Morrowind expansion = Value....FINALLY!

willlienellson

You told me you were going to come and sh!t all over my thread and I should have believed you.

In the same post where you talk about how you were educated to separate the argument from the person arguing you tell me I have reading comprehension problems. lol Meanwhile you tell me your previous comments weren't directed at me specifically even though you were quoting me directly.

You can troll Zos. You can troll the community here. But you can't troll me.

I won't be replying again. Period.

Wreuntzylla

willlienellson wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Semantics is literally the study of the meaning of words. .

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Semantics is meaning in words, sentences, paragraphs.... text generally. It includes contextual meaning.

You'll forgive me, but I stopped reading there.

I think you are confusing compositional semantics and pragmatics? I find it hard to believe you only learned lexical semantics.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

willlienellson wrote: »

You told me you were going to come and sh!t all over my thread and I should have believed you.

In the same post where you talk about how you were educated to separate the argument from the person arguing you tell me I have reading comprehension problems. lol Meanwhile you tell me your previous comments weren't directed at me specifically even though you were quoting me directly.

You can troll Zos. You can troll the community here. But you can't troll me.

I won't be replying again. Period.

Are you sure?

Wreuntzylla

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

There is no such thing as moral obligation.

OMG, not you too.

More accurately, I should have said moral compulsion. but..

C'mon, join the fun!

We are deconstructing the entire English language in this thread!

Do the Aedra love the pious because it is pious, or is pious only pious because it is loved by the Aedra?

If you take out the "more" I'm with you .

Here we are talking about the difference between your action or inaction based on either an external threat (e.g., law) or your own values (e.g., charity). Moral compulsion really doesn't exist because you aren't compelled to change your values, only your conduct. You may believe in an eye for an eye, but don't follow it because it will land you in jail. On the other hand, because moral obligation comes from your own internal code, your action/inaction is in fact determined by moral obligation.

However, perhaps you have some footing. If someone were to say you have a moral obligation based on their morality rather than yours, which you hear from time to time, that moral obligation does not necessarily exist in you. However, it's based on a corrupt definition of moral obligation and is an abberation.

At least until so many people use it that a dictionary picks it up, like twerking. yeah, that's right, twerking has made it into some reputable dictionaries. Now we are stuck with it at least until its considered archaic. years and years and....

Cherryblossom

@willlienellson

I have to say I agree with most things you are saying.

The only thing I don't agree with is that Morrowind is anything more than a DLC, from what I've seen and heard I don't see anything that would really set it apart from say Orsinium.

I subbed because it was convenient to have access to all content going forward without me having to put any real thought into it. As this is no longer the case I've unsubbed as I will now put the effort into deciding what I want to spend money on, I believe I will also be saving money in the long run!

If I'm wrong and Morrowind is in fact Huge and contains the extra's most would expect to see in an Expansion not a DLC I will reconsider my Sub, but I'm not really expecting anything more than Orsinium.

Cherryblossom

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

There is no such thing as moral obligation.

OMG, not you too.

More accurately, I should have said moral compulsion. but..

C'mon, join the fun!

We are deconstructing the entire English language in this thread!

Do the Aedra love the pious because it is pious, or is pious only pious because it is loved by the Aedra?

If you take out the "more" I'm with you .

Here we are talking about the difference between your action or inaction based on either an external threat (e.g., law) or your own values (e.g., charity). Moral compulsion really doesn't exist because you aren't compelled to change your values, only your conduct. You may believe in an eye for an eye, but don't follow it because it will land you in jail. On the other hand, because moral obligation comes from your own internal code, your action/inaction is in fact determined by moral obligation.

However, perhaps you have some footing. If someone were to say you have a moral obligation based on their morality rather than yours, which you hear from time to time, that moral obligation does not necessarily exist in you. However, it's based on a corrupt definition of moral obligation and is an abberation.

At least until so many people use it that a dictionary picks it up, like twerking. yeah, that's right, twerking has made it into some reputable dictionaries. Now we are stuck with it at least until its considered archaic. years and years and....

You had me until you decided to hate on Twerking.

willlienellson

Cherryblossom wrote: »

...I don't agree with is that Morrowind is anything more than a DLC, from what I've seen and heard I don't see anything that would really set it apart from say Orsinium...

I could be wrong as well but it sounds HUGE.

The main story is quoted as 30 hours. I get the impression there will also be a new Morag Tong guild and story.

Then you get a new class which opens up tons of doors.

Then you get a new type of PVP, which for me could mean easily hundreds of hours in the end.

