PTS Feedback Thread for Sorcerer Balance Improvements

KramUzibra

Tonturri wrote: »

On Implosion, since I see a guy up near the top of the page whining about it - I think the current implementation is quite horrid but in the current incarnation if it pops up that's on you. Imo. I've written up a post in another game's forum about 'combat consistency', where generally you can expect the same amount of difficulty/results/etc from pull to pull...aka things that rarely proc during a fight - or every couple fights - are bad combat design (Implooosion). It's a chance - a very small chance - for me to instantly kill whatever I'm fighting when they're below 15% (the ridiculously low health % requirement aside...)

A while ago I sent in a ticket suggestion. It was as follows.
- There's math that can be done in order to adjust the proc chance, health threshhold and proc-damage. Adjust it such that the proc chance is 30%, health threshold is 33%. Lower the proc damage so that it gives the same DPS as the current incarnation (something-somethingPvE-something). Have the proc damage scale off health. Have it do 1% of proc damage when target is at 33% health, and have it scale linearly between 33%-0%. Something like that. I've always imagined it as a scaling weapon enchantment/execute for added pressure. Added pressure while fighting, mind, something my opponent notices and goes 'oh dear, I should keep my health a little higher', not 'well...he got lucky and I died instantly, gg'.

Or they could just make it a 'Gain x% lightning damage bonus based on damage done/whateveritscalesoffof on next ability after a fully charged heavy attack. Encourage people to do more heavy atttacks + give a little burst afterwards, then nerf dark deal or something.

Again, there's likely math that can be done in order to ensure the DPS output is the same. I'm not going to do it (I did it in the ticket but I didn't make a log of the damn thing and I'm not gonna do it again). The above percentages are just placeholders. Kindly do not disregard this post because the percentages and proc chances and whatever were pulled out of my ass, or because the current meta is something or other and ZOS is slow to deal with or...Yeah. I just want this passive to be useful, I like it ;-; I do believe I've gotten the gist of my idea across. Anyway, the goal is to
1) Ensure PvE dps remains the same.
2) Give the passive a consistent presence in fights - seeing it pop up every 3-4 fights in PvP is ridiculous. Magblades don't get their 8% magicka once every 4 fights, nor does battle roar only work on the 4th person you use it on.Again, I'd like my character's strength/damage output/performance to be consistent through each fight, especially since this passive is(could be) stronger than most other passives.
3) Make the passive actually...useful (in PvP - I'm aware it is useful in PvE)? It's a lovely passive, but I don't think I've ever seen a build that actually utilizes it**. The thing is just...there, and you go 'oh well lookie that, I'm lucky today' when it procs and saves you the button press of killing the person (who was going to die anyway no matter what you did so really nothing much changed)
4) But not too strong. We don't want to end up with basically Viper, but in class passive form. Hence the 'scale dmg off health' thing. And maybe nerf the damage a bit, or have it not proc off dots - only direct hits.

**Wait hold on I think I saw one person ever actually use the passive. A heavy, DW stam sorc. DW passive + Flurry multi hit + dots gave them decently reliable procs, if I recall correctly, but that's it.

TLDR Implosion right now is stupid and it really irritates me. There's a game from 10 YEARS ago that uses a similar 'super super low proc chance, procs once every couple of fights' type deal, but why ESO is using it I will never know. Plz change. I sad that PTS come and go without a change to this.

X% lighting damage sounds awesome! Pls make this change zos.

Lord-Otto

Morgul667 wrote: »

Thanks for the reverse on curse, appreciated.

Wonder what a good build / stuff will be with this update for sorcerer ;/ any good idea on what to farm ? burning spellweave ?

BSW is definitely worth farming - the body pieces, not the weapon. Because of minor vulnerability, people might consider lightning blockade more, but I think Liquid Lightning will proc it enough. Alcast did a dps test and got good results.
Julianos/TBS will be closer now thanks to Warhorn nerf.
I'd say not much changes. Get BSW gear.

asterixchaos

Father_X_Zombie wrote: »

I really don't believe it, why curse??? Ive heard more people complain about mages fury! Did you make a special effort to kill duel wield Sorcs? You took away Dawnbreaker twice, inevitable det, trapping webs, buffed the destro staff and overall nerfed Sorcs to pretty much pigeonhole us into destro staffs. All duel wield Sorcs have for burst is curse and frags but now you took that. Wtf is the reasoning behind this nerf!? Nobody asked for it, its not needed and its not wanted, revert it.

This poster almost perfectly captures how I'm feeling, ZOS.

I thought this was an Elder Scrolls game. I thought this was "Play how you want."

If you're going to start enforcing rigid character class lines, then give me more than 4 character classes.

We play Elder Scrolls titles for the freedom of choice. For months and months you've been wringing the choice out of us in favor of pigeonholes.

Stop that, please. Urgently.

f047ys3v3n

That new duration on curse looks juicy. 8 wall, 8.5 curse, 10 LL are pretty good timings. They are long enough for a backbar of the DOTS and close enough to each other that each rotation will be able to be run the same with little or no loss. It should also leave enough room on front bar for bound armaments, magelight, and shield for a lot of passive dps increase and survivability. It also has half the bar changes per rotation of my current sorc build which will be a big dps pick up just from less swapping let alone more crystal fragging. It is much better than my current NB which will be 8 cripple,8 wall, 8 relentless (you can choose duration and is raid redudent), 11.5 twisting after the update. What are you supposed to do with that?

