Miat's PVP alerts.

starkerealm

leepalmer95 wrote: »

List of stealthed players...

Isn't this just cheating?

List of stealthed players who have been out of stealth in your immediate vicinity. Basically, it's tracking players who have been seen, not ones who are completely undetected.

Cheating? In theory, no. It's information that you had, or someone in your area could have relayed to. In practical terms, it's a huge advantage when dealing with opponents trying to slip back into stealth.

starkerealm

Mountain33r wrote: »

Also if your volume is up, you can actually hear people cast abilities while stealth unless I am getting some kind of magic, which was before using this addon.

@Mountain33r as far as I know, that's intentional behavior. Even if it's not, it has been this way since at least 1.3, probably launch.

LegacyDM

Dorrino wrote: »

Addon author chiming in:)


Q: Why did you released it then?

A: The addon is supposed to make the playfield between stealthers and non-stealthers more even. Not the playfield between me and everybody else:) I truly want everybody to use it and enjoy its perks.

Basically i'd be happy if ZOS added some (all) of its features to the base ui (or allowed it to be). Can we do it, dear ZOS?:)

I agree that stealth detection feature will be over the top IF and ONLY IF ZOS fixes stealth ganks and stealth in general. In my personal opinion attacking from stealth is huge advantage in itself. Now add oneshots to the picture and stealths becomes out of control. And this is what we have now in pvp. This is my opinion. I'm aware there can be other opinions. This is fine.

Congratulations guy. You just got yourself and every other NB nerfed. In your mind, you created a solution, but it was a solution for the wrong problem and the consequences will be far reaching. The issue is not stealth ganking. The issue is proc meta. Without proc meta, stealth ganking is not a huge advantage. They already nerfed the damage output back in 1.4/1.5 or so. In addition, there are over a dozen ways to counter stealth. Potatoes are too ignorant to use them, but skilled players know exactly how to counter. Sword and board on a DK with 30k HP and health regen goes a long way. Running 2-3 shields on a sorc does wonders. Don't even get me started on the insane instant healing of the templar meta with malubeth or the 77k blazing shield templar. What everyone sees with so called highlight reels on the forums are expert level players ganking from stealth. What you don't see is all their failed attempts. Or the average person is a potatoe and doesn't know how to L2P yet. 9 times out of 10 when I get attacked from stealth, the NB dies. Because they have no survive-ability and are made of glass. I mark, and then chase them down until they die.

What happens when ZOS nerfs the proc meta next update and skilled players are still running the anti-gank meta I mentioned above? Your going to be a stam NB with no burst, and thanks to your add-on, less stealth advantage.

Didn't you even consider that if people know others are in the area they can just pop a detect invis/stealth pot? Or Sorcs can just bolt around or use hurricane until they find their targets? An orc sorc using hurricane with speed pots moves a lot faster than a NB in stealth. They can cover smaller more confined areas faster. Now there is an incentive to go on the hunt because I have an addon that tells me people are in the area. Whereas before, chasing ghosts was not worth it. Didn't you consider that if people know gankers are in the area they will keep themselves buffed and not let their guard down? Why should anyone play a NB now. What happened to the element of surprise? You basically wrote an addon that removes the element of surprise.

Because you have taken matters into your own hands to develop a technical solution that alters the game state, ZOS has to response. Either they nerf NBs or they nerf your addon. They will most likely nerf NBs resulting in your addon as an advantage to non-NBs. You yourself said, you wouldn't have written it if they fixed stealth ganking. You yourself said its over the top if they fix stealth. Now what happens when they do by removing the proc meta? Or they nerf stealth attacks even more. Are you going to stop supporting your addon? Someone else will continue to make it.

Thanks.

lygerseye

Crown wrote: »

Valwe wrote: »

You make a fair point, @Crown. However, regardless of whether players who are using add-ons to gain an advantage are not to blame, or less to blame, this add-on is patently unfair and will significantly diminish the effectiveness of stealth. It really is cheating, and so it is on ZOS to put a stop to it.

Here's another analogy (I like analogies): You need to sort jellybeans such that there are 200 in each bag. Everyone around you is counting them 1 by 1, and it takes them 2 minutes to fill a bag. Everyone needs to complete 100 bags, thus a shift is 200 minutes (3 hours and 20 minutes). You figure out that all jellybeans are each 2 grams in weight, so use a scale to measure out 400 grams and bag them all at once. You complete your 200 bags in about 20 minutes, and have 3 hours free. If you choose not to share the scale method with the other jellybean baggers, and use those 3 hours to relax, play video games, or chat with friends then are you doing anything wrong? If you share the method of using a scale with the rest of the jellybean baggers, and everyone finishes early, are you doing anything wrong?

