DK Changes... Seriously?

BuggeX

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Stam DK was the strongest class in the game by a long shot. mDk got buffs. I don't see the problem here.

what buffs? i just see nerfs in the current notes for me

Durham

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Stam DK was the strongest class in the game by a long shot. mDk got buffs. I don't see the problem here.

Now the weakest in the game ...

Ocelot9x

Now we re basically a nightblade without cloack,a reliable spammable and passives. GG!

MaxwellC

@Ocelot9x
Care to elaborate because these changes make me want to stop playing my Stam dk in PvP, never tank in PvE, and just go around killing this as if this game is a hack n slash minus the fun behind killing stuff.

Dragath

all these sustain changes are brutal for mdks.
we already struggle with our huge magicka costs.
sustain set(s) are already used by most mdks.
i just hope they consider reducing the cost of the magicka abilities.

Ocelot9x

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Ocelot9x
Care to elaborate because these changes make me want to stop playing my Stam dk in PvP, never tank in PvE, and just go around killing this as if this game is a hack n slash minus the fun behind killing stuff.

I'm a pvp only stam dk main(75+days last time I checked) and well,they took everything that made us special. We had 5 useful passives and 2 got nerfed. Our 2 (weak in PvP) dots got nerfed. Our source of survivability is now inexistent as a 3k PvP shield will be erased by a dot and a light attack. So we are now a weaker version of nightblades.

D0ntevenL1ft

The funniest thing is that the DK's are also one of the only classes that doesn't have a passive that boosts stamina regen directly, or increases stamina by a %. This is why we relied on helping hands and battle roar (and sadly adrenaline rush) but these were removed without giving us any other option.

Also to the people who keep saying REDGAURD dk's are unkillable; this is because of the partially broken adrenaline rush combined with broken stamina stacking sets that were introduced.

Once again this is no fault to the dragon knight but yet we took the biggest nerf because other classes still have their methods of sustain all whilst these sets remained unchanged.

Furthermore to the people who keep saying major mending is OP in PVP; have you even looked at the pirate skeleton set? Major protection through non-critable shields? Yet this was changed down to a 5% chance. A 1% difference for something as over powered as major protection in pvp and yet i see tears over major mending which the new P2W class still has.

MaxwellC

@Ocelot9x
Ah I get you also you made me realize that my screenshot was weird as it showed my hours played considerably less than it actually is. Here's how much it is on my Stam DK. (My Mag DK has 80 days

Anti_Virus

MaxwellC wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Honestly, you're kicking off too early. We have a few weeks of PTS ahead. Stam DK was a massive problem in PvP in regards to their infinite sustain. They'll now have to think of a way of sustaining instead of just stacking 40-50k stamina and let the class do all of its sustaining for them. For PvE, I think you need to catch up on a few Youtube videos, there are many unkillable Stam DK builds out there.

It might be that the nerfs are completely overkill. We'll find out very soon.

Please my goodness prove it if you seriously think that a Stam DKs sustain was a massive problem PROVE IT. How is that a thing because as long as I've played PvP on my Stam DK the only time I had little sustain issues is when I wore 5 pc marksman but yet again that's a set influencing my class and not the class it's self.
You cannot justify these nerfs especially when dark deal hasn't been touched on Stam Sorc. You talk about stacking 40k-50k stamina, read the other posts mate how the hell is stacking that much stamina and gimping out weapon damage good for sustain when you're only reliance would be igneous shield which costs literally 4.4-4.5k soon to be more with these changes. My pool on my Stamina DK is around 10k PLEASE TELL ME how the hell will I sustain with a 2.5k return that gets burned in one ability use?

I swear I feel that you're that same zark guy because you guys cite all these un-kill-able DK videos then it comes out to be a bloody armor set that doesn't involve the DKs skills at all rather than the set in conjunction with the blocking passive and that's it. Show me a video I'll even wait for you.

