Blazing Spear Nerf

Ron_Burgundy_79

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Yes Templar lost a slow and hard to target CC and I agree the nerf was uncalled for but saying it's impossible for a Magicka Templar to solo PvP is complete and utter rubbish. In fact, I'm finding my Magplar's damage to be the highest it's ever been. The change to Purifying Light is actually quite over powered and makes 1vX a hell of a lot easier. I just hope they don't nerf that.

So they took away 1 of the 3 CC's available but massively buffed Javelin's speed. Blazing Spear wasn't a fantastic CC anyway, it didn't drop block or CC multiple players and it was hard AF to actually hit someone with.

I'd bet money they ain't gonna change it back. I wouldn't keep pestering or get your hopes up.

Please post evidence of said "1vX."

Blazing spear was the most reliable cc we had. That's the overwhelming consensus within the Templar community. That's not my opinion. Ask our fellow forum magplars. @Joy_Division @utb99 @LordSlif

Increasing the speed of javelin didn't help with shuffle procs or reflects. Anyone worth a damn will still block or dodge it.

I will continue to complain about this change until it's fixed or I quit the game. Unfotunately for the minority that disagree with me om this topic, neither are likely to happen anytime soon.

Idinuse

Paraflex wrote: »

Templars don't need every tool in the game like a blazing shard stun. It was a PvP nerf and a PvE buff deal with it.

Says the one with characters of every class in the game but only a Templar healer. What a joke. You guys are so scared of the Templar class it's a comedy in itself. None of you are satisfied until the Templar class presents no threat to you what so ever and you are able to one or two shoot every one of them. You sure are "excellent players" all of you, having no clue what so ever how to counter the most basic Templar skills. It's pathetic. Especially given all the stam "cancer" that's out there still.

WillhelmBlack

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Yes Templar lost a slow and hard to target CC and I agree the nerf was uncalled for but saying it's impossible for a Magicka Templar to solo PvP is complete and utter rubbish. In fact, I'm finding my Magplar's damage to be the highest it's ever been. The change to Purifying Light is actually quite over powered and makes 1vX a hell of a lot easier. I just hope they don't nerf that.

So they took away 1 of the 3 CC's available but massively buffed Javelin's speed. Blazing Spear wasn't a fantastic CC anyway, it didn't drop block or CC multiple players and it was hard AF to actually hit someone with.

I'd bet money they ain't gonna change it back. I wouldn't keep pestering or get your hopes up.

Please post evidence of said "1vX."

Blazing spear was the most reliable cc we had. That's the overwhelming consensus within the Templar community. That's not my opinion. Ask our fellow forum magplars. @Joy_Division @utb99 @LordSlif

Increasing the speed of javelin didn't help with shuffle procs or reflects. Anyone worth a damn will still block or dodge it.

I will continue to complain about this change until it's fixed or I quit the game. Unfotunately for the minority that disagree with me om this topic, neither are likely to happen anytime soon.

I guess it's preference then. I was a Blazing Spear spammer (just ask anyone PC EU haha) but the change to Javelin honestly IMO has made a 1v1/1vX a little easier. I keep it on my back bar (get the blocking passive) for a quick weapon swap cancel and the speed it hits in close range is incredible and almost guaranteed. DK's can reflect but most DK's don't use wings anymore, it's easy to tell early on in a fight any way and not hard to keep check on.

We have tools to beat DK's besides Javelin. Purifying Light, Sweep, RD, superior mag sustain and Ritual. In our guild duels I lost to over 75% of the Templars I fought on my DK because of Purifying Ritual alone. There was no answer to it. On MY Templar I beat all of them bar one guy who is a keen duellist and also a Templar main.

The good thing about Blazing Spear was chucking them into zergs and it couldn't be reflected but it was clunky, the stun was RNG, you couldn't throw the spear off a damn ledge, it ended up in your foot! I prefer the buffed Javelin and you can throw people OFF a ledge as a nice bonus!

I only know of Joy Division but I bet the the other two haven't even played Magicka Templar for as long as I have. I'd also even go as far to say they are probably bias Templar mains. I don't know, all I can say is, maybe it is just personal preference. I see a lot more Templars doing well on their own or as a pair nowadays compared to 1 or 2 years ago and having a lot of fun while they're at it.

utb99

Magplars in 1v1 situations are pretty powerful. Purifying Light, Soul Assault, Javelin, etc. are all strong abilities that are hard to counter. In group play, PotL and PL are amazing and pretty much guarantees a kill.
However, this discussion is mostly about Magplars in solo situations.
@WillhelmBlack
I'm a very good dueler on my Magplar and I can beat pretty much every top tier player no matter the class. Hell I beat Sypherpk when he played on X1 back in 1.6 on my magicka templar when I had only 100 CP at most.

Anyway I don't put much stock in Dueling nowadays due to infinite resources, proc sets, etc. ESO pvp wasn't designed around 1v1 and we shouldn't judge a class by its performance in duels (for example M. NB is amazing in 1v1 situations but is terrible in 1vX situations without VD Bombing).

Javelin is good but like @Ron_Burgundy_79 mentioned it's costly and shuffable. Blazing Spear went through D-Roll and centered on you. While true the stun was random, Often I casted the ability two or three times. This pretty much guaranteed I stunned the right guy. You cant do this with Javelin. You'll probably end up hitting a target you stunned already or you'll miss. BS was much more reliable.

