Proposed alternative to the Siphoning Attacks / Leeching Strikes changes, and why:

Epicasballs

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I was worried about the benefits of using the skill anymore... you'd need to land enough attacks to cover the cost or use it for the small heal but maglades never had a self heal issue IMO.

kadar

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I wanted to link to Asmael's recent write up of Stamina DPS on the PTS (and live) as I think his summary of Stamina NB DPS has relevance to this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/337713/pve-stamina-dds-analysis-only-existing-classes/p1

The devs recently responded with helpful clarifying information concerning the Templar sustain nerfs, here's hoping Nightblades can get some clarification as well! The stated purpose of the Siphoning attacks change was to improve NB survivability and reduce it's sustain.

How does the change increase NB survivability vs. other class or armor options? Can the now meager resource return be considered useful? I'm at work so I don't have time atm to full suss out these thoughts, but that's the gist of it-- will revisit thread later, thank you.

NightbladeMechanics

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

The_Outsider wrote: »

I wanted to link to Asmael's recent write up of Stamina DPS on the PTS (and live) as I think his summary of Stamina NB DPS has relevance to this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/337713/pve-stamina-dds-analysis-only-existing-classes/p1

The devs recently responded with helpful clarifying information concerning the Templar sustain nerfs, here's hoping Nightblades can get some clarification as well! The stated purpose of the Siphoning attacks change was to improve NB survivability and reduce it's sustain.

How does the change increase NB survivability vs. other class or armor options? Can the now meager resource return be considered useful? I'm at work so I don't have time atm to full suss out these thoughts, but that's the gist of it-- will revisit thread later, thank you.

My PTS play on mageblade has yielded lower survivability even in full sustain builds because I lack stamina sustain, even using my Amber Plasm and some stam regen glyphs. Leeching Strikes was insufficient for stamina sustain, and Siphoning Strikes doesn't give me much magicka sustain because the cost is too high compared to the return. The heals are noticeable, but mageblade has never lacked heals over time.

If I lose stam sustain from Siphoning Attacks, I must use tristat food for the larger stamina pool instead of Witchmother's. Losing Witchmother's regen means I have to build heavy sustain sets. I'm fine with that, but then my fights don't feel like my sustain is tied to aggression and momentum, which I really like about how mageblade works on live.

CavalryPK

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

I wanted to link to Asmael's recent write up of Stamina DPS on the PTS (and live) as I think his summary of Stamina NB DPS has relevance to this thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/337713/pve-stamina-dds-analysis-only-existing-classes/p1

The devs recently responded with helpful clarifying information concerning the Templar sustain nerfs, here's hoping Nightblades can get some clarification as well! The stated purpose of the Siphoning attacks change was to improve NB survivability and reduce it's sustain.

How does the change increase NB survivability vs. other class or armor options? Can the now meager resource return be considered useful? I'm at work so I don't have time atm to full suss out these thoughts, but that's the gist of it-- will revisit thread later, thank you.

My PTS play on mageblade has yielded lower survivability even in full sustain builds because I lack stamina sustain, even using my Amber Plasm and some stam regen glyphs. Leeching Strikes was insufficient for stamina sustain, and Siphoning Strikes doesn't give me much magicka sustain because the cost is too high compared to the return. The heals are noticeable, but mageblade has never lacked heals over time.

If I lose stam sustain from Siphoning Attacks, I must use tristat food for the larger stamina pool instead of Witchmother's. Losing Witchmother's regen means I have to build heavy sustain sets. I'm fine with that, but then my fights don't feel like my sustain is tied to aggression and momentum, which I really like about how mageblade works on live.

Did you have problems killing people assuming your sustain drops your over all damage potential.

Moncho11

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I feel like this nerf is punishing skilled gameplay. Siphoning attacks requires actual LA weaving and thus allows nightblades to go with more offensive sets. Even then they are underperforming in PVE. In pvp it requires actually hitting the target and again you already nerfed stealth damage. This really feels like a kick in the balls to a class that's already underperforming.

Draqone

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

How about making it somewhat dark-deal-ish?

Siphoning Attacks:
costs MAGICKA
lasts 20 seconds
Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1539 health and restore 396 STAMINA.

