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Morrowind expansion = Value....FINALLY!

  • mvffins
    mvffins
    ✭✭✭
    1) I don't see a problem with this expansion not being included in ESO + as they found a loophole by not labeling it downloadable content, congrats, its business

    2) I do see a problem in that the have stopped caring about ESO + members, and instead started marginalizing them.
    This marginalization can be seen in three ways:

    a) Offering the entire game and all available DLCS for a significantly reduced price on occasions - A friend of mine was able to get all DLCs and the game recently for a much cheaper price than 6 months of being a subscriber......

    b) Gradually inflating the costs of items in the store to lower the value of the crowns gained from subbing

    c) Not fixing queuing for random normal and veteran dungeons, as they will always assign you to a DLC dungeon. There are dozens of other dungeons to do why am I constantly shafted? It's not even random anymore as I know I only have a choice of 1 of 5 dungeons, while non-ESO+ members have a bigger choice.
    Edited by mvffins on February 2, 2017 12:59AM
  • Rex-Umbra
    Rex-Umbra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Amen
    Xbox GT: Rex Umbra IX
  • sevomd69
    sevomd69
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    Full access to DLC was promised to subscribers in perpetuity.
    Do you have any idea how crazy that sounds? FOREVER?

    World of Warcraft is 13 years old. So, you think Zos promised you that something it released in 2027 will be included in the subscription model created in 2014?

    Reading these threads, if I were Zos, I would say, "Subscriptions now include access to Morrowind. Cause you say we promised. But subscriptions now cost $29.99 a month.

    Seriously, would you people feel better if the subscription included what you feel "entitled" to but the subscription cost doubled or tripled in price? Or did Zos promise you content forever and the 2014 prices forever too? lolol

    I don't care how crazy it sounds. It wasn't my promise. I once entered a contest for a lifetimes supply of Dr. Pepper. Silly company didn't know how much Dr. Pepper teenage me could drink. I wasn't worried about their semantic definition of "lifetime supply" if companies offer you something most people will take them up on it and get upset when they pull the rug out from under you.

    You do know that when they say a lifetime supply it doesn't mean they will give you as much of the product that YOU want... they, the contest giver, actually determine how much of their product constitutes a lifetime supply and they give you that amount...
  • Balamoor
    Balamoor
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    At the end of the day the people whining are doing so out of greed or fueling the mock outrage "Zo$ must fail machine" .

    Screw the fact that they are getting 3 DLC packs in 2017 (boo hoo you didn't get four in 2016 One Tameril needed to happen)
    Screw the fact thet ZoS explained in horsey ducky terms the difference between a DLC and a boxed expansion.
    Screw the fact that they aren't the first nor will they be the last developer to follow this business model.


    The crying is limited to the same people who whine about everything and a few "everything should be all inclusive" snowflakes. I have the feeling that this expansion will have astronomical sales and pretty soon the haters on the forum will be making lame justifications on why that is.
    "NEVER QUESTION THE GOAT!" :Sylance9
      You know you don't have to be here right?
      #FUFINN
      GM: The Company Of The Wolf (Not Recruiting)
      "I support anyone's right to be who they want to be. My question is: to what extent do I have to participate in your self-image ..." Dave Chappell

    1. Balamoor
      Balamoor
      ✭✭✭✭✭
      Full access to DLC was promised to subscribers in perpetuity.
      Can I get a source on this "promise in perpetuity"?
      ... I'm anxious to read these wedding vow like promises Zos made to you. B)

      A day later.......

      *crickets*
      *crickets*
      *crickets*

      That is my new signature!
      "NEVER QUESTION THE GOAT!" :Sylance9
        You know you don't have to be here right?
        #FUFINN
        GM: The Company Of The Wolf (Not Recruiting)
        "I support anyone's right to be who they want to be. My question is: to what extent do I have to participate in your self-image ..." Dave Chappell

      1. Wifeaggro13
        Wifeaggro13
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        I know a lot of people are complaining that this is an "expansion" instead of a "DLC" and will be sold for real world currency instead of accessible via membership and/or bought with crowns.
        But I think it's instructive to consider this in contrast to the other offerings by this company over the last few months that people (myself included) have complained about.

