbladeMechanics

Regarding Double Take:

I like it. I've suggested outright snare and root removal and brief immunity for Double Take before, so I have a question. In the circumstance where you have 6+ snares applied to you simultaneously -- god bless the zerglings -- do you think it's op to remove them all? Personally, I don't. Imo this suggestion should function like Shuffle and just remove snares and roots outright, plus grant brief immunity.

Mirage is already such a great ability. I think these morphs would be competitive with each other. Maybe add minor evasion to mirage in addition to major evasion for un-nerfed major evasion status, but that might be overdoing it.

CavalryPK

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I'll be reading through this post in pieces and commenting on each bit separately while I work today. It's a lot to go through.

Glancing over the comments, I'll add that Wyrd is an underrated back bar set. It can't compete with Transmutation in stand-and-fight builds, but it's great in builds that rely on cloak and evasiveness. Combine with mist and shade for maximum slipperiness.

Wyrd would need a shorter cooldown to be competitive in stand-and-fight builds. 15 seconds is too too long with how easily dots and debuffs are reapplied.

I see what you mean. would a Templar take advantaged from this set ? to complement its ability to purge and be 100% debuff free all the time?

bubbygink

Excellent post. I wanted to go through and comment on a few things:

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

As of now, there's two ways for magic NB to purge snares:

• Mist Form, which requires the NB to be a vampire, hampering build diversity
• Efficient Purge, which is too expensive to be frequently used as it stands on live, and will be almost impossible to use with the global sustain nerfs in Morrowind

Suggestion: Giving NB a way to purge snares through class skills would go a long way to help their survivability--NB has never been a 'stand-and-fight' class like DK or Templar, but is instead meant to mitigate through mobility, like Sorcerer. I'd suggest changing the Double Take morph of Blur to purge 5 snares and grant 2 seconds of snare immunity, to make it comparable to the medium armor skill Shuffle. This would give Nightblades a choice between tankiness, with the Mirage morph giving Minor Ward and Minor Resolve, and mobility, with Double Take giving a snare purge.

This is a big issue for MNB. It is sad that almost all of us have had to go vamp and slot mistform over cloak, a skill which should define our class. But without mistform it is death by snares in PvP. I think your double take suggestion is a good one. Here is another suggestion that I have: make dark cloak remove snares instead of reduce damage by 8%. This wouldn't make the skill OP because it wouldn't be a full purge, but would just remove snares like shuffle or mistform. As of now cloak is practically useless because even if you mange to get cloaked you can barely move and can't reposition or just get pulled out from an AoE since it is easy to guess where you are. This would also give a meaningful choice in morph - chose shadowy disguise for crit (stam blades would likely chose this since it already has shuffle and it is in line with their bursty mechanics) or dark cloak for snare removal and mobility (magblades could chose this and slot it over mistform). Let me know what you think.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

2.Buggy/clunky skills

This is a broad category, so I'll go skill by skill.

• Merciless Resolve

Quick anecdote: there's been multiple times where I've been weaving resto staff light attacks in between my skills to proc Merciless, only to go to use the skill and find that it never procced in the first place. Although I saw the light attack go off (the beam leaves my staff and touches the target on my screen) the target takes no damage, and the game doesn't count it as a light attack. It eventually got so bad that I had to cave and download an addon that alerts me when Merciless Resolve has procced--I have no clue how a console player would be able to reliably use this skill.

This skill is very bugged on console. Many times it shows it proced when it actually isn't. Sometimes (and I guess this is for the good) it will proc twice in one cast - as in I will shoot the bow, won't recast merciless, but it will still proc again. Sometimes it does not shoot when fired which I think is attached to the awkward 0.1 cast time you mention. And, as you say here, it sometimes doesn't proc when it should. Very good bread and butter skill obviously and it works most of the time but it definitely bugs out a lot and needs some looking into, especially for us console players.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Shadow Cloak's invisibility is broken by a LOT of things that it shouldn't be broken by (single target abilities.) Though some of these have been fixed in this PTS cycle, there's still a lot left, and some new ones have been introduced. Here's a few of them:

Yes this needs to be fixed and also see my above suggestion for dark cloak changes which would help here.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

• Shadow Image

Difficult to tell when you're out of teleport range of your Shadow, as there's no visual or audio cue to tell you you're almost-out or out of range. This might be a bug and not just a clunky mechanic, as the Shadow Image's skill image's background doesn't change back from red to purple even if you're out of range of the Shadow, but it's worth mentioning anyways.