Leeching Strikes:
costs STAMINA
lasts 20 seconds
Your light and heavy attacks heal you for 1539 health and restore 396 MAGICKA.

t3hdubzy

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Siphoning strikes or other morphs should be like the siphon from resto bar. Not requiring any attacks to make it work, and should cost the oppisite resource thats gained, or should at very least restore double the cost over the amount of time say 20 seconds?

Have health regains dependent on attacks. This allows to solve for both issues and uses both old and new changes.

Izaki

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

What's really stupid is this:

Surge:
- Major Brutality
- 3k Heal on Crits (can crit)

Leeching/Siphoning:
- 350 sta/mag on light and heavy attacks
- 1.5k Heal on light attacks (can't crit)

So lets see. Surge has a limiting factor to its heals: crits. 1 second cooldown, and its often proc'ed off cooldown. Offers roughly the same healing per second as Vigor. Can proc in AoE situations.

Leeching and Siphoning also have a limiting factor to their heals: only work on light and heavy attacks. The cooldown on the heal is basically the GCD on light and heavy attacks. This also means that if you take the time to charge a heavy attack, you aren't really rewarded for it as its about 1.5 sec longer than a light attack, but still heals for the same amount. Can't proc in AoE situations unless you weave light attacks between your Steel Tornado or Sap Essence (which you should). But basically, the heal from this ability is HEAVILY dependant on the lag and perfect weaving. So here's a problem: the heal is two times less effective than Crit Surge, its more restricted on top of that and it can't even crit. Now you could argue that the sustain SA/LS offers outweighs the crappy healing potential, but does it outweigh Major Brutality? No. This is also a heal that requires you to have a target, something that in PvP can not always happen, generally you need healing while pressured, thus LOSing or kiting, which means that you don't have a target.

I mean I love Sorcs... But at this point these two skills are similar and comparable in functionality, but they are not comparable in practice. I think the whole idea of making this skill a heal is pretty stupid for both magblades (who already have access to lots of HoTs) and for stamblades (who don't have any healing aside from Vigor and Rally, but rely on being evasive to survive, thus will not fully benefit, if at all, from this ability). In PvE, its not a measly HoT that will save you from one shots, its a shield, so it doesn't address that issue at all. So stamblades, had at least one thing going for them in PvE: sustain. Now they don't have sustain and they still don't have anything worthy for survivability. I'm fairly confident that the stamina from Siphoning Attacks (on live) serves more than the healing (on PTS) in heated situations in Trials, due to the fact that the stamina sustain allows you to block and dodge more and have less chances of running out of stamina, thus not being able to block, thus dying to a mechanic.

From a stamblade perspective, when you're in "tricky situation", blocking or dodging can actually save you (in PvP and PvE), while light attacking for a 1.5k heal that can't crit isn't very likely to do that job.
In PvP, Lets face it, Vigor and Rally are doing a great job at keeping your health topped up while fighting, so an extra HoT isn't really what is needed, because keeping health topped up was never an issue. The issue was healing back to full and surviving under pressure, maybe with some healing debuffs applied and heavy incoming damage. So the logical counter and buff to the issue is a healing buff. Light attacks won't magically save you from those situations, because in those situations you're not in the position to actually pull off light attacks. But 12% extra healing done or received, would already partially counter a healing debuff if there is one, and it would in general just buff your healing (duuuh) to the point where you can actually take a few hits without having to go on the complete defensive.
IMHO, extra healing or another form of defense is needed for the stamblade. But not through this particular ability, because light and heavy attacks aren't a reliable source of healing in situations where you really need it.

Strider_Roshin

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

My proposal:
Leeching Strikes: No cost, light attacks restore 1500 health, and 400 stamina; heavy attacks restore double of each.

Siphoning Attacks: No cost, light attacks restore 400 stamina, and magicka; heavy attacks restore double of each.

Strider_Roshin

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Or if you really want to make Leeching attractive without making it better for resource management, what do you think of this idea?

Leeching Strikes: Costs 2020 stamina
Light attacks deal 1500 Oblivion damage (reduced by battle spirit), Oblivion Damage done gets returned to the player as health. Light attacks also restore 400 stamina. Heavy attacks deal 3k Oblivion Damage, and restore 800 stamina.