I like analogies too, and I think yours is missing a couple of things...

It turns out the company is called "ZOS Hand Counted Jelly Beans" and the scale you are using is borrowed from the Quality Control Department. The scale is to be used to ensure that each individual jelly bean is exactly the right size; not too big, not too small. And while using the scale is allowed, it's not being used for its intended purpose. Even though it is useful and helpful to the workers, it goes against the intentions of the company. That is, it goes against the jelly beans being hand-counted.

Right or wrong, that's what the company sells: hand counted jelly beans. Now, if ZOS decides to allow it, and choose to drop the "hand counted" from their name, that's fine. Those hand counted jelly bean lovers will just have to find another source for the product.

LadyNalcarya

Nifty2g wrote: »

How come we can have this addon but not group damage

#bringbackgroupdamage

This. >.<

kadar

Many of this addon's features seem great, and I will probably end up using it myself. However, the features designed to counter stealth play need to go.

These counter stealth features do not "balance" anything. They take the intended advantage of being in stealth, remove it entirely, and give the advantage to the other player. For example, if I know that there is a stealthed player near me, can mouse over for the players name, AND am given and instant alert when said player starts his attack, I am untouchable. There is nothing the ganker can do to kill me, no matter how perfect his timing, or how much damage he has. The ganker is forced to leave and find a new target. This addon has removed counter play and is claiming to do the opposite. The fact is, there is already counter play to stealth attacks in game.

The other aspect of this I'm seeing, is that it's hardcore friendly. What I mean is that it can make players who are already difficult to kill (because of individual skill or meta builds) nigh impossible to take down. The folks who will use this already know how to survive and take down a ganker, and running the addon will remove the small chance the ganker has in the first place.

You're taking an entire play style and trying to force it into a more ineffective state.

Rohamad_Ali

I've already shared my opinion so I won't go back into that but I am surprised this sort of add on is new information to some . I'm curious what a few people's opinions are on this .

@HoloYoitsu
@Sypher
@FENGRUSH
@frozywozy
@Psilent
@Ishammael

What do you guys think of this add on in relation to "fair play" and what limits it should or should not have ?

Valen_Byte

Im not going to get into argueing specific points but....I saw this thread this morning so I downloaded the addon and gave it a go in BWB.

We had the DC gates open and going for scroll. So I popped up to warden. I stealthed my way to the gate. That's when I realized the gates where unmanned because otherwise my new addon would have told me. I was then able to proceed without caution past the gates knowing I was not in danger.

That right there was the only time in a few hours that I felt like I was cheating using this addon. In the end I think there are things about it that should not be allowed and things about it that are no big deal.

Zo$ should take a look at it and make the call, but definitely needs looked at.

Riejael

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Zo$ should take a look at it and make the call, but definitely needs looked at.

Well they are looking into it. What they have to do internally is decide what API calls to squelch and which ones they want to keep. The addon provides some interesting non-game breaking features, so I'm sure they want to keep those. I mean after all they gave us LUA environments to use for our benefit.

But at the same time they need to look deeply and monitor how it affects certain playstyles and builds. Obviously we know it does. But they as devs have to do so with an Unbiased eye and opinion and decide if the addon does ANYTHING to damage what they believe is a valid way to play the game.

If they deem it so, they will fix parts of the API that will render those parts of the addon inert.

I'm going to say this right now. Their decisions is going to upset someone. It has to. They have to be unbiased here. If they decide to leave it more in line to keeping the API calls as are, stealth oriented players will be upset. If not, then non-stealthed players will be instead.

There's NO way for ZOS to handle this without upsetting someone. They can't. They can upset one side, or the other.. or even both simultaneously. But at the end of the day it is THEIR game and they need to make a decision based on how they feel it should be played.

My advice to everyone here is don't go apespit over their decision when they finally come to one. Deal with it, adapt and move on. Be happy that they responded so quickly and do have concerns to how this changes the scope of ESO. I'm impressed that they took the time to analyze this and give a response that they ARE looking into it.

Waseem

block this add on
this is a clear advantage for players who use this add on compared to those who dont
also, add on show name of player who applied mark? is that a joke?