Also I'm ahead because I don't want my class to be nerf'd again for what 3 patches in a row. So ofc I'm very vocal about it currently so it gets something across immediately.

It's like would you fix a weird sound you hear in your car two weeks down the line or would you take that car by the horns and fix it immediately because it could potentially destroy it?

Trolls will be trolls man just leave them be.

Xvorg

Zarkeson wrote: »

There are some tanks in pve that never die and never run out of mag/stamina. Everyone in the trial group died, but this one dude kept the battle on for a whole 20 min(until the dead got tired of being dead). What is able to be done in pvp is surely more applicable in pve.

I do agree that PVE/PVP changes should be SEPARATE in some cases. Much like in pvp we get "battle spirit".

Did he killed anyone?

No?

Just ignore him

Anti_Virus

The_Outsider wrote: »

Helping Hands is already a minuscule Stamina return, even for Stamknights. Battle Roar is powerful, but it's also the only thing that MagKnights have for sustain, and nerfing it is especially horrible when you consider that the class fights with attrition. How can you win through attrition if you always have worse sustain than your opponent?

Helping Hands will net you 2,000 Stam with ~40k Max Stam. That's hardly minuscule.

Battle Roar will return more Health and Stamina for mDKs now. The change is part of a overarching combat change to prevent resource return from stacking 1 attribute to high heaven.

Winning through attrition is the old DK way. With buffs to whip, Leap, Flame staff, the popularity of BSW, and a BoL-esqe health, mDKs are burstier than ever in PVP.

It costs you 4.5k magicka to restore 2k resources try again.

Xvorg

Zarkeson wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9sYmM4TfHY&t=0s
One example of real DK tanking. Plenty more for real pros.

Again: did he kill anyone?

No

Just ignore him...

Xvorg

Zarkeson wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Zarkeson
Patched lol Please buddy this wasn't even involving the DK in the first place rather the armor leeching. It's been patched the leeching plate B.S especially since the nerf to proc sets so yet again Try again with the "That one time at band camp"

You do realize there are ALOT of other tanking sets. You just need to know how to play. That video March 1st 2017. FYI the team has already done its own tests and is good. Go out more and see more other DK instead of yourself. DK win in pvp a lot. Excell in pve.
You gotta invest in gear, get the stats, recovery, and abilities right. Timing is crucial. Get your gaming straight. Choose your role and stick to it. It's not about the class it's you.

Oke peace.

For third time: is that tanky DK doing any harm to the enemies around?

No?

just ignore him...

Durham

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Stam DK was the strongest class in the game by a long shot. mDk got buffs. I don't see the problem here.

Now the weakest in the game ...

Xvorg wrote: »

Zarkeson wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Zarkeson
Patched lol Please buddy this wasn't even involving the DK in the first place rather the armor leeching. It's been patched the leeching plate B.S especially since the nerf to proc sets so yet again Try again with the "That one time at band camp"

You do realize there are ALOT of other tanking sets. You just need to know how to play. That video March 1st 2017. FYI the team has already done its own tests and is good. Go out more and see more other DK instead of yourself. DK win in pvp a lot. Excell in pve.
You gotta invest in gear, get the stats, recovery, and abilities right. Timing is crucial. Get your gaming straight. Choose your role and stick to it. It's not about the class it's you.

Oke peace.

For third time: is that tanky DK doing any harm to the enemies around?

No?

just ignore him...

/agree ... serves no purpose in PVP except tanking guards lol ... wow

Xvorg

Durham wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Helping Hands is already a minuscule Stamina return, even for Stamknights. Battle Roar is powerful, but it's also the only thing that MagKnights have for sustain, and nerfing it is especially horrible when you consider that the class fights with attrition. How can you win through attrition if you always have worse sustain than your opponent?

Helping Hands will net you 2,000 Stam with ~40k Max Stam. That's hardly minuscule.

