Magic Nightblade Megathread

bubbygink

technohic wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

Rejoice! Siphoning Strikes... have been changed again!

@CavalryPK Did they say this on PTS? Did they change it back to duel magicka and stam sustain? If so, that has made my day!

Said it on ESO live. Its should have a lower cost and give burst resource when it expires . Don't know if it is dual or magicka only.

If by expire they mean all 20 seconds have to go by then what a terrible change. As many have said throughout forums, siphoning attacks is too important to ever let it expire. It is often recast every time you LoS and have a free second to spare. I basically never let it expire. I hope it works like rally and gives a burst restore when re-used. That would actually be really interesting. But IMO the duel restore is critical.

A resource restore similar to Rally would be awesome.

Yea I could definitely get behind that. The total amount restored would build up and be greater if you waited a longer duration to re-cast siphoning. Just like how rally does the same with amount healed. ZoS may be on to something cool with that if they are taking it that direction. I still think duel mag and stam resource restore is imperative though. If they did a magicka+stamina resource restore similar to rally I think it would be a cool mechanic. Of course the net amount gained would have to be looked at - you'd gain some resources from the ability but then also lose the cost of casting the ability. But an interesting idea IMO depending on how it is implemented.

@arkansas_ESO @NightbladeMechanics @casparian What do you all think? Does it seem like a good idea or is there some pitfall I am missing here that would make this mechanic terrible?

technohic

bubbygink wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

Rejoice! Siphoning Strikes... have been changed again!

@CavalryPK Did they say this on PTS? Did they change it back to duel magicka and stam sustain? If so, that has made my day!

Said it on ESO live. Its should have a lower cost and give burst resource when it expires . Don't know if it is dual or magicka only.

If by expire they mean all 20 seconds have to go by then what a terrible change. As many have said throughout forums, siphoning attacks is too important to ever let it expire. It is often recast every time you LoS and have a free second to spare. I basically never let it expire. I hope it works like rally and gives a burst restore when re-used. That would actually be really interesting. But IMO the duel restore is critical.

A resource restore similar to Rally would be awesome.

Yea I could definitely get behind that. The total amount restored would build up and be greater if you waited a longer duration to re-cast siphoning. Just like how rally does the same with amount healed. ZoS may be on to something cool with that if they are taking it that direction. I still think duel mag and stam resource restore is imperative though. If they did a magicka+stamina resource restore similar to rally I think it would be a cool mechanic. Of course the net amount gained would have to be looked at - you'd gain some resources from the ability but then also lose the cost of casting the ability. But an interesting idea IMO depending on how it is implemented.

@arkansas_ESO @NightbladeMechanics @casparian What do you all think? Does it seem like a good idea or is there some pitfall I am missing here that would make this mechanic terrible?

Not getting both resources is what has lead me to focus on Magblade. Well; that and ganking not being all that appealing to me after the novelty of it on stamblade and it getting nerfed more.

I used the dual resource return so I could keep magicka utility available which is the real draw for me to play NB.

Xvorg

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

Rejoice! Siphoning Strikes... have been changed again!

@CavalryPK Did they say this on PTS? Did they change it back to duel magicka and stam sustain? If so, that has made my day!

Said it on ESO live. Its should have a lower cost and give burst resource when it expires . Don't know if it is dual or magicka only.

If by expire they mean all 20 seconds have to go by then what a terrible change. As many have said throughout forums, siphoning attacks is too important to ever let it expire. It is often recast every time you LoS and have a free second to spare. I basically never let it expire. I hope it works like rally and gives a burst restore when re-used. That would actually be really interesting. But IMO the duel restore is critical.

Great change, now I'm gettng my resources back after I'm dead...

They have no idea... no idea... no idea...

aeowulf

I don't mind the change to siphoning attacks as long as the following as ALL class based sustain skills (active or passive) are removed from the game.

DK's have a passive (zero cost, always on) that is restoring triple the stamina this skill does
Sorcs have a skill allowing a net gain of over 1k resource, technically spammable for a short period
Wardens getting a passive
Templars - big nerf to group stamina regen, not sure how else they were effected on a class level

I watched the cast tonight, interesting.

Some classes will always do things better than others, so Templars will always heal better, DK's always tank better, sorcs always DD (this used to be NB spot). The vision for NB's sounded like mobility. I have no idea what that means but I can't see that being useful in any situation. Looking like wardens will be more mobile anyway with their snare reduction passive?

