DK Changes... Seriously?

MaxwellC

@LorDrek
Ikr and I run ebon + alkosh, looks like I need to be running Ebon + some high magicka regen build that somehow gives me 3k magicka sustain, so I can mash igneous shields twice as much since that's how hard this nerf will be a nice direct 50% nerf.

olsborg

Valencer wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@WillhelmBlack

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

At least mag DK got a small boost to Stam return. That should compensate for some of the block nerf.

I must say I'm not particularly disappointed with any of the nerfs to each of the classes but I can say that Stamina Templar has taken the biggest nerf, not Stam DK.

Yeah see that's a perspective of not playing Stamina DK and shouldn't justify these changes as being 'fair'. What is being done is no sustain for Stamina DK whatsoever, sure Mag DK gets some sustain boost but remember now you lose major mending overall and with that goes your survivability. Heck if these changes go through I cannot play my Mag DK as a healer in trials or dungeons anymore since I won't get that 6 second boost reliably since igneous shield's shield is so bloody lackluster it'll drop when a chicken hits it.

You're also wrong Stam DK has taken the biggest hit as we've been consistently nerf'd while Stamplar got some improvements last patch. If you feel otherwise feel free to come cite me some quotes because I just checked and didn't see a damn improvement for my Stamina DK.

Honestly, you're kicking off too early. We have a few weeks of PTS ahead. Stam DK was a massive problem in PvP in regards to their infinite sustain. They'll now have to think of a way of sustaining instead of just stacking 40-50k stamina and let the class do all of its sustaining for them. For PvE, I think you need to catch up on a few Youtube videos, there are many unkillable Stam DK builds out there.

It might be that the nerfs are completely overkill. We'll find out very soon.

Redguard + heavy armour allowed stamina DKs to sustain perfectly with high max stamina and low regen. These battle roar and helping hands nerfs have a huge impact on stamina DK builds not crutching on those 2 things on the live server.

DK Major Mending might as well be non-existent in PvP now too, because the average DK PvP build has igneous shields that can be removed with a light attack.

Anyway, there's no point QQing about it so I won't. In typical ZOS fashion, they hit everything with a sledgehammer.

This is what I was thinking, stamdks could manage stamina with passives alone, not needing any regen to sustain themself, effectively putting everything in dmg. And the higher the max stam the better sustain. So it did need a nerf, but yes they overdid the nerf by a large margin, specially since stamdk takes multiple hits in the way of their sustain and healing.

What I do not understand is the cost increase of Vigor...thats just asenine. Lets make stamina heals cost more and heal less, but we leave damage shields completely alone.

MaxwellC

Yet Redguard + heavy armor + stam Sorc wasn't meta right?
Redguard + heavy armor + Stamplar wasn't Meta right??
Redguard + Heavy armor + Nightblade wasn't meta right??

We all know which class had the greatest sustain out of that bunch and let me tell you it's not the bloody DK especially with a dismal return of stamina from helping hands. On average based on most players having around 35k stamina pools, they'd get 1750 return on using igneous shield; so you can multiply it by two which would be 3500. No other class would get around 12k stamina when burning their magicka right??

Bashev

olsborg wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@WillhelmBlack

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

At least mag DK got a small boost to Stam return. That should compensate for some of the block nerf.

I must say I'm not particularly disappointed with any of the nerfs to each of the classes but I can say that Stamina Templar has taken the biggest nerf, not Stam DK.

Yeah see that's a perspective of not playing Stamina DK and shouldn't justify these changes as being 'fair'. What is being done is no sustain for Stamina DK whatsoever, sure Mag DK gets some sustain boost but remember now you lose major mending overall and with that goes your survivability. Heck if these changes go through I cannot play my Mag DK as a healer in trials or dungeons anymore since I won't get that 6 second boost reliably since igneous shield's shield is so bloody lackluster it'll drop when a chicken hits it.

You're also wrong Stam DK has taken the biggest hit as we've been consistently nerf'd while Stamplar got some improvements last patch. If you feel otherwise feel free to come cite me some quotes because I just checked and didn't see a damn improvement for my Stamina DK.

Honestly, you're kicking off too early. We have a few weeks of PTS ahead. Stam DK was a massive problem in PvP in regards to their infinite sustain. They'll now have to think of a way of sustaining instead of just stacking 40-50k stamina and let the class do all of its sustaining for them. For PvE, I think you need to catch up on a few Youtube videos, there are many unkillable Stam DK builds out there.