Strider_Roshin

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Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Or if you really want to make Leeching attractive without making it better for resource management, what do you think of this idea?

Leeching Strikes: Costs 2020 stamina
Light attacks deal 1500 Oblivion damage (reduced by battle spirit), Oblivion Damage done gets returned to the player as health. Light attacks also restore 400 stamina. Heavy attacks deal 3k Oblivion Damage, and restore 800 stamina.

This change will actually make it worth slotting in PvE.

bubbygink

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NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

My PTS play on mageblade has yielded lower survivability even in full sustain builds because I lack stamina sustain, even using my Amber Plasm and some stam regen glyphs. Leeching Strikes was insufficient for stamina sustain, and Siphoning Strikes doesn't give me much magicka sustain because the cost is too high compared to the return. The heals are noticeable, but mageblade has never lacked heals over time.

If I lose stam sustain from Siphoning Attacks, I must use tristat food for the larger stamina pool instead of Witchmother's. Losing Witchmother's regen means I have to build heavy sustain sets. I'm fine with that, but then my fights don't feel like my sustain is tied to aggression and momentum, which I really like about how mageblade works on live.

@NightbladeMechanics Thanks for the update on PTS performance for all us console players who don't have access. Looks like the issues are pretty much what many of us predicted throughout this thread and elsewhere on forums - lower survivability due to dropped stam sustain, being forced into tristat food which further exacerbates our magicka sustain nerf, and the general crippling of the Mageblade's core gameplay style.

I love that ZoS added developer comments to patch notes but the one regarding siphoning strikes truly concerns me:

This is a significant reduction to the Magicka and Stamina restored by these abilities, but the addition of Health restore should give Nightblades more healing to improve their survivability.

Anybody who has consistently played a Magblade in PvP knows that this change does not improve surviability - it is very apparent without the need for testing. If the change is being made exclusively to be an all around nerf to sustain then fine, but just say it - "we decided siphoning strikes provided too much sustain and it needed a nerf" - just leave it at that. But if ZoS truly believes they are adding survivability to this skill (with the removal of stam restore and addition of health restore) then I really do have to wonder how much, if at all, any of them have played Magblade in PvP.

I am on board with the general direction ZoS is taking regarding sustain - I think it is way too easy in PvP and PvE right now. And to fit this direction, I certainly understand that strong class sustain mechanics like siphoning attacks need a nerf (and so does dark conversion/deal but that's for another thread). But just nerf the values like many other mechanic changes, e.g. battle roar's change to be equivalent to having 26k max stats. Why totally ruin a core skill? Is it really the notion that ZoS actually believes switching out stamina return for health return increases Magblade's surviability? Did they truly believe that was a buff or a "good" change? Or, if it is because ZoS believed the duel stat return is too strong then why isn't that said in the developer's note over the whole "it is to increase survivability" BS and why have other class regen mechanics such as the aforementioned battle roar been able to keep their duel (and actually tri) restore?

Ultimately, the nerf simply doesn't make sense, especially when taking the developer's comments into account. I really hope ZoS responds in this thread to better explain the thought process behind this change to a core mechanic of the nightblade class. Is the developer's comment about "to increase survivability" just lip service to make us feel better about taking our nerf? Or, if ZoS actually believes that dropping stam for health restore really is an increase to survivability, I would like to hear the reasoning and testing behind this belief. Is ZoS aware how big of a change this is to the nightblade class's playstyle and, if so, why is this change necessary over something like simply nerfing the values siphoning attacks restored? Hopefully we will get some answers in this thread or in today's patch notes.

beatonthis

g'day

i really like the idea of having 1 morph pure sustain/resource regen, and the other giving your light/heavy attacks a DPS boost.

Would also like to see it as a group wide buff, similar to the templars aoe minor magicka steal (resoring/radiant aura), so would be something like:

base: light/heavy attacks heal and regen stam+mag

1st morph: light/heavy attacks heal and regen stam+mag, applies minior magicka steal and minor stamina steal in a 10m radius for 10s (reduced radius and duration compared to templar as a tradeoff for applying both debuffs)

2nd morph: light/heavy attacks no longer heal or regen mag+stam, instead deal 1500 oblivion dmg for x seconds

NightbladeMechanics

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

@bubbygink I genuinely wonder if any dev plays mageblade remotely competently.