I really want ZOS to look at NB before Morrowind, from a DPS perspective and a tank perspective. They are hurting DPS on a class that is already hurting and decimating the ability to tank. Siphoning kinda works like helping hands right now, we cast something but rather than get a 100% chance of 990 stamina (DK) we get a 10% chance of 2k magicka and stamina. So it's already not performing quite in the same league as helping hands, especially when you consider it has a cost associated with it and 15secs, but it is loved by the class.

Removing sustain hurts the classes with most sustain. NB's are already not overly placed in trials already (about 1 in 10 places on the leaderboards), I am lucky enough to tank for my guild on trials. Speaking to our raid leader tonight, this will not be the case after Morrowind unless I switch classes.

Unhappy NB tank.

aeowulf

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

Rejoice! Siphoning Strikes... have been changed again!

@CavalryPK Did they say this on PTS? Did they change it back to duel magicka and stam sustain? If so, that has made my day!

no, the resource returned per hit is being reduced (serious)

it will give an amount back at the end though = need to wait until Monday. doubt it will be enough to recast

casparian

bubbygink wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

Rejoice! Siphoning Strikes... have been changed again!

@CavalryPK Did they say this on PTS? Did they change it back to duel magicka and stam sustain? If so, that has made my day!

Said it on ESO live. Its should have a lower cost and give burst resource when it expires . Don't know if it is dual or magicka only.

If by expire they mean all 20 seconds have to go by then what a terrible change. As many have said throughout forums, siphoning attacks is too important to ever let it expire. It is often recast every time you LoS and have a free second to spare. I basically never let it expire. I hope it works like rally and gives a burst restore when re-used. That would actually be really interesting. But IMO the duel restore is critical.

A resource restore similar to Rally would be awesome.

Yea I could definitely get behind that. The total amount restored would build up and be greater if you waited a longer duration to re-cast siphoning. Just like how rally does the same with amount healed. ZoS may be on to something cool with that if they are taking it that direction. I still think duel mag and stam resource restore is imperative though. If they did a magicka+stamina resource restore similar to rally I think it would be a cool mechanic. Of course the net amount gained would have to be looked at - you'd gain some resources from the ability but then also lose the cost of casting the ability. But an interesting idea IMO depending on how it is implemented.

@arkansas_ESO @NightbladeMechanics @casparian What do you all think? Does it seem like a good idea or is there some pitfall I am missing here that would make this mechanic terrible?

A Rally-like mechanic could work fine, and it does sound as though the change announced on ESO Live is heading in that direction. I'm optimistic about it and look forward to testing -- I would prefer the reliability of a steady stream over a burst at the end, but I'm sure I can learn to adapt to this and use it well.

But this change concerns how much of the one resource (stam or mag depending on the morph) is returned and the mechanics of returning the resource. As you point out, it doesn't touch on the bigger issue: the loss of a dual-resource return for Nightblades. The devs have yet even to show an awareness that dual-resource return is a part of sustain. Each time they talk about sustain, it is about primary resource sustain. (Remember, they only made the various changes to Luminous Shards that we've seen in the past week or so because half the forum rose up and reminded them that secondary resource pools are part of the game.)

While the numbers obviously matter, I'm much more concerned about the loss of a dual-resource return from Siphoning Attacks than I am about the manner in which we get one resource back.

NightbladeMechanics

@bubbygink I didn't see the ESO live, and I'm not following this whole discussion. However, a burst resource return mechanic based on how long your Siphoning Attacks buff was active is smart.

ZOS's goal next patch is to make players play smarter by constraining sustain. They view the live version of Siphoning Attacks as a source of excessive sustain, but they may recognize the PTS version is insufficient.

For example, I see in a quote higher on this page where you said you refresh SA while line of sighting or at other times before the buff ends. That illustrates how forgiving sustaining on live is. By design, that is inefficient use of the skill and should be punished. We should be rewarded for controlling a fight's rhythm such that we can refresh Siphoning Attacks as close to the end of its duration as possible, maximizing our net return.

I would support changing Siphoning Attacks to give small amounts of magicka and sustain on light and heavy attacks, and then a burst return of magicka when the duration ends or is refreshed which scales with how long the buff was up. The return can even be really high if you refresh SA within the last two seconds of its duration. That would support skillful buff management.

I don't think the return should be zero if you let the buff expire, as we do that deliberately sometimes. But it should not be as high as refreshing the buff in the last seconds of its duration since that takes actual awareness and timeliness.

thankyourat

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@bubbygink I didn't see the ESO live, and I'm not following this whole discussion. However, a burst resource return mechanic based on how long your Siphoning Attacks buff was active is smart.

ZOS's goal next patch is to make players play smarter by constraining sustain. They view the live version of Siphoning Attacks as a source of excessive sustain, but they may recognize the PTS version is insufficient.