I'll probably run the sorc with:
bound, frags, forcepulse, magelight, sheild with moondancer stave front
wall, curse, liquid lightning, critsurge, bound with vMA stave on back bar

Tell me that doesn't look like an amazing, clean, rotation. You could also swap the bound for mages wrath and storm, mages wrath and rune, or even volatile familiar both bars. I'm not sure exactly which will be better but the rotation looks very clean and with a lot of utility either way. Timings are everything and the duration changes on the sorc timings look to make it very clean while already having probably the best single target / aoe cleave dps out there and the best proc rate on llambris / BSW which is the best ranged gear. It will be very fun to play with such a clean rotation and such good survivability.

Very nice indeed and certainly still huge in PVP as well as the curse, wrath, frags combination has always been the best burst damage in the game and burst is PVP. Also, I think magic will be better than stam in PVP as well after the update as the spinning blades zergs are not going to survive AOE cap changes and lots of ranged AOE's. Tossing LL, fire ring, destro ulti, and mages wrath into a blade zerg while wearing vicious death, sign me up.

RinaldoGandolphi

Magic Sorc probably got a buff in PVE with Haunting Curse and the Lighting Staff changes, in PVP however they got nothing, and i'd argue they fell behind the other classes.

The desto staff changes and skill line changes are OK, and will indirectly help magic sorc, but their class lines got no changes or buffs at all, where as Templar, DK, and Nightblade all got sigificant changes/buffs. I play Templar mostly nowadays so its not a big deal to me.

Sorc will be good in PVE, and its now my dedicated pve toon

GawdSB

I still don't get why hurricane is getting nerfed, you're already nerfimg stamina builds in general. It's like you don't want me to play stam. Stam Sorc will officially he turned into my VMA robot and that's about all it'll be used for. Thanks ZOS.

Lord-Otto

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Magic Sorc probably got a buff in PVE with Haunting Curse and the Lighting Staff changes, in PVP however they got nothing, and i'd argue they fell behind the other classes.

The desto staff changes and skill line changes are OK, and will indirectly help magic sorc, but their class lines got no changes or buffs at all, where as Templar, DK, and Nightblade all got sigificant changes/buffs. I play Templar mostly nowadays so its not a big deal to me.

Sorc will be good in PVE, and its now my dedicated pve toon

RIP the dream...

cpuScientist

Yes that Templar radiant buff and shard auto stun are huuuge buffs. And OMG that Nightblade reduced cost on their spammable so much easier to sustain.

DK got a heal really is all.

Sorcs will continue to be fine and now our spammable which really only sorcs use in PvP cannot be reflected. We are fine as wine in the summertime. Stam sorcs got a but if the shaft though 33% nerf on hurricane WTF.

Izaki

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

That new duration on curse looks juicy. 8 wall, 8.5 curse, 10 LL are pretty good timings. They are long enough for a backbar of the DOTS and close enough to each other that each rotation will be able to be run the same with little or no loss. It should also leave enough room on front bar for bound armaments, magelight, and shield for a lot of passive dps increase and survivability. It also has half the bar changes per rotation of my current sorc build which will be a big dps pick up just from less swapping let alone more crystal fragging. It is much better than my current NB which will be 8 cripple,8 wall, 8 relentless (you can choose duration and is raid redudent), 11.5 twisting after the update. What are you supposed to do with that?

I'll probably run the sorc with:
bound, frags, forcepulse, magelight, sheild with moondancer stave front
wall, curse, liquid lightning, critsurge, bound with vMA stave on back bar

Tell me that doesn't look like an amazing, clean, rotation. You could also swap the bound for mages wrath and storm, mages wrath and rune, or even volatile familiar both bars. I'm not sure exactly which will be better but the rotation looks very clean and with a lot of utility either way. Timings are everything and the duration changes on the sorc timings look to make it very clean while already having probably the best single target / aoe cleave dps out there and the best proc rate on llambris / BSW which is the best ranged gear. It will be very fun to play with such a clean rotation and such good survivability.

Very nice indeed and certainly still huge in PVP as well as the curse, wrath, frags combination has always been the best burst damage in the game and burst is PVP. Also, I think magic will be better than stam in PVP as well after the update as the spinning blades zergs are not going to survive AOE cap changes and lots of ranged AOE's. Tossing LL, fire ring, destro ulti, and mages wrath into a blade zerg while wearing vicious death, sign me up.

First, Curse duration is 12 seconds, not 8.5, I agree that Rich's post was misleading, but the people who tested it all confirmed that it lasted 12 seconds and not 8.5, which is a shame. The rotation won't be too clean, especially on consoles where you'd have to keep track of a 8.5 second interval between your explosions rather than just simply reapplying it as it is on live. So IMO they've made the rotation harder and also more boring than it was before (seriously how hard is it? LL > WoE > Curse > FPx3 > Curse > FP > rinse and repeat).