It might be that the nerfs are completely overkill. We'll find out very soon.

Redguard + heavy armour allowed stamina DKs to sustain perfectly with high max stamina and low regen. These battle roar and helping hands nerfs have a huge impact on stamina DK builds not crutching on those 2 things on the live server.

DK Major Mending might as well be non-existent in PvP now too, because the average DK PvP build has igneous shields that can be removed with a light attack.

Anyway, there's no point QQing about it so I won't. In typical ZOS fashion, they hit everything with a sledgehammer.

This is what I was thinking, stamdks could manage stamina with passives alone, not needing any regen to sustain themself, effectively putting everything in dmg. And the higher the max stam the better sustain. So it did need a nerf, but yes they overdid the nerf by a large margin, specially since stamdk takes multiple hits in the way of their sustain and healing.

What I do not understand is the cost increase of Vigor...thats just asenine. Lets make stamina heals cost more and heal less, but we leave damage shields completely alone.

The nerf of the sustain is needed but it should be equal to all classes. According to me the biggest nerf to all classes is for stam DK. The average stam DK in PvP uses 2/3 dk skills. Battle roar, helping hands and igneous shield are the core of the stam DK. If somebody ask you why will you choose a stam dk over another class for a stamina PvP build, these 3 skills were the reason. Now all the 3 are heavily nerfed. The conclusion is obvious.

WillhelmBlack

Valencer wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@WillhelmBlack

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

At least mag DK got a small boost to Stam return. That should compensate for some of the block nerf.

I must say I'm not particularly disappointed with any of the nerfs to each of the classes but I can say that Stamina Templar has taken the biggest nerf, not Stam DK.

Yeah see that's a perspective of not playing Stamina DK and shouldn't justify these changes as being 'fair'. What is being done is no sustain for Stamina DK whatsoever, sure Mag DK gets some sustain boost but remember now you lose major mending overall and with that goes your survivability. Heck if these changes go through I cannot play my Mag DK as a healer in trials or dungeons anymore since I won't get that 6 second boost reliably since igneous shield's shield is so bloody lackluster it'll drop when a chicken hits it.

You're also wrong Stam DK has taken the biggest hit as we've been consistently nerf'd while Stamplar got some improvements last patch. If you feel otherwise feel free to come cite me some quotes because I just checked and didn't see a damn improvement for my Stamina DK.

Honestly, you're kicking off too early. We have a few weeks of PTS ahead. Stam DK was a massive problem in PvP in regards to their infinite sustain. They'll now have to think of a way of sustaining instead of just stacking 40-50k stamina and let the class do all of its sustaining for them. For PvE, I think you need to catch up on a few Youtube videos, there are many unkillable Stam DK builds out there.

It might be that the nerfs are completely overkill. We'll find out very soon.

Redguard + heavy armour allowed stamina DKs to sustain perfectly with high max stamina and low regen. These battle roar and helping hands nerfs have a huge impact on stamina DK builds not crutching on those 2 things on the live server.

DK Major Mending might as well be non-existent in PvP now too, because the average DK PvP build has igneous shields that can be removed with a light attack.

Anyway, there's no point QQing about it so I won't. In typical ZOS fashion, they hit everything with a sledgehammer.

Major Mending really shouldn't exist in PvP though. ESO is the only PvP game I've played that allows you to sit in the middle of a group pounding the #%*$ out of you whilst you press 2 buttons and hold block.

Ocelot9x

MaxwellC wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Honestly, you're kicking off too early. We have a few weeks of PTS ahead. Stam DK was a massive problem in PvP in regards to their infinite sustain. They'll now have to think of a way of sustaining instead of just stacking 40-50k stamina and let the class do all of its sustaining for them. For PvE, I think you need to catch up on a few Youtube videos, there are many unkillable Stam DK builds out there.

It might be that the nerfs are completely overkill. We'll find out very soon.

Please my goodness prove it if you seriously think that a Stam DKs sustain was a massive problem PROVE IT. How is that a thing because as long as I've played PvP on my Stam DK the only time I had little sustain issues is when I wore 5 pc marksman but yet again that's a set influencing my class and not the class it's self.
You cannot justify these nerfs especially when dark deal hasn't been touched on Stam Sorc. You talk about stacking 40k-50k stamina, read the other posts mate how the hell is stacking that much stamina and gimping out weapon damage good for sustain when you're only reliance would be igneous shield which costs literally 4.4-4.5k soon to be more with these changes. My pool on my Stamina DK is around 10k PLEASE TELL ME how the hell will I sustain with a 2.5k return that gets burned in one ability use?