I don't know if this is exclusive to console but this skill, like merciless, is often bug with its "proc." It isn't really a proc per say but the color doesn't change correctly sometimes. For example: I will cast it but it will stay purple. So I think it didn't cast. So then I cast it again but turns out I had actually already casted it so I teleport like 2 feet. Well now I have to cast it again if I want to actually use it so I end up having to hit shadow image 3 times in a row - a huge issue on a class that needs to keep up tempo and pressure in a fight. LOVE this skill but it could have its visual/audio cues reworked and fixed to be much better.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

3. Cloak is either feast or famine: either it works very well, or not at all

When Shadow Cloak works, it works very well--by making the caster untargetable, it effectively offers 100% mitigation against any new incoming damage, along with boosting the caster's damage (guaranteed crit, Master Assassin passive.) This is the 'feast', or when NB is doing very well.

Suggestion: Rework the Dark Cloak morph to work similarly to the vampire skill Mist Form, in that it makes the caster immune from snares and CCs and reduces their damage taken, but stops their magicka regen while channeling the skill and makes them unable to be healed.

As I have read further I see you have the same suggestion. 100% support making a change like this to cloak. I do think it is important for us to be able to cast some skills in cloak though, such as buffs, and also to be able to charge a heavy attack. But I just think something needs to be done with the skill because right now most magblades don't even slot it...

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

4. Nightblade's lack of damage-after-time abilities.

With the reworking of Backlash and the introduction of the Warden class, NB is currently the only class that has no access to a damage-after-time ability.

Not sure we necessarily need a Damage after Time ability. I feel like magblade is more about constant pressure and tempo so I don't know if this would meld well with our class. Interesting analysis though, I hadn't thought about how nearly every other class has one.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

5. NB's reliance on projectiles

@stealthyevil already summarised this point up nicely in another post, so I'll just quote him:

stealthyevil wrote: »

In this thread I am going to be as objective as possible, due to the fact that my main is a Magic NB.
The one problem that Magic NB has, in particular a destro/resto NB, is that every damage-dealing ability they use can be dodged, reflected and blocked, with the exception being Soul Tether at 150 Ultimate cost. Now, with that being said I do understand that fear (Mass Hysteria) is one of the most powerful AoE CCs in the game and a skilled NB can use that to their advantage, however, I am speaking from a broad perspective.

This is an issue IMO. Currently a DK with wings and soon a Magplar with eclipse are going to be able to just shut us down (at least eclipse gives CC immunity). No other class in the game has such a hard counter like this. Sorc has plenty of non-reflectable skills and most other classes have 0-2 skills that are reflected. Meanwhile all the ranged skills in a magblade's kit are reflected (well impale is sort of "absorbed"). I don't necesarily have a suggestion, other than just making swallow soul not reflectable which seems like a cop-out, but I think this is definitely an issue that needs to be addressed. Magblades have definitely been singled out here.

As an aside - yes we have melee skills but melee magblades are essentially worthless now. They just don't work nearly as well as destro/restro. Seriously, when was the last time anybody saw a concealed weapon in their death recap?

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Suggestions :

• I think Siphoning attacks should give you minor magic steal + stamina return, and Leeching Strikes should do Minor Lifesteal + Stamina Return as both are vital for survivability in PvP and PvE. What this also does, is forces you to play aggressive and keep pressure on your opponents in order to sustain yourself, which I believe is what a NB should be good at. This will allow similar sustain to live, as well as bringing back niche sap tank builds.
• Magic NB needs one class skill that is not an ultimate to be undodgeable in order to keep it competitive with the damage output Battlegrounds/Cyrodiil. If that is too much to ask for, then please for the love of god, Soul Harvest is an ultimate ability, please make that at least undodgable.
• Assassin’s Will needs to be a bit more consistent. I will make another post on this entirely.

