Leeching Strikes

utb99

Okay, you moved Stamina return to this skill, fine. But you failed to mention that leeching Strikes is a toggled skill that reduces your weapon and spell damage

Siphoning
Leeching Strikes (Siphoning Strikes morph): This morph now converts the ability into a Stamina ability and causes your Light and Heavy Attacks to restore Stamina

No mention of changing the skill.....

ZoS, plz change

Alp

I assume it will be like the other morph but just stamina, no more toggle or reduced damage. I sure hope so at least.

Pastas

I think that Leeching Srikes should not be changed to cost stamina. Now Siphoning Attacks is the only magicka skill that worths to be sloted in your bar for PVE as stamblade. Magicka builds have profit from stamina blocking and rolling, let stamina builds get some utility from magicka.

Subversus

Relentless and syphoning attacks now both cost stamina. Stamblades will effectively not have any more magicka drain except for Blur. Cool, guess it's time to slot purge.

Alp

Pastas wrote: »

I think that Leeching Srikes should not be changed to cost stamina. Now Siphoning Attacks is the only magicka skill that worths to be sloted in your bar for PVE as stamblade. Magicka builds have profit from stamina blocking and rolling, let stamina builds get some utility from magicka.

I agree.

Relentless focus costs 2436 stamina to get 10% extra stamina recovery and 8% extra damage for 20 seconds.
The wardens Bull Netch gives stamina over 25 seconds, 20% extra weapon damage over 27 seconds and has no cost.

It feels kinda off.

Some_Guy

Alp wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

I think that Leeching Srikes should not be changed to cost stamina. Now Siphoning Attacks is the only magicka skill that worths to be sloted in your bar for PVE as stamblade. Magicka builds have profit from stamina blocking and rolling, let stamina builds get some utility from magicka.

I agree.

Relentless focus costs 2436 stamina to get 10% extra stamina recovery and 8% extra damage for 20 seconds.
The wardens Bull Netch gives stamina over 25 seconds, 20% extra weapon damage over 27 seconds and has no cost.

It feels kinda off.

Similar effect with the Blue Betty morph: 27 seconds of 20% extra spell damage, 4k magicka back over 25 seconds, AND purges a negative effect. All for no cost.
Almost as if Zenimax was trying to convince us that Warden was better somehow....

olsborg

Alp wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

I think that Leeching Srikes should not be changed to cost stamina. Now Siphoning Attacks is the only magicka skill that worths to be sloted in your bar for PVE as stamblade. Magicka builds have profit from stamina blocking and rolling, let stamina builds get some utility from magicka.

I agree.

Relentless focus costs 2436 stamina to get 10% extra stamina recovery and 8% extra damage for 20 seconds.
The wardens Bull Netch gives stamina over 25 seconds, 20% extra weapon damage over 27 seconds and has no cost.

It feels kinda off.

Thats because nightblade class is f2p, but warden class costs money, if the class that cost money wasnt better then the free one, ZOS would make no money, mhm.

Some_Guy

olsborg wrote: »

Alp wrote: »

Pastas wrote: »

I think that Leeching Srikes should not be changed to cost stamina. Now Siphoning Attacks is the only magicka skill that worths to be sloted in your bar for PVE as stamblade. Magicka builds have profit from stamina blocking and rolling, let stamina builds get some utility from magicka.

I agree.

Relentless focus costs 2436 stamina to get 10% extra stamina recovery and 8% extra damage for 20 seconds.
The wardens Bull Netch gives stamina over 25 seconds, 20% extra weapon damage over 27 seconds and has no cost.

It feels kinda off.

Thats because nightblade class is f2p, but warden class costs money, if the class that cost money wasnt better then the free one, ZOS would make no money, mhm.

Totally agree, but now they're walking fine line of Pay2Win, which people have been jumping at an excuse to call everything Zenimax does.
But as far as business, strictly business, is concerned: making the "best" class one which costs money to play is just a good business move.

utb99

Warden is overall underwhelming

Some_Guy

This entire game is underwhelming at this point.

Alp

Can we keep this thread to the discussion and not talk about how underwhelmed you are and how much everything is pay 2 win?

thankyourat

The main reason I used siphoning attacks on my magblade was for the stamina return not so much the magicka return. The healing seems like a cool idea though I wonder if the heal will be viable in PvP

Seiryn_Aerith

Has anyone looked at it on PTS yet? The patch notes don't look that bad, but i have the stange feeling the numbers are just gonna be underwhelming. ZoS first point was to kill off endless sustain, what was mNB forte. I wouldn't be surprised about them applying that rule there aswell. I also can imagine they kept the health return on siphoning attacks low, because most mNB use funnel or other HoTs and didn't want to give it to strong recovery on the health aspect. All in all, I have mixed feelings.