Rohamad_Ali

Runs wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I've already shared my opinion so I won't go back into that but I am surprised this sort of add on is new information to some . I'm curious what a few people's opinions are on this .

@HoloYoitsu
@Sypher
@FENGRUSH
@frozywozy
@Psilent
@Ishammael

What do you guys think of this add on in relation to "fair play" and what limits it should or should not have ?

Is macro use considered fair play?

Cause one of those guys admitted to using them during a live stream before he found out he was banned for account sharing...

There are a lot of people using macro hot keys and razor naga mouses , not me but a lot . I do not think it's fair play unless ZOS says it's ok . They say it's not but cannot detect it's use or punish anyone that gets off attacks faster then normal . When it comes to macros I think it's not fair play but since it's not detectable ZOS should either allow it and support it like animation canceling or remove animation canceling so it does not give an unfair advantage against those that play by the rules . ZOS will do neither and that is why macros frustrate those of us that play by the TOS .

All of that is off topic of course and has been argued to oblivion already .

starkerealm

Waseem wrote: »

block this add on
this is a clear advantage for players who use this add on compared to those who dont
also, add on show name of player who applied mark? is that a joke?

Well, Mark is probably the best joke in Cyrodiil, has been since launch. You mark someone from near max range, and watch them freak out waiting for you to attack.

It is kinda important to remember that the addon builds a local database. Until that's built, it has no idea WHO just used an ability. It can give you a character name, but that's almost never going to be useful information. "Steve from Accounting has just cast Reaper's Mark on you." "Okay... so, who the snot is Steve?"

Edziu

starkerealm wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

block this add on
this is a clear advantage for players who use this add on compared to those who dont
also, add on show name of player who applied mark? is that a joke?

Well, Mark is probably the best joke in Cyrodiil, has been since launch. You mark someone from near max range, and watch them freak out waiting for you to attack.

It is kinda important to remember that the addon builds a local database. Until that's built, it has no idea WHO just used an ability. It can give you a character name, but that's almost never going to be useful information. "Steve from Accounting has just cast Reaper's Mark on you." "Okay... so, who the snot is Steve?"

long ago this skill was useful while was reducing 75% of all armor your opponed and caster also, it was perfect for assasin, now its useless, its only next counter against NB hide, cloak and thats all.

now it will be nice to cast and reduce 75% armor a tankly opponen, you ofc will have also less armor but what it will change if at all you are glass cannon? at all rest enemys will easier kill you if they catch you if you dont kill your target.

I missing about this old reapers mark, nerfed from 1 min duration to 30 seconds, major debufss which dont stack with surpise attack/taunt from s&b so its just useless on pve, pvp also because of other armor debuffs.

only usable thing what it is doing it just prevent other nb go into hide, thats all, you can take away this *** worth debuffs from this skill because its useless

(sorry for offtopic but this skill )

starkerealm

Edziu wrote: »

(sorry for offtopic but this skill )

I know man. I'm right there with you.

Duukar

Mountain33r wrote: »

So I checked it out, played with this addon last night. Everyone spewing doom and gloom is just ignorant. Test if for yourself, there is nothing game breaking here. Actually @mtwiggz is right the only thing really helpful is the player counts.

Showing names of stealth players on your screen; it does show if someone has stealth near you recently in which you may not have seen because you were focused on something else?. Not the location of them. Also if your volume is up, you can actually hear people cast abilities while stealth unless I am getting some kind of magic, which was before using this addon. There were times last night, that no names were the list and I got ganked by a player in stealth near me, happen a lot actually. No indication or any sort of heads up.

It's just good information, but nothing game breaking, least from what I tested. Unless there is something I am missing (MAGIC).

So are you seriously implying that knowing the second someone begins a gank attempt on you isnt a HUGE advantage??????

You can literally set it up so it plays a unique sound when someone is attacking you from stealth!!!

Skcarkden

Crown wrote: »

Runs wrote: »

We will never know how many private addons have been doing the same, for how long they have, or how long they would have continued doing so.

That is a very interesting statement for everyone to consider.

I've worked with software development teams for any years. As far as most coders are concerned, if the API allows them to do something, then the company providing the API has authorised it. Unless there's a clear and concise statement "don't do this" in the TOS or EULA, nothing prevents them from doing with that information what they will.