Item by item:

• As I'm sure you know from other threads I 100% absolutely agree with this. SA needs the duel magicka + stam recovery. That has been explored a lot on these forums and I just think there is no other way around it. ZoS has to add stam recovery back.
• As I said above I do agree that we have been singled out here. I am not sure exactly what skill should fit this - again just making it swallow soul seems a bit of a cop-out. Will definitely be looking for others' suggestions here. I see that Kena suggested Impale be undodgeable and unreflectable which may be a good suggestion - after all, Sorc's execute has these characteristics.
• See my comments above about assassins will. This is definitely true.

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

As it currently stands on PTS, magic Nightblade is the only class that has no way to regain stamina through their class skills or passives. I believe that, while the values may need to be adjusted, the actual skill shouldn't change from how it is currently on live: it should return both magicka and stamina from light and heavy attacks, along with a chance to return both magicka and stamina when you cast an ability. Siphoning Attacks has worked like this since the game launched (with the only notable change being it being turned from a toggle to a 15 second duration) and was never considered overperforming by the devs, even when the game placed a huge emphasis on sustain, such as when softcaps were still in the game and before the introduction of the Champion Point system. Changing it now just seems weird--if the goal is to bring ESO back to a pre-CP system style of play, then Siphoning isn't what ZOS should be targeting.

I already touched on it above but want to reiterate that I wholeheartedly agree: the single most important thing the devs needs to do with magblades moving forward is to restore the duel magicka and stam return of siphoning attacks. It just has to be done.

Joy_Division

I know Cloak is frustrating, but I find it easy to deal with a NB who mists rather than cloaks. I think your proposal in this respect would hurt NBs.

NightbladeMechanics

CavalryPK wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I'll be reading through this post in pieces and commenting on each bit separately while I work today. It's a lot to go through.

Glancing over the comments, I'll add that Wyrd is an underrated back bar set. It can't compete with Transmutation in stand-and-fight builds, but it's great in builds that rely on cloak and evasiveness. Combine with mist and shade for maximum slipperiness.

Wyrd would need a shorter cooldown to be competitive in stand-and-fight builds. 15 seconds is too too long with how easily dots and debuffs are reapplied.

I see what you mean. would a Templar take advantaged from this set ? to complement its ability to purge and be 100% debuff free all the time?

It would be unnecessary on a Templar because Templars can already purge at will. Wyrd is designed to supply a purge to classes who lack one. Its cooldown just makes it impractical against discerning enemies who simply reapply their debuffs.

bubbygink

casparian wrote: »

Currently on live, and for the last several patches, Nightblade in general and magNB in particular has had a very unique playstyle. Rather than defeating enemies through many of the means available to other classes -- stacking damage in a single global cooldown, high-performance execute abilities, unblockable/undodgeable damage, and the other things you mention -- we won through attrition (due to our superior sustain), the unique combination of damage mitigation, mobility, and combat control that Cloak is meant to be, good old fashioned CC + burst combos, and our uniquely aggressive sustain mechanisms . The last point is particularly important: magNBs have always regained sufficient amounts of all three resources by maintaining aggression against enemies -- but crucially, sufficient amounts are regained only if the magNB maintains exactly the right balance of aggression and caution. To experienced magNBs, this is perhaps the most satisfying aspect of the class.