Second, why are you front barring a shield and using Surge? You should be using spell power potions, not Surge, its a huge loss of DPS (losing 1 Force Pulse or Frags every 3 rotations). Now that they've fixed Inner Light overriding potions, you can back bar a shield (if you REALLY want one) and front bar the execute. Execute on the front bar, means Frags in execute phase = DPS increase.

Third, if you're not running an execute as a magicka sorcerer you are losing DPS, it should be on your bars regardless?

Forth, Merciless nets the highest DPS potential when using once every 20 seconds, not spammed. Same goes for Relentless for stamina NBs. BTW you can always front bar Twisting Path and switch something else over to the back. That way you'll be able to refresh the path as it runs out while keeping a clean rotation with Cripple and WoE (much like stam sorcs with Hurricane).

That's all I have to say and suggest.

Izaki

STEVIL wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Why are you discussing so much about stuff that is not gonna happen on this pts cycle, instead of things that might change now?

Like, ehem, second proc at 8.5s from cast and not 12s

uhh... Ok so there have been lotsa posts about 8.5s v 12s already this week since the issue got ferretted out and what do you think us repeating those points again will accomplish?

is there some secret new info about 8.5 v 12 that has changed since yesterday?

or have the rules of mathematics been altered since the oath was taken in DC?

if not then are we still at:
First boom at 3.5s.
Second boom seems to be at 12 which matches one post but mismatches another and some think that BOOST to the power many said was fine without it at all is BAD and some think its fine and some think its Op... just like yesterday?

is there really that much more that needs to be said when:
The original 6-12 nerf to burst boost to sustain got lotsa "it was fine as is".
They reverted it back and ADDED the second tick making it as good for burst or better for some sustain but the player can choose in play whether to recast or wait the second tick. plenty were "hey its ok now again better ok"

So now that it might be 12s or 8.5s added boom there needs to be lotsa posts and discussion about the degree to which the "was Ok before" skill gets some optional sustain added at maybe 8.5 but maybe 12?

Really?

Reverting to 3.5 was big and key and important. it deserved discussion and got plenty of thanks.

Whether the double whammy they added was an 8.5s or a 12s second hit option, seriously, is not a big deal. It wont matter much for burst cuz it wont be used and for sustain its small difference.

nobody will lose sleep over 8.5 v 12 second whammy.

Now, if they gave the double whammy to Daedric Prey, thats a significant change and so far no indication thats happening which prolly means you dont want that discussed here either. (Should also get "pet magnet" added to Dp but that also not seen in PTS so off limits i guess?)

Just one thing. PvE wise, there's a big difference between the 8.5 and 12 second "whammy".
With 8.5 seconds, the rotation would have been really smooth and clean just like the devs intended it to be.
With 12 seconds? How do you keep track of a 8.5 seconds interval between those ticks without buff trackers? Its going to be extremely clunky, it will take too much focus away from the fight/mechanics and finally the rotation will be much more boring because of the added Force Pulse spam with not much in between. Velocious Curse was a way to monitor your rotation, you knew how many casts there were per rotation and you knew how many weaves you could do in between each one. Sure its a good change for sustain, sure its a good change for DPS as it frees up a global. But it goes the exactly opposite way of what the devs wanted to do with Curse: make the rotation easier.

So yeah, I'm already trying to get my head around timing Curse every 12 seconds without any sort of buff trackers on Xbox. In a DPS test, its fine cause you can see the explosions. In vMoL? There are 3 other sorcs in the group who also use Curse + all the other animations, meaning you don't see anything. I'll get used to it. All the best sorcs will get used to it. All the new comers will have trouble.

IMO.

Natas013

Called it, they took away curse with the intentions of giving it back in order distract from the glaring issues with sorcs that predate DB

Joy_Division

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Magic Sorc probably got a buff in PVE with Haunting Curse and the Lighting Staff changes, in PVP however they got nothing, and i'd argue they fell behind the other classes.

The desto staff changes and skill line changes are OK, and will indirectly help magic sorc, but their class lines got no changes or buffs at all, where as Templar, DK, and Nightblade all got sigificant changes/buffs. I play Templar mostly nowadays so its not a big deal to me.

Sorc will be good in PVE, and its now my dedicated pve toon

I'm just curious how much you've played your sorc since the TG patch. Because while I thought as well they were gimped from what was in the patch notes, they aren't.

And they're aren't falling behind in anything ... except perhaps the troll potential of a perma-block, but can't kill anything, frost staff templar.

Ghostextechnica

Question: in PVE most magsorc's currently use fire blockade as part of our rotation, however, with the buff to AOE damage when using lightning staffs.. will it now be more dps to put elemental blockade on our AOE bar and use lightning blockade instead?

Erasure

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

That new duration on curse looks juicy. 8 wall, 8.5 curse, 10 LL are pretty good timings.

It goes off 8.5 after 3.5, or at 12. Test.

STEVIL

Ghostextechnica wrote: »

Question: in PVE most magsorc's currently use fire blockade as part of our rotation, however, with the buff to AOE damage when using lightning staffs.. will it now be more dps to put elemental blockade on our AOE bar and use lightning blockade instead?

In general you are likely to start seeing new structures built around the AOE vs targeted divide - its too good to pass up - however - the key for DOT is each ticks gets the buff only if the tick happens when the staff is on.