Xvorg

To hell with spell and wpn dmg... those are just small numbers in a huge picture. Want the toogle back even with an increased wpn and spell dmg reduction...

arkansas_ESO

Seiryn_Aerith wrote: »

Has anyone looked at it on PTS yet? The patch notes don't look that bad, but i have the stange feeling the numbers are just gonna be underwhelming. ZoS first point was to kill off endless sustain, what was mNB forte. I wouldn't be surprised about them applying that rule there aswell. I also can imagine they kept the health return on siphoning attacks low, because most mNB use funnel or other HoTs and didn't want to give it to strong recovery on the health aspect. All in all, I have mixed feelings.

It's currently a 64% nerf in resources returned per light attack, along with a duration increase and a cost increase. It also doesn't restore both magicka and stamina anymore, which is huge for survivability for both stam and magic NB. The heal's value is 1.5k (less than Critical Surge), halved in PVP, and cannot crit.

Xvorg

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Seiryn_Aerith wrote: »

Has anyone looked at it on PTS yet? The patch notes don't look that bad, but i have the stange feeling the numbers are just gonna be underwhelming. ZoS first point was to kill off endless sustain, what was mNB forte. I wouldn't be surprised about them applying that rule there aswell. I also can imagine they kept the health return on siphoning attacks low, because most mNB use funnel or other HoTs and didn't want to give it to strong recovery on the health aspect. All in all, I have mixed feelings.

It's currently a 64% nerf in resources returned per light attack, along with a duration increase and a cost increase. It also doesn't restore both magicka and stamina anymore, which is huge for survivability for both stam and magic NB. The heal's value is 1.5k (less than Critical Surge), halved in PVP, and cannot crit.

Did you tested it on lit/healing staff heavy?

Does return res at the end of the atrack or at each tick?

arkansas_ESO

Xvorg wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Seiryn_Aerith wrote: »

Has anyone looked at it on PTS yet? The patch notes don't look that bad, but i have the stange feeling the numbers are just gonna be underwhelming. ZoS first point was to kill off endless sustain, what was mNB forte. I wouldn't be surprised about them applying that rule there aswell. I also can imagine they kept the health return on siphoning attacks low, because most mNB use funnel or other HoTs and didn't want to give it to strong recovery on the health aspect. All in all, I have mixed feelings.

It's currently a 64% nerf in resources returned per light attack, along with a duration increase and a cost increase. It also doesn't restore both magicka and stamina anymore, which is huge for survivability for both stam and magic NB. The heal's value is 1.5k (less than Critical Surge), halved in PVP, and cannot crit.

Did you tested it on lit/healing staff heavy?

Does return res at the end of the atrack or at each tick?

At the end of the attack

chaz

I like to ask this as it's more about sustain. The description says Heal for [x] amount of health over 20 seconds. So, lets say , I'm gonna give it a number, [x] = 1500 health. Is this flat 1500 health by the time 20 seconds is up, or is it 1500 health per second for 20 seconds. The later sounds wrong, but how does it really work.

If flat rate and in 20 seconds, that seems incredibly useless considering if PvP or even a well OP PvE monster, can certainly kill you in 3 to 5 seconds flat even with a full 20K health bar. So unless this ability stacks, yeah I'm actually using that word, leeching strike health restoration ability if, only flat rate then one would need to have other restorative items, weapon or armor to stack taking health regen during battle without using the aid of pots.

ccfeeling

Was a nerf .
These is no reason to use it .
Unlike dk , sorc , they have so many useful class skills .
U ask and u nerf , nb life .

Subversus

ccfeeling wrote: »

Was a nerf .
These is no reason to use it .
Unlike dk , sorc , they have so many useful class skills .
U ask and u nerf , nb life .

?????????????
You have no idea what you're talking about lmao

aeowulf

Leeching strikes is now a heal on light attack, there is no real resource return until 20secs have run.