        People are always trying to judge the "ethics" of companies based on things like their social responsibility or their environmental impact, but way back in the day we judged a company's ethics by if they delivered VALUE to consumers. It's still one of the cornerstones of business ethics (for people actually in business) and is the other side of the coin of Marketing.

        FIRST,
        Make no mistake about it, the reason most items are sold with "crowns" is because it allows you to divorce the real cost of the item from the decision to purchase it. These imaginary currencies exist specifically to keep you from analyzing the value of the purchase.

        Furthermore, once people are hooked into the stream of converting real world currency for imaginary currency, it's much easier to convince you to buy junk that has no value. If you literally pulled out a credit card to pay $35 for a mount, many of you would be forced to consider than transaction in the context of what other things you could buy for $35 in the real world. Going to the movies, getting an oil change, a new sweater, etc.

        But when your real life money has already been converted to crowns, the decision simply becomes "which one of these few limited crown offerings should I buy"?

        SECOND,
        Due to that, it's very easy to make absolute worthless junk and sell it. Things like a child's refrigerator drawing of a reindeer stretched over a horse skeleton for 4000 crowns.

        It's like the old Seinfield quote. "It's a show about nothing. So why would they watch it? .......Because it's on TV"

        They are trying to sell you nothing. Why would you buy it? Because it's in the crown store.

        This has led to a feedback loop of negativity and LESS VALUE. The worse the items are in the crown store, the more people save their crowns, the more Zos overcharges for even more unrefined junk in an attempt to get you to use up the crowns.

        BUT THIS IS A BETTER DIRECTION.
        Zos has my congratulations on both offering real value with this expansion (as far as I can tell so far) and offering it for a legitimate price in the realm of normal commerce.
        Anyone complaining about the cost of this expansion and the demand of real world currency for it has been duped by the fake currency system of crowns. This expansion offers the best value offering by Zos in years, if not since the launch of the game.

        This expansion comes with a costume, mount, armor converter, pets, and more. Prior to this, the most recent mount cost over half as much as this expansion by itself...and it SUCKED. lol

        THIS IS VALUE. GOOD JOB ZENIMAX.
        I hope they have tremendous sales and make massive revenue from this expansion so they return to offering real content, real value, for real money.

        (too bad Homestead doesn't feel more that way)

        I agree mostly. I do feel 40 bucks is steep for the features. It lacks any new four man pve, only 1 trial but if it's a large zone with multiple wings it would be in line with other expansions at this pricepoint. My biggest complaint is 95 %of the content is just solo questing with no real game system expansion. Like additional layers to the cp system. 25 to 30 $ would be appropriate compared to its competitors ability to produce features at the same price point
        Edited by Wifeaggro13 on February 2, 2017 1:17AM
      2. brandonv516
        brandonv516
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        ESO itself is downloadable and it is full of content. That doesn't mean it is downloadable content (DLC).

        Move along here lol.
      3. Yolokin_Swagonborn
        Yolokin_Swagonborn
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        Full access to DLC was promised to subscribers in perpetuity.
        Can I get a source on this "promise in perpetuity"?
        ... I'm anxious to read these wedding vow like promises Zos made to you. B)

        A day later.......

        *crickets*
        *crickets*
        *crickets*

        Not really eager to have a unproductive pettifog war over semantics. You got really excited about the word perpetuity.

        The stronger words you use in an argument, the more concise you can be, however, the more open you leave yourself to pettifoggery because it takes ZERO rhetorical skill to find one counter example to an absolute or very strong statement. Alternatively, you can use a lot more less powerful words to be more precise, padding them with supplementary, pre-emptive, and defensive clauses but your responses get much longer and start to look like legalize on the bottom of a contract.

        You only really have do that balancing act between concision and precision with someone who is better at picking your words apart than actually debating you on value, principle or big picture at hand.