So dropping to a lightning bar to drop an aoe then swapping back in rotation to fire side wont get you much buff at all cuz most of the aoe ticks will be on the fire-side no-aoe bonus.

So, IMO, you might start seeing more akin to builds with an AOE bar with lightning staff and a buff/execute bar with fire staff (or lightning still.) Spend most of the fight on the AOE bar with brief visits to the buffex bar - then switch to the buffex bar full time when the health of the boss is low enough. I know that is the direction i am leaning.

Either way, the aoe/lightning target/fire thing seems to me to have a slight downturn in DOT preference in mixed staff builds.

Lord-Otto

On that note, I am a bit ungrateful regarding destro passives. Physical weapons simply grant more punch, but staves gotta be tailored towards battlefield situation.
Granted, the buff is welcome, but it makes builds and rotations more difficult. Exact the opposite of ZOS' new concept. Kinda reminds me of how destructive clench got its properties spread across the staves back then - almost no one's used it ever after.
But it could be way less of an inconvenience than I think. We'll see.

STEVIL

Lord-Otto wrote: »

On that note, I am a bit ungrateful regarding destro passives. Physical weapons simply grant more punch, but staves gotta be tailored towards battlefield situation.
Granted, the buff is welcome, but it makes builds and rotations more difficult. Exact the opposite of ZOS' new concept. Kinda reminds me of how destructive clench got its properties spread across the staves back then - almost no one's used it ever after.
But it could be way less of an inconvenience than I think. We'll see.

I see it differently.

i see it as changing one of the parameters for builds... and you will see changed builds to accomodate it.

one of the ideas i had floated for traits included making them more circumstantial - less just math exercizes - but more determined by the "other guy" and it included armor trait that was better at stopping AOE damage.

premise was to try and get to "nothing is best everywhere and everything is best somewhere" balance between the options. So "my best magsorc" build might be very different for city of ash than for fungal grotto or for the three boss fight than for the rat swarm summoner boss fight.

this may also cause some serious re-figuring for destro-resto builds where you only have one buff - aoe or target - on the build.

Lord-Otto

Hm, it's just a feeling I have there. For PvE, mind you. I'm sure people and builds will adapt, eventually.
What I'm particularly curious about is AoE and single bar. Liquid Lightning would be on lightning back bar, for AoE. But Fire Blockade would have to be on the single target bar then. And if you use Lightning Blockade, what about Ilambris? Having Mage's Wrath on my Overload bar on the back now will also be ineffective. And if I put OL on the front, I will be struggling to acces my ward on the back in OL mode.
See? Many unanswered questions to me. Gotta wait for numbers from the theory crafters.
(^_^);
For PvP, it's all cool. No change here, Eye of Flame still better than lightning, 'cause vamps.

Chadak

As someone that's only been playing a few months, these changes look like 100% annoyance with no upside to me at all.

VC is pretty central to how I've been playing. I babe no idea what to echo think about replacing it with.

Why do so many sorc abilities suck? Why is there not one single decent spammable attack as a class ability?

Bah.

psychotic13

Chadak wrote: »

As someone that's only been playing a few months, these changes look like 100% annoyance with no upside to me at all.

VC is pretty central to how I've been playing. I babe no idea what to echo think about replacing it with.

Why do so many sorc abilities suck? Why is there not one single decent spammable attack as a class ability?

Bah.

All classes lack something, that's just the way it is.

Sorcs don't have a spammable, DKs don't have an execute, Templars have no class self buff for sorcery/brutality and NBs... well I can't really think of a downside, no class burst heal unless you kill ?

Birdovic

Chadak wrote: »

As someone that's only been playing a few months, these changes look like 100% annoyance with no upside to me at all.

VC is pretty central to how I've been playing. I babe no idea what to echo think about replacing it with.

Why do so many sorc abilities suck? Why is there not one single decent spammable attack as a class ability?

Bah.

Don't worry about velocious curse, it got changed.
It will now explode after 3.5s and then after 8.5s again. This means in PvP nothing will change, except you can even backbar it for the 2nd explosion if you like to.

"Why so many Sorc abilities suck":
I think Sorc abilities overall are in a good place, you can pull off great Burst combos.
However, a missing Spammable WAS annoying, because we had to rely on force pulse which was easily reflected.
That said, force pulse becomes stronger (better destro passives) and finally is unreflectable, too.
I think we are good to go now.

For the other Sorc abilities, I'd still like to see:
- Bound Armaments: being activate just from slotting, with an active ability (like Inner Light, pets active abilities). Maybe a Buff that adds X shock damage to light and heavy Attacks for Y seconds?
- Chrystal Blast: Make this anything finally, lol
- Shattering Prison: Change the damage to shock damage(maybe on Chrystal blast, too?)
- First, Combine both Atronachs morphs into 1, next, change the free Morph into "minor berserk for caster, as long the atronach is active", so finally solo Sorc players have a reliable Dmg class ultimate choice, besides overload and negate
- Daedric Prey: Improve duration to 12sec so pets can make proper use of the damage Buff
- Lightning Flood: Add something like Debuffs to this, it's absolutely unused because longer duration (other morph) Is just way better

Passives:

"Blood Magic":
Change this to proc on activation, instead of hitting enemies + lower the Heal to 3%

"Expert Summoner":
Increases Max Health by 2%/4%.
If you have a daedric summoning pet active, increase health by an additional 2%/4%

Also possible: Increase Max Health by 4%8% as long as you have a PET active (not bound to class abilities)

"Exploitation":
Also grants Minor Sorcery to you for 3 seconds, every time you activate a Dark Magic Ability.

