Cyrodiil Performance Test and Double AP Event

olsborg

bikerangelo wrote: »

Now everyone gets to feel how imbalanced poisons and siege are without CP.

This. If they removed resource cost poisons and ...did something to siege. Id be all for removing CP from the game permanently, CP is also why the zone pve is sooo f boring cause every mob die to 2 hits.

dotme

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@MyNameIsElias We are aware of that behavior and will be adjusting values of Outposts, Resources and Keeps after the event.

Hopefully by tying them to keep/resource level so a level 5 keep still gives max AP rewards for a capture - some incentive to take objectives that help your whole faction rather than farming bridges for AP for hours on end is still needed IMHO

Wollust

I like this approach.
But please, adjust the value for the keeps/outposts/resources before the event. Or don't double the AP there at least.

KeiruNicrom

An excellent step towards getting the community to help with making ESO a great game. More stuff like this please!

However i must suggest against removing CP from all campaigns. A temporary new campaign with no CP, no Imperial City access and twice the AP gains would be a better move i believe. Removing CP from the CP campaigns will just cause those who prefer CP to stop PVPing for a while out of protest and/or complain everywhere they can. After all, they built their characters with CP passives in mind and so removing those passives would restrict what their builds can do causing them to have less enjoyment. At least keep one campaign CP to compare the differences in performance directly

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Personally i'd suggest scrap the idea of keeping the current campaigns it will be terrible with all the resource and bleakers flipping.
For a true test you need a pvp campaign where pvp actually occurs.

1. Make this a special event campaign for the week and block entry to the other campaigns. (note: reset those other campaigns so that all factions own equal resources and keeps and let them keep ticking up it wont affect them at all then).

2. Change the rewards to something decent, We don't need double keep and resource AP we need an incentive to actually PVP. For example. Change the rewards for the week to be tokens, these tokens should be awarded based off faction position and scoreboard position.
Tokens can be handed in to a special vendor in exchange for legendary upgrade mats, VDSA weapons and Monster Masks and Shoulders. (Can help you come up with costings if you need).

The Next week make it a CP campaign. Same rule set. Allow tokens to stack so players can work towards a bigger item if they didn't get so many the first week.

Then go back to the way campaigns were and evaluate your findings. I understand it is a bit more work (you don't even need to necessarily implement the reward vendor for now just tell us what it will be and keep track of the rewards we are owed for it.

Overall I'm not particularly excited for this test on live in its current state. It will cause far more issues than it solves at this point. As we have seen from the actions taken against the BB mine users there is no incentive not to AP swap aside from personal honour as Alliance ranks were not removed from them so I expect to see this increase drastically.

Also having to change builds on multiple chars and upgrade etc for a 1 week event with no incentive (AP isn't an incentive to PVPers imo)

Edit: Oh and for the love of god disable poisons for this test please...

I hope this decision is to look towards 'fixing' any problems rather than actually removing the games only character advancement for PVPers

Vurian97

Paraflex wrote: »

Makes you wonder if the meeting at corporate with all the streamers/known players that they discussed PvP with no CP and thought of all the good that would come of it.

I'd say it's likely as server performance isn't great and the games better off on balance with no CP involved.

Fengrush regularly plays in Azura's Star and Deltia has stated that he wished Azura's Star was more competitive. Both of them like No-CP PvP enough to try to motivate people to play in them.

Gan Xing

Derra wrote: »

Also what kind of nonscientific approach for the topic is that. You simply won´t get any worthwhile results @ZOS_BrianWheeler because people can not play the same way with CP compared to playing without.

They simply can´t use their skills in the same way.

Actually, it is very scientific. They observed a phenomenon and they are testing it throughout multiple different servers. Assuming that Azura's Star is the control (as it always was a non-cp campaign), they get to see how Haderus and True Flame is affected by the 1 week change, and then compare it to Azura's Star.

Also, I can assure the console that they won't have to deal with this test.

leeux

One basic principle of engineering with dealing with non-linear dynamic systems is (which a MMO is): Never change more than one variable at a time IF you want to extract useful information from a test.

IMHO, what you're doing serves no useful purpose... a better way of dealing with this would have been, disable PARTS of the CP trees (specially the PASSIVES, and not all at once) and put different test setups (with some parts enabled and other disabled) in different campaigns to see how the changes behave...