It's not really very useful anymore I still slot it as on of my 5/12 class class skills, but I really don't know how long that will be for, i think it's just habit really. The tree needs a complete overhaul, including making the stamina return version cost magicka. It's now by far the worst sustain skill in the game. It is the only one that requies doing something 'active' other than just casting it (which is performing a light attack), and then the resource return is 100, which is far lower than any other resource return skill gives for just casting it.

The other morph is just as bad, shame as it used be good enough to enable NB sap tanks. These were also killed off with the Morrowind change.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@aeowulf you get resources back every time you recast it, linearly with the time you let it go for, so at 5 seconds to get 1k Stam/mag back, 10 you get 2k Stam/mag and so on. How is that not "real resource return"? I mean it is obviously not the 1k Stam and mag every light attack it once was but it is still pretty good and the heal is nothing to sneeze at either, with proper weaving it is upwards if 2.5k heals a sec, more then enough for most content and on a NB you will be needing to light atacking as much as you can anyway, see grim focus.


As for worse resourse management, repentance is so much worse, you only can repentance a body once and only one player can do it, so if there are 2 stamplars, one of them will always be out of luck and they will alwbe fighting over body's, that is the worst resourse skill, it actually makes having more then one of the same class in the group a bad thing.

aeowulf

you are aware it costs to cast right?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@aeowulf you get resources back every time you recast it, linearly with the time you let it go for, so at 5 seconds to get 1k Stam/mag back, 10 you get 2k Stam/mag and so on. How is that not "real resource return"? I mean it is obviously not the 1k Stam and mag every light attack it once was but it is still pretty good and the heal is nothing to sneeze at either, with proper weaving it is upwards if 2.5k heals a sec, more then enough for most content and on a NB you will be needing to light atacking as much as you can anyway, see grim focus.


As for worse resourse management, repentance is so much worse, you only can repentance a body once and only one player can do it, so if there are 2 stamplars, one of them will always be out of luck and they will alwbe fighting over body's, that is the worst resourse skill, it actually makes having more then one of the same class in the group a bad thing.

At around 5 seconds you break even due to the cost of casting it in the first place. It starts to increase after that. So you see zero resource return until about the 5 second mark. As an NB tank I do not want to be light attacking as much as possible and do not have grim focus slotted. I want to be keeping the group alive, by protecting it from the mobs. The heal portion means dropping block (OK fine) but the increased damaged taken often out weights the heal from the skill. It is not "pretty good"

In fact lets compare it to the netch, 150 ish per second, no cast cost, no light attack requirement. Don't even get me started on comparing it to DK or Sorc resource returns.

SodanTok

aeowulf wrote: »

you are aware it costs to cast right?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@aeowulf you get resources back every time you recast it, linearly with the time you let it go for, so at 5 seconds to get 1k Stam/mag back, 10 you get 2k Stam/mag and so on. How is that not "real resource return"? I mean it is obviously not the 1k Stam and mag every light attack it once was but it is still pretty good and the heal is nothing to sneeze at either, with proper weaving it is upwards if 2.5k heals a sec, more then enough for most content and on a NB you will be needing to light atacking as much as you can anyway, see grim focus.


As for worse resourse management, repentance is so much worse, you only can repentance a body once and only one player can do it, so if there are 2 stamplars, one of them will always be out of luck and they will alwbe fighting over body's, that is the worst resourse skill, it actually makes having more then one of the same class in the group a bad thing.

At around 5 seconds you break even due to the cost of casting it in the first place. It starts to increase after that. So you see zero resource return until about the 5 second mark. As an NB tank I do not want to be light attacking as much as possible and do not have grim focus slotted. I want to be keeping the group alive, by protecting it from the mobs. The heal portion means dropping block (OK fine) but the increased damaged taken often out weights the heal from the skill. It is not "pretty good"

In fact lets compare it to the netch, 150 ish per second, no cast cost, no light attack requirement. Don't even get me started on comparing it to DK or Sorc resource returns.

Lets do! Without any cost reduction, Leeching strikes costs 920 stamina and restores 4270 stamina after 20s. That is 3350 stamina every 20sec, making it 167/s gain. So even without light attacks, it is already better at stamina return that Netch. Obv, the netch has some own advantages (can cast it without any resources and gain them over the duration not at the end).
You may look at these advantages as some sort of preference over what leeching has, but saying leeching is worst sustain skill in the game, when it is literally the best sustain sustain skill in the game if you light attack regularly and still pretty good if you dont, is just wrong.

aeowulf

SodanTok wrote: »

Lets do! Without any cost reduction, Leeching strikes costs 920 stamina and restores 4270 stamina after 20s. That is 3350 stamina every 20sec, making it 167/s gain. So even without light attacks, it is already better at stamina return that Netch. Obv, the netch has some own advantages (can cast it without any resources and gain them over the duration not at the end).
You may look at these advantages as some sort of preference over what leeching has, but saying leeching is worst sustain skill in the game, when it is literally the best sustain sustain skill in the game if you light attack regularly and still pretty good if you dont, is just wrong.