Then all the little add-ons like included free mounts, armor motifs, etc.

The Orsinium "package" was like 5000 crowns I think which equates to like a bit under $40.

For 50% more cost, this seems like 300% more content.

Only time will tell, but I see no reason not to be extrmely optimistic based on what I've read about the expansion and the plans layer out for 2017.

Zypheran

Good point @willienellson ,
Dro'Martha motif on crown store costs the same in real money as the new content. Yes, compared to what has been on offer recently, this new expansion represents good value for a change.

kevlarto_ESO

"Value" is a subjective term, and based solely off the opinion of the buyer or not buyer, I have no problem with purchasing the not-expansion LOL Because I knew at some point if they ever did anything resembling an expansion it would not be covered under eso+ that's just common sense, this is NOT downloadable content to the base game, this is a whole new game connected to the game, I would not be surprised if the dlc's that are connected to the game are also not covered under the eso+, but if new dlc's come along added to the base game I expect that to be covered under my eso+, if not then we might have a problem.

I do not feel burnt or betrayed by this , I have bought expansions for almost all mmo's I have played, while subbing after buying the box, this is nothing different than any other game company. Seems to be a huge crowd these days that thinks everything should be free, I wish life worked that way, but I hate to tell you is does not.

willlienellson

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

"Value" is a subjective term,

Sure it is, and are well within your rights as a human being to disagree, but most people would say a cardboard box filled with gold has more value than the same sized cardboard box empty. But sure, it's all subjective.

So, celebrating the value of this expansion is really just my personal opinion, obviously.

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

Because I knew at some point if they ever did anything resembling an expansion it would not be covered under eso+

I think pretty much anyone that ever played an MMO before was on the same page.

kevlarto_ESO wrote: »

I would not be surprised if the dlc's that are connected to the game are also not covered under the eso+,

Well, you'll be pleased to know that they've already said the rest of the normal DLCs currently planned will be independent of any chapters, sold for crowns, and available in the crown store.

schnooty

Any time a new area is added to an MMO, tons of people rain down on it reducing the enjoyment factor for me.

I'll just wait until it's cheap or included in the monthly subscription, and it won't be crowded as well as less buggy.

Meanwhile, I'll be playing SWTOR where everything is currently included in the subscription.

Problem solved!

DaveMoeDee

Morrowind looks great, but OP has no idea of the value. For $48, I can get 11000 crowns. That makes $40 worth close to 9000 crowns, or Orsinium + IC + TG + Shadow of the Hist. If Morrowind is better than the 4 of those together, I will agree about it being more value than past DLC.

willlienellson

You're comparing a Free-2-Play game with a Buy-2-Play game. I'm not sure that's an apt comparison.
I personally expected to....BUY the game, since it's B2P.

I could be wrong, but it appears that SWTOR doesn't "sell" any content. You're either a subscriber or a free player, right?

There is no buying of the game, buying of the expansions, etc, right?

So, if that's the case, then obviously they are all included in the sub because the subscription IS the product being sold.

I'm not sure, because I've never played SWTOR, but based on some quick internet research, it doesn't seem to be a fair comparison at all imo.

DaveMoeDee

mvffins wrote: »

1) I don't see a problem with this expansion not being included in ESO + as they found a loophole by not labeling it downloadable content, congrats, its business

2) I do see a problem in that the have stopped caring about ESO + members, and instead started marginalizing them.
This marginalization can be seen in three ways:

a) Offering the entire game and all available DLCS for a significantly reduced price on occasions - A friend of mine was able to get all DLCs and the game recently for a much cheaper price than 6 months of being a subscriber......

b) Gradually inflating the costs of items in the store to lower the value of the crowns gained from subbing

c) Not fixing queuing for random normal and veteran dungeons, as they will always assign you to a DLC dungeon. There are dozens of other dungeons to do why am I constantly shafted? It's not even random anymore as I know I only have a choice of 1 of 5 dungeons, while non-ESO+ members have a bigger choice.

Don't forget crown sales 5500 for $24. That contributes a log to B along with people accumulating sub crowns.

I don't think it is fair to compare the decreasing price of DLC. That is always going to happen over time. Those people though didn't have access when the DLC was new. I bought the DLC individually, but I'm not complaining about the package because the DLC was worth the price I paid.

willlienellson

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Morrowind looks great, but OP has no idea of the value. For $48, I can get 11000 crowns. That makes $40 worth close to 9000 crowns, or Orsinium + IC + TG + Shadow of the Hist. If Morrowind is better than the 4 of those together, I will agree about it being more value than past DLC.