There is a LOT of information available from the API, and if a coder writes an addon to present that information in such a way as to benefit himself (and his friends), then there is nothing wrong with doing so. If said coder chooses not to share his addon, then there is nothing wrong with not doing so. The onus is on the developer of the API to limit what information is available.

Think about mini map icons for a moment, or the Provision's Team Formation addon. They show the locations of your group members. What if the information and coordinates of the rest of your faction were available? How would you feel if someone running an addon could see where every player was on the map? What if the information and coordinates of the opposing factions were available? How would you feel if your opponents could see where you were at all times on the map? Is it the coder's fault for taking readily available information and using it? Or is it the developer of the API's fault for making that information available?

I would say it's the fault of both parties. Devs for not thinking about what information they are releasing, like who doesn't question the irony in giving stealth information? The addon maker and all the users for using it when it should be plain as day that it's a stupidly unfair advantage.

maxjapank

The_Outsider wrote: »

Many of this addon's features seem great, and I will probably end up using it myself. However, the features designed to counter stealth play need to go.

These counter stealth features do not "balance" anything. They take the intended advantage of being in stealth, remove it entirely, and give the advantage to the other player. For example, if I know that there is a stealthed player near me, can mouse over for the players name, AND am given and instant alert when said player starts his attack, I am untouchable. There is nothing the ganker can do to kill me, no matter how perfect his timing, or how much damage he has. The ganker is forced to leave and find a new target. This addon has removed counter play and is claiming to do the opposite. The fact is, there is already counter play to stealth attacks in game.

The other aspect of this I'm seeing, is that it's hardcore friendly. What I mean is that it can make players who are already difficult to kill (because of individual skill or meta builds) nigh impossible to take down. The folks who will use this already know how to survive and take down a ganker, and running the addon will remove the small chance the ganker has in the first place.

You're taking an entire play style and trying to force it into a more ineffective state.

I could live without the stealth features. But I gotta say that I partly agree with the Channeled attacks from stealth argument. Channeled attacks are generally the more powerful, and I would prefer that stealth breaks the moment someone begins to use a skill. I think that we have become used to people in stealth using wind-up / channeled attacks, so the notion that it shouldn't be or have been that way seems foreign to us.

But I do thank Miat for sharing this with everyone. It's likely that this information has been out there. And at least, this levels the playing field. Now it is up to ZOS to do something about it.

geonsocal

wow, this certainly seems like a frankenstein moment...

I commend the creativity and ingenuity behind this... certainly can't begrudge the knowledge or skill behind its creation...

sometimes though - it's better to do what feels right than to do what feels good (i'm quite sure the completion of this "project" paid off quite well for its creator)...

this seems a lot like cheating...

this is definitely a "git gud" moment, and, i don't mean get better with your playstyle...like literally get better with your behavior and decision making...

Ackwalan

This add-on will probably turn into an animation canceling scenario. It will be too difficult to fix, so ZOS will just turn a blind eye to it.

AzraelKrieg

Ackwalan wrote: »

This add-on will probably turn into an animation canceling scenario. It will be too difficult to fix, so ZOS will just turn a blind eye to it.

Well considering ZOS have already acknowledged it in this post and have been testing it to evaluate a course of action, turning a blind eye to it is unlikely

geonsocal

hey, I got a great idea for a new add-on - maybe miat can figure out a way to just press one key and kill all the enemies on the map...

that sounds like fun, huh?

God_flakes

geonsocal wrote: »

hey, I got a great idea for a new add-on - maybe miat can figure out a way to just press one key and kill all the enemies on the map...

that sounds like fun, huh?

Sounds like a god complex, hmm?

God_flakes

Duukar wrote: »

Mountain33r wrote: »

So I checked it out, played with this addon last night. Everyone spewing doom and gloom is just ignorant. Test if for yourself, there is nothing game breaking here. Actually @mtwiggz is right the only thing really helpful is the player counts.

Showing names of stealth players on your screen; it does show if someone has stealth near you recently in which you may not have seen because you were focused on something else?. Not the location of them. Also if your volume is up, you can actually hear people cast abilities while stealth unless I am getting some kind of magic, which was before using this addon. There were times last night, that no names were the list and I got ganked by a player in stealth near me, happen a lot actually. No indication or any sort of heads up.

It's just good information, but nothing game breaking, least from what I tested. Unless there is something I am missing (MAGIC).

So are you seriously implying that knowing the second someone begins a gank attempt on you isnt a HUGE advantage??????

You can literally set it up so it plays a unique sound when someone is attacking you from stealth!!!