I swear I feel that you're that same zark guy because you guys cite all these un-kill-able DK videos then it comes out to be a bloody armor set that doesn't involve the DKs skills at all rather than the set in conjunction with the blocking passive and that's it. Show me a video I'll even wait for you.

Also I'm ahead because I don't want my class to be nerf'd again for what 3 patches in a row. So ofc I'm very vocal about it currently so it gets something across immediately.

It's like would you fix a weird sound you hear in your car two weeks down the line or would you take that car by the horns and fix it immediately because it could potentially destroy it?

I think they're trolling or just inexperienced.
Zos nerfed everything that made the class "unique" giving nothing back. I won't fall for the "play a warden" meme,if things go live like that I'm out.

FlyLionel

MaxwellC wrote: »

@FlyLionel
Nah you know they didn't go through every single trial including vDSA, to make sure these changes wouldn't destroy PvE. If they remove Major mending then they need to remove sorcs damage passive and NBs crit passive then it'll be fair. How about that? *Sarcasm* so you know.

Lol..honestly dude..deep down. @MaxwellC

They do not have to touch the classes sustain because dark deal does not get nerfed, all they have to do is tweek the cp system and idk nerf most major mending passives, do those type of things so players can test it and figure out whats good...reduce timer for major mending? 3-4 seconds? Battle roar/siphoning strikes/igneous spam/repentence and all that is getting hit as well? That is a massive nuke, these beta testers man....I swear the POWER IS WITH UUUUUuuu...s.o.s. I still have faith in zos, after all Morrowind sales are on the line!...I pre ordered a while ago though? I felt cheated when I read the notes. Regrets.

Valencer

MaxwellC wrote: »

Yet Redguard + heavy armor + stam Sorc wasn't meta right?
Redguard + heavy armor + Stamplar wasn't Meta right??
Redguard + Heavy armor + Nightblade wasn't meta right??

We all know which class had the greatest sustain out of that bunch and let me tell you it's not the bloody DK especially with a dismal return of stamina from helping hands. On average based on most players having around 35k stamina pools, they'd get 1750 return on using igneous shield; so you can multiply it by two which would be 3500. No other class would get around 12k stamina when burning their magicka right??

There's pros and cons to each class. Stamina sorcs ultimately have better sustain that doesnt rely on ultimates but at the end of the day the dark deal channel is counterable (even though it's difficult to do so consistently).

I mean, be honest... youre not going to run out of stamina with a high stamina pool, redguard and heavy armour unless you get poisoned. Instead of treating the root causes which is heavy armour and redguard they slammed the DK class with a sledgehammer. Gonna be fun to try and make that work on my medium armour imperial

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@WillhelmBlack

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

At least mag DK got a small boost to Stam return. That should compensate for some of the block nerf.

I must say I'm not particularly disappointed with any of the nerfs to each of the classes but I can say that Stamina Templar has taken the biggest nerf, not Stam DK.

Yeah see that's a perspective of not playing Stamina DK and shouldn't justify these changes as being 'fair'. What is being done is no sustain for Stamina DK whatsoever, sure Mag DK gets some sustain boost but remember now you lose major mending overall and with that goes your survivability. Heck if these changes go through I cannot play my Mag DK as a healer in trials or dungeons anymore since I won't get that 6 second boost reliably since igneous shield's shield is so bloody lackluster it'll drop when a chicken hits it.

You're also wrong Stam DK has taken the biggest hit as we've been consistently nerf'd while Stamplar got some improvements last patch. If you feel otherwise feel free to come cite me some quotes because I just checked and didn't see a damn improvement for my Stamina DK.

Honestly, you're kicking off too early. We have a few weeks of PTS ahead. Stam DK was a massive problem in PvP in regards to their infinite sustain. They'll now have to think of a way of sustaining instead of just stacking 40-50k stamina and let the class do all of its sustaining for them. For PvE, I think you need to catch up on a few Youtube videos, there are many unkillable Stam DK builds out there.

It might be that the nerfs are completely overkill. We'll find out very soon.

Redguard + heavy armour allowed stamina DKs to sustain perfectly with high max stamina and low regen. These battle roar and helping hands nerfs have a huge impact on stamina DK builds not crutching on those 2 things on the live server.