@beatonthis I'd be proud to have Leeching Strikes as the first class source of minor staminasteal in the game. That would be very interesting and give mageblade a lot of utility. If either Leeching or Siphoning applies a resource steal debuff, that debuff needs to have a very short duration intended to be procced with constant attacks.

olsborg

Stamina steal would be cool, Id rly like more utility like minor mending or minor intellect etc.

aeowulf

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

I think leeching would work in it's current form if it was activated when hit but had an ICD of 1 seconds. That way there is a chance it will actually perform in a way that is likely to net stamina gains. It would also make NB more tanky. I would also like to see siphoning give both resources if it's tied to a light attack, baring in mind that that is an action and performing that takes you away from performing any other action, casting, blocking or dodging.

Currently it's looking like this:
a) 2295 stamina for up to 20 x +356 stamina (+ a load of health) on a light/heavy attack
b) 2700 magicka for up to 20 x +356 magicka (+ a load of health) on a light/heavy attack

you can see the obvious stamina/magicka weighting has not been applied to the amount returned either.

comparing to Sorc & DK:

sorcs :
get a skill that trades either
a)3240 magicka for 4696 stamina (+over 8k health) or
b)2431 stamina for 4696 magicka (+over 8k health)

dk:
they just get 46 of everything per point in ultimate
and as a passive 990 stamina every time an earthen heart ability is cast.

assuming a skill cast or light attack take roughly 1 second, it that means that:
a NB can currently restore up to 356 stamina or magicka per second
a DK can restore up to 990 stamina per second + 46 per point in ultimate generated
a sorc can restore up to 4696 magicka or stamina per second (although I understand this has an additional delay of 0.2 seconds now?)

it's weighted heavily in the direction of sorcs.

looking at those numbers i'm not even sure we were the masters of sustain prior to the patch...

Templars I don't know so well, I avoid them as my partner plays one and she hates me theorycrafting her toon...

arkansas_ESO

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ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nightblade

• Shadow
  • Shadow Barrier: Increased this passive ability’s base duration of Major Ward and Major Resolve to 3/6 seconds from 2/4 seconds.
    Developer Comments:
    Increasing the duration of this passive’s bonuses will improve the overall survivability of Nightblades. Heavy Armor, tank-focused Nightblades in particular should have a much smoother time maintaining nearly consistent uptime on these buffs with a combinations of abilities such as Refreshing Path or Summon Shades.

• Siphoning
  • Siphoning Strikes: Fixed an issue where the heal from this ability and its morphs could not critically strike.

From the latest incremental's patch notes.

Strider_Roshin

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nightblade

• Shadow
  • Shadow Barrier: Increased this passive ability’s base duration of Major Ward and Major Resolve to 3/6 seconds from 2/4 seconds.
    Developer Comments:
    Increasing the duration of this passive’s bonuses will improve the overall survivability of Nightblades. Heavy Armor, tank-focused Nightblades in particular should have a much smoother time maintaining nearly consistent uptime on these buffs with a combinations of abilities such as Refreshing Path or Summon Shades.

• Siphoning
  • Siphoning Strikes: Fixed an issue where the heal from this ability and its morphs could not critically strike.

From the latest incremental's patch notes.

I'm glad the turd is shinier.

Strider_Roshin

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

The Shadow Barrier change is nice though. They need to give Minor Protection from Dark Cloak the same treatment IMO

kadar

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

The Shadow Barrier change is nice though. They need to give Minor Protection from Dark Cloak the same treatment IMO

/Agree

Izaki

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

aeowulf wrote: »

I think leeching would work in it's current form if it was activated when hit but had an ICD of 1 seconds. That way there is a chance it will actually perform in a way that is likely to net stamina gains. It would also make NB more tanky. I would also like to see siphoning give both resources if it's tied to a light attack, baring in mind that that is an action and performing that takes you away from performing any other action, casting, blocking or dodging.