Knocking oppenents off ledges is situational. Most of the time you're not on or under the Bridge or in a tower. You are LoSing behind a rock or tree with a group on you.

I assume by Ritual you mean the damage morph? It's not applicable in solo play for obvious reasons. If you mean extended ritual then I don't understand what you mean....

I have every character except Stam DK (currently grinding one atm). I've mained Magplar since console release, but I played Stamblade until Orsinium, Stam Sorc during Orsinium, and my main alt class is Stamplar (since DB). I don't really like Mag Sorc play style and my Magblade is an imperial so I avoid playing on him. M. DK is pretty fun but I'm not amazing on him

utb99

I don't want to beat a dead horse, Blazing Spear will most likely stay the same (Not happy about it and still don't agree with the change. The Devs didn't even give a reason for the change). Just give Luminous a stun and remove the useless Disorient.

utb99

As seen above, the Devs will change features if there is an "overwhelming community response". They found a way to mediate between pvp and pve, don't say its impossible.
They even listed a reason why did what they did what they did (I actually highly approve of this. Dialogue with your players only makes the game better).

the_man_of_steal

One of the two morphs needs to stun... This is a horrible change @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert PLEASE give us a stun.

Joy_Division

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Yes Templar lost a slow and hard to target CC and I agree the nerf was uncalled for but saying it's impossible for a Magicka Templar to solo PvP is complete and utter rubbish. In fact, I'm finding my Magplar's damage to be the highest it's ever been. The change to Purifying Light is actually quite over powered and makes 1vX a hell of a lot easier. I just hope they don't nerf that.

So they took away 1 of the 3 CC's available but massively buffed Javelin's speed. Blazing Spear wasn't a fantastic CC anyway, it didn't drop block or CC multiple players and it was hard AF to actually hit someone with.

I'd bet money they ain't gonna change it back. I wouldn't keep pestering or get your hopes up.

Please post evidence of said "1vX."

Blazing spear was the most reliable cc we had. That's the overwhelming consensus within the Templar community. That's not my opinion. Ask our fellow forum magplars. @Joy_Division @utb99 @LordSlif

Increasing the speed of javelin didn't help with shuffle procs or reflects. Anyone worth a damn will still block or dodge it.

I will continue to complain about this change until it's fixed or I quit the game. Unfotunately for the minority that disagree with me om this topic, neither are likely to happen anytime soon.

I guess it's preference then. I was a Blazing Spear spammer (just ask anyone PC EU haha) but the change to Javelin honestly IMO has made a 1v1/1vX a little easier. I keep it on my back bar (get the blocking passive) for a quick weapon swap cancel and the speed it hits in close range is incredible and almost guaranteed. DK's can reflect but most DK's don't use wings anymore, it's easy to tell early on in a fight any way and not hard to keep check on.

We have tools to beat DK's besides Javelin. Purifying Light, Sweep, RD, superior mag sustain and Ritual. In our guild duels I lost to over 75% of the Templars I fought on my DK because of Purifying Ritual alone. There was no answer to it. On MY Templar I beat all of them bar one guy who is a keen duellist and also a Templar main.

The good thing about Blazing Spear was chucking them into zergs and it couldn't be reflected but it was clunky, the stun was RNG, you couldn't throw the spear off a damn ledge, it ended up in your foot! I prefer the buffed Javelin and you can throw people OFF a ledge as a nice bonus!

I only know of Joy Division but I bet the the other two haven't even played Magicka Templar for as long as I have. I'd also even go as far to say they are probably bias Templar mains. I don't know, all I can say is, maybe it is just personal preference. I see a lot more Templars doing well on their own or as a pair nowadays compared to 1 or 2 years ago and having a lot of fun while they're at it.

I do agree there is a lot of personal preference here, but I do not like Javelin. I think the skill's main function is providing laughter for knocking people off the Bleakers roof. It's an expensive skill that does meh damage and all it does is stuns. And it probably won't stun me because I use defensive posture. Even when I do get stunned by it, all I do is CC break and am pretty cool with it because the 7 seconds of immunity I get is almost worth it. It is rare that I am stunned by this ability and it contributes to me death. What I can say is the best part of this ability is that it prevents me from killing the templar's allies. While that is useful and Id almost argue what the devs intended with the skill, that's not my MO in PvP so I don't use Javelin. When I think of the CCs that are effective, all of them do something else debilitating in addition to the stun: Fear, Fossilize, Tremorscale, the Eternal Hunt Set, (not even a hard CC lol), all of these I find much more dangerous.

I don't think a skilled DK player should die to a templar. Yes, templars can screw over DKs with purify; but let's just take a second to analyze what's going on with a Purify spamming Templar:

• You surredner the intitive to the DK.
• You do no damage to the DK
• You do not even inconvenience the DK
• (Maybe) you heal the DK since Embers expires?
• The DK can simply recast Burning Embers, which is a lot cheaper than purify.

And let's not pretend the DK can't screw over a Templar: Talon and move behind to start whipping. OK so the templar casts purify. The DK gets the better of that exchange. Fossilize is a devastating CC that temps have no equivalent.

When I fight an DK opponent of similar skill, what invariably happens is neither of us can kill the other.