RinaldoGandolphi

cpuScientist wrote: »

Yes that Templar radiant buff and shard auto stun are huuuge buffs. And OMG that Nightblade reduced cost on their spammable so much easier to sustain.

DK got a heal really is all.

Sorcs will continue to be fine and now our spammable which really only sorcs use in PvP cannot be reflected. We are fine as wine in the summertime. Stam sorcs got a but if the shaft though 33% nerf on hurricane WTF.

The Radiant change really does not change things for me, Radiant will still kill at 25% health where I use it. the Buff to Purifying Light will be awesome, and my Templar uses s Destro staff so I get those benefits too. Being able to cast Total Dark on unlimited amount of targets gives it situational utility.

Luminious Shards was always better for PVP due to its stun being a Disoreint that ignores block.

With Black Rose and other sets now having Jewels Templars got buffed even more.

Cinbri

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Yes that Templar radiant buff and shard auto stun are huuuge buffs. And OMG that Nightblade reduced cost on their spammable so much easier to sustain.

DK got a heal really is all.

Sorcs will continue to be fine and now our spammable which really only sorcs use in PvP cannot be reflected. We are fine as wine in the summertime. Stam sorcs got a but if the shaft though 33% nerf on hurricane WTF.

The Radiant change really does not change things for me, Radiant will still kill at 25% health where I use it. the Buff to Purifying Light will be awesome, and my Templar uses s Destro staff so I get those benefits too. Being able to cast Total Dark on unlimited amount of targets gives it situational utility.

Luminious Shards was always better for PVP due to its stun being a Disoreint that ignores block.

With Black Rose and other sets now having Jewels Templars got buffed even more.

1. ~4% more from Purifyaing Light is hardly an super strong buff for pve, it was changed only for PvP where it indeed nice fix.
2. Total Dark now unlimited is nice but now it reflect even less skills than it could before, since beams unreflectable now, and in pve it still useless, given that it cost same as BoL...
3. Luminous was literally never better in PvP and if nothing will be changed noone in pvp will use this morph for simple reason that it not apply CC:

4. Black Rose literally used by everyone already and adding jewels and weapons won't change things much in pvp.
So, beside Purifying Light revamp for pvp, I don't see super strong buffs, while removed stun from Blazing Spear while Luminous CC not working will be noticable nerf. Radiant Aura also nice but choosing it means not be able to use Repentance, forced to choose either one or another of strong morphs, so it will just increase of builds' diversity. Templar will be mostly affected by side changes like frost tanking, but that is not particular class-related things.

Dagoth_Rac

STEVIL wrote: »

premise was to try and get to "nothing is best everywhere and everything is best somewhere" balance between the options. So "my best magsorc" build might be very different for city of ash than for fungal grotto or for the three boss fight than for the rat swarm summoner boss fight.

That sounds awful. Grinding/farming for my gear is a long, miserable RNG journey as it is. Now I will need to have a whole bunch of gear I need to grind for that I never did before because it is situationally required? Ugh. If acquiring gear were a reasonable timesink in this game, I could get behind various different sets being better in various different situations. But when it takes months to get the weapon or shoulder you want, having that weapon or shoulder only work in a few battles and needing to grind yet more gear for other fights? That has me rage quitting the game written all over it...

Chilla_Deluxe

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Mazoku_ wrote: »

I would like to start by thanking you *ZOS for retaining the 3.5 s burst for the haunting curse re work.
Now, i have always played magsorc pvp with a lighting staff. It's my playstyle and have always preferred it over flame or frost. And i know many other sorcs feel the same way.
Now with these new changes to the passives (flame staff increases damage with single target abilities) isn't this forcing all of us to use flame staff for pvp?
I mean who wouldn't want to squeeze the most dps out of their curse, execute , frags, and pulse?
I think it is taking away freedom of choice when it comes to your pvp staff and i believe thats wrong. Why should everyone be forced into using a staff they might not like just so they can remain competitive?

Minalan wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

NightSquirrel wrote: »

Stam sorcs should not be able to proc implosions, that is my two-cents.

They don't necessarily have to do anything except add a skill point in their class passives. Implosion just happens while they fight. If anything reduce the dmg to be comparable to an enchant around 2 thousand. Getting hit with 10k+ is way too powerful. Personally I don't think it should exist at all but I'll take a compromise if zos is willing.

Now correct me if i am wrong but arent there a lot of passives that can result in damage?

crit boosts for assassination passives, Stealth boosts for 10%, etc.

never will understand the artifical line between damage listed on recap separately from massive boosts like crits deliver which are added-in to the base powers.

To me, its how much damage you do and when and so forth - not how the recap lists it.

Don't forget 8% max magicka for nightblades. I'd take that over a 5% execute chance passive any day.

Some people want to pretend that one hit at full health means implosion procs left and right. That's asinine. It only triggers when you're almost dead anyways.