DK Major Mending might as well be non-existent in PvP now too, because the average DK PvP build has igneous shields that can be removed with a light attack.

Anyway, there's no point QQing about it so I won't. In typical ZOS fashion, they hit everything with a sledgehammer.

Major Mending really shouldn't exist in PvP though. ESO is the only PvP game I've played that allows you to sit in the middle of a group pounding the #%*$ out of you whilst you press 2 buttons and hold block.

Yeah, it would be nice if PvP took a bit more skill than that.

Healing is the main defense a DK has in the current meta though. Just because that got paired with insane block sustain because of heavy armour overbuffing doesnt really justify gutting the healing like that.

Wardens will be able to proc major mending for 6 seconds when they heal themselves or allies when theyre under 50% health. Seems similar to me

WillhelmBlack

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@WillhelmBlack

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

At least mag DK got a small boost to Stam return. That should compensate for some of the block nerf.

I must say I'm not particularly disappointed with any of the nerfs to each of the classes but I can say that Stamina Templar has taken the biggest nerf, not Stam DK.

Yeah see that's a perspective of not playing Stamina DK and shouldn't justify these changes as being 'fair'. What is being done is no sustain for Stamina DK whatsoever, sure Mag DK gets some sustain boost but remember now you lose major mending overall and with that goes your survivability. Heck if these changes go through I cannot play my Mag DK as a healer in trials or dungeons anymore since I won't get that 6 second boost reliably since igneous shield's shield is so bloody lackluster it'll drop when a chicken hits it.

You're also wrong Stam DK has taken the biggest hit as we've been consistently nerf'd while Stamplar got some improvements last patch. If you feel otherwise feel free to come cite me some quotes because I just checked and didn't see a damn improvement for my Stamina DK.

Honestly, you're kicking off too early. We have a few weeks of PTS ahead. Stam DK was a massive problem in PvP in regards to their infinite sustain. They'll now have to think of a way of sustaining instead of just stacking 40-50k stamina and let the class do all of its sustaining for them. For PvE, I think you need to catch up on a few Youtube videos, there are many unkillable Stam DK builds out there.

It might be that the nerfs are completely overkill. We'll find out very soon.

Redguard + heavy armour allowed stamina DKs to sustain perfectly with high max stamina and low regen. These battle roar and helping hands nerfs have a huge impact on stamina DK builds not crutching on those 2 things on the live server.

DK Major Mending might as well be non-existent in PvP now too, because the average DK PvP build has igneous shields that can be removed with a light attack.

Anyway, there's no point QQing about it so I won't. In typical ZOS fashion, they hit everything with a sledgehammer.

Major Mending really shouldn't exist in PvP though. ESO is the only PvP game I've played that allows you to sit in the middle of a group pounding the #%*$ out of you whilst you press 2 buttons and hold block.

I'll be testing stacking more into other attributes on PTS on Stam DK. Seems 30k ish with high recovery might be the sweet spot.

SublimeSparo

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@olsborg
Yeah we have minor mending via dragon's blood then again you're missing it. You're stating the minor mending so you expect every DK to slot dragon's blood then combine that with igneous shield which would top around 8k magicka. Stam DKs aren't going to destroy their resource pool just like that especially in PvP and PvE.

How in the world is helping hands over performing even at 50k stamina which would come out to 2,500 stamina at the cost of 4.4k-4.5k magicka at that point you'd get back 5k when you spend nearly 10k magicka. Even with that you would need to sacrifice a lot and gear it to that hulking set that provides max stamina so yet again it's impossible that it's over performing as you stated.

I might agree that isolated on its own, helping hands is only strong, not overpeforming, but put into a minmax build with a heavy armor stamdk who's also a redguard you could play a noregen build but still end up with better sustain then a medium armor regen build with 2500 stamregen. This is why ZOS nerfs the resource returns from passives, sure they might have overdone it, as usual, but some kindof nerf was needed.

Yet a stamsorc who can build completely on damage remains untouched. Also, since when do we dedicate nerfs and buffs based on min/max builds?

So why not add in min/max sorc whose loaded up to 50k magicka; why are his shields not nerfed? Something needs to be done about that but clearly its over looked and changes are made on classes and skills that are perfectly balanced.

The problem wasn't the DK passives it was idiotic sets like Hulking Draugr and necropotence for magicka counterparts etc.