        Here are my claims in more broad, verbose, and easier to defend format. Try to see the big picture instead of playing word ninja.
        • When ZOS conceived the ESO plus subscription plus b2P model:
        • ZOS painted a picture for subscribers that if they subscribed, they wouldn't have to pay for any additional content releases.
        • ZOS never intented (at that time) to release any new content that existed outside of their DLC content model
        • DLC is a pretty broad term so ZOS is doing its darnedest to rename this new content they want to release outside of their original model so they can sidestep their promise

        Here are my two pieces of evidence that support the claims I have just made:

        ZOS's planned DLC release schedule was 4 DLCs per year.
        eso_twitter_promise_quarterly_dlc.jpg

        There is a discussion of ESO plus in this ESO live twitch video that occurs around the 33 minute mark.

        Pete Hines:
        So the idea there as it relates to DLC is I dont ever have to worry about what DLC is coming out when, I just get to play ALL OF IT.
        Emphasis added

        Matt Firor:
        Right

        Well, subscribers now have to worry.

        And that is why we are where we are now with the semantics game of trying to define this new content as ANYTHING but DLC even though DLC means Downloadable Content. Its going to take Bill Clinton levels of word wizardry for them to wiggle out of that but they seem to be succeeding.

        So there you have it. ZOS promised subscribers access to all future content, (because at the time) all future content was intended to be DLC. Therefore ZOS broke it's clear (verbal, non-binding, non legally enforceable) promise to it's subscribers and changed its business model, again.
        Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on February 2, 2017 1:47AM
        everyone is running this set it seems if everyone is running it you know it has to be op
        - Jake1576
        The difference between a "Chapter" and a DLC

        The Root of All Problems (and nerfs) in this game.

        PVP catch and release program

        Historical Agree/LOL Ratio: 1.92 Why are the LOLs gone?!?!
      4. willlienellson
        willlienellson
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        Not really eager to have a unproductive pettifog war over semantics. You got really excited about the word perpetuity.
        I've had to rewrite my reply to this a couple of times. I like you, and I don't want to push things too far.

        On multiple threads you have used the word "forever" and in my thread "perpetuity" to describe a promise you think you received.

        Now, when called out on it, you shrink from your assertion.

        Semantics is literally the study of the meaning of words. You are on a forum using the written word but saying we shouldn't assume "meaning" from your words.

        Either Zos promised you every update to this game would be included in the subscription forever, in perpetuity, for the life of the game, indefinitely, etc......OR THEY DIDN'T.

        Either the things you've been writing over and over again in every thread are false or they are not.

        It's not fair to repeat a "TALKING POINT" over and over and over again in every thread and then accuse people of playing "word ninja" when they respond to your words literally.

        I'm not interested in having a semantics argument either, which is why now, having witnessed you play fast-and-lose with your repeated language, I'm not going to debate the issue (with you directly) any more.
        Edited by willlienellson on February 2, 2017 1:59AM
        Sometimes it's fun to troll the trolls.
      5. Yolokin_Swagonborn
        Yolokin_Swagonborn
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        Not really eager to have a unproductive pettifog war over semantics. You got really excited about the word perpetuity.
        I've had to rewrite my reply to this a couple of times. I like you, and I don't want to push things too far.

        On multiple threads you have used the word "forever" and in my thread "perpetuity" to describe a promise you think you received.

        Now, when called out on it, you shrink from your assertion.

        Semantics is literally the study of the meaning of words. You are on a forum using the written word but saying we shouldn't assume "meaning" from your words.

        Either Zos promised you every update to this game would be included in the subscription forever, in perpetuity, for the life of the game, indefinitely, etc......OR THEY DIDN'T.

        Either the things you've been writing over and over again in every thread are false or they are not.

        It's not fair to repeat a "TALKING POINT" over and over and over again in every thread and then accuse people of playing "word ninja" when they respond to your words literally.

        I'm not interested in having a semantics argument either, which is why now, having witnessed you play fast-and-lose with your repeated language, I'm not going to debate the issue (with you directly) any more.

        and yet you are still doing it.