Battle Roar will return more Health and Stamina for mDKs now. The change is part of a overarching combat change to prevent resource return from stacking 1 attribute to high heaven.

Winning through attrition is the old DK way. With buffs to whip, Leap, Flame staff, the popularity of BSW, and a BoL-esqe health, mDKs are burstier than ever in PVP.

Umm no ...not 2000 it's more like 1000..... max stam has nothing to do with it now it's level based... you get a break even at around 18k stam.... Battle Roar returns less stam .... your major mending is gutted... cost of block is x2 ... 30% increase the cost vigor ..... 10% more for all stam abilities...

I agree that magicka DKs did not take it on the chin as much as stam did .... as a class stam DKs are hurting

He says already. Meaning currently. I'm clarifying how much Helping Hands will net you right now. No idea what it's going to be post-update.

Vigor, block and I think it's 5% more (?), those things affect all stam classes.

Buuuut I agree, the Igneous shield nerf is damn heavy... Although my sNB has no sympathy for your newfound lack of major mending.

-30% increase in vigor costs...
-Blocking has been changed with multiple hits it's 50% more...

Your stam Night blade will have no trouble with DKs my brothers stamblade destroyed me in a duel where I knew he was coming last night... before last night it was longer and I usually edged him out... now I'm destroyed rather quickly ...he is actually doing more damage now then before ...
-

Right, all Stam classes cast Vigor and Block. Vigor and 5% Ability cost increase are just a blanket Stam nerf.

I just covet buffs I don't have. Want all buffs.
I'm not sure why his NB would hit you harder. No damage buffs for NB that I saw.

25 % direct damage buff champion tree... that's how...
I know all classes get this nerf ... I play all 4 stam classes ... I'm telling you the stam DK is by far the weakest at this point

Ya possibly. There should be at least 1 more round of change revisions before the actually update hits so I guess we'll just have to see what they do. Sorcs didn't get any nerfs this update so I'm wondering which community will now be the loudest, DKs or Templars?

Yes I agree what I see is the inherent problem of trying to balance stam and magicka ... There was no reason to nerf the stam temp but by nerfing the magicka temp they nerfed the stam temp...
There was so no reason to nerf the DK the way that they did...
I don't like nerfs it's really bad for the game I prefer buffs to other things to offset ... this will end the game for many players and that's sad for those of us that really enjoy this game....

There was no reason for 2 different resource pools... Period.

Dragath

i think reducing sustain isn't a bad idea overall, but certain classes/set-ups do already suffer and should be compensated one way or another.
there is still some time for improvements/adjustments.
the most important thing at the moment is to test and give feedback.

Excabor

SOOOOO i just leveled a DK tank. Are you saying it is not a good choice as a tank anymore? Are there better options?

MaxwellC

@Dragath
Yeah reducing sustain isn't bad but when you mess with something that wasn't and isn't a problem that ruins balance by making it even worse instead of improving on the various short comings that affect it as a whole, then there's a problem. People talk about sustain being nerf'd is a good thing but take in the big picture, we lost the sustain we get from CP in terms of reduction and as for stamina DK our only form of recovering stamina is via igneous shield.

With Igneous shields new unjustified and completely insane nerf it now kills that sustain which ultimately benefited us the most in PvE content if we're tanking as in PvP you're not going to spam it 100% of the time since you have fossilize or hard armor that you'd want to use while in a fight. If you can tell me that these nerfs to my class is justified in anyway then I can't see you playing a DK for a long time. If we wanna talk about OP sustain check our dark deal that is something that has never took a hit even though it provides health and damage resource.

Oompuh

How is PVE DK TANK at a disadvantage to other classes next patch. As a khajiit, I have 25k stam and 18k magicka. Battle roar will give me more next patch. Helping hands will get reduced by a little bit. Major mending was cool, but not a requirement. All other changes are universal.. DK tanks are fine.