So you believe its ok and balanced for a sorc to passively grant you a 5 to 10k+ burst damage that finishes your target for you when I need to run an execute that requires me to physically activate an ability in order to do the same thing?

... it has a 5% proc chance. Statistically it needs to hit you twenty times at extremely low health to go off. You're either bad at math, or just hopelessly blubbering at this point with the e-tears everywhere.

Yeah I kind of laugh it off when it happens to me. I shrug, say "lucky shot", then res up. Most of the time when I die to it, I would have died with or without the implosion. So All he gets is a cool disintegrate animation out of it. And I have to admit, it is cool.

I'm aware of the proc chance, I run a medium armor dk so I get bursted down within that threshold that's procs implosion very often and have been killed by extremely high proced implosions. I will say this it happens far more frequent with stam sorcs. Usually with other classes I have an opportunity to roll dodge vigor rally I cant do that when the sorcs can passively execute me. Mind you it's an execute that you can not see thus 0 counter play. Again damage like that should be applied thru player intervention not freely given.

its 6% chance when you take damage at 15% health or less. if we assume 30k health thats 4500 health - proc dead so what?

My bet is the passive pen from light armor or the various medium armor passives have contributed more to your death than this 6% last legs kill proc does - heck the minor sorcery passive likely has.

just because it appears on your recap doesn't mean its why you died... many things more likely critical to your death dont show on recaps as separate items.

matter of fact, CCs are likely responsible for far more deaths if you really get down to it than implosion procs ever have and CC dont show on recaps damage lists at all.

but if you are spending enough time at <15% health that you are this animated about a 6% chance... my bet is really implosion is way way down on the list of things you should be focusing on.

Just because the last 15% of a fall passes by more quickly than the previous parts... doesn't mean that last 155 is what killed you or is responsible for your death.

I'm ok with buffs and debuffs contributing to my death as long as what kills me is a direct response to a players command. Why argu so hard on keeping a passive that supposably doesn't matter. Why not grant sorcs increase spell pen while I'm in that threshold at least in that case your character wouldn't passively finish your target or you.

for the record, i really could care less about implosion as a sorc. i hardly ever notice it.

Replace Implosion with OVERTIME and i would do a happy dance.

OVERTIME: An active toggled power can last fully active for 3s/6s after you swap to a bar where the toggle is not slotted. if you swap back to a bar where it is slotted before the overtime period elapses the toggled power continues without fail. if you dont swap back in time, the toggle power shuts down as normal.

but let me get this straight...

• You drop to 15% health
• The sorc hits you with a light attack.
• Liquid lightning tics.
• Implosions procs you die
• You are not ok with that.

On the other hand...

• You drop to 15% health
• The sorc hits you with a light attack
• implosion procs
• Liquid lightning tics and you die
• You are ok with that.

Do i have that right?

Umm no I'm not ok with implosion ever. I'm not ok with free no skill damage ie proc sets. Essentially implosion is like vipers, it's free damage and requires no skill to achieve it just happens.

Nah its nowhere near vipers, what are the chances your enemys gonna be on 15% (most players will recover almost instantly) enough so the 6% chance procs. With that being said under 15% health on an average 25k hp target is around 4k health (estimate) which 1 execute at that hp would finish you off anyway. So why whine over a skill that will be responsible for your death 6% of the 94% of the time? If the 6% does proc.

RinaldoGandolphi

Cinbri wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

Yes that Templar radiant buff and shard auto stun are huuuge buffs. And OMG that Nightblade reduced cost on their spammable so much easier to sustain.

DK got a heal really is all.

Sorcs will continue to be fine and now our spammable which really only sorcs use in PvP cannot be reflected. We are fine as wine in the summertime. Stam sorcs got a but if the shaft though 33% nerf on hurricane WTF.

The Radiant change really does not change things for me, Radiant will still kill at 25% health where I use it. the Buff to Purifying Light will be awesome, and my Templar uses s Destro staff so I get those benefits too. Being able to cast Total Dark on unlimited amount of targets gives it situational utility.

Luminious Shards was always better for PVP due to its stun being a Disoreint that ignores block.

With Black Rose and other sets now having Jewels Templars got buffed even more.

1. ~4% more from Purifyaing Light is hardly an super strong buff for pve, it was changed only for PvP where it indeed nice fix.
2. Total Dark now unlimited is nice but now it reflect even less skills than it could before, since beams unreflectable now, and in pve it still useless, given that it cost same as BoL...
3. Luminous was literally never better in PvP and if nothing will be changed noone in pvp will use this morph for simple reason that it not apply CC:

4. Black Rose literally used by everyone already and adding jewels and weapons won't change things much in pvp.
So, beside Purifying Light revamp for pvp, I don't see super strong buffs, while removed stun from Blazing Spear while Luminous CC not working will be noticable nerf. Radiant Aura also nice but choosing it means not be able to use Repentance, forced to choose either one or another of strong morphs, so it will just increase of builds' diversity. Templar will be mostly affected by side changes like frost tanking, but that is not particular class-related things.

Luminious Shards will break if ANY kind of damage including any kind of DOT from a weapon enchant or anything damages them, its used to break block on Tank toons to open up windows to damage them, and if your group uses the Synergy its a decent magicka and stamina return. The stun always works for me unless i damage or DOT them.