Quoting the "sale" price on crowns right?

Well, wait a year and Morrowind expansion will also go on sale.

Sheesh. lol

Gandrhulf_Harbard

willlienellson wrote: »

The main story is quoted as 30 hours.

And people are claiming (in the thread about a class change option) that you can level 1-50 in 7 hours.

So that theoretically makes Morrowind pretty big because I was 2/3rds through Cadwell's Silver before I hit level 50.


All The Best

Ojustaboo

willlienellson wrote: »

I know a lot of people are complaining that this is an "expansion" instead of a "DLC" and will be sold for real world currency instead of accessible via membership and/or bought with crowns.
But I think it's instructive to consider this in contrast to the other offerings by this company over the last few months that people (myself included) have complained about.

People are always trying to judge the "ethics" of companies based on things like their social responsibility or their environmental impact, but way back in the day we judged a company's ethics by if they delivered VALUE to consumers. It's still one of the cornerstones of business ethics (for people actually in business) and is the other side of the coin of Marketing.

FIRST,
Make no mistake about it, the reason most items are sold with "crowns" is because it allows you to divorce the real cost of the item from the decision to purchase it. These imaginary currencies exist specifically to keep you from analyzing the value of the purchase.

Furthermore, once people are hooked into the stream of converting real world currency for imaginary currency, it's much easier to convince you to buy junk that has no value. If you literally pulled out a credit card to pay $35 for a mount, many of you would be forced to consider than transaction in the context of what other things you could buy for $35 in the real world. Going to the movies, getting an oil change, a new sweater, etc.

But when your real life money has already been converted to crowns, the decision simply becomes "which one of these few limited crown offerings should I buy"?

SECOND,
Due to that, it's very easy to make absolute worthless junk and sell it. Things like a child's refrigerator drawing of a reindeer stretched over a horse skeleton for 4000 crowns.

It's like the old Seinfield quote. "It's a show about nothing. So why would they watch it? .......Because it's on TV"

They are trying to sell you nothing. Why would you buy it? Because it's in the crown store.

This has led to a feedback loop of negativity and LESS VALUE. The worse the items are in the crown store, the more people save their crowns, the more Zos overcharges for even more unrefined junk in an attempt to get you to use up the crowns.

BUT THIS IS A BETTER DIRECTION.
Zos has my congratulations on both offering real value with this expansion (as far as I can tell so far) and offering it for a legitimate price in the realm of normal commerce.
Anyone complaining about the cost of this expansion and the demand of real world currency for it has been duped by the fake currency system of crowns. This expansion offers the best value offering by Zos in years, if not since the launch of the game.

This expansion comes with a costume, mount, armor converter, pets, and more. Prior to this, the most recent mount cost over half as much as this expansion by itself...and it SUCKED. lol

THIS IS VALUE. GOOD JOB ZENIMAX.
I hope they have tremendous sales and make massive revenue from this expansion so they return to offering real content, real value, for real money.
(too bad Homestead doesn't feel more that way)

You may well be right..

Then again you could be totally wrong too.

Do you have a crystal ball or something because until we get to see what we actually have, we don't know

It could be this is the best thing Zos has released

But equally it t could be that Zos know how popular Morrowind is, and are taking advantage of it.

Based in their past record, I wouldn't take what they say as gospel at all

Also, in the basic upgrade package, I get a pet dog (which I like) , Warden costume which I have zero interest in, treasure Maps (lately I've been destroying ones I find, maybe these will have better loot, who knows), crown crates and xp scrolls which are of no interest to me.

I don't get a mount and I don't get armour converter.

DaveMoeDee

willlienellson wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Morrowind looks great, but OP has no idea of the value. For $48, I can get 11000 crowns. That makes $40 worth close to 9000 crowns, or Orsinium + IC + TG + Shadow of the Hist. If Morrowind is better than the 4 of those together, I will agree about it being more value than past DLC.

Quoting the "sale" price on crowns right?

Well, wait a year and Morrowind expansion will also go on sale.

Sheesh. lol

I suspect a large percentage of us who buy DLC buy our crowns when the regularly go on sale. We all know about these sales at this point. I would guess that there will be another one around the housing launch to encourage people to buy crown store housing stuff.

I don't see why we should base the calculation on how bad shoppers buy things. The idea that $1 = 100 crowns is silly when we are talking about buying DLC where all but one cost more that 1500 crowns. Similar for expensive mounts.

