Miat's PVP alerts.

mercster

All I wanted was a plugin that would up the idle time log out a few minutes...?

Ackwalan

Ackwalan wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon was brought to our attention earlier in the week, and we’ve been running some internal tests on it to gauge functionality and impact. We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result. Here’s an explanation of how it works, and what it does and doesn’t do:

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon is built upon actions done by players that the combat log records. This includes sprinting, casting an ability, weapon swapping, drinking a potion, stealthing, etc. If a player executes any of those actions, basic messages are sent to the server and clients. This mod hooks into those notifications and filters them to give information about who is in the area. That info is then turned into either a KOS list determined by the player, a stealthier list, or simply an incremental value of players in the area (all are a rough estimation.)

The KOS list, specifically, is simply another layer on top of the above options, where the addon looks for specific players that you can choose to add to a list. When those players perform an action within your existing area of detection, you will be notified that they are in the area. You are not provided info on exactly where they are. Here are a few specific examples:

• If someone is in your existing area of detection and they fully enter stealth, the addon will notify you of the name of the player character that successfully went fully “hidden.”
• If someone is already stealthed and you’re traveling near then, or enter the area they were initially already stealthed in, you will not be notified of that player.
• If someone uses a Nightblade ability that results in them vanishing, they will not trigger the addon’s alert unless they enter the real “hidden” state (i.e. the eye on the HUD is closed).

Lastly this addon adds a kill spam list which shows you when someone has died in your existing area of detection, and to what ability. When you first get these messages, it simply says “Someone has died to Dark Flare.” When you start to get more information on the players around you, it adds that player name to the Saved Variables file for PVPAlerts.lua, then starts to add that information into your UI while playing.

Note that in all the above examples, you are not notified of exactly where the player is. This addon does not add a little blip to your map or compass, and does not give you an overlay that points out specifically where players are. This addon is not radar, a Doppler, or any other means of giving away another player’s exact position.

We want to thank everyone for sharing your concerns with us about this addon.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

It's been a few weeks now, can we get an official response on whether an add-on that is able to detect the actions people in stealth take, as well as who they are is legitimate. People are already pointing to your comment about "not taking action at this time" as a go ahead to make more add-ons that can do similar things, if not more. Thanks.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

So that's a no for getting an official response. We can just add this to the list of innovative play style that can be exploited.

Hurika

An answer either way would be nice. Not even asking for it to be removed or blessed - just an official opinion. However this won't increase crown sales so they don't seem to be in any rush to answer (if ever).

Kodrac

You got your answer last month. It just wasn't the one you were looking for so you're asking again in hopes it'll be the one you want this time. Sorry, but that's not how you change agendas.

Hurika

Kodrac wrote: »

You got your answer last month. It just wasn't the one you were looking for so you're asking again in hopes it'll be the one you want this time. Sorry, but that's not how you change agendas.

No we actually didn't if you go read what they posted:

"We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result. "

So what was the result of their time evaluating? Unless you're seeing some response where they said what the result was either way. I'm not pushing for a specific answer just any answer. "We evaluated and our decision is allow/disable...."

"I'll give it some thought" isn't really answer. If it were it would make college exams pretty easy - just put that for every question....

Berenhir

Hurika wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

You got your answer last month. It just wasn't the one you were looking for so you're asking again in hopes it'll be the one you want this time. Sorry, but that's not how you change agendas.

No we actually didn't if you go read what they posted:

"We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result. "

So what was the result of their time evaluating? Unless you're seeing some response where they said what the result was either way. I'm not pushing for a specific answer just any answer.

"I'll give it some thought" isn't really answer. If it were it would make college exams pretty easy - just put that for every question....

Well, everybody knows that "We are evaluating and may do this or that" is ZOSpeak for "We queued your complaints for trashcan treatment".

Duukar

They did answer. It's buried in here somewhere.

They are fine with it...... No violation.. Perfectly legit.

So I DLed it and I'm running it now.

It's pure BS.. Absolutely ruins ganks over and over when attacking from stealth with its unique alert sound when people are doing an attack from stealth on you.. Cloak and Boom recover and return.

I had 2 gankers open up on me the other day on my mNB.. I was able to counter and wreck them both.. Not low CP players and I'm wearing 5 light..... Only due to this addon was their gank a failure into a counter.