Quit nerfing classes when the real problem is broken gear addition.

You think? Heavy Armor stam sorc relied heaviliy on Warlord. Now, that's gone. Unless you wanna Crit Rush > Dark Deal > Dizzy Swing > Dark Deal > etc. you ain't gonna be untouched as a Stam sorc.

Yeah... Those sorcs are gonna run out of magicka pretty quickly because shields now cost 16% more than they used to. That's huge. you aren't going to spam shields for days at all.

21% not 16%, 16 less from no magician and another 5% from the light armour nerfs assuming running 5p light

WillhelmBlack

Valencer wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Yet Redguard + heavy armor + stam Sorc wasn't meta right?
Redguard + heavy armor + Stamplar wasn't Meta right??
Redguard + Heavy armor + Nightblade wasn't meta right??

We all know which class had the greatest sustain out of that bunch and let me tell you it's not the bloody DK especially with a dismal return of stamina from helping hands. On average based on most players having around 35k stamina pools, they'd get 1750 return on using igneous shield; so you can multiply it by two which would be 3500. No other class would get around 12k stamina when burning their magicka right??

There's pros and cons to each class. Stamina sorcs ultimately have better sustain that doesnt rely on ultimates but at the end of the day the dark deal channel is counterable (even though it's difficult to do so consistently).

I mean, be honest... youre not going to run out of stamina with a high stamina pool, redguard and heavy armour unless you get poisoned. Instead of treating the root causes which is heavy armour and redguard they slammed the DK class with a sledgehammer. Gonna be fun to try and make that work on my medium armour imperial

You've seen it yourself when my Templar comes together with your Stam DK. It's pointless, neither of us will win. I'm massively in favour of the Major to Minor mending change on Templar. You'll just have to pop your shield immediately before vigor or rally from now on. I've always done that anyway, I didn't even know the Major Mending lasted after the shield popped.

MaxwellC

@WillhelmBlack
So much for those videos but on to what you just stated about using igneous shield with vigor,etc.

You do know DoTs do not ignore shields right? So if I'm Dotted I use igneous shield and boom it's gone lol.. I can see if the shield was somewhat strong but like I stated before a chicken can hit you once and that is gone, now if a DoT is applied you no longer get major mending unless you apply it while the tick is occurring e.g. Vigor tick 1, applies igneous shield, tick 2 may or may not go depending on the fight and what's applied to you,etc.

Cinbri

Corruption Field > Shifting Standart ult. thats it.

Durham

Yes that's the sweet spot from what I have found to... but why run him at that point ... what do you have that separates the DK from other stam classes... You are nothing more then a weapon class with poor class synergies...
With the gutting of the passive and only 2 stam abilities which are dots which is a negative in PVP... DK has ventured into the catigory of the weakest pvp stam class....

Ep1kMalware

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@olsborg
Yeah we have minor mending via dragon's blood then again you're missing it. You're stating the minor mending so you expect every DK to slot dragon's blood then combine that with igneous shield which would top around 8k magicka. Stam DKs aren't going to destroy their resource pool just like that especially in PvP and PvE.

How in the world is helping hands over performing even at 50k stamina which would come out to 2,500 stamina at the cost of 4.4k-4.5k magicka at that point you'd get back 5k when you spend nearly 10k magicka. Even with that you would need to sacrifice a lot and gear it to that hulking set that provides max stamina so yet again it's impossible that it's over performing as you stated.

I might agree that isolated on its own, helping hands is only strong, not overpeforming, but put into a minmax build with a heavy armor stamdk who's also a redguard you could play a noregen build but still end up with better sustain then a medium armor regen build with 2500 stamregen. This is why ZOS nerfs the resource returns from passives, sure they might have overdone it, as usual, but some kindof nerf was needed.

Yet a stamsorc who can build completely on damage remains untouched. Also, since when do we dedicate nerfs and buffs based on min/max builds?

So why not add in min/max sorc whose loaded up to 50k magicka; why are his shields not nerfed? Something needs to be done about that but clearly its over looked and changes are made on classes and skills that are perfectly balanced.

The problem wasn't the DK passives it was idiotic sets like Hulking Draugr and necropotence for magicka counterparts etc.

Quit nerfing classes when the real problem is broken gear addition.

^this

Is worth another mention.

Valencer

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Yet Redguard + heavy armor + stam Sorc wasn't meta right?
Redguard + heavy armor + Stamplar wasn't Meta right??
Redguard + Heavy armor + Nightblade wasn't meta right??