Durham

Oompuh wrote: »

How is PVE DK TANK at a disadvantage to other classes next patch. As a khajiit, I have 25k stam and 18k magicka. Battle roar will give me more next patch. Helping hands will get reduced by a little bit. Major mending was cool, but not a requirement. All other changes are universal.. DK tanks are fine.

Your blocking cost are x2 ... your taking a 20% to 30% nerf from helping in stam in helping hand.... You will not see much difference in battle roar because your stam is at 25k... Yes DK PVE tank will still be good imo... best in slot yet to be determined ... You resources will take a hit that's for sure ...
The Stam DK was obliterated literally some of the stuff can't stand honestly ..

Oompuh

Durham wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

How is PVE DK TANK at a disadvantage to other classes next patch. As a khajiit, I have 25k stam and 18k magicka. Battle roar will give me more next patch. Helping hands will get reduced by a little bit. Major mending was cool, but not a requirement. All other changes are universal.. DK tanks are fine.

Your blocking cost are x2 ... your taking a 20% to 30% nerf from helping in stam in helping hand.... You will not see much difference in battle roar because your stam is at 25k... Yes DK PVE tank will still be good imo... best in slot yet to be determined ... You resources will take a hit that's for sure ...
The Stam DK was obliterated literally some of the stuff can't stand honestly ..

And so is every other classes block cost. What's gonna replace it? A damn Betty netch? Dropping block to dark deal? Repenting the 0 adds? The 300 stamina from leeching strikes?

Tanking as a whole is nerfed, DK tanking is still king by far

And for the record. Bosses single target attacks are still at a rate of .5 seconds. So yeah

Vapirko

Zarkeson wrote: »

Consider the Following:

• Dragon Knights are more leaned as tanks. DPS should not be their go.
• The ARE "unkillable" DKs out there. Twenty people hitting a DK that never runs out of stamina or magicka; infinite block. Health never goes down until there are at least thirty people.
• A lot of DKs spam igneous shield infinitely, making them deathless.
• Helping hands give DKs extra blocking fuel + ultimate attribute refund = infinite block, health.

I honestly have to agree with the Zen Team's nerfs to DK. Good job team.

Its CP thats the problem. You clearly dont play Azuras. There are just as many Sorcs who can sustain through a bunch of hits as DK.

Durham

Oompuh wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

How is PVE DK TANK at a disadvantage to other classes next patch. As a khajiit, I have 25k stam and 18k magicka. Battle roar will give me more next patch. Helping hands will get reduced by a little bit. Major mending was cool, but not a requirement. All other changes are universal.. DK tanks are fine.

Your blocking cost are x2 ... your taking a 20% to 30% nerf from helping in stam in helping hand.... You will not see much difference in battle roar because your stam is at 25k... Yes DK PVE tank will still be good imo... best in slot yet to be determined ... You resources will take a hit that's for sure ...
The Stam DK was obliterated literally some of the stuff can't stand honestly ..

And so is every other classes block cost. What's gonna replace it? A damn Betty netch? Dropping block to dark deal? Repenting the 0 adds? The 300 stamina from leeching strikes?

Tanking as a whole is nerfed, DK tanking is still king by far

And for the record. Bosses single target attacks are still at a rate of .5 seconds. So yeah

What are you arguing about I said I think DKs are fine in Tanking PVE... Might even still be best in slot but I have not played the warden as a tank... You don't need to point out blocking is affected by everyone I know that... I simply pointing out that 20% stam return on your PVE tank will be felt after this patch... Yep bosses are .5 but as you know boss mobs are often not the only thing hitting you...

Sooo yeah

Oompuh

Durham wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Oompuh wrote: »

How is PVE DK TANK at a disadvantage to other classes next patch. As a khajiit, I have 25k stam and 18k magicka. Battle roar will give me more next patch. Helping hands will get reduced by a little bit. Major mending was cool, but not a requirement. All other changes are universal.. DK tanks are fine.