I do think templars who relied on Blazing Spear for a stun were in general asking for trouble because it wasn't easy to hit players. But, I think you are underselling how versatile the skill was. The stun + ground AOE + burning lights procs + ranged AOE made the skill worth slotting ... though only so when in conjunction with each other. Now the spell is basically liquid lighting, a low damage ground DOT players can simply move out of - and they will without the stun. It's trash for PvP (though, like Liquid Lightning, great for PvE) and Luminous would also be trashed even if they made it a stun because it doesn't have the ground DoT + burning light procs.

I don't see the Blazing nerf as debilitating. It's annoying sure, but I think the Purify we got is a stronger spell so I'd say the past patch was a net gain.

Templars CCs are noncompetitive I don't even slot any.

I think Templars have always been a poor choice for 1vX because while the class is best suited for surviving against the X, it has very distinct phases of offensive and then defense, which leaves very little time to burst down opponents, something templars are not very good at doing in the first place and their execute is interruptible.

My main concern about templars is I think their current strong play in PvP is a byproduct of non-templar things such as the buffs to heavy armor, rising CP caps, and the easy availability of gear sets since One Tamriel. Think about it, the templar we had before the IC patch was *waaaay* better than what we got now, when nobody thought hey were OP or "cancers":

• RD much higher damage and couldn't even LOS it
• BOL extra heal, ignore LOS
• Purify purged meteors, frags, etc.
• Eclipse actually semi-useful skill
• Blazing Stun
• Toppling hit dodge-rollers
• Dawnbreaker, a great ultimate for templars who have terrible classs ultimates, scaled off magicka.
• Sweeps stunned
• Sweeps healed for more (note: three previously was a bug that sometimes allowed sweeps to heal for a lot more)
• Other stuff that not just off the top of my head

Would I trade the new Backlash, 10% extra damage on Dark Flare, and the current longer ranged javelin? Wouldn't even give it a second thought.

Ron_Burgundy_79

Thank you @Joy_Division and @utb99 for sharing your knowledge. Hopefully the past few posts will be reviewed by the right person.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @Wrobel

DisgracefulMind

Dread_Knight_N7 wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

It's not the Blazing Spear nerf that hooped Magicka Templars, it's the Radiant Destruction nerf.

This is very inaccurate. Beam is still a menace in PvP because can still hide behind a zerg and beam till the cows come home. I've said this many times, but the appropriate Nerf to Radiant Destruction is to lower the range to 15 meter and revert the damage Nerf. Within 15 meters you can gap close and get into bash distance. Now its easier to counter. The problem with radiant will always be:

Range>damage

Back on to topic, can we take a second to compare how terrible luminous shards is at even a disorient? It last 6 seconds...rune prison, fossilize, prolong suffering all last a minimum of 15 seconds. Also they're single target so you don't have to aim it...

Seriously, what are you guys on the combat team doing?

Been saying this forever. I wish ZoS would listen to actual Templar players, and not people who just hate Templars.

Really wish they'd give back the Blazing Spears cc. /:

As for 1vXing, it's possible, but I still find myself not wanting to because Magplar needs some serious class skills reworking. ZoS needs to realize that it is permablock builds that are overperforming, not the class. ><

DisgracefulMind

Joy_Division wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Yes Templar lost a slow and hard to target CC and I agree the nerf was uncalled for but saying it's impossible for a Magicka Templar to solo PvP is complete and utter rubbish. In fact, I'm finding my Magplar's damage to be the highest it's ever been. The change to Purifying Light is actually quite over powered and makes 1vX a hell of a lot easier. I just hope they don't nerf that.

So they took away 1 of the 3 CC's available but massively buffed Javelin's speed. Blazing Spear wasn't a fantastic CC anyway, it didn't drop block or CC multiple players and it was hard AF to actually hit someone with.

I'd bet money they ain't gonna change it back. I wouldn't keep pestering or get your hopes up.

Please post evidence of said "1vX."

Blazing spear was the most reliable cc we had. That's the overwhelming consensus within the Templar community. That's not my opinion. Ask our fellow forum magplars. @Joy_Division @utb99 @LordSlif

Increasing the speed of javelin didn't help with shuffle procs or reflects. Anyone worth a damn will still block or dodge it.

I will continue to complain about this change until it's fixed or I quit the game. Unfotunately for the minority that disagree with me om this topic, neither are likely to happen anytime soon.

I guess it's preference then. I was a Blazing Spear spammer (just ask anyone PC EU haha) but the change to Javelin honestly IMO has made a 1v1/1vX a little easier. I keep it on my back bar (get the blocking passive) for a quick weapon swap cancel and the speed it hits in close range is incredible and almost guaranteed. DK's can reflect but most DK's don't use wings anymore, it's easy to tell early on in a fight any way and not hard to keep check on.

We have tools to beat DK's besides Javelin. Purifying Light, Sweep, RD, superior mag sustain and Ritual. In our guild duels I lost to over 75% of the Templars I fought on my DK because of Purifying Ritual alone. There was no answer to it. On MY Templar I beat all of them bar one guy who is a keen duellist and also a Templar main.

The good thing about Blazing Spear was chucking them into zergs and it couldn't be reflected but it was clunky, the stun was RNG, you couldn't throw the spear off a damn ledge, it ended up in your foot! I prefer the buffed Javelin and you can throw people OFF a ledge as a nice bonus!