For example, I see in a quote higher on this page where you said you refresh SA while line of sighting or at other times before the buff ends. That illustrates how forgiving sustaining on live is. By design, that is inefficient use of the skill and should be punished. We should be rewarded for controlling a fight's rhythm such that we can refresh Siphoning Attacks as close to the end of its duration as possible, maximizing our net return.

I would support changing Siphoning Attacks to give small amounts of magicka and sustain on light and heavy attacks, and then a burst return of magicka when the duration ends or is refreshed which scales with how long the buff was up. The return can even be really high if you refresh SA within the last two seconds of its duration. That would support skillful buff management.

I don't think the return should be zero if you let the buff expire, as we do that deliberately sometimes. But it should not be as high as refreshing the buff in the last seconds of its duration since that takes actual awareness and timeliness.

I'm hoping to get away from casting siphoning attacks too frequently as well. I think all console nightblades struggle with this on live because we don't have buff trackers. It's hard to know how long you have left on siphoning attacks so I often recast it too often so the buff doesn't expire. I hoping this changes with consoles receiving buff trackers.

NightbladeMechanics

thankyourat wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@bubbygink I didn't see the ESO live, and I'm not following this whole discussion. However, a burst resource return mechanic based on how long your Siphoning Attacks buff was active is smart.

ZOS's goal next patch is to make players play smarter by constraining sustain. They view the live version of Siphoning Attacks as a source of excessive sustain, but they may recognize the PTS version is insufficient.

For example, I see in a quote higher on this page where you said you refresh SA while line of sighting or at other times before the buff ends. That illustrates how forgiving sustaining on live is. By design, that is inefficient use of the skill and should be punished. We should be rewarded for controlling a fight's rhythm such that we can refresh Siphoning Attacks as close to the end of its duration as possible, maximizing our net return.

I would support changing Siphoning Attacks to give small amounts of magicka and sustain on light and heavy attacks, and then a burst return of magicka when the duration ends or is refreshed which scales with how long the buff was up. The return can even be really high if you refresh SA within the last two seconds of its duration. That would support skillful buff management.

I don't think the return should be zero if you let the buff expire, as we do that deliberately sometimes. But it should not be as high as refreshing the buff in the last seconds of its duration since that takes actual awareness and timeliness.

I'm hoping to get away from casting siphoning attacks too frequently as well. I think all console nightblades struggle with this on live because we don't have buff trackers. It's hard to know how long you have left on siphoning attacks so I often recast it too often so the buff doesn't expire. I hoping this changes with consoles receiving buff trackers.

Or you could count it down, watch the little red animation it puts on your weapons, or notice when your attacks stop giving back resources. With practice, the timing becomes second nature. Practice weaving Siphoning in with your aggression, and you can keep 100% uptime without wasting resources refreshing it early.

Buff trackers are crutches, and not every PC player uses one. I used to have one because I'd forget my food buff, and all the other buffs annoyed the hell out of me. I stopped using it during One Tamriel and made a habit of frequently checking my food buff in my character screen. Never needed it, still don't, and nor do you.

Edit: I'll add that the way I first trained myself into a rhythm with Siphoning was making a habit to refresh it during every second merciless cycle. If you fire off your merciless procs as they come up, three fit perfectly within the 15s duration of siphoning. I tend to hold my merciless procs a little bit longer in order to set up a good hit, so two fit in nicely for me. With experience, I'm at the point now where I can feel the Siphoning duration coming to an end and recast the skill as it expires without having to think about it. Desto mageblade has a special rhythm revolving around merciless. Siphoning is no exception.

CavalryPK

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@bubbygink I didn't see the ESO live, and I'm not following this whole discussion. However, a burst resource return mechanic based on how long your Siphoning Attacks buff was active is smart.

ZOS's goal next patch is to make players play smarter by constraining sustain. They view the live version of Siphoning Attacks as a source of excessive sustain, but they may recognize the PTS version is insufficient.

For example, I see in a quote higher on this page where you said you refresh SA while line of sighting or at other times before the buff ends. That illustrates how forgiving sustaining on live is. By design, that is inefficient use of the skill and should be punished. We should be rewarded for controlling a fight's rhythm such that we can refresh Siphoning Attacks as close to the end of its duration as possible, maximizing our net return.

I would support changing Siphoning Attacks to give small amounts of magicka and sustain on light and heavy attacks, and then a burst return of magicka when the duration ends or is refreshed which scales with how long the buff was up. The return can even be really high if you refresh SA within the last two seconds of its duration. That would support skillful buff management.

I don't think the return should be zero if you let the buff expire, as we do that deliberately sometimes. But it should not be as high as refreshing the buff in the last seconds of its duration since that takes actual awareness and timeliness.