We all know which class had the greatest sustain out of that bunch and let me tell you it's not the bloody DK especially with a dismal return of stamina from helping hands. On average based on most players having around 35k stamina pools, they'd get 1750 return on using igneous shield; so you can multiply it by two which would be 3500. No other class would get around 12k stamina when burning their magicka right??

There's pros and cons to each class. Stamina sorcs ultimately have better sustain that doesnt rely on ultimates but at the end of the day the dark deal channel is counterable (even though it's difficult to do so consistently).

I mean, be honest... youre not going to run out of stamina with a high stamina pool, redguard and heavy armour unless you get poisoned. Instead of treating the root causes which is heavy armour and redguard they slammed the DK class with a sledgehammer. Gonna be fun to try and make that work on my medium armour imperial

You've seen it yourself when my Templar comes together with your Stam DK. It's pointless, neither of us will win. I'm massively in favour of the Major to Minor mending change on Templar. You'll just have to pop your shield immediately before vigor or rally from now on. I've always done that anyway, I didn't even know the Major Mending lasted after the shield popped.

Can only hope that we'll have a more fun meta post-morrowind. Maybe Ill regret saying it but Ill take anything over the mess we have with Homestead now.

Durham

Valencer wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

Yet Redguard + heavy armor + stam Sorc wasn't meta right?
Redguard + heavy armor + Stamplar wasn't Meta right??
Redguard + Heavy armor + Nightblade wasn't meta right??

We all know which class had the greatest sustain out of that bunch and let me tell you it's not the bloody DK especially with a dismal return of stamina from helping hands. On average based on most players having around 35k stamina pools, they'd get 1750 return on using igneous shield; so you can multiply it by two which would be 3500. No other class would get around 12k stamina when burning their magicka right??

There's pros and cons to each class. Stamina sorcs ultimately have better sustain that doesnt rely on ultimates but at the end of the day the dark deal channel is counterable (even though it's difficult to do so consistently).

I mean, be honest... youre not going to run out of stamina with a high stamina pool, redguard and heavy armour unless you get poisoned. Instead of treating the root causes which is heavy armour and redguard they slammed the DK class with a sledgehammer. Gonna be fun to try and make that work on my medium armour imperial

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@WillhelmBlack

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

At least mag DK got a small boost to Stam return. That should compensate for some of the block nerf.

I must say I'm not particularly disappointed with any of the nerfs to each of the classes but I can say that Stamina Templar has taken the biggest nerf, not Stam DK.

Yeah see that's a perspective of not playing Stamina DK and shouldn't justify these changes as being 'fair'. What is being done is no sustain for Stamina DK whatsoever, sure Mag DK gets some sustain boost but remember now you lose major mending overall and with that goes your survivability. Heck if these changes go through I cannot play my Mag DK as a healer in trials or dungeons anymore since I won't get that 6 second boost reliably since igneous shield's shield is so bloody lackluster it'll drop when a chicken hits it.

You're also wrong Stam DK has taken the biggest hit as we've been consistently nerf'd while Stamplar got some improvements last patch. If you feel otherwise feel free to come cite me some quotes because I just checked and didn't see a damn improvement for my Stamina DK.

Honestly, you're kicking off too early. We have a few weeks of PTS ahead. Stam DK was a massive problem in PvP in regards to their infinite sustain. They'll now have to think of a way of sustaining instead of just stacking 40-50k stamina and let the class do all of its sustaining for them. For PvE, I think you need to catch up on a few Youtube videos, there are many unkillable Stam DK builds out there.

It might be that the nerfs are completely overkill. We'll find out very soon.

Redguard + heavy armour allowed stamina DKs to sustain perfectly with high max stamina and low regen. These battle roar and helping hands nerfs have a huge impact on stamina DK builds not crutching on those 2 things on the live server.

DK Major Mending might as well be non-existent in PvP now too, because the average DK PvP build has igneous shields that can be removed with a light attack.

Anyway, there's no point QQing about it so I won't. In typical ZOS fashion, they hit everything with a sledgehammer.

Major Mending really shouldn't exist in PvP though. ESO is the only PvP game I've played that allows you to sit in the middle of a group pounding the #%*$ out of you whilst you press 2 buttons and hold block.

Yeah, it would be nice if PvP took a bit more skill than that.