Your blocking cost are x2 ... your taking a 20% to 30% nerf from helping in stam in helping hand.... You will not see much difference in battle roar because your stam is at 25k... Yes DK PVE tank will still be good imo... best in slot yet to be determined ... You resources will take a hit that's for sure ...
The Stam DK was obliterated literally some of the stuff can't stand honestly ..

And so is every other classes block cost. What's gonna replace it? A damn Betty netch? Dropping block to dark deal? Repenting the 0 adds? The 300 stamina from leeching strikes?

Tanking as a whole is nerfed, DK tanking is still king by far

And for the record. Bosses single target attacks are still at a rate of .5 seconds. So yeah

What are you arguing about I said I think DKs are fine in Tanking PVE... Might even still be best in slot but I have not played the warden as a tank... You don't need to point out blocking is affected by everyone I know that... I simply pointing out that 20% stam return on your PVE tank will be felt after this patch... Yep bosses are .5 but as you know boss mobs are often not the only thing hitting you...

Sooo yeah

Tanking rakkhat - off tank has the hulk, no other mobs around.
Tanking warrior - off tank has destroyers and flame shapers, still no other mobs around.
Tanking Serpent - Manti is up, I'll taunt that.. and it's dead.
Tanking axes - well I don't usually need shards, but one won't hurt.. and there's my stamina

Soooooooo yeahhhhhhhhhhhh, sky is falling. Warden bis tank. DK is dead.

MaxwellC

@Oompuh Grats you play your tank in a completely weird setup where you have a medium pool of stamina and a medium pool of magicka, guessing your health is either in the 25k ball park maybe less. I just tried tanking on the PTS when my mate came over since he actively plays Stam DK on PC as I only play Mag. It was laughably terrible. Sustain issues through the roof also judging by your setup based on attributes there's no way you use igneous shield a lot and with these changes oh boy they'll be fun for you I bet lmao.

DK tanking isn't going to be a thing next patch at-least the way this patch is heading if things are left as it stands, maybe we'll just have Sorcerers for Tanks and DPS while DKs can just go craft or something.

Each one of these changes were un-necessary imo and should have never even been brought to this PTS. With the CP changes this just makes it even more difficult to sustain group encounters let alone high damaging opponents like the warrior in Hel Ra. Major mending is needed yet again you look at it from one perspective but don't look at it from other perspectives such as those who play PvP and those who heal in PvE (I do both). Battle Roar changes not only ruin every Stam DK who has high stamina especially those who tank but it also nerfs our sustain yet again. My tank runs at 30k health 35-36k stamina, 11k magicka with around 1500-1700 magicka regen btw.

Oompuh

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Oompuh Grats you play your tank in a completely weird setup where you have a medium pool of stamina and a medium pool of magicka, guessing your health is either in the 25k ball park maybe less. I just tried tanking on the PTS when my mate came over since he actively plays Stam DK on PC as I only play Mag. It was laughably terrible. Sustain issues through the roof also judging by your setup based on attributes there's no way you use igneous shield a lot and with these changes oh boy they'll be fun for you I bet lmao.

DK tanking isn't going to be a thing next patch at-least the way this patch is heading if things are left as it stands, maybe we'll just have Sorcerers for Tanks and DPS while DKs can just go craft or something.

Each one of these changes were un-necessary imo and should have never even been brought to this PTS. With the CP changes this just makes it even more difficult to sustain group encounters let alone high damaging opponents like the warrior in Hel Ra. Major mending is needed yet again you look at it from one perspective but don't look at it from other perspectives such as those who play PvP and those who heal in PvE (I do both). Battle Roar changes not ruin every Stam DK who has high stamina especially those who tank. My tank runs at 30k health 35-36k stamina, 11k magicka with around 1500-1700 magicka regen btw.