I'm hoping to get away from casting siphoning attacks too frequently as well. I think all console nightblades struggle with this on live because we don't have buff trackers. It's hard to know how long you have left on siphoning attacks so I often recast it too often so the buff doesn't expire. I hoping this changes with consoles receiving buff trackers.

Or you could count it down, watch the little red animation it puts on your weapons, or notice when your attacks stop giving back resources. With practice, the timing becomes second nature. Practice weaving Siphoning in with your aggression, and you can keep 100% uptime without wasting resources refreshing it early.

Buff trackers are crutches, and not every PC player uses one. I used to have one because I'd forget my food buff, and all the other buffs annoyed the hell out of me. I stopped using it during One Tamriel and made a habit of frequently checking my food buff in my character screen. Never needed it, still don't, and nor do you.

Edit: I'll add that the way I first trained myself into a rhythm with Siphoning was making a habit to refresh it during every second merciless cycle. If you fire off your merciless procs as they come up, three fit perfectly within the 15s duration of siphoning. I tend to hold my merciless procs a little bit longer in order to set up a good hit, so two fit in nicely for me. With experience, I'm at the point now where I can feel the Siphoning duration coming to an end and recast the skill as it expires without having to think about it. Desto mageblade has a special rhythm revolving around merciless. Siphoning is no exception.

I can attest to that!

arkansas_ESO

bubbygink wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

bubbygink wrote: »

CavalryPK wrote: »

Rejoice! Siphoning Strikes... have been changed again!

@CavalryPK Did they say this on PTS? Did they change it back to duel magicka and stam sustain? If so, that has made my day!

Said it on ESO live. Its should have a lower cost and give burst resource when it expires . Don't know if it is dual or magicka only.

If by expire they mean all 20 seconds have to go by then what a terrible change. As many have said throughout forums, siphoning attacks is too important to ever let it expire. It is often recast every time you LoS and have a free second to spare. I basically never let it expire. I hope it works like rally and gives a burst restore when re-used. That would actually be really interesting. But IMO the duel restore is critical.

A resource restore similar to Rally would be awesome.

Yea I could definitely get behind that. The total amount restored would build up and be greater if you waited a longer duration to re-cast siphoning. Just like how rally does the same with amount healed. ZoS may be on to something cool with that if they are taking it that direction. I still think duel mag and stam resource restore is imperative though. If they did a magicka+stamina resource restore similar to rally I think it would be a cool mechanic. Of course the net amount gained would have to be looked at - you'd gain some resources from the ability but then also lose the cost of casting the ability. But an interesting idea IMO depending on how it is implemented.

@arkansas_ESO @NightbladeMechanics @casparian What do you all think? Does it seem like a good idea or is there some pitfall I am missing here that would make this mechanic terrible?

It's a decent tweak to a bad decision to nerf an underperforming class. We're still the only class that can't exchange magicka for stamina (or get stamina for free like Warden), our potential burst is still lower than magic sorc and magic Templar, our mobility is still lower than magic sorc and any stamina build, and since the Swallow Soul nerf we lack any utility apart from Fear. It's pretty hard to justify playing a magic NB as anything but a ganker or AOE bomber (and neither of these roles are needed in small-scale situations like battlegrounds) right now on live, these upcoming changes only reinforce that.

seanj87

My biggest issue with magblade in PVP is the duration of Merciless Resolve, 20 seconds is simply not long enough, Increasing to 30 seconds would be all that is needed to make the skill viable in PVP.

Torbschka

Jitterbug wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Great thread. Will re-read for sure.

3 ways to purge snares though: Wyrd Tree

Edit: I do not agree with the changes to cloak (making it like mist). I need those seconds of invisibility to buff up before I re-engage. I could have stayed vamp if I wanted mist.
Try running 5 Wyrd tree on your cloak bar and get back to me

I've run 5pc Spinner 5pc Wyrd and, while it worked, I felt like having to sacrifice a 5pc to make my main mobility skill (Cloak) work wasn't worth it. I had also hoped to use Wyrd to purge Backlash and Curse, but found that it's cooldown was too long to reliably use it for that. You're much better off staying vampire, using Mist Form, and then running something else in place of Wyrd IMO.

Personally, I just disagree. But no harm in that
My survivability skyrocketed when I made the switch from mist to wyrd-cloaking and while there are obvious drawbacks, to me it's the single most powerful 5 pc. in the game and a staple in all my builds. I found that I qould simply mist until I was either too far gone or crit rushed down anyway, but with cloak purging again (from wyrd) I could use the short breaks to buff/heal/reposition.
And I didn't mean what I wrote in any smart-assy way like I thought you didn't know about Wyrd. I can see how it may have sounded like that and I'm sorry.