Healing is the main defense a DK has in the current meta though. Just because that got paired with insane block sustain because of heavy armour overbuffing doesnt really justify gutting the healing like that.

Wardens will be able to proc major mending for 6 seconds when they heal themselves or allies when theyre under 50% health. Seems similar to me

No reason to run the stam DK in medium .. helping hands is toast ..your healing is down 25% and cost 30% more if you take a hit Roll Dodging is not effective unless you can find a tree or rock somewhere... Yes you have a nice ultimate leap but battle roar also took a big hit..... I duel last night my bothers night blade before it was a decent fight and I would beat him 90% of the time... now he obliterated me no contest ... dark cloak and roll dodge trumped my defenses ... if I did not break fear im dead ... keep in mind break free was moved from roll dodge...

Tan9oSuccka

So, they decided Stam DK needed a drastic nerf based on what exactly?

Let's make Tanking even less appealing than it already is. Good lord.

This will hurt the game more than catering again to a small percentage of yolo swag PVP people. They will just move along to the next cheese build Deltia told them about. Meanwhile, everyone else suffers.

I heard a guy on mic the other night that was new and came from WOW. He said he enjoyed the game somewhat, but was frustrated that he can never get a group. (Group finder, lack of tanks).

Durham

Yes totally agree this is way to extreme never seen a nerf bat swing this hard in this game .... Magicka DK took a hit but nothing compared to the stam DK... I really do not think this was intended...

LorDrek

Need ultimate low cost from s&b tava+bloodspawn and spam ultimate.

Durham

Yes but this is not really a available to stam DKs... Magicka DKs were hit but again nothing like your stam brothers..

BuggeX

NIice nerf to all mag dks.... our Overall costs are allready insane and the only aviable sustain is Battle Roar.
also with the next nerf to block, that drain 4 times Stamina insteed 2 times in a sec... well how should you Play mdk now?

mby nerf sorc shields and any other Major def mechanic to.

why should i not be allowed to refelct or block sorc attacks while they can infinit shildstack thorught my dots?

there are allready dead sentence skills to block that hit insane, eye of the noobs, purifing light, curse. all that kill you in block.
mby i will just respect to Stamina and snipe as wroble wants...

not to Forget the ha armor nerf.

there is absolut no Point in mdk aigan. you wont have any sustain anymore.

no dmg , no execute, and no no more sustain. a complet uselles class aigan. GJ @ZOS_BrianWheeler how do you plan to kill even a Little skilled player now?

ArconSeptim

The tanks should have been since day one a separate class and role decision with role specific abilities and possibilities, with class mixing and weapons there will be never a balance in the game!

Durham

It's actually worse if your a stam a DK.... this has completely devastated this class

WillhelmBlack

MaxwellC wrote: »

@WillhelmBlack
So much for those videos but on to what you just stated about using igneous shield with vigor,etc.

You do know DoTs do not ignore shields right? So if I'm Dotted I use igneous shield and boom it's gone lol.. I can see if the shield was somewhat strong but like I stated before a chicken can hit you once and that is gone, now if a DoT is applied you no longer get major mending unless you apply it while the tick is occurring e.g. Vigor tick 1, applies igneous shield, tick 2 may or may not go depending on the fight and what's applied to you,etc.

Yeah I know all that I have 2 DK's that both use Igneous, I have only ever used it straight before casting a heal. I put about 40 points into bastion to get a larger shield so it isn't popped as quickly. It works at the moment, I'll check PTS later to see if there is any difference in my method.

I think what we'll see here is a separation of Stam DK'S that want to tank (50k health for appropriate shield size and high regens) and DK's that want to deal damage but will have sacrifice sustain to achieve higher damage stats. Like the old days.

Do I really need to fill your thread with Alcast, Crescent, Kodi, Jules build videos? They all have Stam DK builds that have infinite sustain and high damage. They basically all consist of 1 proc set, a damage set and an ulti regen set.

I will leave this memorable video from a while ago though...

https://youtu.be/wzvPnf5wlzk

That's infinite sustain btw.

Toc de Malsvi

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@WillhelmBlack
So much for those videos but on to what you just stated about using igneous shield with vigor,etc.

You do know DoTs do not ignore shields right? So if I'm Dotted I use igneous shield and boom it's gone lol.. I can see if the shield was somewhat strong but like I stated before a chicken can hit you once and that is gone, now if a DoT is applied you no longer get major mending unless you apply it while the tick is occurring e.g. Vigor tick 1, applies igneous shield, tick 2 may or may not go depending on the fight and what's applied to you,etc.