        What I said:
        Full access to DLC was promised to subscribers in perpetuity.

        What Pete Hines ACTUALLY said on ESO LIVE in relation to subscribers:
        So the idea there as it relates to DLC is I dont EVER have to worry about what DLC is coming out when, I just get to play ALL OF IT.
        (emphasis added)

        Pretty strong words from both of us. Good thing I'm only a commenter on a web forum and not the VP of PR and marketing for ZOS. Hilarious how I am being held to my word choice stronger then Pete is to his.
        Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on February 2, 2017 2:18AM
        everyone is running this set it seems if everyone is running it you know it has to be op
        - Jake1576
        The difference between a "Chapter" and a DLC

        The Root of All Problems (and nerfs) in this game.

        PVP catch and release program

        Historical Agree/LOL Ratio: 1.92 Why are the LOLs gone?!?!
      6. willlienellson
        willlienellson
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        "Join Sprint's Unlimited Data plan and never be charged overages again"

        Which means, SO LONG AS THEY OFFER THAT PACKAGE.

        Nobody in their right minds would suggest Sprint is now obligated (legally or morally) to offer an unlimited package forever.
        Sometimes it's fun to troll the trolls.
      7. Osteos
        Osteos
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        I know a lot of people are complaining that this is an "expansion" instead of a "DLC" and will be sold for real world currency instead of accessible via membership and/or bought with crowns.
        But I think it's instructive to consider this in contrast to the other offerings by this company over the last few months that people (myself included) have complained about.

        People are always trying to judge the "ethics" of companies based on things like their social responsibility or their environmental impact, but way back in the day we judged a company's ethics by if they delivered VALUE to consumers. It's still one of the cornerstones of business ethics (for people actually in business) and is the other side of the coin of Marketing.

        FIRST,
        Make no mistake about it, the reason most items are sold with "crowns" is because it allows you to divorce the real cost of the item from the decision to purchase it. These imaginary currencies exist specifically to keep you from analyzing the value of the purchase.

        Furthermore, once people are hooked into the stream of converting real world currency for imaginary currency, it's much easier to convince you to buy junk that has no value. If you literally pulled out a credit card to pay $35 for a mount, many of you would be forced to consider than transaction in the context of what other things you could buy for $35 in the real world. Going to the movies, getting an oil change, a new sweater, etc.

        But when your real life money has already been converted to crowns, the decision simply becomes "which one of these few limited crown offerings should I buy"?

        SECOND,
        Due to that, it's very easy to make absolute worthless junk and sell it. Things like a child's refrigerator drawing of a reindeer stretched over a horse skeleton for 4000 crowns.

        It's like the old Seinfield quote. "It's a show about nothing. So why would they watch it? .......Because it's on TV"

        They are trying to sell you nothing. Why would you buy it? Because it's in the crown store.

        This has led to a feedback loop of negativity and LESS VALUE. The worse the items are in the crown store, the more people save their crowns, the more Zos overcharges for even more unrefined junk in an attempt to get you to use up the crowns.

        BUT THIS IS A BETTER DIRECTION.
        Zos has my congratulations on both offering real value with this expansion (as far as I can tell so far) and offering it for a legitimate price in the realm of normal commerce.
        Anyone complaining about the cost of this expansion and the demand of real world currency for it has been duped by the fake currency system of crowns. This expansion offers the best value offering by Zos in years, if not since the launch of the game.

        This expansion comes with a costume, mount, armor converter, pets, and more. Prior to this, the most recent mount cost over half as much as this expansion by itself...and it SUCKED. lol

        THIS IS VALUE. GOOD JOB ZENIMAX.
        I hope they have tremendous sales and make massive revenue from this expansion so they return to offering real content, real value, for real money.