Is wyrd free coming in arcane jewelry or do i have to use heavy with it?

thankyourat

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@bubbygink I didn't see the ESO live, and I'm not following this whole discussion. However, a burst resource return mechanic based on how long your Siphoning Attacks buff was active is smart.

ZOS's goal next patch is to make players play smarter by constraining sustain. They view the live version of Siphoning Attacks as a source of excessive sustain, but they may recognize the PTS version is insufficient.

For example, I see in a quote higher on this page where you said you refresh SA while line of sighting or at other times before the buff ends. That illustrates how forgiving sustaining on live is. By design, that is inefficient use of the skill and should be punished. We should be rewarded for controlling a fight's rhythm such that we can refresh Siphoning Attacks as close to the end of its duration as possible, maximizing our net return.

I would support changing Siphoning Attacks to give small amounts of magicka and sustain on light and heavy attacks, and then a burst return of magicka when the duration ends or is refreshed which scales with how long the buff was up. The return can even be really high if you refresh SA within the last two seconds of its duration. That would support skillful buff management.

I don't think the return should be zero if you let the buff expire, as we do that deliberately sometimes. But it should not be as high as refreshing the buff in the last seconds of its duration since that takes actual awareness and timeliness.

I'm hoping to get away from casting siphoning attacks too frequently as well. I think all console nightblades struggle with this on live because we don't have buff trackers. It's hard to know how long you have left on siphoning attacks so I often recast it too often so the buff doesn't expire. I hoping this changes with consoles receiving buff trackers.

Or you could count it down, watch the little red animation it puts on your weapons, or notice when your attacks stop giving back resources. With practice, the timing becomes second nature. Practice weaving Siphoning in with your aggression, and you can keep 100% uptime without wasting resources refreshing it early.

Buff trackers are crutches, and not every PC player uses one. I used to have one because I'd forget my food buff, and all the other buffs annoyed the hell out of me. I stopped using it during One Tamriel and made a habit of frequently checking my food buff in my character screen. Never needed it, still don't, and nor do you.

Edit: I'll add that the way I first trained myself into a rhythm with Siphoning was making a habit to refresh it during every second merciless cycle. If you fire off your merciless procs as they come up, three fit perfectly within the 15s duration of siphoning. I tend to hold my merciless procs a little bit longer in order to set up a good hit, so two fit in nicely for me. With experience, I'm at the point now where I can feel the Siphoning duration coming to an end and recast the skill as it expires without having to think about it. Desto mageblade has a special rhythm revolving around merciless. Siphoning is no exception.

Yes when I'm in a good rhythm I find it easier to maintain all my buffs. I find it a little harder when I'm being heavily pressured by multiple people. That's been my main focus lately. I try to find fights I know I can't win against 7 or 8 people and just practice my rotation. I'm finding it more beneficial to reapply all my buffs if I get los so I have a longer duration to be in combat if need be. I often lose track of how long my buffs are active when I'm running for life as well lol. That's what i meant by casting it too frequently. I'm not spamming it I just don't like to cast buffs in 1vX combat when I'm applying pressure. So I usually cast buffs when I get LoS. Try to kill 1 or 2 people and repeat. Where as when I use to duel I just cast it every second merciless proc like you said. I would like the siphoning change to be like rally though I'm sure I'll just have a couple days of learn to play before I get use to it, but anything that adds a layer of skill to the game I'm all for it. I know I will have to get use too it though.

I won't speak on the usefulness of buff trackers because I've never been able to use one, but it does seem beneficial to help with resource management. I agree I we don't need them we been playing for 2 years without them. I kind of want one though lol

HEBREWHAMMERRR

Late to the party but some interesting ideas thrown around. I'm not really asking for much..old cloak purge to counterplay the insane amount of snares in the game. Rework of merciless to act as more of a toggle or self recast to make it a tad more fluid (and removal of .1 sec cast time would be appreciated). I think the change to cloak would somewhat counter balance the nerf to our stam recovery with the siphoning change. Only other small thing I would like to see is siphoning cost removed to be more inline with wardens betty netch ability. Hope they address the class as I've been a day one Magblade and it has had its ups and downs but is the most fun playstyle..it's just not fun at the moment due to not being "brought up to speed" with the current patches. Sure, bombing is fun..but gets old VERY quick and that isn't why I made the class to be a jihad bomber..it's about survival and harassing/utility, not suicide missions.

Pijng

Torbschka wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Great thread. Will re-read for sure.