Paper maths, you might about perfect that on a target dummy if you are lucky but the real world does not work like that.

If you get Leeching misstimed by ONE second either way, it's efficeincy drops to around 156-159/s gain depending on which way you misstime it. Miss time it by more and it gets even worse. Tanks do not have the luxury of perfected rotations, we have to react to mobs. A stamblade will also never get it bang on either, they need to dodge out of the way of red stuff too. You also have to predict you will need it 20 seconds in advance, there's a good chance that's not even going to be the same fight you are on.

Netch is 4029/25 secs = 161/s no more no less, doesn't matter if you refresh early or late.

Saying it's the worst may of been a bit harsh, I will retract that generalisation. I should of been more specific wrt use. Generally speaking Repentence is worse & Stamblades might find leeching useful as it fits in nicely with their rotation, I do slot it for vMA. But for the block style tanks that are currently the go to requirement for groups, Leeching is useless, and in fact will be a detriment for the first 5 secs.

Lexxypwns

Lol, the only issue with leeching/siphoning is that the heal scales with a specific crit(weapon/spell respectively) rather than taking advantage of the higher number. This means a mageblade either takes it for the extra stam sustai (my stam bar stays “full” as long as I stay aggressive) or siphoning for the magika sustain(it’s effectively cost reduction since you use magika every GCD, with a burst return at the end)) and superior healing. But then, that’s a meaningful build decision so it’s probably ok

SodanTok

aeowulf wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Lets do! Without any cost reduction, Leeching strikes costs 920 stamina and restores 4270 stamina after 20s. That is 3350 stamina every 20sec, making it 167/s gain. So even without light attacks, it is already better at stamina return that Netch. Obv, the netch has some own advantages (can cast it without any resources and gain them over the duration not at the end).
You may look at these advantages as some sort of preference over what leeching has, but saying leeching is worst sustain skill in the game, when it is literally the best sustain sustain skill in the game if you light attack regularly and still pretty good if you dont, is just wrong.

Paper maths, you might about perfect that on a target dummy if you are lucky but the real world does not work like that.

If you get Leeching misstimed by ONE second either way, it's efficeincy drops to around 156-159/s gain depending on which way you misstime it. Miss time it by more and it gets even worse. Tanks do not have the luxury of perfected rotations, we have to react to mobs. A stamblade will also never get it bang on either, they need to dodge out of the way of red stuff too. You also have to predict you will need it 20 seconds in advance, there's a good chance that's not even going to be the same fight you are on.

Netch is 4029/25 secs = 161/s no more no less, doesn't matter if you refresh early or late.

Saying it's the worst may of been a bit harsh, I will retract that generalisation. I should of been more specific wrt use. Generally speaking Repentence is worse & Stamblades might find leeching useful as it fits in nicely with their rotation, I do slot it for vMA. But for the block style tanks that are currently the go to requirement for groups, Leeching is useless, and in fact will be a detriment for the first 5 secs.

Those are hardly good arguments against it. Recasting something too late always costs efficiency. Recasting something too early too. You are only making excuses that some ability on tanking designed class is slightly better for your tanking needs on not tanking designed class. Slightly being the important part. Because it literally matters only if you somehow feel need to recast leeching many seconds earlier.

That stamablade part is stupid, but even if you feel need to spend dodge rolling half of the 20s cast, it will be superior. And not knowing you will need resources 20s before is supposed to mean what? You always need resources. There is absolutely no reason not to have leeching constantly on.

You keep throwing words like useless or worst or smth, but in the end Leeching strikes is just slightly worse than Netch if you struggle recasting it on time and never do any light attack and play block tank. Sounds to me the ability is pretty OP if you do everything against utilizing its full potential and it is still nearly as good as Warden resource ability on its full potential on any build.

aeowulf

SodanTok wrote: »

Those are hardly good arguments against it. Recasting something too late always costs efficiency. Recasting something too early too. You are only making excuses that some ability on tanking designed class is slightly better for your tanking needs on not tanking designed class. Slightly being the important part. Because it literally matters only if you somehow feel need to recast leeching many seconds earlier.