Total Dark is situaltional as always but its still better then it was

Purifying Light will help us in the burst damage department

Your also forgetting that Lingering Ritual becomes the Dark Deal for Magicka Templar,. as you cna move full speed while channeling it, and it heals for more then Breath of Life does for a cheaper cost...i think you will see many Templars catch on quick and run around rocks like Stam Sorcs casting Lingiering Ritual(they renamed it i think) like Stam Sorcs Dark Deal.

if your using a Fire Staff thats an 8% damage increase. Templars that use Destro Staff have a lot to look forward too in the next update for PVP, and Jab using Templars wil really be the only dual wield Magic Specs due to Jabs +Toppling Charge, and Dark Flare working so well on a dual wield setup, there is so much synergy between Desto Staff and Dawns Wrath line, it works so well now...it works better now, and even better i Homestead then it did in 1.6 when i first put my own spin on Divien Cross Sun Priest build, he pioneered it, i just put my own flavor on it.

Sorcs have absolutely nothing to look forward to in PVP, nor did they get any buffs or changes to their class

Atronach is till the only CC Atro in the game,pets to me are useless, the Curse change really only effects PVE at 8.5 secs hardly any Sorcs will use the 2nd explosion in PVP.

28m Impale for Magblade is huge in PVP, the short range was part of why it wasn't used, it will be now.

Look at Dragonknights, Flame Damage Ferocious Leap, a solid Coagulating Blood Heal, buff to Flame Whip damage, DK got a lot of good solid changes,

Sorc was left out in the cold this patch unless you like pets.

AzuraKin

funny how people think heavy armor is a sustain build.

if you are using heavy attacks to keep resources up, you are not a sustain build.
if you have to use skills that restore resources to keep resources up, you are not a sustain build.
if you have to use anything that disrupts the continual stream of damage or healing skills to keep resources up, you are not a sustain build.

now reasons why heavy armor is not sustain build. 7p heavy armor only restores 1400 - 2100 depending on your armor passives every 4. this translates into 700-1050 regen. light armor/stamina grant 3% cost reduction, 4% regen boost per piece worn. assuming 3500 base cost on skills used each second, you would receive a cost reduction from armor totaling 525 reduction, which translates to 1050 equivalent reduction at 5p armor. assuming base regen of 540 you would also recieve 108 additional regen. thus you see light/medium armor intrinsically give you longer sustainment.

KramUzibra

Chilla_Deluxe wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Mazoku_ wrote: »

I would like to start by thanking you *ZOS for retaining the 3.5 s burst for the haunting curse re work.
Now, i have always played magsorc pvp with a lighting staff. It's my playstyle and have always preferred it over flame or frost. And i know many other sorcs feel the same way.
Now with these new changes to the passives (flame staff increases damage with single target abilities) isn't this forcing all of us to use flame staff for pvp?
I mean who wouldn't want to squeeze the most dps out of their curse, execute , frags, and pulse?
I think it is taking away freedom of choice when it comes to your pvp staff and i believe thats wrong. Why should everyone be forced into using a staff they might not like just so they can remain competitive?

Minalan wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

NightSquirrel wrote: »

Stam sorcs should not be able to proc implosions, that is my two-cents.

They don't necessarily have to do anything except add a skill point in their class passives. Implosion just happens while they fight. If anything reduce the dmg to be comparable to an enchant around 2 thousand. Getting hit with 10k+ is way too powerful. Personally I don't think it should exist at all but I'll take a compromise if zos is willing.

Now correct me if i am wrong but arent there a lot of passives that can result in damage?

crit boosts for assassination passives, Stealth boosts for 10%, etc.

never will understand the artifical line between damage listed on recap separately from massive boosts like crits deliver which are added-in to the base powers.

To me, its how much damage you do and when and so forth - not how the recap lists it.

Don't forget 8% max magicka for nightblades. I'd take that over a 5% execute chance passive any day.

Some people want to pretend that one hit at full health means implosion procs left and right. That's asinine. It only triggers when you're almost dead anyways.

So you believe its ok and balanced for a sorc to passively grant you a 5 to 10k+ burst damage that finishes your target for you when I need to run an execute that requires me to physically activate an ability in order to do the same thing?

... it has a 5% proc chance. Statistically it needs to hit you twenty times at extremely low health to go off. You're either bad at math, or just hopelessly blubbering at this point with the e-tears everywhere.

Yeah I kind of laugh it off when it happens to me. I shrug, say "lucky shot", then res up. Most of the time when I die to it, I would have died with or without the implosion. So All he gets is a cool disintegrate animation out of it. And I have to admit, it is cool.

I'm aware of the proc chance, I run a medium armor dk so I get bursted down within that threshold that's procs implosion very often and have been killed by extremely high proced implosions. I will say this it happens far more frequent with stam sorcs. Usually with other classes I have an opportunity to roll dodge vigor rally I cant do that when the sorcs can passively execute me. Mind you it's an execute that you can not see thus 0 counter play. Again damage like that should be applied thru player intervention not freely given.

its 6% chance when you take damage at 15% health or less. if we assume 30k health thats 4500 health - proc dead so what?