3 ways to purge snares though: Wyrd Tree

Edit: I do not agree with the changes to cloak (making it like mist). I need those seconds of invisibility to buff up before I re-engage. I could have stayed vamp if I wanted mist.
Try running 5 Wyrd tree on your cloak bar and get back to me

I've run 5pc Spinner 5pc Wyrd and, while it worked, I felt like having to sacrifice a 5pc to make my main mobility skill (Cloak) work wasn't worth it. I had also hoped to use Wyrd to purge Backlash and Curse, but found that it's cooldown was too long to reliably use it for that. You're much better off staying vampire, using Mist Form, and then running something else in place of Wyrd IMO.

Personally, I just disagree. But no harm in that
My survivability skyrocketed when I made the switch from mist to wyrd-cloaking and while there are obvious drawbacks, to me it's the single most powerful 5 pc. in the game and a staple in all my builds. I found that I qould simply mist until I was either too far gone or crit rushed down anyway, but with cloak purging again (from wyrd) I could use the short breaks to buff/heal/reposition.
And I didn't mean what I wrote in any smart-assy way like I thought you didn't know about Wyrd. I can see how it may have sounded like that and I'm sorry.

Is wyrd free coming in arcane jewelry or do i have to use heavy with it?

Wyrd tree is a heavy set which means it comes with the healthy jewelry, but there is named necklace coming in arcane tho

VelociousLegend

I just hope ZOS reads this thread thoroughly. Magblades have been suffering for several patches now. Please consider even a few of these suggestions in this thread to become reality.

Good work OP. Thanks for putting this together to explain all of the pain points magblades have. Even better, providing sensible suggestions to improve the class and its skills.

Pijng

VelociousLegend wrote: »

I just hope ZOS reads this thread thoroughly. Magblades have been suffering for several patches now. Please consider even a few of these suggestions in this thread to become reality.

Good work OP. Thanks for putting this together to explain all of the pain points magblades have. Even better, providing sensible suggestions to improve the class and its skills.

I hope so too. But, actually, they reads just like every thread. The problem is that we dont know will they take it into account :c And I really like how people are working on the upcoming trouble. Because the "rally-like" siphoning attack is great idea.

Pijng

Just want to say some stuff about "Siphoning Rally"
Sorry for not quite accurate math but this is more like for example:

• Siphoning Attacks on live : 1090 stamina and magica per base attack(light or heavy) and 2181 stam and mag from other direct damage attacks with a 10% chance. 15 second duration.

Lets suppose that it takes a 1.5 seconds to do a weave attack with some skill — 1090 resources per 1.5 secs.
What about "10% proc from direct attacks"...probably, twisting path, elemental blocade, swallow soul, cripling grasp(first "tick" when applies to an enemy), grothdarr, skoria etc are sources of direct damage attacks. So we have a spam skill - swallow soul or force pulse for example - and light attack every 1.5 seconds as well as twisting path and elemental blocade, same goes to skoria which procs every 5 secs(cripling grasp or/and entropy are used too):

1. 15/1.5 = 10 weave attacks which is 10900 stamina and magica and 1 proc for additional 2181 = 13081
2. We use elemental blocade twice in 15 secs which is another 4362 resources
3. Same goes to twisting path and another 4362 resources
4. And now grothdarr or skoria: proc 2 times in 15 secs for 4362 resources
5. Destro ultimate for additional 2181

And we have about: 13081 + (4362 * 3.5) = 28348 resources back in 15 seconds = 1889 stamina and magica per second. Notice that we didnt use some "useless for us" sources of direct damage, also this is something around a maximum procs for additional 2181 resources.
We all know that this is hard to keep the enemy in the radius of your twisting path/elemental blocade(nobody use it in pvp tho)/endless hail/caltrops or whatever, if we talking about pvp. Lets just drop blocade and path and we get around 19624/15 = 1308 stamina and magica per second.

And first number, as well as second, is a really high amount of res' back from one skill. That's why they want to nerf it, even if we have to do a lot of things and practiced enough rotation. But ZOS will do it in a wrong way.

Finally about "Siphoning Rally".