        (too bad Homestead doesn't feel more that way)

        I agree mostly. I do feel 40 bucks is steep for the features. It lacks any new four man pve, only 1 trial but if it's a large zone with multiple wings it would be in line with other expansions at this pricepoint. My biggest complaint is 95 %of the content is just solo questing with no real game system expansion. Like additional layers to the cp system. 25 to 30 $ would be appropriate compared to its competitors ability to produce features at the same price point

        But we don't know that really. We know it has a trial, battlegrounds and 30hrs of gameplay. They haven't gotten into all the specifics yet. I'm fairly sure they will release more information as we get closer to June. This is just the initial announcement to get people hyped.
        DAGGERFALL COVENANT
        NA PC
        Former Vehemence Member
        Onistka Valerius <> Artemis Renault <> Gonk gra-Ugrash <> Karietta <> Zercon at-Rusa <> Genevieve Renault <> Ktaka <> Brenlyn Renault
      8. Yolokin_Swagonborn
        Yolokin_Swagonborn
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        "Join Sprint's Unlimited Data plan and never be charged overages again"

        Which means, SO LONG AS THEY OFFER THAT PACKAGE.

        Nobody in their right minds would suggest Sprint is now obligated (legally or morally) to offer an unlimited package forever.

        Oh the joys of arguing with you

        D8sxR1.gif

        My original claim:

        Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »
        Full access to DLC was promised to subscribers in perpetuity.

        Your challenge:

        willlienellson wrote: »
        Can I get a source on this "promise in perpetuity"?
        ... I'm anxious to read these wedding vow like promises Zos made to you. B)

        My response:

        What Pete Hines ACTUALLY said on ESO LIVE in relation to subscribers:
        So the idea there as it relates to DLC is I dont EVER have to worry about what DLC is coming out when, I just get to play ALL OF IT.

        I never said they were legally obligated to keep their word, I just implied they were scumbags for going back on it. There is no such thing as moral obligation. You have every right to break your word as I have every right to call you scum for doing so. But that is irrelevant. Your challenge was simple. Provide evidence of a promise. Evidence provided. You can eat one of these now.

        Exo-cricket-protein-bars-7-copy.jpg

        everyone is running this set it seems if everyone is running it you know it has to be op
        - Jake1576
        The difference between a "Chapter" and a DLC

        The Root of All Problems (and nerfs) in this game.

        PVP catch and release program

        Historical Agree/LOL Ratio: 1.92 Why are the LOLs gone?!?!
      9. Wreuntzylla
        Wreuntzylla
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        ✭✭
        NovaShadow wrote: »
        I didn't realise the DLC was already released.
        It must've been for you cannot possibly say something is valuable until you've experienced it.

        I've never bought a vial of crack.
        I've also never bought a bulldozer.
        Yet I can objectively say there is more "value" in the bulldozer than a vial of crack.

        False analogy. Compare even a shoebox of crack to the bulldozer and the crack clearly has more value.
      10. Wreuntzylla
        Wreuntzylla
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        ✭✭
        mvffins wrote: »
        A friend of mine was able to get all DLCs and the game recently for a much cheaper price than 6 months of being a subscriber......

        Did you know that those movies you go see in the cinema for $20 can be rented for $2 if you just wait a few months?

        Analogizing a flat fee v. flat fee against a subscription v. flat fee? Am I paying the extra months for popcorn and soda at the theater through debt and amortization?
      11. willlienellson
        willlienellson
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        Oh the joys of arguing with you
        But I'm not arguing with you. I felt like you were making it personal. You continue to do so. I'm not interested.
        Sometimes it's fun to troll the trolls.
      12. willlienellson
        willlienellson
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        Analogizing a flat fee v. flat fee against a subscription v. flat fee?
        Not analogizing anything. I just think the poster seemed to unaware that old sh!t goes on sale.

        Thought I'd clue him in along with all the rest of the children in here.
        Sometimes it's fun to troll the trolls.
      13. Yolokin_Swagonborn
        Yolokin_Swagonborn
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        Oh the joys of arguing with you
        But I'm not arguing with you. I felt like you were making it personal. You continue to do so. I'm not interested.