Currently it's looking like this:
a) 2295 stamina for up to 20 x +356 stamina (+ a load of health) on a light/heavy attack
b) 2700 magicka for up to 20 x +356 magicka (+ a load of health) on a light/heavy attack

you can see the obvious stamina/magicka weighting has not been applied to the amount returned either.

comparing to Sorc & DK:

sorcs :
get a skill that trades either
a)3240 magicka for 4696 stamina (+over 8k health) or
b)2431 stamina for 4696 magicka (+over 8k health)

dk:
they just get 46 of everything per point in ultimate
and as a passive 990 stamina every time an earthen heart ability is cast.

assuming a skill cast or light attack take roughly 1 second, it that means that:
a NB can currently restore up to 356 stamina or magicka per second
a DK can restore up to 990 stamina per second + 46 per point in ultimate generated
a sorc can restore up to 4696 magicka or stamina per second (although I understand this has an additional delay of 0.2 seconds now?)

it's weighted heavily in the direction of sorcs.

looking at those numbers i'm not even sure we were the masters of sustain prior to the patch...

Templars I don't know so well, I avoid them as my partner plays one and she hates me theorycrafting her toon...

There are differences though...

Siphoning restore 356 mag or stam per second for 20 seconds (1 cast for 20 seconds)
Dark Deal restores 4696 mag or stam per cast per second that is also interruptable.
DKs restore 990 stam per second but that's a passive, meaning that they also gaing whatever other effect of the ability (major mending from igneous, disorient from fossilize, massive snare and AoE from ash cloud, major damage buffs from molten). Same thing for Battle Roar, they are all secondary effects.

These skills aren't really comparable at all... They don't have the same basic functionalities, they don't restore resources the same way, one is a passive buff and another is an active skill that has lots of counterplay.

Moncho11

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

How about if casting it you also get Major Fortitude. The the morphed versions could major endurance and intellect. With this maybe it's worth casting with some stam recory enchants and would keep the spirit of the skill without being too strong since it does cost resources to use unlike the Warden netch.

crobarXIII

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IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

There are differences though...

Siphoning CAN restore 356 mag or stam per second for 20 seconds (1 cast for 20 seconds)
Dark Deal restores 4696 mag or stam per cast per second that is also interruptable.
DKs restore 990 stam per second but that's a passive, meaning that they also gaing whatever other effect of the ability (major mending from igneous, disorient from fossilize, massive snare and AoE from ash cloud, major damage buffs from molten). Same thing for Battle Roar, they are all secondary effects.

These skills aren't really comparable at all... They don't have the same basic functionalities, they don't restore resources the same way, one is a passive buff and another is an active skill that has lots of counterplay.

Fixed it

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

Let me say what no ones is willing to say the resource management with this skill was taken away and replaced with a subpar health that gives next to nothing back.

aeowulf

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

There are differences though...

Siphoning restore 356 mag or stam per second for 20 seconds (1 cast for 20 seconds)
Dark Deal restores 4696 mag or stam per cast per second that is also interruptable.
DKs restore 990 stam per second but that's a passive, meaning that they also gaing whatever other effect of the ability (major mending from igneous, disorient from fossilize, massive snare and AoE from ash cloud, major damage buffs from molten). Same thing for Battle Roar, they are all secondary effects.

These skills aren't really comparable at all... They don't have the same basic functionalities, they don't restore resources the same way, one is a passive buff and another is an active skill that has lots of counterplay.

It's difficult to compare yes and siphoning attacks is an active skill which requires something actively done to make it 'tick' & any active skills should be more powerful than any passive. however it does highlight how much better the sorc skill is.

i'd still like a tanky version where resources are restored upon being hit though...

Izaki

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

aeowulf wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

There are differences though...

Siphoning restore 356 mag or stam per second for 20 seconds (1 cast for 20 seconds)
Dark Deal restores 4696 mag or stam per cast per second that is also interruptable.
DKs restore 990 stam per second but that's a passive, meaning that they also gaing whatever other effect of the ability (major mending from igneous, disorient from fossilize, massive snare and AoE from ash cloud, major damage buffs from molten). Same thing for Battle Roar, they are all secondary effects.

These skills aren't really comparable at all... They don't have the same basic functionalities, they don't restore resources the same way, one is a passive buff and another is an active skill that has lots of counterplay.