Even when someone is casting a spell on you like a casted frags or a snipe or a heavy attack. Another unique auditory alert dodge roll or cloak or shields or preemptive heals. Problem solved.

It takes a lot of the fun and immersion out of the game.

Almost 50% of players are running this now. You can easily tell because of the ESP people are displaying.

GG ZoS and GG M**t...

BTW I got a killing blow on M**t the other day. He dodged my opener then got run down by 3 of us.. Some things can't be changed with marginal cheating.

Kodrac

Ah, you're in college. When you go out in the real world you'll discover those are the kinds of answers you get. Not at this time is the politically correct way of saying no. It's a skill developed after stepping on toes and pissing the wrong people off to say what you want to say in a less definite way just to avoid the politics of the real answer. You learn to see through it after a while.

Hurika

Kodrac wrote: »

Ah, you're in college. When you go out in the real world you'll discover those are the kinds of answers you get. Not at this time is the politically correct way of saying no. It's a skill developed after stepping on toes and pissing the wrong people off to say what you want to say in a less definite way just to avoid the politics of the real answer. You learn to see through it after a while.

I've been out of college almost 20 years - it was just an analogy - don't assume. I run a team that supports software that's critical (life/death). That's not a valid answer where I work but our standards are different since it's "real world" and not a game. Must be expecting too much from them I guess.

They are going to *** off people no matter what they say and based on patch feedback on PTS I really doubt they are all that concerned with pissing people off in general.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

Well, that may explain why when I'm stealthed the enemy starts to AOE the area looking for me. This needs to be banned.

hobicabobjob

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon was brought to our attention earlier in the week, and we’ve been running some internal tests on it to gauge functionality and impact. We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result.

PTS has no changes to the API related to this addon. Are they still being evaluated?

DHale

Malamar1229 wrote: »

i was stealthed last night watching the DC zerg on TF go at it with some reds. I am putting my cursor over people just checking out who is there. Two templars suddenly start tossing shards all around and in my area. I move.

I start following them and notice everytime i put my cursor on this fairly well known templar, he turns around like he knows someone is there, tossing random shards around the area.

If anyone thinks this is OK, you're nuts

So he didn't know you where you were just that you were in the area and he did not see you or kill you. Ha ha good story about random stuff as opposed to me throwing blazing spears randomly. Which I do, I have even hit people, so maybe blazing spear... should.... be.... nerfed. dddddeeeeerrrrrppppp.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

It kinda makes you wonder what add-on's are being used by these authors and their friends that the public don't know about.

Lylith

DHale wrote: »

Malamar1229 wrote: »

i was stealthed last night watching the DC zerg on TF go at it with some reds. I am putting my cursor over people just checking out who is there. Two templars suddenly start tossing shards all around and in my area. I move.

I start following them and notice everytime i put my cursor on this fairly well known templar, he turns around like he knows someone is there, tossing random shards around the area.

If anyone thinks this is OK, you're nuts

So he didn't know you where you were just that you were in the area and he did not see you or kill you. Ha ha good story about random stuff as opposed to me throwing blazing spears randomly. Which I do, I have even hit people, so maybe blazing spear... should.... be.... nerfed. dddddeeeeerrrrrppppp.

again?

seems so.

fwiw, neither nerf was necessary.

that seems to be a specialty at zos, fixing what isn't broken.

Arthg

Gankee speaking here - NOT ganker.

ZOS, ban this addon already.

Stealth - REAL, absolute - stealth is a fundamental mechanic of the game.

How can you see, ZOS, that the addon completely ruins an entire (albeit dirty) playstyle, that it ruins surprise??

Remove the info from the API.

Finally: shame on those players who use it - you're a disgrace.

Rohamad_Ali

You guys not enjoying the faction zergs this addon created ? No one wants to stealth back cap so we all turtling now . The lag is a feature again .

Riejael

hobicabobjob wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon was brought to our attention earlier in the week, and we’ve been running some internal tests on it to gauge functionality and impact. We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result.

PTS has no changes to the API related to this addon. Are they still being evaluated?

The PTS patch notes reflect their decision.

They stated no action would be taken against users of the addon. They stated that they may make changes to the API. The PTS do not reflect changes, therefor since its easy to switch on/off lua API hooks, its safe to say the decision was made to leave it be.