I only know of Joy Division but I bet the the other two haven't even played Magicka Templar for as long as I have. I'd also even go as far to say they are probably bias Templar mains. I don't know, all I can say is, maybe it is just personal preference. I see a lot more Templars doing well on their own or as a pair nowadays compared to 1 or 2 years ago and having a lot of fun while they're at it.

I don't think a skilled DK player should die to a templar. Yes, templars can screw over DKs with purify; but let's just take a second to analyze what's going on with a Purify spamming Templar:

I disagree completely here, Joy. In a duel with Magplar vs. MagDK, I've only lost to skilled MagDKs very few times. It's very easy to keep pressure on them while keeping extended ritual in a rotation to make sure they can't keep DoTs on you. With timed burst, they'll drop relatively quickly. The key in a magplar vs. magdk duel is to make them think they have the upperhand the entire time until your burst is lined up. It's been rare that I've lost to magDKs, even quite skilled ones that I have the utmost respect for. It's just easy to keep their pressure off of you, and easy for you to fool them into thinking you don't have pressure on them (:

Joshlenoir

So I play a magplar, started in shadows of the hist, loved it, then one tamriel came along giving us skoria buffs and I loved it even more, I mained a stamblade (still play him now, more than Templar for obvious reasons but it didn't always used to be that way) it was my second character (after nightblade) so it was a completely new setup and playstyle, kept me engaged for a long time.
Anyways I'll even admit magplars were at their absolute strongest in one tamriel, heavy armor Constitution and wrath nerf wasn't there, albiet they really weren't that big, blazing spear stunned, we were more Tanky, and we had the ability to play with or without a group if we chose to. Now when you see a magplar without a group if you're a player that knows what he's doing, two things might be going through your head "this is going to be a long fight" or "this is going to be an easy kill", reasons for this are even if you manage to fight a magplar nowadays, only the ones that have put in the time and effort to min max, theorycraft and dissect every possible build and setup in order to be a force to be reckoned with will still just barely measure up to players that put in half the effort, ESPECIALLY stamina players. Magplar right now is very good at three things in PvP : Hitting stationary targets, and Healing(tanking can be part of this too).
This is because the Devs have pigeonholed templars into becoming completely reliant on groups, templar is literally the best Xv1 ability spammer in the entire game, I'm serious. Roll a Templar in group, run no regen, maximize your damage, and make sure purifying light, eclipse, Jesus beam, javelin, dark flare, and reflective light(or vamp babe), are on your bar and I guarantee if you spam those behind your group you will never, ever have trouble with even the best 1vXers in the game, am I saying this because I roll in groups and do that? No, because 90% of the templars I see are and that's all they can do, Magicka templars now have just become group slaves for any of the three roles. I hear this phrase often : "I'm going to make a Magicka Templar, I want to start running in bigger groups more" and rightfully so, but I digress. The biggest problems I see with Magicka templars personally is this

- jabs is a wild card, you can go through an entire fight with using it 2-3 times, or win multiple fights because your target is locked down somehow or now moving out of the way (usually potatoes). It is a good form of DPS, but it is still unreliable outside of PvE, since the healing is abysmal unless you're puncturing sweeping an entire zerg which never happens. Try landing a full set of sweeps on any stamina class running shuffle, it barely happens unless they are locked down, and if shuffle procs you will miss multiple jabs within that small frame.
- this goes without saying but we have no reliable CLASS CC. Any competitive player knows this, anyone who says otherwise is most likely an Xv1 potato that thinks hitting people with javelin from behind their group counts as a reliable CC while taking 0 pressure. Javelin​ costs so much, it's dodgable, and it's only real combo is with dark flare and reflective light, you will never kill someone that knows how to cc break effectively by javelining them and then hitting sweeps until they die, Especially since it pushes them away from your sweeps radius. I have been using vampire drain and have been successful with it, I'm very good at CC breaking and when timed right I will stun enemies with absolutely no lag, however I'm not a robot, if I don't cancel it effectively the lag time before I can damage an opponent while damaging them with vamp drain is so large, still a useful skill though in this current patch, would give it a try.
- mag templars are useless​ without heavy armor Especially if you want to play small scale, I've seen very very few people pull off an effective Magicka Templar using light armor, and this is only possible with DW and resto staff with resto ulti slotted and spamming healing ward but still putting out damage. Only seen it in CP, in NO-CP it's not possible since your stamina will be gone after 2-3 CC's even with heavy attacking and never blocking.
- Magplars have nothing for mobility. You have to play a vampire for a Templar right now, it's virtually impossible not to if you're Magicka and it's sad, because unless you're a dark elf fire damage will hurt (Especially in no cp) and dawnbreaker still hit hard.