Excellent post all around but the first paragraph, in particular, really resonates with me. Magblade is really about keeping up tempo and constant pressure in my opinion. Above I mentioned we don't need a damage after time ability because tempo and pressure is really our play style. As you said, the combination of swallow soul + siphoning attacks allows us to keep up all three resources while we remain offensive and apply pressure. We also have an excellent CC and tools like cloak and shadow image which allow us to keep pressure off us while constant applying pressure ourselves. This is what magblades have always excelled at. That is why, and I'll say it yet again, having siphoning attacks restore both stamina and magicka is absolutely critical to our entire play style. I've also said this all over forums and will paraphrase again here: it feels like not only has ZoS nerfed magblade, they totally gutted some of our core mechanics.

NightbladeMechanics

Regarding merciless:

I am relieved to see no suggestion to remove the need to recast the ability between procs. That recast is core to PvP combat patterns. I've beaten that horse enough on these forums, but I can elaborate if needed.

The .1 second channel time is not a core mechanic, though. I understand the original devs' purpose in forcing mageblades to drop block when firing this ability, but the channel time's only practical implication today, other than confusing new mageblade players, is preventing you from firing the proc at people line of sighting you. There isn't even a significant animation tied to the channel. The big red bow animation comes after the channel and can be animation cancelled consistently once you've mastered the timing.

Merciless is not buggy or clunky once you've practiced with it. It actually works smoothly and consistently. But its intricate mechanics require more learning than most abilities.

Weaving strife...now THAT is clunky and can make merciless and other mageblade abilities feel clunky. This has been has been an issue for a long time, and I'd rather see it addressed than merciless directly.

Making merciless count general direct damage toward proccing would require a nerf to remain balanced, and it would be a bandaid fix to the core issue in the first place. The light attack animations just need to be repaired.

FlyLionel

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Regarding Double Take:

I like it. I've suggested outright snare and root removal and brief immunity for Double Take before, so I have a question. In the circumstance where you have 6+ snares applied to you simultaneously -- god bless the zerglings -- do you think it's op to remove them all? Personally, I don't. Imo this suggestion should function like Shuffle and just remove snares and roots outright, plus grant brief immunity.

Mirage is already such a great ability. I think these morphs would be competitive with each other. Maybe add minor evasion to mirage in addition to major evasion for un-nerfed major evasion status, but that might be overdoing it.

I don't think it is OP, it would be something unique and special that a Nightblade has(Sorcs can streak over huge groups/DK has wings to reflect back, not sure the exact number though/Templars have purge). It is not making you win anything but giving you a chance and that is what is needed currently(no cooldown like shuffle can just spam). Minor evasion is now something only a Warden can get right? I think that is bs, we have evasion built into our structure/playstyle adding that to double take is a REAL buff for nightblades. And what we're looking for is true buffs to both pvp/pve

@bubbygink I think we do need another single target dot for pve mainly, whether it be a new morph with cripple or strip agony out. Cripple reduces the targets expedition and boosts our own..? Twisting path gives major expedition? These are PVP things. You can keep those morphs but we need a true Dot that puts nightblades in the mix with DK/Sorcerer.

technohic

CavalryPK wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

I'll be reading through this post in pieces and commenting on each bit separately while I work today. It's a lot to go through.

Glancing over the comments, I'll add that Wyrd is an underrated back bar set. It can't compete with Transmutation in stand-and-fight builds, but it's great in builds that rely on cloak and evasiveness. Combine with mist and shade for maximum slipperiness.

Wyrd would need a shorter cooldown to be competitive in stand-and-fight builds. 15 seconds is too too long with how easily dots and debuffs are reapplied.

I see what you mean. would a Templar take advantaged from this set ? to complement its ability to purge and be 100% debuff free all the time?

I ran it on my magplar for a while. It's a nice sustain set bet the cleanse is unnecessary with extended ritual. Lead me to try ritual of retribution but then you're dealing with keeping more debuffs on you with that cool down and missing out in the Templar best a morph in the game. I moved it to my mag blade Zerg surfer

Xvorg

Joy_Division wrote: »

I know Cloak is frustrating, but I find it easy to deal with a NB who mists rather than cloaks. I think your proposal in this respect would hurt NBs.