With your current test plan, if you conclude that passives are to blame: how would you know WHICH one of them is the culprit over the others?

Also, I agree with the people saying that No-CP fundamentally modifies the way people have to build and because of that it alters the behaviour because some builds cease to be viable, and TTK is lowered for normal people (as in, the people that zerg surf and only play PvP occasionally just for the fun... you know, probably the majority of people in Cyro), since they probably won't change gear nor make new gear for the event, and thus, their effective performance will be reduced, comparatively speaking.

Of course, this is all my opinion... and nevertheless, I really hope this test is fruitful and afterwards, you can find a way to make PvP great again [1]

[1] I'm sorry! Excuse the pun

Brutusmax1mus

Half of my builds will be nearly ineffective. Cp opens up a lot of build diversity. Azuras had its own small subset of effective sets, which further limit or limited selections...

Obviously we won't be able to test this accurately either. We won't be able to use as many skills for as long a period. So compound that with the huge groups of people and of course you get better results when you take away that capability.

It's obvious the micro calculations are the issue, but i don't think zos is up to the task of rebalancing the entire game, which is what would have to happen if they removed cp from PvP. There would be a handful of usable sets to use.

NightbladeMechanics

@Derra so cp facilitating spamming healing springs for 10 minutes isn't cp contributing to lag if the healing springs spam contributes to lag?

It sounds like your sorc build is refined to take advantage of the stat inflation that cp gives us. No wonder you're so against it! Make a few slight adjustments to trade some of that crit for regen and you'll function fine. It won't be min maxed, but very few people will be during this test. Imagine the "average player" pug with one or two item sets and not much gold. He won't be changing anything. You're resisting this test to preserve your own gold and time and build, but this is about the future of the game, not you. We differ on ideology here.

Derra

Gan Xing wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also what kind of nonscientific approach for the topic is that. You simply won´t get any worthwhile results @ZOS_BrianWheeler because people can not play the same way with CP compared to playing without.

They simply can´t use their skills in the same way.

Actually, it is very scientific. They observed a phenomenon and they are testing it throughout multiple different servers. Assuming that Azura's Star is the control (as it always was a non-cp campaign), they get to see how Haderus and True Flame is affected by the 1 week change, and then compare it to Azura's Star.

Also, I can assure the console that they won't have to deal with this test.

How is changing two variables at once scientific.

They are currently not able to tell if player behavior or noCP cause the difference for azura.
Taking away CP for all campaigns will inevitably change playerbehavior.

So if lag gets better during that time they still won´t be able to tell if it´s playerbehavior or CP causing the lag.

In fact the only meaningful result would be the campaigns still lagging @Gan Xing

technohic

Derra wrote: »

VycDarkshadow wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Well so one week of not pvping because i´m not going to craft a template for that bullcrap? Nice - do i get my subscription refunded for that time period?

Edit: Do you really think anyone who has a template balanced for CP is going to continue to play? That´s moronic.

Nope, but if you don't want to participate in helping fix PvP, then I see no reason for you to cry about not PvPing. Also, I've spoken to several of my streamer friends, and they're stoked for this! They don't mind a single week of no CP perks, if it means fixing PvP in the long run.

Besides, it's the CP procs that are under fire right now. I'm sure the static increased resistances/damage and the reduction costs are going to remain as they are.

They will basically get no usable result because ppl just can´t play the same way.

The game works differently without CP (ie you can´t spam skills as easily). It´s a useless test.

Thats the thing. Its not just CP calculations that will be removed. Its also a bit of sustain.

BuggeX

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

@MyNameIsElias We are aware of that behavior and will be adjusting values of Outposts, Resources and Keeps after the event.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

after? so we can just ap trade 12k/min?

just make it so that the ap from Keep/outers just are given out after the wall was sieged from attleast 95% to 0, the flag just can be turned if atleast the inner wall is down. so ppls have acctually to siege/repair etc. if they want exploit the bleaker trade then they have attleast to wasted more time siege/repair and lower the ap gain.

easy fix and serious Player doent get affected

cschwingeb14_ESO

CP has a lot of passives that require active calculation. For example, every time you block, there's a passive that might return damage to the attacker. Every time you set someone of-balance, you get a damage buff. Every time someone breaks free, they get the unchained buff. Etc, etc.