Now the players need to make a decision. Are they fine enough with the decision to stay and play. Or is it enough to push them out of PVP into PVE, or simply out of ESO entirely?

That's the question now.

kaiage

I don't even spend a lot of time in Cyrodiil, this mod is horsesh*t.

Hurika

Riejael wrote: »

hobicabobjob wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Miat’s PVP Alerts addon was brought to our attention earlier in the week, and we’ve been running some internal tests on it to gauge functionality and impact. We are still evaluating this addon, and may make changes to the game’s API as a result.

PTS has no changes to the API related to this addon. Are they still being evaluated?

The PTS patch notes reflect their decision.

They stated no action would be taken against users of the addon. They stated that they may make changes to the API. The PTS do not reflect changes, therefor since its easy to switch on/off lua API hooks, its safe to say the decision was made to leave it be.

Now the players need to make a decision. Are they fine enough with the decision to stay and play. Or is it enough to push them out of PVP into PVE, or simply out of ESO entirely?

That's the question now.

It doesn't mean anything. How many times do they change patch notes, completely forget to mention some change or maybe they haven't figured out how to do it yet without breaking massive amounts of other addons (my guess). You can infer whatever you want from nothing being said but that doesn't mean that's their stance.

Riejael

Hurika wrote: »

It doesn't mean anything. How many times do they change patch notes, completely forget to mention some change or maybe they haven't figured out how to do it yet without breaking massive amounts of other addons (my guess). You can infer whatever you want from nothing being said but that doesn't mean that's their stance.

Oh but it does. Look at it from a developer point of view. Shutting off an API switch is easy. Its literally a small edit. I'd wager it doesn't even take a patch, could be done during a maintenance cycle. The repercussions can be... interesting. It can break PVE addons.

How many PVE players use addons compared to how many PVP players there are? Yeah I don' have to explain the reason for that question.

With that said. Its low priority. What has higher priority? The homestead addition in February.

New content, new store items, new crafting system, all kinds of goodies. You think they've got time to scrum on a set of addon API's to throw a bone at the smallest demographic of players? Not till homestead's out. Not till the bugs are worked out. You've got to deal with Miat's addon until March.

And that's when and IF they decide to work on the precise 'fix' to disable a portion of it. And and make no mistake.. it will only fix a portion of the addon. But that will still take time. Looking at April for this.

Assuming they don't 'forget' about it by then. Come on now.. be honest, you know that's a very good possibility. I've had almost a year break from the game and been playing again for the last month and a half... and even -I- know that PVP changes come sparingly.

Hurika

Riejael wrote: »

Hurika wrote: »

It doesn't mean anything. How many times do they change patch notes, completely forget to mention some change or maybe they haven't figured out how to do it yet without breaking massive amounts of other addons (my guess). You can infer whatever you want from nothing being said but that doesn't mean that's their stance.

Oh but it does. Look at it from a developer point of view. Shutting off an API switch is easy. Its literally a small edit. I'd wager it doesn't even take a patch, could be done during a maintenance cycle. The repercussions can be... interesting. It can break PVE addons.

How many PVE players use addons compared to how many PVP players there are? Yeah I don' have to explain the reason for that question.

With that said. Its low priority. What has higher priority? The homestead addition in February.

New content, new store items, new crafting system, all kinds of goodies. You think they've got time to scrum on a set of addon API's to throw a bone at the smallest demographic of players? Not till homestead's out. Not till the bugs are worked out. You've got to deal with Miat's addon until March.

And that's when and IF they decide to work on the precise 'fix' to disable a portion of it. And and make no mistake.. it will only fix a portion of the addon. But that will still take time. Looking at April for this.

Assuming they don't 'forget' about it by then. Come on now.. be honest, you know that's a very good possibility. I've had almost a year break from the game and been playing again for the last month and a half... and even -I- know that PVP changes come sparingly.

In your previous response you state they haven't explicitly addressed it in the latest patch and that constitutes their answer. This is a logical fallacy and is what is called an "Argument from Ignorance". (No I am NOT calling you ignorant - that's the name of the definition): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proved false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that: there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,

true
false
unknown between true or false
being unknowable (among the first three).[1]
In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof.

You also make the assumption of impact and effort without know their code and how information is used by code we are not privy to.