As sorc, and without using any revealing skill, what you need to do to find a recently cloaked NB is to streak in his direction, as a DK, Talons is the way to go. Since cloak has no mobility bonus to avoid being found, you have to:

1) Slot shadow or
2) Slot CW to get some mobility.

Problem is that 1), requires 2 utility skills (cloak and shadows) to work (leaving you 3 slots for healing, dmg and resources back) and 2) forces you to go melee mageblade, otherwise slotting CW just for the speed boost is the same that going to battle with only one leg.

Early in the morning I was thinking cloak should work on stealth instead of invis, reducing the time you need to enter into stealth, reducing your detection range and reducing the stealth cost... IDK if someday ZoS is gonna think about that.

Jitterbug

Xvorg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I know Cloak is frustrating, but I find it easy to deal with a NB who mists rather than cloaks. I think your proposal in this respect would hurt NBs.

As sorc, and without using any revealing skill, what you need to do to find a recently cloaked NB is to streak in his direction, as a DK, Talons is the way to go. Since cloak has no mobility bonus to avoid being found, you have to:

1) Slot shadow or
2) Slot CW to get some mobility.

Problem is that 1), requires 2 utility skills (cloak and shadows) to work (leaving you 3 slots for healing, dmg and resources back) and 2) forces you to go melee mageblade, otherwise slotting CW just for the speed boost is the same that going to battle with only one leg.
.

You just described my entire back bar

Xvorg

Jitterbug wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I know Cloak is frustrating, but I find it easy to deal with a NB who mists rather than cloaks. I think your proposal in this respect would hurt NBs.

As sorc, and without using any revealing skill, what you need to do to find a recently cloaked NB is to streak in his direction, as a DK, Talons is the way to go. Since cloak has no mobility bonus to avoid being found, you have to:

1) Slot shadow or
2) Slot CW to get some mobility.

Problem is that 1), requires 2 utility skills (cloak and shadows) to work (leaving you 3 slots for healing, dmg and resources back) and 2) forces you to go melee mageblade, otherwise slotting CW just for the speed boost is the same that going to battle with only one leg.
.

You just described my entire back bar

It is a standard bar, you are forced to run it front or back.

Problem is that mageblades were lacking build diversity, now with SA change, that diversity is even smaller.

And even if they fix cloak, there's the Stygian issue (which is now one of the worst sets)

makreth

See... this is why classes stopped feeling unique and having a special role because "Class A has it, Class B has it, my class must have it. In the end there will be no unique abilities or class that excel at a specific path. It's not bad and I'm not saying nightblade is at a good situation atm but I watched a templar thread the other days stating how templar was at the begining and boy....it was truely a unique class....nothing like it is now.

Lapin_Logic

STAMINA STEAL ability added to refreshing path, would add a valuable group buff making nightblades valued in a pve situation, gives nightblade tanks a buff for stamina return without constantly dropping block or being too powerful as it would have the same mechanics as magicka steal, also allows NB tanks the option of taking their prefered morph of siphoning attacks.

NightbladeMechanics

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

STAMINA STEAL ability added to refreshing path, would add a valuable group buff making nightblades valued in a pve situation, gives nightblade tanks a buff for stamina return without constantly dropping block or being too powerful as it would have the same mechanics as magicka steal, also allows NB tanks the option of taking their prefered morph of siphoning attacks.

Aoe staminasteal might be op..

NightbladeMechanics

Cloak still needs some fixes, but I've found it much more reliable this patch than in previous patches. I use it and mist form together sometimes, and that works well.

The thing to remember is not to expect cloak to work without setting it up some first. Don't spam it in enemies' faces. Use shade to gain distance, mist to line of sight, a cc to push people back, or some other method to gain some space before you cloak. Considering how strong complete invisibility is, I think this is fair.

TLDR cloak feels really good to me right now. A few more fixes for specific things that break it, and it'll be good to go.

CavalryPK

S Strike should return 400 Magicka and 400 Stamina and no health, and have no cost. Wardens get the Baby netch and it returns magicka while it is active... while magblades have to constantly light attack.