I play magplar in no cp more than I play in Cp and let me tell you something, if any of you think magplar cc is bad with cp, try playing in Azuras star where javelin still costs 3k stamina in light armor and little under 4k in heavy armor, and beam costs 4k+ Magicka. Every ability counts, hitting an easily dodgable reflectable javelin for a large portion of my Magicka pool isn't viable, this is where vamp drain is useful, costs less Tha. 2k Magicka and can't be dodged but can be blocked. Magplar in Azuras is one of the most difficult classes to successfully 1vX on, but relatively easy to play group with, depending on size of group and your opponents. ZoS restoring aura morph is useless in Azuras, costs over 3k Magicka to cast and only gives 400/s back to a person you are hitting, you'd have to be consistent hitting someone every second for just under 10 seconds to even get the Magicka back it used to cast the skill, let alone gain Magicka back from it. This is and has always been designed to be a "cast in the back of your zerg skill to benefit your group since you're a support player" skill.
I'll be honest though, magplar in CP can still be strong, you just have to know how to burst down targets effectively and most of all conserve your resources, I know in CP resource management can be abysmal but with magplar so many of your skills are underperforming you have to make everything count.
My current setup on magplar is
2skoria(or pirate skeleton when I know I'll be zergedd down or outnumbered, I actually run skeleton more than skoria lately since I solo or small scale) 5 Rattlecage , 3 lich rings, 1h and shield lich (powered and sturdy). Then a sharp VMA inferno staff.
I run on front bar: sweeps, ele drain(amazing skill), beam, purifying light, and reflective light. I don't run a gap closer Because the amount of Magicka it takes for such a lackluster skill isn't worth the burst I'd be missing with purifying.
Back bar I run : mist form, vampire drain(speed morph stacks with mist form), channel focus, Honor the death, and cleanse.
Do not run the vampire heroism morph because you have to channel it to get ultimate, useless unless you're a 60k blazing shield troll zerg tank spamming 1h shield ulti or bats. The speed morph gives minor expidition the second you cast it, so you can Ani cancel it very fast on someone while distancing yourself and get a quick mist form away.
What else.. I'm a dark elf, yeah that's about it. My cp tree is built for VMA, so all points into thaumaturge, elemental damage, Regen, cost reduction, Magicka and physical damage, 100 points each. I still wreck in PvP with 0 in critical resistance. Not because it's a good idea to do that, but because I mainly play Azuras and don't care enough to change it. My @ name is @joshlenoir, if you are having trouble with magplar or want to see me in action, run a couple duels, see if my setup would work, etc. Send me a whisper, or send me a whisper on forums! Thanks

usmcjdking

What is this nonsense about Javelin being bad? DW Stamplars have been using javelin as their bread and butter CC forever and it is functionally the same CC against a skilled opponent, albeit less dramatic vs potatoes who don't BFree. It's a tremendous skill and it was an easy carry over on my magplar.

I don't see the issue with javelin whatsoever, probably because it doesn't synergize with the whole "run away spamming spears shtick".

Ron_Burgundy_79

usmcjdking wrote: »

What is this nonsense about Javelin being bad? DW Stamplars have been using javelin as their bread and butter CC forever and it is functionally the same CC against a skilled opponent, albeit less dramatic vs potatoes who don't BFree. It's a tremendous skill and it was an easy carry over on my magplar.

I don't see the issue with javelin whatsoever, probably because it doesn't synergize with the whole "run away spamming spears shtick".

Binding javelin (stam morph) stuns for 3.5 seconds. Aurora javelin (magic morph) stuns for 1.8 seconds. That alone is a huge difference.

Stamplars also don't rely on javelin as a defensive cc. Stamplars can dodge roll and have shuffle to mitigate incoming damage. Magplars relied on blazing spear as a way to quickly transition from turtling to offense. We don't have that anymore.

Binding javelin costs between 800-1000 less than aurora javelin making a dodged/reflected/blocked javelin even more costly for magplars.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

What is this nonsense about Javelin being bad? DW Stamplars have been using javelin as their bread and butter CC forever and it is functionally the same CC against a skilled opponent, albeit less dramatic vs potatoes who don't BFree. It's a tremendous skill and it was an easy carry over on my magplar.

I don't see the issue with javelin whatsoever, probably because it doesn't synergize with the whole "run away spamming spears shtick".

Binding javelin (stam morph) stuns for 3.5 seconds. Aurora javelin (magic morph) stuns for 1.8 seconds. That alone is a huge difference.

Stamplars also don't rely on javelin as a defensive cc. Stamplars can dodge roll and have shuffle to mitigate incoming damage. Magplars relied on blazing spear as a way to quickly transition from turtling to offense. We don't have that anymore.

Binding javelin costs between 800-1000 less than aurora javelin making a dodged/reflected/blocked javelin even more costly for magplars.

Mages normally have bigger pools and higher regen then stamina builds so the point on skill cost is more then a bit miss lending.

Shuffle is a power ANY build can use it has a base duration of 20 seconds it's not more expensive then other stamina powers and yes I use it on Stamina, Mages and Tanks that you don't use it is on you Shuffle plus magic shields is an op combo.

Yes a longer stun is longer but you have the power to hit an undodgable and unrollable 36m (41m with PvP passive ) channeled excute.

Last point Sun Shield and both morphs are still good it's not the only power you need on your bar to rick roll a small group solo anymore but not being OP on it's own doesn't mean it not still good.

technohic

LOL?

Gripping Shards – Skewer enemies with icy shards in a 6-meter radius, dealing Frost Damage in the area to 6 targets every second over 12 seconds and reducing Movement Speed by 30% for 3 seconds. Damage done is based on your Max Health. On cast, enemies in the area also become immobilized for 3 seconds.

This looks more like what I would like than what blazing spear is now. Warden looks like it will be what I wished my Templar was. The ultimate in the ice tre sounds like empowering sweep on steroids, combined with EotS. Their defensive wards stick to them. They even have a stam heal. Didn't see a cleanse other than the free necht doing 1 thing at a time so; we still have that.

Joshlenoir

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

What is this nonsense about Javelin being bad? DW Stamplars have been using javelin as their bread and butter CC forever and it is functionally the same CC against a skilled opponent, albeit less dramatic vs potatoes who don't BFree. It's a tremendous skill and it was an easy carry over on my magplar.