That stamablade part is stupid, but even if you feel need to spend dodge rolling half of the 20s cast, it will be superior. And not knowing you will need resources 20s before is supposed to mean what? You always need resources. There is absolutely no reason not to have leeching constantly on.

You keep throwing words like useless or worst or smth, but in the end Leeching strikes is just slightly worse than Netch if you struggle recasting it on time and never do any light attack and play block tank. Sounds to me the ability is pretty OP if you do everything against utilizing its full potential and it is still nearly as good as Warden resource ability on its full potential on any build.

I retracted that generalisation, did you not read that?

The maths have shown they are comparable either way, if leeching is left to run to it's full duration. Each light attack squeezed in would bring around 2/3sec flexibility on the accuracy of the recast. Then it's all a bit irrelevant as we'd need to look at class skill costs and the amount of draw that is required to keep everything up. And yes I am annoyed about the Morrowind change to this skill as it pretty much removed the minimal amount of viability NB tanks had. And I can't wait for the skill trees to be reworked for them, into tank, heal, dps tree's.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the usefulness of this skill, but feel free to go look at ANY NB main tank build since morrowind, every single one features a resource return set - it's now a 100% requirement for this class in this role. There is only one NB tank build I know of that does not have one, and that's for a trial off tank and is loaded up with SPC instead as that benefits the raid more. They do all use one of the leeching skills though, as at the end of the day, there is a return.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@AeoWulf Repentance is still worse resourse management, I literally just got kicked from a vwgt on my stamplar group cuase the other dps was a stamplar as well. Have you ever been kicked for using leeching strikes?

Your arguments are especially funny now that they are changing the water merciless resolve works, you will not lose your light and heavy attacks stacks for the bow if you need to recast it and are in combat yet. Makes your class much easier to play. Meanwhile templars still have to play Highlander with repentance.

aeowulf

Yeah that's a pretty bad skill too, atleast it gives 15% stamina regen... It's actualy comparable to combining two NB passives - one gives 15% regen and the other gives resource back if you've damaged a mob with an assasination skill within 2 seconds of it dieing. Was better when you could harvest 'pets' from the monster sets. Atleast Templars get 4% reduced cost on mag/stam/ulti skills which is kinda nice (saves 160 on a 4k skill). But as mentioned above the whole resource management issue is somewhat moot unless you look at the costs of skills. i.e. if a class has 50% better resource management but the skills are twice the price, they are in an overall worse position.

And I never slotted mercilss resolve - i played NB tank, so the changes to that are irrelevant from a NB tank perspective. They are useful to me currently as i'm not a 40k+ DPS, and my rotation isn't perfect. When I mess up (and I do) it should theoretically hurt less.

Rotations existing show this game is getting too predictable. I can't rememebr playing an MMO prior to ESO where rotations existed, but this is also the first time i've tried DPS (historically always tank)

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@aeowulf if you are talking about repentance in your first paragraph, the 15% regen comment, you are wrong, it is only 10% and it is a minor buff. Meaning that repentance does not stack with the same 10% minor buffs you get from other sources, meanwhile, nbs have a stright 15% regen buff to all from a passive, that does not need to have any skill slotted, you get that 15% all the time and this 15% stacks with the minor regen buffs that do not stack with repentance. So I have no idea what you are on about there.

It does not matter you are a tank to me. If a templar tank was in the group I was, they would have been kicked as well. Repentance is literally the only way a templar can get stam back without dropping block in class. If there are two Stam dps temps or a tank and stam dps in the group, they are fighting over body's. Please tell answer me my question, have you ever been kicked for using leeching strikes? No you have not. This by default makes templar Stam resourse management worse, because you can't manage Stam if you can't play, lol.

They changed merciless resolve for players like you and honestly me, the ones that don't have a perfect rotation, it makes the skill easier to use. Raiseing the floor if you will. My point about this is that they made your class easier to play but templars are still fighting over body's to play. Templar is still hard to play but they are making nbs easier even though nbs outclass temps in the DPS they can do. Tell me how that makes sense


Nightblades have the cheapest skills in the game, so they do not get as much cost reduction. Again no idea what you are on about.


How else would dps work if there was not a best way to apply the damage you do? That what a rotation is, simply the best order to apply damaging skills to maximize the damage they do in the lowest amount of time.