Then you go on to say we're dealing with it till March which makes no sense if you said previously they've already made their official position by not fixing in U13. So what you said is they aren't fixing because it's not in U13 but we have to wait for them to fix it in March. Are they or aren't they?

You're making way too many assumptions. I'm not asking or speculating about impact to pve, timeframe, difficulty to implement, etc. I'm asking "Will it be made not possible at some point or are there no plans to address the API regarding this". Not asking when... how... I don't care if they say no or if they say we'll fix it in 6 months. I'm only asking for an answer (and I think a lot of others are also).

There's not much point in responding to this anymore since the Devs don't seem to be interested in answering and people seem to want to speculate, draw conclusions and make assumptions and more time is spent correcting that than discussing anything of value.

NightSquirrel

The add-on is a game breaker. Add-ons should affect the user's experience, not other players experience. Unless this add-on is implemented as a standard function of the game for every player and ZOS decides to change the entire play system of pvp it should be banned.

Until ZOS decides they want to completely nerf stealth and heavy style attacks this add-on is just a complete joke.

As far as I am concerned this add-on is cheating but I'm sure there are trolls and people who are bitter about being sniped who will disagree with me. (PS I do not even play as a NB)

Saturn

Honestly this addon is cheating. I don't know how many times I've had people dodge or block my stealth attacks, it's more than enough to be a coincidence, and we all know it's because of this addon telling you when someone is shooting at you. It gives people an unfair advantage, and completely breaks the stealth mechanic of PvP. Just because people don't like gankers, or people that use stealth a lot, it should not warrant an addon that completely breaks it.

Can we please just ban this stupid addon? Even if I didn't play a build that suffers under addon, I'd still consider it cheating. Also f*** all the people using this addon to "provide feedback", you're just as bad as everyone else using this addon if you do that.

Lastly, I can't believe the API for this is even available, that is seriously mindboggling. I wouldn't mind it if the API was just alliance specific, but that it applies to everyone and therefore makes an addon like this possible is lunacy, and I hope ZOS fixes this with the next update. Or hopefully even sooner. The more you allow exploits like this in the game, the worse the game will get.

OutLaw_Nynx

I'm just amazed you guys are complaining still.

This add on was ok'd by zos

Tommy_The_Gun

That is why add-ons should be automaticity disabled when entering PvP. Some people out there might consider it cheating...
But hey.. I am just saying...

btw. What is the official ZOS statement about mods in PvP ?

kyle.wilson

This add-on doesn't make players gank proof. It does quite the opposite, players become to relaxed.
You just have to initiate combat cold with no buffs or weapon swaps.

For all we now people have been exploiting this api issue since launch, just we didn't know.
But, I really hope that ZOS refusal to contribute to this post anymore isn't indication that they don't care. The only way to kill this BS is to change what can be affected in the API. Actions committed in stealth should not be telegraphed in the api system.

But ganking is about the only fun in pvp with the current meta. Massive zerg fests and ball groups are as fun as watching paint dry. Its a rinse and repeat affair. This requires little skill beyond generating ult and walking inside a destro ult.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_BrianWheeler, @ZOS_RichLambert

What I have noticed though is that player names I recognize supporting this addon run in ball groups and zergs. And most against it, run in small groups or solo.

willlienellson

Once upon a time there were two car companies, Subaru and Fiat, that were known in the industry to cheat. One of the very few ways to beat them was to run over them in a Tank. So, they launched a satellite that would warn them before anyone could get near them with a Tank.
The End.

Grabmoore

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

I'm just amazed you guys are complaining still.

This add on was ok'd by zos

Wrong, see the quote a few posts above.

You will never get good when relying on add ons like this btw.

ScruffyWhiskers

I have no problem with the displaying of data about who killed who.

Let's not bicker and argue about that.

What MUST be removed is access to data about who is performing stealth related actions in the vicinity of the player using the addon. That's something that completely undermines the game mechanics and interactions of the players in the PvP environment. It's not cheat engine level but it's compromises a fundamental aspect of stealth gameplay and goes beyond just presenting some helpful game data or UI enhancement.

It should be removed immediately. My fear is that due to architecture and design realities, it's simply not that easy.

Nickernator

This addon makes stealth basically worthless, is this addon even allowed? I wanted to try it, but I don't want to cheat.