Yeah I know all that I have 2 DK's that both use Igneous, I have only ever used it straight before casting a heal. I put about 40 points into bastion to get a larger shield so it isn't popped as quickly. It works at the moment, I'll check PTS later to see if there is any difference in my method.

I think what we'll see here is a separation of Stam DK'S that want to tank (50k health for appropriate shield size and high regens) and DK's that want to deal damage but will have sacrifice sustain to achieve higher damage stats. Like the old days.

Do I really need to fill your thread with Alcast, Crescent, Kodi, Jules build videos? They all have Stam DK builds that have infinite sustain and high damage. They basically all consist of 1 proc set, a damage set and an ulti regen set.

I will leave this memorable video from a while ago though...

https://youtu.be/wzvPnf5wlzk

That's infinite sustain btw.

That video is from pre-homestead.

Durham

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

MaxwellC wrote: »

@WillhelmBlack
So much for those videos but on to what you just stated about using igneous shield with vigor,etc.

You do know DoTs do not ignore shields right? So if I'm Dotted I use igneous shield and boom it's gone lol.. I can see if the shield was somewhat strong but like I stated before a chicken can hit you once and that is gone, now if a DoT is applied you no longer get major mending unless you apply it while the tick is occurring e.g. Vigor tick 1, applies igneous shield, tick 2 may or may not go depending on the fight and what's applied to you,etc.

Yeah I know all that I have 2 DK's that both use Igneous, I have only ever used it straight before casting a heal. I put about 40 points into bastion to get a larger shield so it isn't popped as quickly. It works at the moment, I'll check PTS later to see if there is any difference in my method.

I think what we'll see here is a separation of Stam DK'S that want to tank (50k health for appropriate shield size and high regens) and DK's that want to deal damage but will have sacrifice sustain to achieve higher damage stats. Like the old days.

Do I really need to fill your thread with Alcast, Crescent, Kodi, Jules build videos? They all have Stam DK builds that have infinite sustain and high damage. They basically all consist of 1 proc set, a damage set and an ulti regen set.

I will leave this memorable video from a while ago though...

https://youtu.be/wzvPnf5wlzk

That's infinite sustain btw.

Most of what you see in those videos are clueless players .. Against a half decent opponent it's nothing like what you see in videoes... Videos are edited .... does not matter honestly it's broke now ...

kadar

both classes are innately support based while NBs & Sorcs are more DPS

Falssssssse. I can't even handle how false this is....

kadar

Helping Hands is already a minuscule Stamina return, even for Stamknights. Battle Roar is powerful, but it's also the only thing that MagKnights have for sustain, and nerfing it is especially horrible when you consider that the class fights with attrition. How can you win through attrition if you always have worse sustain than your opponent?

Helping Hands will net you 2,000 Stam with ~40k Max Stam. That's hardly minuscule.

Battle Roar will return more Health and Stamina for mDKs now. The change is part of a overarching combat change to prevent resource return from stacking 1 attribute to high heaven.

Winning through attrition is the old DK way. With buffs to whip, Leap, Flame staff, the popularity of BSW, and a BoL-esqe health, mDKs are burstier than ever in PVP.

Durham

The_Outsider wrote: »

Helping Hands is already a minuscule Stamina return, even for Stamknights. Battle Roar is powerful, but it's also the only thing that MagKnights have for sustain, and nerfing it is especially horrible when you consider that the class fights with attrition. How can you win through attrition if you always have worse sustain than your opponent?

Helping Hands will net you 2,000 Stam with ~40k Max Stam. That's hardly minuscule.

Battle Roar will return more Health and Stamina for mDKs now. The change is part of a overarching combat change to prevent resource return from stacking 1 attribute to high heaven.

Winning through attrition is the old DK way. With buffs to whip, Leap, Flame staff, the popularity of BSW, and a BoL-esqe health, mDKs are burstier than ever in PVP.

Umm no ...not 2000 it's more like 1000..... max stam has nothing to do with it now it's level based... you get a break even at around 18k stam.... Battle Roar returns less stam .... your major mending is gutted... cost of block is x2 ... 30% increase the cost vigor ..... 10% more for all stam abilities...

I agree that magicka DKs did not take it on the chin as much as stam did .... as a class stam DKs are hurting