It's similar to the NB passive that grants the grounp a buff every time you crit. Every time a person with night mothers crits, a debuff has to be applied to the target. These layers of reactive things increase server load every time there a chance for their condition to become possible.

In the case of NB passive, that calculation has to be addressed every time a NB deals damage or heals.

Now, most of these calculations are really simple and run fast. But all it takes is one "bad" CP condition that happens often to load the server's heavily

Derra

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

@Derra so cp facilitating spamming healing springs for 10 minutes isn't cp contributing to lag if the healing springs spam contributes to lag?

It sounds like your sorc build is refined to take advantage of the stat inflation that cp gives us. No wonder you're so against it! Make a few slight adjustments to trade some of that crit for regen and you'll function fine. It won't be min maxed, but very few people will be during this test. Imagine the "average player" pug with one or two item sets and not much gold. He won't be changing anything. You're resisting this test to preserve your own gold and time and build, but this is about the future of the game, not you. We differ on ideology here.

The whole game is balanced around CP.
Shieldbreaker and poisons being the prime example (and especially shieldbreaker is back with a vengeance).

My builds are balanced for CP because sets and mechanics are balanced for CP.

I´m simply against the test because the only reliable testoutcome would be: "Damn the server lags like a piece of ... without CP aswell. Back to the drawingboard."

They simply will not be able to tell if it´s playerbehavior or noCP if there is less lag - because they can´t do it on azura currently.

A test where only one of two results can give you a meaningful answer (and that being the answer you DON`T want) is a bad test.

Talcyndl

Rin_Senya wrote: »

Ppl spent weeks grinding their gear for CP builds and millions of gold upgrading all of this but yeeeeeh, who cares about PVPers in this game anyway right?
Also the funniest part of this is that removing CP won't help with server performance AT ALL, because this game was laggy for many months BEFORE they even introduced CP!

What does "millions of gold" have to do with it?

Talcyndl

Rittings wrote: »

Whilst the idea of a "level playing field" is okay, it removes the incentive to level. What return on the huge time sink do people get if they are getting no return for their efforts with regards to CP?

Would it not be more productive to have a few CP campaigns and few non-CP campaigns? The fact that on PS4 there is only one non-CP (and its a longer campaign) can be off-putting for some.

Maybe if you did the "double" or "1.5" AP return in those campaigns, you'd find more in there and it would even out the CP and non-CP campaigns - and give players a greater choice.

IMO, people PvP for the sake of the actual fights. If the fights are better (and IMO, they are without CP), than that is all the incentive we [should] need.

Derra

Talcyndl wrote: »

Rittings wrote: »

Whilst the idea of a "level playing field" is okay, it removes the incentive to level. What return on the huge time sink do people get if they are getting no return for their efforts with regards to CP?

Would it not be more productive to have a few CP campaigns and few non-CP campaigns? The fact that on PS4 there is only one non-CP (and its a longer campaign) can be off-putting for some.

Maybe if you did the "double" or "1.5" AP return in those campaigns, you'd find more in there and it would even out the CP and non-CP campaigns - and give players a greater choice.

IMO, people PvP for the sake of the actual fights. If the fights are better (and IMO, they are without CP), than that is all the incentive we [should] need.

Strange - i find noncp fights so repellent i´m actually downloading witcher III to finally play both DLCs during that week ._.

Ishammael

Can you say... Seducer + Warlock redux?!?!?

Talcyndl

olsborg wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Now everyone gets to feel how imbalanced poisons and siege are without CP.

This. If they removed resource cost poisons and ...did something to siege. Id be all for removing CP from the game permanently, CP is also why the zone pve is sooo f boring cause every mob die to 2 hits.

I don't think siege is that unbalanced. Yes, you can get killed pretty quick by Cold Fire, but the impact is mostly felt by (1) zergs and (2) people who naturally stand in red circles.

DisgracefulMind

I'm looking forward to this only specifically because this is the first time I've seen the PvP team take such huge lengths to fix Cyrodiil performance.

With that said, I hope you all at ZoS realize that removing CP completely eventually in PvP is the wrong decision as a permanent "solution". There are players who specifically only PvP, and you would be basically giving them the middle finger. So, no matter what data you gather, I hope you keep CP in. The game + gear + playstyles are now balanced around CP.