I don't see the issue with javelin whatsoever, probably because it doesn't synergize with the whole "run away spamming spears shtick".

Binding javelin (stam morph) stuns for 3.5 seconds. Aurora javelin (magic morph) stuns for 1.8 seconds. That alone is a huge difference.

Stamplars also don't rely on javelin as a defensive cc. Stamplars can dodge roll and have shuffle to mitigate incoming damage. Magplars relied on blazing spear as a way to quickly transition from turtling to offense. We don't have that anymore.

Binding javelin costs between 800-1000 less than aurora javelin making a dodged/reflected/blocked javelin even more costly for magplars.

Mages normally have bigger pools and higher regen then stamina builds so the point on skill cost is more then a bit miss lending.

Shuffle is a power ANY build can use it has a base duration of 20 seconds it's not more expensive then other stamina powers and yes I use it on Stamina, Mages and Tanks that you don't use it is on you Shuffle plus magic shields is an op combo.

Yes a longer stun is longer but you have the power to hit an undodgable and unrollable 36m (41m with PvP passive ) channeled excute.

Last point Sun Shield and both morphs are still good it's not the only power you need on your bar to rick roll a small group solo anymore but not being OP on it's own doesn't mean it not still good.

Mages have bigger pools yes but higher Regen? Not sure about that, unless they are using witchmothers brew then the higher pool statement doesn't really stick. Running shuffle on a heavy armor mag temp while you have to constantly block all the hits and cc break is going to be the fastest stamina drain ever. Shuffle is good on stamina builds because they have the higher stamina pools and Regen, also cost reduction if they're in medium. It's the same reason you don't see stamina builds using harness or dampen Magicka, it just isn't viable in the long run because it will burn out your secondary resource that could be used for much more useful things (I.e staying alive). Like I said, we have very little reliable stuns, hitting Jesus beam doesn't work so well when you have multiple people in your face that can bash you immediately, Especially if it takes more than one Jesus beam tick to execute a target. Nothing you've presented really helps defend magplars in this patch. Also sun shield is just a high hp troll tank move that's useless on people that like to run legitimate well-rounded setups. Nobody with more than one brain cell is going to die to sun shield, you're better off using harnesses Magicka if it's a shield you're looking for.

Lore_lai

JD - the problem with Jav is it has so many counters and it costs so much for what it does that it's not a reliable CC.
It basically boils down to cost+utility vs. reliability.
Then it's completely counter-intuitive to the melee-type magplar and the stun on it is a ridiculous 1.8 seconds anyway. Heck if anything, the target starts getting up right as it hits the ground anyway.
Especially with some of us dropping the gap closer, it's just not worth it most of the time.
It's very good for xv1 ing people tho, but, then again, what isn't?
***
Honestly i am okay with how magplar is rn. It's is very strong once you go grp 2+. I get that people want it to be good solo, but then they would have to tweak out the grp capabilities, which are very strong.
And to all the peope saying - yeah you can still 1vx - well no sheet you can still do it. I run into nubies who have literally no clue what they are doing in Cyro, so many times - well no duh you can 1vx them. You can do that on any class.
1 cast of sweeps kills them - yeah, skills!

My issue is with people QQing and bitching about Templar being very OP when it's crutching on many things to achieve that perceived OPness (yes, I said it, read it out loud). Also yeah it's strong in group - git gud and get your own Templar
Vampire and Mist Form being one of those things. For the love of Akatosh, I would SO LOVE IT if one week ZoS would completely bug out Vampire and Mist Form with one of their patches.
Mist Form is such a carry skill it's not even funny. Pls @Wrobel , @ZOS_RichLambert - remove resource return while in Mist Form.
Constitution passive should *NOT* proc in Mist Form, Channeled Focus mag regen should not proc, pretty much any magicka regen from ANY source should be completely halted. It's ridiculous that you can proc resource return sets in mist form on top of Constitution. Not getting CC'd, snare removal/immunity (aside from the buggy ones that we all suffer from anyway) and insane mitigation should be its own reward. You should not be rewarded with resource returns too.

TLDR: ZoS FIX Mist Form resource returns, nerf carry skills/passives, nerf/(adjust how they interact) carry sets like Pirate Skeleton and Radioactive and then we'll talk.

MakoFore

i dont know why they nerfed it either- nobody complained about it- unlike jesus beam. every class needs reliable aoe stuns, dunno why they took it away.

Izaki

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

While the nerf to Blazing Spear wasn't necessary, it's a bit of a stretch to say Magplar isn't viable for solo PvP.

I'd like to see proof that anyone can 1vX on a magplar after the nerf. I've talked to the best templars on console and not a single one can truly 1vX anymore. Sure you can kill 2 or 3 potatoes, but that's not 1vXing.

*cough* purifying light *cough*

Purifying light cc's?

The claim was that you can't 1vX anymore without Blazing Shard's CC, not that Purifying Light CCs

The issue has never been a lack of damage. Templars lack mobility and quality cc's. 1vXing is not possible when a class has neither of those. Can you kill 2 or 3 potatoes still? Sure, but that's not 1vXing.