It's difficult to compare yes and siphoning attacks is an active skill which requires something actively done to make it 'tick' & any active skills should be more powerful than any passive. however it does highlight how much better the sorc skill is.

i'd still like a tanky version where resources are restored upon being hit though...

Except that Siphoning Attacks doesn't oblige you to stop DPS, thus it doesn't stop your momentum in PvP, and it doesn't ruin your parse in PvE. There's a world of difference between the two skills, and Siphoning is the better one for sure. Dark Deals isn't nearly as amazing as everyone seems to think. You have to wear heavy to make it work, you have to constantly drop pressure/combat to regain resources. I already had to Dark Deal a lot with 800 recovery, and by a lot I mean, A LOT. Literally after every burst attempt, I'd have to stop whatever I'm doing and Dark Deal, so that my resources stay full (because if you Dark Deal too late you're dead). This patch with the cost reduction, I doubt that Dark Deal spam will be sustainable with 50% less magicka regen from Constitution and you will need to spam Dark Deal more due to the removal of cost reduction.

bubbygink

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Except that Siphoning Attacks doesn't oblige you to stop DPS, thus it doesn't stop your momentum in PvP, and it doesn't ruin your parse in PvE. There's a world of difference between the two skills, and Siphoning is the better one for sure. Dark Deals isn't nearly as amazing as everyone seems to think. You have to wear heavy to make it work, you have to constantly drop pressure/combat to regain resources. I already had to Dark Deal a lot with 800 recovery, and by a lot I mean, A LOT. Literally after every burst attempt, I'd have to stop whatever I'm doing and Dark Deal, so that my resources stay full (because if you Dark Deal too late you're dead). This patch with the cost reduction, I doubt that Dark Deal spam will be sustainable with 50% less magicka regen from Constitution and you will need to spam Dark Deal more due to the removal of cost reduction.

Hahahaha "Dark Deal isn't that amazing" followed by "can you believe I had to Dark Deal so much with a WHOPPING 800 recovery!" You got to be flipping kidding me. You sustained with 800 recovery, that is practically the minimum you can have and you sustained with Dark Deal alone. There is a reason you'll see most magblades advocate using Witchmothers Potent Brew: because siphoning attacks can't sustain us with 800 freaking recovery, we need quite a bit more.

I main a magblade and the other class I play the most by far in both PvP and PvE is my stam sorc. Dark Deal is easily the most OP sustain skill in the game. I just slap on 5 piece black rose and sustain totally fine with 650 recovery and Dark Deal. Judging by your above comment "Siphoning attacks restores X magicka per second" I'm guessing you have never even seriously tried out a magblade in PvP because that statement is extremely flawed. I suggest you try it out with 800 magicka recovery and see if you can sustain.

But next patch, Siphoning Attacks will barely be worth slotting (many are advocating for Ele Drain over Siphoning Attacks) while Dark Deal is not even being touched. The CP changes will effect all of us but stam sorcs get to keep their amazing sustain skill while magblades essentially lose theirs. So when you say you'll have to *gasp* "spam Dark Deal more" it makes my eyes roll. Because, as you said, all you'll have to do is just spam your OP sustain skill more while us magblades are just SOL with our magicka AND stamina sustain - if we run out of either one of the two resources we just die, we don't get to "spam Dark Deal more." Or maybe you'll have to actually run more than 800 recovery now - the horror!!! It is honestly ludicrous to argue that magblades will have better sustain next patch that stam sorcs.

NightbladeMechanics

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

@bubbygink I was just writing a post comparing Siphoning to ele drain... I am going to be genuinely butthurt if I have to slot ele drain instead of siphoning just to sustain and have to give up mark. I freakin love mark.

Izaki

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

bubbygink wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Except that Siphoning Attacks doesn't oblige you to stop DPS, thus it doesn't stop your momentum in PvP, and it doesn't ruin your parse in PvE. There's a world of difference between the two skills, and Siphoning is the better one for sure. Dark Deals isn't nearly as amazing as everyone seems to think. You have to wear heavy to make it work, you have to constantly drop pressure/combat to regain resources. I already had to Dark Deal a lot with 800 recovery, and by a lot I mean, A LOT. Literally after every burst attempt, I'd have to stop whatever I'm doing and Dark Deal, so that my resources stay full (because if you Dark Deal too late you're dead). This patch with the cost reduction, I doubt that Dark Deal spam will be sustainable with 50% less magicka regen from Constitution and you will need to spam Dark Deal more due to the removal of cost reduction.