I am forced to play Devil's advocate. How much of an unfair advantage do these one button wonder stealth gankers have when their target doesn't even have one second to form a defense?

Ackwalan

AzraelKrieg wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

This add-on will probably turn into an animation canceling scenario. It will be too difficult to fix, so ZOS will just turn a blind eye to it.

Well considering ZOS have already acknowledged it in this post and have been testing it to evaluate a course of action, turning a blind eye to it is unlikely

Years ago, ZOS said they were working on animation canceling. Now they never mention it in any manner.

Edziu

God_flakes wrote: »

Duukar wrote: »

Mountain33r wrote: »

So I checked it out, played with this addon last night. Everyone spewing doom and gloom is just ignorant. Test if for yourself, there is nothing game breaking here. Actually @mtwiggz is right the only thing really helpful is the player counts.

Showing names of stealth players on your screen; it does show if someone has stealth near you recently in which you may not have seen because you were focused on something else?. Not the location of them. Also if your volume is up, you can actually hear people cast abilities while stealth unless I am getting some kind of magic, which was before using this addon. There were times last night, that no names were the list and I got ganked by a player in stealth near me, happen a lot actually. No indication or any sort of heads up.

It's just good information, but nothing game breaking, least from what I tested. Unless there is something I am missing (MAGIC).

So are you seriously implying that knowing the second someone begins a gank attempt on you isnt a HUGE advantage??????

You can literally set it up so it plays a unique sound when someone is attacking you from stealth!!!

I am forced to play Devil's advocate. How much of an unfair advantage do these one button wonder stealth gankers have when their target doesn't even have one second to form a defense?

how these gangers can fight in open fight agains heavy armored dk without any defense, any additional armor etc? just full glass cannon which is easy to rekt by this heavy armored build

ganger = glass cannon =/= free ap in open fight against most players on cyrodil because most is on build with much more defensive for open fight

geonsocal

God_flakes wrote: »

geonsocal wrote: »

hey, I got a great idea for a new add-on - maybe miat can figure out a way to just press one key and kill all the enemies on the map...

that sounds like fun, huh?

Sounds like a god complex, hmm?

I don't know man, I guess I just don't really get it...it's just a game - how much does someone really need to rig the game in their favor to feel like they're having fun...

I don't know "miat" so I can't really say - but, this just seems like someone whom is really smart and wanted to solve a problem (stealth and other player threats) and wanted to engineer a solution...

then, pride kicks in and they want to share it...no doubt they probably had a lot more fun writing that program then they'll ever have playing the game...

Ishammael

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I've already shared my opinion so I won't go back into that but I am surprised this sort of add on is new information to some . I'm curious what a few people's opinions are on this .

@HoloYoitsu
@Sypher
@FENGRUSH
@frozywozy
@Psilent
@Ishammael

What do you guys think of this add on in relation to "fair play" and what limits it should or should not have ?

ISHAMMAEL is come!

Oh... This issue.

I need to install the add-on and see. I guess I kinda knew this was coming by word of mouth. I also detest the "ganking" play style in ESO. It is completely unbalanced to allow one shots from stealth. Stealth is its own advantage. This seems to be the core issue.

Rex-Umbra

So glad i play on console, add ons make the game pointless.

Rohamad_Ali

Ishammael wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I've already shared my opinion so I won't go back into that but I am surprised this sort of add on is new information to some . I'm curious what a few people's opinions are on this .

@HoloYoitsu
@Sypher
@FENGRUSH
@frozywozy
@Psilent
@Ishammael

What do you guys think of this add on in relation to "fair play" and what limits it should or should not have ?

ISHAMMAEL is come!

Oh... This issue.

I need to install the add-on and see. I guess I kinda knew this was coming by word of mouth. I also detest the "ganking" play style in ESO. It is completely unbalanced to allow one shots from stealth. Stealth is its own advantage. This seems to be the core issue.

Yes I agree but I'm wondering what you think on the mechanic of this addon taking away the good features of stealth . For instance , people watching back keeps no longer needing to patrol , just sit and watch the notification for a small team that arrives to backcap .

Vaoh

What an absolutely stupid addition to the game. Everyone will use it.

What I see here are a small minority of idiots being able to legitimately ruin the experience for everyone else. If you aren't using it, you are truly at a disadvantage,

Who would have thought that PvP would be better on console now than on PC? And for all reasons, this is due to the lack of add-ons!

Smh...