• Siphoning Spirit : Focus your soul to restore 696 Magica and Stamina for 15 seconds. The final tick is increased in proportion to the length of time Siphoning Spirit has been active

*Ye, its no longer attacks so need to replace "attacks" word in the name...uhm, mb something like 'Siphoning Spirit' haha, nvm.
I took 696 resources in 1 second just in case of pvp: break free costs 4872 stamina, there is a 6 seconds immunity to all CC and I use another 1 second just to make it more "balanced" thats why we have 4872/7 = 696, btw the numbers are changeable, my goal is to show how good this ability could be.
In case of 15 seconds duration we will restore 696 * 14 = 9744 resources without final tick. What about that last tick, mb it could be this way: the final tick is increased for 35% for every second of Siphoning Spirit has been active. It means that the last restoring tick is increased on 35 * 14 = 490%. This is another 4106 stamina and magica which is close to another break free but less, because in that case (3rd break free) this ability could be a bit op.
Well, now we have 9744 + 4106 = 13850 restored resources in 15 secs and probably 13850/15 = ~923 res' in 1 second. And notice that we have to spend some amount of magica(or stamina, who knows) to activate this ability, hm, lets say something around 2784 - 3480 mag/stam cost. In that case we spend 4-5 seconds just to return our main resource back. But still we have a powerful final tick which means that we have to play smarter otherwise we will lose more than get.

Of course I know that 923 "free" recovery for both resources is still high. But as I said, numbers are changeable (just dont let it be 396 c: )

Sorry again for bad math about current siphoning attacks.

NightbladeMechanics

I see people talking about Wyrd Tree again. I really love that set's concept, but it has one fatal flaw compared to other utility sets that keep it from being viable outside of combining with cloak to get an old school cloak + purge every 15 seconds.

And that's it's flaw. The set only purges every 15 seconds. If you don't dip out of the fight with shade or cloak right as you purge, the enemy will just reapply his dots and debuffs, and you're back to square one with nothing to show for it.

I made this suggestion on these forums back in One Tamriel when I experimented with the set, but I'll share again here:

Wyrd Tree's Blessing:
2pc - 129 magicka recovery
3pc - 129 spell damage
4pc - 129 magicka recovery
5pc - When you cast a magicka ability, you have a 40% chance to remove 2 negative effects from yourself. This effect can occur once every 3 seconds.

I had originally distributed the 5 purges evenly over the 15 second cooldown, making them 1 purge every 3 seconds without the rng component, but that would have been too op against sorcs. Good luck getting a curse combo to work when your build uses 2-3 negative effects at most, and your enemy gets a free purge every 3 seconds... Then I made it a 50% chance to remove 2 negative effects with the 3 second cooldown, but even though that is mathematically the same, it would have removed more purges per 15 seconds in practice since it would tend to proc every 3-4 seconds (3.5 seconds * 2 purges = 8.5 purges per 15 seconds).

Blah blah blah. Anyways, thoughts?

technohic

It definitely could use a shorter CD but it is still a decent sustain set with the purge being just a bonus. I control it a little bit by having it back barred with sword and shield where I keep cloak and shadow image

CavalryPK

technohic wrote: »

It definitely could use a shorter CD but it is still a decent sustain set with the purge being just a bonus. I control it a little bit by having it back barred with sword and shield where I keep cloak and shadow image

I dont know man... in a heated pvp battle dots are applied every few seconds. So as the set is now. In would not use it. Because in 15 seconds a lot of things could happen. I would much prefer @NightbladeMechanics suggestions on the 40% purge and 3 second cool down. I think as a magick nightblade i hope swollow sould would proc it.

technohic

CavalryPK wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

It definitely could use a shorter CD but it is still a decent sustain set with the purge being just a bonus. I control it a little bit by having it back barred with sword and shield where I keep cloak and shadow image

I dont know man... in a heated pvp battle dots are applied every few seconds. So as the set is now. In would not use it. Because in 15 seconds a lot of things could happen. I would much prefer @NightbladeMechanics suggestions on the 40% purge and 3 second cool down. I think as a magick nightblade i hope swollow sould would proc it.

Yeah; I'd prefer that as well. Just saying I do get use out of it.

NightbladeMechanics

technohic wrote: »

It definitely could use a shorter CD but it is still a decent sustain set with the purge being just a bonus. I control it a little bit by having it back barred with sword and shield where I keep cloak and shadow image

Transmutation gives the same two lines of regen and a stronger defensive buff. It's better for brawly nightblades. Wyrd makes for some cloak escapes, but it's inconsistent otherwise. It could be a valuable set for more play styles of nightblade and magicka dk with a small rework.

CavalryPK

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

It definitely could use a shorter CD but it is still a decent sustain set with the purge being just a bonus. I control it a little bit by having it back barred with sword and shield where I keep cloak and shadow image

Transmutation gives the same two lines of regen and a stronger defensive buff. It's better for brawly nightblades. Wyrd is good if you're using it with cloak escapes, but it's inconsistent otherwise.