Hahahaha "Dark Deal isn't that amazing" followed by "can you believe I had to Dark Deal so much with a WHOPPING 800 recovery!" You got to be flipping kidding me. You sustained with 800 recovery, that is practically the minimum you can have and you sustained with Dark Deal alone. There is a reason you'll see most magblades advocate using Witchmothers Potent Brew: because siphoning attacks can't sustain us with 800 freaking recovery, we need quite a bit more.

I main a magblade and the other class I play the most by far in both PvP and PvE is my stam sorc. Dark Deal is easily the most OP sustain skill in the game. I just slap on 5 piece black rose and sustain totally fine with 650 recovery and Dark Deal. Judging by your above comment "Siphoning attacks restores X magicka per second" I'm guessing you have never even seriously tried out a magblade in PvP because that statement is extremely flawed. I suggest you try it out with 800 magicka recovery and see if you can sustain.

But next patch, Siphoning Attacks will barely be worth slotting (many are advocating for Ele Drain over Siphoning Attacks) while Dark Deal is not even being touched. The CP changes will effect all of us but stam sorcs get to keep their amazing sustain skill while magblades essentially lose theirs. So when you say you'll have to *gasp* "spam Dark Deal more" it makes my eyes roll. Because, as you said, all you'll have to do is just spam your OP sustain skill more while us magblades are just SOL with our magicka AND stamina sustain - if we run out of either one of the two resources we just die, we don't get to "spam Dark Deal more." Or maybe you'll have to actually run more than 800 recovery now - the horror!!! It is honestly ludicrous to argue that magblades will have better sustain next patch that stam sorcs.

??? Doesn't change the fact that the skills work very differently and that the mechanics of Siphoning Attacks allow you to keep applying pressure while keeping resources in check. So yeah, in PvE, Siphoning Attacks is by far the best sustain skill in the game. You can't compare a magblade to a stamsorc because the fundamental mechanics of the two specs are completely different. But here you are comparing magblades (apples) to stam sorcs (oranges). At least compare magblades to mag sorcs, as both are magicka classes.

Btw on my DK, I sustain with 700 recovery. Except that on my DK I also gain Major Mending and I'm not locked in a channel that is interruptable by any magicka sorc (and there are a lot of those). In fact, while I'm bursting I'm restoring resources too. What's so special about Dark Deal? Sustaining with no recovery isn't something inherent to a stamsorc. Every class can pull it off in heavy armor. The whole point of running heavy is to not have to run recovery genius. So yeah, compared to other existing resource management mechanics on the live server, Dark Deal isn't the only one that allows for running virtually no recovery. In PvE, its by far the least appealing, because it costs you DPS. You can even build a heavy armor stamblade that relies on solely Siphoning and Heavy attacks to sustain.

Not gonna bother with the "do you even NB?" part because I main a stamblade, which is obviously why I'm in this thread in the first place.

I wasn't saying I'll have to *gasp* spam Dark Deal more (L2Read), I was saying that reliance on Dark Deal will be higher due to the cost reduction removal, but the magicka sustain from constitution is also gone, which means that you essentially will only be able to Dark Deal half as much as you can now, but you will need more than that. So that is pretty much the end of sustaining with 800 recovery. But I'm guessing you're too busy hating on everyone who plays Sorc that you didn't even bother to read properly and understand the conclusion. So I'll put my conclusion again for you: you won't be able to rely solely on Dark Deal for sustaining. That also applies to every other class and their own resource restoring mechanics that were making recovery trivial.

Also I wasn't the one who initially wrote about "X magicka per second (which was referencing PvE anyway)", I was replying to someone's post who had already made that statement. In PvE that statement is indeed pretty exact.

Izaki

Don't keep the PTS changes exactly as they are. (May not necessarily support this proposal. Discuss other ideas!)

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Let me say what no ones is willing to say the resource management with this skill was taken away and replaced with a subpar health that gives next to nothing back.

I'm pretty sure everyone has already said it multiple times