A better objection to my post would be that IC came out before there were any crown sales so people who buy DLC at launch would have had to buy a more expensive pack. That is a reasonable criticism. Not the case for all the DLC after IC.

willlienellson

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Do you have a crystal ball or something because until we get to see what we actually have, we don't know

Did you read what Zos has said about the expansion or just the forum?

willlienellson

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

snip

You missed my point.

You are saying we shouldn't equate the price of Morrowind in dollars to the dollar value of DLC priced in crowns, because crowns sometimes go on sale.

Morrowind will also sometimes go on sale. Count on it.

Ojustaboo

willlienellson wrote: »

The main story is quoted as 30 hours. .

I initially thought that was what they said, but it isn't.

If you look here

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2017/02/01/welcome-to-2017

they say

This means a new player will experience the Chapter as a 30-hour game, but with a hundreds-of-hours-of-content massive Online RPG to experience afterwards.

In other words they are saying that the chapter is 30 hrs of gaming and then they can do the rest of ESO afterwards.

likewise on

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2017/01/31/the-elder-scrolls-online-morrowind--announcement-and-details

they say

This June, the next Chapter in The Elder Scrolls Online will begin. Return to the iconic island of Vvardenfell for over 30 hours of adventure in a brand new location

Ojustaboo

willlienellson wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Do you have a crystal ball or something because until we get to see what we actually have, we don't know

Did you read what Zos has said about the expansion or just the forum?

Read what they said and watched the live feed when it was announced.

Likewise I watched Quakecon in 2015 when they said that ESO+ subscribers would get quarterly dlc as part of their subs that non subscribers would have to pay for in the store.

DaveMoeDee

willlienellson wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

snip

You missed my point.

You are saying we shouldn't equate the price of Morrowind in dollars to the dollar value of DLC priced in crowns, because crowns sometimes go on sale.

Morrowind will also sometimes go on sale. Count on it.

Yeah, but a lot of us have crowns right now that we can use to buy Morrowind **at launch**. Waiting for discounts is fundamentally different than buying at launch with a discounted currency. It is like the difference between buying each DLC at launch versus buying the 4 bundled. You had to wait a year to get the 4 bundled.

Eshelmen

Just look on the brighter side of things. For those whom are canceling their sub, thank ZOS for saving you $15 a month! What a swell company!

Woolenthreads

As far as I can tell the difference between "Expansion" and "DLC" is that ESO Plus Subscribers are required to pay for the Expansion separately to their subscription. It is likely that further DLC will still be available to them. I don't see a problem with this to be honest, there's a lot of content and from what I've read it's a very different setup in someways - though they still won't be letting us fly

sevomd69

brandonv516 wrote: »

ESO itself is downloadable and it is full of content. That doesn't mean it is downloadable content (DLC).

Move along here lol.

Agreed... All the vanity stuff (pets, mounts...) are downloadable and content, but... you know I give up...

Ojustaboo wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

I know a lot of people are complaining that this is an "expansion" instead of a "DLC" and will be sold for real world currency instead of accessible via membership and/or bought with crowns.
But I think it's instructive to consider this in contrast to the other offerings by this company over the last few months that people (myself included) have complained about.

People are always trying to judge the "ethics" of companies based on things like their social responsibility or their environmental impact, but way back in the day we judged a company's ethics by if they delivered VALUE to consumers. It's still one of the cornerstones of business ethics (for people actually in business) and is the other side of the coin of Marketing.

FIRST,
Make no mistake about it, the reason most items are sold with "crowns" is because it allows you to divorce the real cost of the item from the decision to purchase it. These imaginary currencies exist specifically to keep you from analyzing the value of the purchase.

Furthermore, once people are hooked into the stream of converting real world currency for imaginary currency, it's much easier to convince you to buy junk that has no value. If you literally pulled out a credit card to pay $35 for a mount, many of you would be forced to consider than transaction in the context of what other things you could buy for $35 in the real world. Going to the movies, getting an oil change, a new sweater, etc.

But when your real life money has already been converted to crowns, the decision simply becomes "which one of these few limited crown offerings should I buy"?

SECOND,
Due to that, it's very easy to make absolute worthless junk and sell it. Things like a child's refrigerator drawing of a reindeer stretched over a horse skeleton for 4000 crowns.

It's like the old Seinfield quote. "It's a show about nothing. So why would they watch it? .......Because it's on TV"

They are trying to sell you nothing. Why would you buy it? Because it's in the crown store.

This has led to a feedback loop of negativity and LESS VALUE. The worse the items are in the crown store, the more people save their crowns, the more Zos overcharges for even more unrefined junk in an attempt to get you to use up the crowns.