Yep. Agree with this. Currently i prefer transmission over any other regen set. I may end up replacing it with shaklebraker. When the new patch drops.

technohic

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

It definitely could use a shorter CD but it is still a decent sustain set with the purge being just a bonus. I control it a little bit by having it back barred with sword and shield where I keep cloak and shadow image

Transmutation gives the same two lines of regen and a stronger defensive buff. It's better for brawly nightblades. Wyrd makes for some cloak escapes, but it's inconsistent otherwise. It could be a valuable set for more play styles of nightblade and magicka dk with a small rework.

The 5th piece of transmutation seems to be a loss for me when back barred. I'm not really healing with that bar being 1h shield or dual wield. I suppose if a HOT ticks at the right time.

thankyourat

Has anyone tried amberplasm on magblade and if so how is the stamina sustain? I'm thinking of a melee build that I want to run next patch and I just wanted to know if anyone tried this set. I always thought of it as a waste because of siphoning attacks. I also been thinking about switching to duel stat drink. I ran drink pretty much up until thieves guild

NightbladeMechanics

technohic wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

It definitely could use a shorter CD but it is still a decent sustain set with the purge being just a bonus. I control it a little bit by having it back barred with sword and shield where I keep cloak and shadow image

Transmutation gives the same two lines of regen and a stronger defensive buff. It's better for brawly nightblades. Wyrd makes for some cloak escapes, but it's inconsistent otherwise. It could be a valuable set for more play styles of nightblade and magicka dk with a small rework.

The 5th piece of transmutation seems to be a loss for me when back barred. I'm not really healing with that bar being 1h shield or dual wield. I suppose if a HOT ticks at the right time.

Do you use entropy, path, or swallow soul? If so, Transmutation has 100% uptime with no exceptions. Also do you tend to brawl and take hits, or do you use shade and cloak and try to avoid upfront confrontation? If you're taking hits from enemies, Transmutation is god mode. If you're cloaking around and playing evasively, it's a waste.

I'm of the opinion that mageblade is strongest and most consistent when specced to brawl and take hits, using its hots as defense. Shield stacking and cloaking/evasive mageblades have consistently yielded inferior results for several patches now.

technohic

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

It definitely could use a shorter CD but it is still a decent sustain set with the purge being just a bonus. I control it a little bit by having it back barred with sword and shield where I keep cloak and shadow image

Transmutation gives the same two lines of regen and a stronger defensive buff. It's better for brawly nightblades. Wyrd makes for some cloak escapes, but it's inconsistent otherwise. It could be a valuable set for more play styles of nightblade and magicka dk with a small rework.

The 5th piece of transmutation seems to be a loss for me when back barred. I'm not really healing with that bar being 1h shield or dual wield. I suppose if a HOT ticks at the right time.

Do you use entropy, path, or swallow soul? If so, Transmutation has 100% uptime with no exceptions. Also do you tend to brawl and take hits, or do you use shade and cloak and try to avoid upfront confrontation? If you're taking hits from enemies, Transmutation is god mode. If you're cloaking around and playing evasively, it's a waste.

I'm of the opinion that mageblade is strongest and most consistent when specced to brawl and take hits, using its hots as defense. Shield stacking and cloaking/evasive mageblades have consistently yielded inferior results for several patches now.

I run Rattlecage so no entropy. Swallow soul would give the tics though but generally I stay range, build up ultimate, shade, mark target, lotus fan, fear, soul harvest, shade out (if needed), swallow souls spam, impale. Cloak if I draw focus.

I basically Zerg surf and troll. It's about all I can come up with having less burst and face tank survivability of other classes. I just stay slippery

CavalryPK

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

It definitely could use a shorter CD but it is still a decent sustain set with the purge being just a bonus. I control it a little bit by having it back barred with sword and shield where I keep cloak and shadow image

Transmutation gives the same two lines of regen and a stronger defensive buff. It's better for brawly nightblades. Wyrd makes for some cloak escapes, but it's inconsistent otherwise. It could be a valuable set for more play styles of nightblade and magicka dk with a small rework.

The 5th piece of transmutation seems to be a loss for me when back barred. I'm not really healing with that bar being 1h shield or dual wield. I suppose if a HOT ticks at the right time.

Do you use entropy, path, or swallow soul? If so, Transmutation has 100% uptime with no exceptions. Also do you tend to brawl and take hits, or do you use shade and cloak and try to avoid upfront confrontation? If you're taking hits from enemies, Transmutation is god mode. If you're cloaking around and playing evasively, it's a waste.

I'm of the opinion that mageblade is strongest and most consistent when specced to brawl and take hits, using its hots as defense. Shield stacking and cloaking/evasive mageblades have consistently yielded inferior results for several patches now.

Yeh my transmutation has 100% in fight.