        I'm making it personal? You challenged me personally, then made light of the length of time I took to respond as if I had no possible response. Then I pounded your crickets into protein and now I'm gonna twitch snipe your twitch. You're right. Good time to call it quits on this one, you have no real move left other than more pettyfogging especially since I actually agree with the premise of your thread. But this whole thread is irrelevant. No one on either side of this argument is saying morrowind is poor value, but keep tilting at that windmill if you like.
        everyone is running this set it seems if everyone is running it you know it has to be op
        - Jake1576
        The difference between a "Chapter" and a DLC

        The Root of All Problems (and nerfs) in this game.

        PVP catch and release program

        Historical Agree/LOL Ratio: 1.92 Why are the LOLs gone?!?!
      14. Unsent.Soul
        Unsent.Soul
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        Downloadable content (DLC) is additional content created for a released video game. It is distributed through the Internet by the game's official publisher. Downloadable content can be of several types, ranging from aesthetic outfit changes to a new, extensive storyline, similar to an expansion pack. As such, DLC may add new game modes, objects, levels, challenges or other features to a complete, already released game.

        Vvardenfell IS DLC

        Full access to DLC was promised to subscribers in perpetuity.

        I'm OK with things changing, but I want ZOS to admit their business model failed, AGAIN, then they were forced by the bean counters to go back on their word, again.

        In fact I will pay $100 for a special edition of Vvardenfell. They can keep the stupid dwemer statue, I just want it to include a signed handwritten letter from Matt Firror that reads "Sorry, we dun goofed again"

        In a round about way they kind of raised the white flag within their 2017 roadmap. Sad to say but HEY they mentioned pvp fixes... Again...
      15. willlienellson
        willlienellson
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        snip
        Indeed. If it makes you feel better, you can assume me not continuing means I have nothing to say, nothing of my own quote from the video you posted, and indeed am just "stumped' because I have "zero rhetorical skills".

        Or it could be that I read,
        Not really eager to have a unproductive pettifog war over semantics. You got really excited about the word perpetuity...
        ZERO rhetorical skill ...
        word ninja...

        and then decided I was f'ing done.
        Sometimes it's fun to troll the trolls.
      16. Wreuntzylla
        Wreuntzylla
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        ✭✭
        Not really eager to have a unproductive pettifog war over semantics. You got really excited about the word perpetuity.
        I've had to rewrite my reply to this a couple of times. I like you, and I don't want to push things too far.

        On multiple threads you have used the word "forever" and in my thread "perpetuity" to describe a promise you think you received.

        Now, when called out on it, you shrink from your assertion.

        Semantics is literally the study of the meaning of words. You are on a forum using the written word but saying we shouldn't assume "meaning" from your words.

        Either Zos promised you every update to this game would be included in the subscription forever, in perpetuity, for the life of the game, indefinitely, etc......OR THEY DIDN'T.

        Either the things you've been writing over and over again in every thread are false or they are not.

        It's not fair to repeat a "TALKING POINT" over and over and over again in every thread and then accuse people of playing "word ninja" when they respond to your words literally.

        I'm not interested in having a semantics argument either, which is why now, having witnessed you play fast-and-lose with your repeated language, I'm not going to debate the issue (with you directly) any more.

        I take no sides on this thread, but you are an endless font of inaccuracy.

        Semantics is meaning in words, sentences, paragraphs.... text generally. It includes contextual meaning. A word in isolation may have a different meaning when surrounded by other words. In fact, most words can only be defined in context. That's why when you open a dictionary, you don't see a single definition, and when you reference synonyms, you have to determine if the synonym matches your particular definition. It would be wrong to say that "I stamp my foot" means that you imprint a pattern into your foot... Unless of course, that's what you really mean. Which you would only discover in context.

        Take a gander at the definitions of perpetual and forever. Neither has only absolute definitions. Oh bummer, even absolute isn't absolute... It can be used for emphasis - in context - the most common example being "absolute folly." Which is arguing semantics only with respect to words in isolation...

        It's perfectly acceptable to say that ZoS promised perpetually free DLCs in context, even where all they said was "yes." No?