Killing potatoes is exactly 1vXing. You ain't gonna 1v6 good players.

technohic

Lore_lai wrote: »

JD - the problem with Jav is it has so many counters and it costs so much for what it does that it's not a reliable CC.
It basically boils down to cost+utility vs. reliability.
Then it's completely counter-intuitive to the melee-type magplar and the stun on it is a ridiculous 1.8 seconds anyway. Heck if anything, the target starts getting up right as it hits the ground anyway.
Especially with some of us dropping the gap closer, it's just not worth it most of the time.
It's very good for xv1 ing people tho, but, then again, what isn't?
***
Honestly i am okay with how magplar is rn. It's is very strong once you go grp 2+. I get that people want it to be good solo, but then they would have to tweak out the grp capabilities, which are very strong.
And to all the peope saying - yeah you can still 1vx - well no sheet you can still do it. I run into nubies who have literally no clue what they are doing in Cyro, so many times - well no duh you can 1vx them. You can do that on any class.
1 cast of sweeps kills them - yeah, skills!

My issue is with people QQing and bitching about Templar being very OP when it's crutching on many things to achieve that perceived OPness (yes, I said it, read it out loud). Also yeah it's strong in group - git gud and get your own Templar
Vampire and Mist Form being one of those things. For the love of Akatosh, I would SO LOVE IT if one week ZoS would completely bug out Vampire and Mist Form with one of their patches.
Mist Form is such a carry skill it's not even funny. Pls @Wrobel , @ZOS_RichLambert - remove resource return while in Mist Form.
Constitution passive should *NOT* proc in Mist Form, Channeled Focus mag regen should not proc, pretty much any magicka regen from ANY source should be completely halted. It's ridiculous that you can proc resource return sets in mist form on top of Constitution. Not getting CC'd, snare removal/immunity (aside from the buggy ones that we all suffer from anyway) and insane mitigation should be its own reward. You should not be rewarded with resource returns too.

TLDR: ZoS FIX Mist Form resource returns, nerf carry skills/passives, nerf/(adjust how they interact) carry sets like Pirate Skeleton and Radioactive and then we'll talk.

Nerfing mist form would end Templar for me. That may be the last thing that lets me actually engage a target in large fights and be able to maybe get away. At that point, hiding in a Zerg spamming BOL, Ritual, dark flare and RD might be the only way to fight in Cyrodiil

Lore_lai

technohic wrote: »

Nerfing mist form would end Templar for me. That may be the last thing that lets me actually engage a target in large fights and be able to maybe get away. At that point, hiding in a Zerg spamming BOL, Ritual, dark flare and RD might be the only way to fight in Cyrodiil

Playing Templar without Mist or Vampire at all is doable and no, you don't have to hide in a zerg.
People have this whole obsession with "getting away". Most of the time you will get caught and killed anyway - you're just gonna mist!Tree hump for a bit longer, or maybe your enemies get bored of chasing you like that. But then 50% (or more) of your time in Cyro consists of misting away...
80% of the Templars I see (who decide to engage without a zerg) are doing this: Toppling in (or sometimes just run in) -> proceed to do one Sweep (sometimes with a destro ulti on) -> do no damage or average -> mist mist mist -> weave some BoL in.
Or (are you at a resource?) -> charge in -> mist mist mist till you get to the tower -> mist mist mist inside the tower -> run away.
Sometimes if they have cooties sets they will sit there and hold block and spam BoL without even attempting to get away or do anything as if that proves something.

technohic

Lore_lai wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Nerfing mist form would end Templar for me. That may be the last thing that lets me actually engage a target in large fights and be able to maybe get away. At that point, hiding in a Zerg spamming BOL, Ritual, dark flare and RD might be the only way to fight in Cyrodiil

Playing Templar without Mist or Vampire at all is doable and no, you don't have to hide in a zerg.
People have this whole obsession with "getting away". Most of the time you will get caught and killed anyway - you're just gonna mist!Tree hump for a bit longer, or maybe your enemies get bored of chasing you like that. But then 50% (or more) of your time in Cyro consists of misting away...
80% of the Templars I see (who decide to engage without a zerg) are doing this: Toppling in (or sometimes just run in) -> proceed to do one Sweep (sometimes with a destro ulti on) -> do no damage or average -> mist mist mist -> weave some BoL in.
Or (are you at a resource?) -> charge in -> mist mist mist till you get to the tower -> mist mist mist inside the tower -> run away.
Sometimes if they have cooties sets they will sit there and hold block and spam BoL without even attempting to get away or do anything as if that proves something.

We are a magicka melee class outside of Zerg RD, BOL, spammer. Most fights in Cyrodiil get large quickly. If you engage their front line as a front line fighter you are going to get focus. The only way to do that and live is to escape. Unless you're a trollplar. Because that's so much better than a heal bot RD spammer.

Lore_lai

technohic wrote: »

We are a magicka melee class outside of Zerg RD, BOL, spammer. Most fights in Cyrodiil get large quickly. If you engage their front line as a front line fighter you are going to get focus. The only way to do that and live is to escape. Unless you're a trollplar. Because that's so much better than a heal bot RD spammer.

I know what we are.
My point wasn't that. My point is that most of the time if you're going to jump in like that just to mistspam away 2 seconds later - then wtf...Might as well not jump in at all.

technohic

Lore_lai wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

We are a magicka melee class outside of Zerg RD, BOL, spammer. Most fights in Cyrodiil get large quickly. If you engage their front line as a front line fighter you are going to get focus. The only way to do that and live is to escape. Unless you're a trollplar. Because that's so much better than a heal bot RD spammer.