My bet is the passive pen from light armor or the various medium armor passives have contributed more to your death than this 6% last legs kill proc does - heck the minor sorcery passive likely has.

just because it appears on your recap doesn't mean its why you died... many things more likely critical to your death dont show on recaps as separate items.

matter of fact, CCs are likely responsible for far more deaths if you really get down to it than implosion procs ever have and CC dont show on recaps damage lists at all.

but if you are spending enough time at <15% health that you are this animated about a 6% chance... my bet is really implosion is way way down on the list of things you should be focusing on.

Just because the last 15% of a fall passes by more quickly than the previous parts... doesn't mean that last 155 is what killed you or is responsible for your death.

I'm ok with buffs and debuffs contributing to my death as long as what kills me is a direct response to a players command. Why argu so hard on keeping a passive that supposably doesn't matter. Why not grant sorcs increase spell pen while I'm in that threshold at least in that case your character wouldn't passively finish your target or you.

for the record, i really could care less about implosion as a sorc. i hardly ever notice it.

Replace Implosion with OVERTIME and i would do a happy dance.

OVERTIME: An active toggled power can last fully active for 3s/6s after you swap to a bar where the toggle is not slotted. if you swap back to a bar where it is slotted before the overtime period elapses the toggled power continues without fail. if you dont swap back in time, the toggle power shuts down as normal.

but let me get this straight...

• You drop to 15% health
• The sorc hits you with a light attack.
• Liquid lightning tics.
• Implosions procs you die
• You are not ok with that.

On the other hand...

• You drop to 15% health
• The sorc hits you with a light attack
• implosion procs
• Liquid lightning tics and you die
• You are ok with that.

Do i have that right?

Umm no I'm not ok with implosion ever. I'm not ok with free no skill damage ie proc sets. Essentially implosion is like vipers, it's free damage and requires no skill to achieve it just happens.

Nah its nowhere near vipers, what are the chances your enemys gonna be on 15% (most players will recover almost instantly) enough so the 6% chance procs. With that being said under 15% health on an average 25k hp target is around 4k health (estimate) which 1 execute at that hp would finish you off anyway. So why whine over a skill that will be responsible for your death 6% of the 94% of the time? If the 6% does proc.

No it's free dmg and free dmg is not ok. If it's such a low proc and doesn't matter why are you not advocating for a more useful utility change? Like increase lighting dmg, or increase spell crit something that would buff abilities that are directly active by your comman. Also a regular execute can be dodged or blocked soooo death is not guaranteed. I'm in and out of that threshold numerous times in pvp and 1v1s and iv died more times than I care for from stam sorcs and implosion. Referring to my concern of implosion as "whining" is not very constructive. I though this thread was a sorc balance discussion? Are not all concerns valid for debate? Changing the passive to a buff would ultimately buff sorcs which I would assume is a good thing right? I don't know about mag sorc but on my stam sorc implosion procs far to often and with far to much dmg and I don't feel like I dont deserved the kill.

STEVIL

Chadak wrote: »

As someone that's only been playing a few months, these changes look like 100% annoyance with no upside to me at all.

VC is pretty central to how I've been playing. I babe no idea what to echo think about replacing it with.

Why do so many sorc abilities suck? Why is there not one single decent spammable attack as a class ability?

Bah.

Not having a "class ability" to do X role but having easy access to weapon abilities that do X role is not a serious problem - especially when those weapon abilities sync up well with the class passives. The key is you wont be running a sorc with only class skills at your beck and call.

it would be far more problematic to not have X as a class skill and not to have X available with weapon skills that sync up with our class skills.

But frankly, some very effective sorc builds can be run without a "spammable" slotted - see any number of solo-dungeoning pet sorc builds where the sorc focuses the "class" on aoe, dot, debuffs, shields, heals etc with the on-proc cfrags (if that) and not on spamming force pulse.

Tonturri

If it's such a low proc and doesn't matter why are you not advocating for a more useful utility change?

I am! o/ Anyway, at a guess, I think Chila is just protesting your analysis of the skill (correct me if I'm wrong). It actually might be a -decent- passive...punishing players for remaining below 15% hp long enough for it to proc (though again, if you get that low and your opponent doesn't smash you with an execute...I dunno.) Also keep in mind that the 'far too much dmg' bit - likely a massive chunk of that damage is overkill. Not only does something have to hit you while you're below 15% hp - which is going to do some amount of damage - but THEN implosion procs. Refer to Chila's math, then apply implosion proc, then figure out how much of the implosion proc damage was wasted.

Also, concerning 'free damage'. Pretty much ALL passives are free something. Do you have anything against NB 8% magicka? They just need to put points into that in order to get 'free damage' on all of their magicka skills. Or sorc minor crit chance bonus, and so on and so forth. Implosion is NOT free - they had to get you down below 15% hp, then get it to proc, right? xD I've never been able to do that...my opponents usually die to an execute or another ability before I can get a proc. Implosion is actually quite limited, so don't you dare compare it to Viper. I don't think people would complain very much about Viper if it was a 6% proc chance on hit only when your opponent was below 15% hp.

I am, however, all for it being changed because it plain irritates me. See my previous post. Do you have any suggestions on how to change it that aren't a boring +% damage or stat type?