Also, @ZOS_BrianWheeler , please make sure that emperors are disabled for this event. If someone were to get emperor before this week, they would reap some absolutely insane benefits from the double AP gain + having more resources and such while CP is disabled. Please make it so they can't get emperor for this week. ^_^

ManDraKE

The whole game is (in)balanced around CP.

@Derra Just l2p withouth CP, is not even a big change. Most (if not all) builds that work no regular campains, work on non-cp campains with minor adjustments (change mundus, food, or 1 or 2 jewerly enchants) and you are g2g. If you know how to managed your resources, you won't have any trouble.

You are overreacting af, i constantly switch from Cp to Non-Cp campain withouth any trouble, i don't even need to switch gear, just changing food and 1 ring enchant and done.

Talcyndl

Derra wrote: »

Strange - i find noncp fights so repellent i´m actually downloading witcher III to finally play both DLCs during that week ._.

Personally, I prefer fights that require resource management. That was the limiting factor in the original combat design which rejected cool down timers on skills. When they removed soft caps and then added CP, it broke that original system. The system that replaced it favors broken min/max builds - either super bursty DPS or never run out of resources tanks.

Derra

Talcyndl wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Strange - i find noncp fights so repellent i´m actually downloading witcher III to finally play both DLCs during that week ._.

Personally, I prefer fights that require resource management. That was the limiting factor in the original combat design which rejected cool down timers on skills. When they removed soft caps and then added CP, it broke that original system. The system that replaced it favors broken min/max builds - either super bursty DPS or never run out of resources tanks.

I play a class who has infinite stacking costs on one of their class defining abilities. Playing a sorc using streak as an offensive spell (and not only to run away) still require resource management even with CP.
Especially with poisons being a thing.

Edit: Also i never had any resource issue from patch 1.3 (5p sets rework) to patch 1.5.
I was softcapped on all stats execept for magica and magica regeneration (the latter being massively overcapped @169) while having cost reduction stacked from all sources.
I think my sustain never went back to the level of 1.4 and 1.5.

Anyone complaining about too much sustain built wrong back in the days.

Takes-No-Prisoner

Haven't been in AS in awhile. Super curious how this'll play out, so I'm game for this. Let's do it.

NewBlacksmurf

Idea:

Just remove Cyrodil as PvP and break up parts of the map in one hour campaigns that reset with exponentially smaller player caps like 150 per faction

If you're going to test it......let's actually test it

@ZOS_BrianWheeler perhaps removing factions from all players and assigning account wide faction when joining any campaign which flips only when the first campaign resets....that's when you let ppl change


Starts to address other player driven app farming or exploiting

Derra

ManDraKE wrote: »

The whole game is (in)balanced around CP.

@Derra Just l2p withouth CP, is not even a big change. Most (if not all) builds that work no regular campains, work on non-cp campains with minor adjustments (change mundus, food, or 1 or 2 jewerly enchants) and you are g2g. If you know how to managed your resources, you won't have any trouble.

You are overreacting af, i constantly switch from Cp to Non-Cp campain withouth any trouble, i don't even need to switch gear, just changing food and 1 ring enchant and done.

I´m relying on 58% critchance to heal - which makes thief mandatory. I also loose 12% crit flatout.
I´m using witchmother food providing me with regen.
I have 2x magrec on jewelry enchanted already.

Tell me how should i adjust my build without loosing the ability to heal? By enchanting an extra 169 rec instead of the one spelldmg glyph i have? Really?

But ofc that´s all a nonissue if you´re running in a 20 man grp.

Satiar

CP is bad for PvP. Remove it in Cyro !

Karivaa

As an avid Xbox player who mainly does PVP and has played since launch, thank you!!!!

If this will fix cyrodiil, I am all for it!!!

My main concern is that there won't be as many people in cyrodiil because homestead is being released tomorrow for us and typically after a dlc, PVP is dead for awhile. Haderus usually is always popping though. The double ap is also huge!

Our main campaigns now are Haderus, Scourge and Skull.

Recremen

Well, as long as it's just for a week, I look forward to helping test and getting some extra AP for it! It will certainly be an interesting experience, and I fully support the early announcement so we can prepare for the event, as well as the dedication to testing this on the live servers instead of botting up some test servers. Hopefully you get the data you need to streamline the Champion Point system!