BUT THIS IS A BETTER DIRECTION.
Zos has my congratulations on both offering real value with this expansion (as far as I can tell so far) and offering it for a legitimate price in the realm of normal commerce.
Anyone complaining about the cost of this expansion and the demand of real world currency for it has been duped by the fake currency system of crowns. This expansion offers the best value offering by Zos in years, if not since the launch of the game.

This expansion comes with a costume, mount, armor converter, pets, and more. Prior to this, the most recent mount cost over half as much as this expansion by itself...and it SUCKED. lol

THIS IS VALUE. GOOD JOB ZENIMAX.
I hope they have tremendous sales and make massive revenue from this expansion so they return to offering real content, real value, for real money.
(too bad Homestead doesn't feel more that way)

You may well be right..

Then again you could be totally wrong too.

Do you have a crystal ball or something because until we get to see what we actually have, we don't know

It could be this is the best thing Zos has released

But equally it t could be that Zos know how popular Morrowind is, and are taking advantage of it.

Based in their past record, I wouldn't take what they say as gospel at all

Also, in the basic upgrade package, I get a pet dog (which I like) , Warden costume which I have zero interest in, treasure Maps (lately I've been destroying ones I find, maybe these will have better loot, who knows), crown crates and xp scrolls which are of no interest to me.

I don't get a mount and I don't get armour converter.

If being 100% absolutely, unequivocally right about the future was requisite to post on a forum... it would be a pretty barren place in here...

Cpt_Teemo

Norn wrote: »

40$ for a trial and a class(that may or may not be good) doesn't scream value to me.

One mount did for most, I would rather take the expansion than one mount tbh. But that's my thought, I don't speak for others.

willlienellson

Ojustaboo wrote: »

experience the Chapter as a 30-hour game

Well, that is disappointing. I don't know if they clarified it or I just had wishful thinking, but I really thought it was just the main quest line as 30 hours. I still say this is a move in the right direction and represents better value than we've seen from Zos lately. I guess we'll have to wait and see how many hours of actual gameplay (not counting PvP) we get from the game, but I do think an "expansion/chapter" should be more hours of gameplay.

I wonder how many hours of gameplay came with the GW2 expansion?

Stopnaggin

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

"Join Sprint's Unlimited Data plan and never be charged overages again"

Which means, SO LONG AS THEY OFFER THAT PACKAGE.

Nobody in their right minds would suggest Sprint is now obligated (legally or morally) to offer an unlimited package forever.

Oh the joys of arguing with you



My original claim:

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Full access to DLC was promised to subscribers in perpetuity.

Your challenge:

willlienellson wrote: »

Can I get a source on this "promise in perpetuity"?
... I'm anxious to read these wedding vow like promises Zos made to you.

My response:

What Pete Hines ACTUALLY said on ESO LIVE in relation to subscribers:

So the idea there as it relates to DLC is I dont EVER have to worry about what DLC is coming out when, I just get to play ALL OF IT.

I never said they were legally obligated to keep their word, I just implied they were scumbags for going back on it. There is no such thing as moral obligation. You have every right to break your word as I have every right to call you scum for doing so. But that is irrelevant. Your challenge was simple. Provide evidence of a promise. Evidence provided. You can eat one of these now.

Just for kicks where is the "promise" in that staement? I see an "idea" and "expect" in the previous statements. I have subbed since launch I have had access to all dlc, 1500 crowns a month, xp and gold gains, and more recently a craft bag, in now way do I feel duped or cheated.

I will go a step further. I paid $60 for the base game and $20 or so for the Imperial edition upgrade. I got well over 80 hours of play, less that 1 dollar per hour. I sub for $15 a month, which gives me 1500 crowns, and equal value as they are sold, and access to the aforementioned items. I get to play more that 15 hours a month, so still under $1 per hour. The real question is are you getting value for your money? If so be happy, play the game and enjoy. If not then it may be time to move along.

Jemcrystal

I am happy to defend the subscribers but lately I have been getting tired of the "this mmo went to crap since we let those free players in" attitude (on various forums outside this game and some times even here). Umm, scuze me? I am a free mmorpg player and my life and soul are as valuable as yours. There is nothing about my FREE azz that has ruined your game. I have supported and upheld it in conversations across the internet. No I did not buy anything from the cash shop. No I did not buy anything in the crown store. Yes I agree ZoS should increase the value of subscriptions by offering them more than us free players have. But I did not ruin your game or have anything to do with this decision by ZoS. And if I get any more people trying to blame me for ZoS decision I am going to change my leaf and ask for this game to go NO SUB.