I know what we are.
My point wasn't that. My point is that most of the time if you're going to jump in like that just to mistspam away 2 seconds later - then wtf...Might as well not jump in at all.

It's not a matter of jumping into the middle of the Zerg. They will have front line melee classes to. It's a matter of engaging in between 2 Zerg range fight in the no mans land. Probably better off as DK with wings to defend their range hitting you but it's still something we need to do as well. Where the DK can flap his wings for all the snipes and frags coming his way on his way back to his Zerg; I rely on mist and currently 1 hand shield ultimate to fight for less than 10 seconds before needing to retreat. Without mist; I would basically not be able to do much but engage in range fight and frankly; that's a lot better as mag sorc.

Edit: now that I think about it, the way my Templar is set up; I'd be better off as a DK anyway. Suppose they can do what they want. Im pretty much over the class

Lore_lai

technohic wrote: »

It's not a matter of jumping into the middle of the Zerg. They will have front line melee classes to. It's a matter of engaging in between 2 Zerg range fight in the no mans land. Probably better off as DK with wings to defend their range hitting you but it's still something we need to do as well. Where the DK can flap his wings for all the snipes and frags coming his way on his way back to his Zerg; I rely on mist and currently 1 hand shield ultimate to fight for less than 10 seconds before needing to retreat. Without mist; I would basically not be able to do much but engage in range fight and frankly; that's a lot better as mag sorc.

I suppose I should have made myself clear then - I'm not talking about Zerg surfing which is basically what you're describing now.
I'm talking about that random Templar jumping on 2 people only to mist away. And I see these a lot in Cyro.
Then it's just a matter of "oh I'm gonna LoS mist because I don't know how to pick my battles, but don't worry - I'll LoS here until I have 10 friends with me"

ScooberSteve

Templars have the best single target cc in the game without a doubt - Javelin

ScooberSteve

The reason we get no buffs is because we get to stand there all day and spam BOL

technohic

ScooberSteve wrote: »

The reason we get no buffs is because we get to stand there all day and spam BOL

Yeah and I think that's always been a reason I've lost interest in the class. It's not what I want to do; but given it's the strength of the class, everything else is going to be lackluster. I'm afraid even that is going to be a big target come arenas. Eventually the whining about healing will bring even more PVP healing reduction (already is with major heal debuffs coming more common) so there will be at least one cycle where healing will be down and none of the other Templar weaknesses will be addressed.

Joy_Division

Lore_lai wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Nerfing mist form would end Templar for me. That may be the last thing that lets me actually engage a target in large fights and be able to maybe get away. At that point, hiding in a Zerg spamming BOL, Ritual, dark flare and RD might be the only way to fight in Cyrodiil

Playing Templar without Mist or Vampire at all is doable and no, you don't have to hide in a zerg.
People have this whole obsession with "getting away". Most of the time you will get caught and killed anyway - you're just gonna mist!Tree hump for a bit longer, or maybe your enemies get bored of chasing you like that. But then 50% (or more) of your time in Cyro consists of misting away...
80% of the Templars I see (who decide to engage without a zerg) are doing this: Toppling in (or sometimes just run in) -> proceed to do one Sweep (sometimes with a destro ulti on) -> do no damage or average -> mist mist mist -> weave some BoL in.
Or (are you at a resource?) -> charge in -> mist mist mist till you get to the tower -> mist mist mist inside the tower -> run away.
Sometimes if they have cooties sets they will sit there and hold block and spam BoL without even attempting to get away or do anything as if that proves something.

I usually agree with everything you say. I can't speak for anyone else who plays a templar or uses Mist Form, but the manner is which you are describing the use of the ability is not why i put it on my bar and if I know I'm going to die I could care less about getting away.

Mobility and re-positioning in this game are ridiculously important because there are no cooldowns on roots, you spend the majority of time in PvP under some form of a snare, you can eat 50K damage from a single destro ultimate in a matter of seconds, all of this goes beyond just trying to survive while outnumbered. A magic templar has zero mobility and if Mist Form were changed in the manner you propose, I would not even bother trying to "git gud" because the game would be so frustrating that I would never bother to open world with my templar again. I have better things to do with my leisure time than to bang my head against what I think are totally busted game mechanics: double break free from DK fossilize, >40% snare + encase, multiple destro ultimates going off, etc. Completely shutting down magicka regen is rather prohibitive as it is; since mist form still takes damage, still is subject to gap closer snare, still subjected to any proc themselves that isn't movement related, I don't think uncoupling beneficial procs is the way to go. None of this even considers that just by being a vampire there are real disadvantages independent of the skill: 25% against fire is no joke since that has always been the default go-to damage and if Dawnbreaker is not the best ultiamte in the game, it is definitely among the most efficient - dealing with that is not worth +10% extra regen or a little extra mitigation when you're practically dead in a game oriented around burst. When Wrobel puts down his stam sorc and does his job to make an alliance war skill that allows magicka players some form of mobility without being an undead abomination, then maybe I'll rethink my position here.

I don't deny that are craven templars who use mist form the way you describe, but who cares? NBs with Cloak and Sorcs with Streak do the same thing ... and at least their craven skills actually perform other functions - which Mist Form does not, so I don't think nerfing it because of how some not very good payers try to use it is the way to go.