      17. willlienellson
        willlienellson
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        Semantics is literally the study of the meaning of words. .
        Semantics is meaning in words, sentences, paragraphs.... text generally. It includes contextual meaning.

        You'll forgive me, but I stopped reading there.
        Sometimes it's fun to troll the trolls.
      18. Wreuntzylla
        Wreuntzylla
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        ✭✭
        There is no such thing as moral obligation.

        OMG, not you too.
      19. Yolokin_Swagonborn
        Yolokin_Swagonborn
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        snip
        Indeed. If it makes you feel better, you can assume me not continuing means I have nothing to say, nothing of my own quote from the video you posted, and indeed am just "stumped' because I have "zero rhetorical skills".

        Or it could be that I read,
        Not really eager to have a unproductive pettifog war over semantics. You got really excited about the word perpetuity...
        ZERO rhetorical skill ...
        word ninja...

        and then decided I was f'ing done.

        I NEVER said you personally, Mr. Willlie Nellson, had zero rhetorical skill but I'm starting to think you have severe reading comprehension issues. I was criticizing a particular method of rhetoric where you focus heavily on the meaning or usage of one or two words while ignoring the overall spirit or principle behind those words.

        In classical rhetoric, any absolute or strong statement is easy to refute by providing a myriad of counter examples. Holding someones argument to an absolute, then attacking it is fairly easy. It's the proc-set of the rhetorical world.

        It is much more challenging and difficult to debate someone on their values or ideals, the principles behind the words.

        In all of my debate and rhetoric classes we were taught to treat someones arguments separately from their value as a person. You can attack their arguments and the way they make them, but still respect them as a person.

        I am beginning to think that the bulk of our communication issues here are stemming from the impression I am getting that you hold your personal core principles too close to the arguments you make. You take an attack on your arguments as an attack on your person, which it is not intended to be.

        Until you can separate people from the arguments they make, you are going to live your life thinking everyone who disagrees with you on anything is a moron (intentional stylistic hyperbole here, dont get triggered) and you are going to miss out on a lot of potential friendships with people with diverse opinions.
        Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on February 2, 2017 7:35AM
        everyone is running this set it seems if everyone is running it you know it has to be op
        - Jake1576
        The difference between a "Chapter" and a DLC

        The Root of All Problems (and nerfs) in this game.

        PVP catch and release program

        Historical Agree/LOL Ratio: 1.92 Why are the LOLs gone?!?!
      20. Yolokin_Swagonborn
        Yolokin_Swagonborn
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        There is no such thing as moral obligation.


        OMG, not you too.

        More accurately, I should have said moral compulsion. but..

        C'mon, join the fun!

        We are deconstructing the entire English language in this thread!

        Do the Aedra love the pious because it is pious, or is pious only pious because it is loved by the Aedra?
        Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on February 2, 2017 7:44AM
        everyone is running this set it seems if everyone is running it you know it has to be op
        - Jake1576
        The difference between a "Chapter" and a DLC

        The Root of All Problems (and nerfs) in this game.

        PVP catch and release program

        Historical Agree/LOL Ratio: 1.92 Why are the LOLs gone?!?!
      21. willlienellson
        willlienellson
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        I'm starting to think you have severe reading comprehension issues.
        You sure do continue to waste a lot of time arguing with someone you think might not be able to understand you.
        Sometimes it's fun to troll the trolls.
      22. Yolokin_Swagonborn
        Yolokin_Swagonborn
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        ✭✭✭✭✭
        I'm starting to think you have severe reading comprehension issues.
        You sure do continue to waste a lot of time arguing with someone you think might not be able to understand you.

        Case in point. There should be a cooldown on argument jumping.
        Edited by Yolokin_Swagonborn on February 2, 2017 7:42AM
        everyone is running this set it seems if everyone is running it you know it has to be op
        - Jake1576
        The difference between a "Chapter" and a DLC

        The Root of All Problems (and nerfs) in this game.

        PVP catch and release program

        Historical Agree/LOL Ratio: 1.92 Why are the LOLs gone?!?!
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