I use woelers build so... actually meta. 32k health 25k stam 18k magic 1k mag recov. Spam igneous constantly. Sooo gg? Sounds like a l2p issue

IlCanis_LupuslI

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

Zarkeson wrote: »

Consider the Following:

• Dragon Knights are more leaned as tanks. DPS should not be their go.
• The ARE "unkillable" DKs out there. Twenty people hitting a DK that never runs out of stamina or magicka; infinite block. Health never goes down until there are at least thirty people.
• A lot of DKs spam igneous shield infinitely, making them deathless.
• Helping hands give DKs extra blocking fuel + ultimate attribute refund = infinite block, health.

I honestly have to agree with the Zen Team's nerfs to DK. Good job team.

• Classes should not be shoehorned into roles. The fact that DPS builds are possible on "tank" and "healer" classes is a massive selling point of ESO. Letting a "tank" class pull good DPS is a much smaller offense in my book than killing build diversity.
• Twenty people beating on a DK and having the DK survive while also never running out of resources is a blatant lie. Dragonknights already have the utterly worst sustain in the game. They may have been capable of taking on zergs back when dynamic ultimate generation was a thing and they could throw out Devouring Swarms like candy, but that was a long time ago. The only build that can really survive that many people at once is a Blazing Shield Templar. And even those guys aren't infallible.
• Igneous Shield doesn't make you immortal. The shield itself is tiny. The primary use for it is for Major Mending to make Coagulating Blood more powerful, and Coagulating Blood is weaker than BoL... And even if you consider the Templar losing Major Mending, BoL is still stronger than CDB.
• Helping Hands is already a minuscule Stamina return, even for Stamknights. Battle Roar is powerful, but it's also the only thing that MagKnights have for sustain, and nerfing it is especially horrible when you consider that the class fights with attrition. How can you win through attrition if you always have worse sustain than your opponent?

Dks worst substain in Game????// MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Ever played Stam dk, 5 pc black rose, 2 pc boodspawn, 3 pc agility, Maelstrom 2h, Master bow???? I have the substain you get with only 500 stam reg is still 3x better then on my stamblade where i have a stam recovery of 2k. Face it Dks were over performing!!!!! Or how do you explain all the Groups consisting of only dks??????? LIterally 40 to 50 percent of the groups in PvP consist of Dragonknights!!! Because the substain is stupidly high with almost no reg and your self heals with the permanent Major mending is simply to strong!!!!!!!
And yes while you can play any class as anything their basic characteristics are always there, for example nightblades will always be alittle squishy. Im very delighted about the patch notes and i cant wait till they go live. By by Meta Stam DK and thank you Zenimax!!!!!!!!!

MaxwellC

@Oompuh
So that's your remark to my statement, have you played the PTS I surely doubt that. After playing it shortly after I made this thread I was definitely sure around 80% that this would kill my Stam DK in PvE + PvP but when my mate came over and I tried on a Stam DK (since I tried on a Mag DK first) I'm 100% positive with the added changes this will obliterate my DK completely, at-least my stam dk.

You still can't spam igneous shield consistently just wanna throw that out there since you'd get 4 casts with every what 6 seconds you'd receive another cast for it. You should refrain from using the word constantly especially when referring to a high costing skill that cannot be brought down at-least efficiently without gimping your build, you can use it more frequently would be better but you still generate 1250 stamina each with that low stam pool. 30k Stamina isn't any better as I would just net 250 more stamina per cast.

MaxwellC

@Mangeli200194
Lol before I jump off, it's nice to see another come into my thread. It's funny in your post you mention black rose, blood-spawn, and agility set... you know what they all have in common? THEY'RE NOT CLASS SPECIFIC. Isn't that incredible I mean who wouldn't thunk it?! I love how you throw around alternative facts stating that "40-50 percent of PvP are all DKs" (Paraphrased), as if that's some wide knowledge lol get out of my thread.

MaxwellC

@Oompuh
And we have #3? Jeez please just leave my thread alone, don't need people like yourself having a voice when it comes to spreading regurgitated propaganda through popular channels.