1.5k vMSA runs - Loot distribution waiting for acknowledgement

covenant_merchant

Having been on a forced break, I sadly could not QQ until now.
But now I'm back, and with a vengeance. Thank you @Alucardo for keeping my thread updated in the meantime.

So, while I couldn't post it, I have kept on running vMSA and taking into account posts from others on forums and in-game, still ignoring double-posts (PC EU). This brings the total of the loot to roughly 1.5k (1,471 to be exact, but 1.5k sounds neater).
Below are the new and updated table and pie charts, because who doesn't love pie charts.








As with my previous graphs here, seems like the trait distribution is pretty balanced. However the item distribution is not, and that reflects with the sheer amount of Bows and Restoration staves that drop.
Again, this seems to confirm what @Alanar was saying a month ago.

Alanar wrote: »
So your chances of getting a specific weapon are:

Bow - 1/6
Restoration Staff - 1/6

Dagger - 1/12
Sword - 1/12
Mace - 1/12
Axe - 1/12

Greatsword - 1/18
Battle Axe - 1/18
Maul - 1/18
Lightning Staff - 1/18
Frost Staff - 1/18
Fire Staff - 1/18

So if you're hunting a sharpened fire staff, you have a 1/18 chance of getting a fire staff at all, and a 1/8 chance of getting sharpened, for a total chance of 1/144 on each drop.

Now, since I feel like I've been silenced away for far too long and I do love writing/talking/otherwise expressing myself and letting people know my righteous wrath, several points have been raised all through the event that I'd like to adress:

1. People who write on forums are the ones being slighted by the RNJesus - While it is true that some of the posters kept on running the arena for lack of a sharpened staff/ dagger drop, many have gotten them at some point or another. Just look at the Sharpened Trait distribution. And the sheer fact that so many people feel like taking the time to go on the forums and write about it seems to indicate that there's something wrong with the drops. It's not just one guy crying about not getting a sharpened inferno after 500+ runs. It's many. And a lot of people did share their sharpened 2h/1h drops, no doubt fishing for some jealous comments. People who got their sharpened staff/dagger on their first try are the exception, not the rule. And quite a few of them posted about it too.
   
   
2. 1.5k runs isn't enough; these tables do not prove anything until ZOS publishes all the data from all the players.
   Yes, why do you think I'm doing this? I want ZOS to react, I want them to acknowledge this issue, to talk about vMSA and to publish some *** data of their own. I do not care if they deride my fancy pie charts, as long as they react in some way instead of lurking on roleplay threads. If they actually make a statement, at least we'll have something to hold them up to. For now, their deafening silence says enough, I think.
   
   
3. If you think vMSA is such a chore, stop running it.
   No. Some people might have given up on it, some very good players even, and while I'm so very tired of living so close to the sharpened staves that they become a permanent blur out of the corner of my eye, I will keep on running that stupid arena simply because of hope. There is no data from ZOS, there is no statement, and as far as the majority of players is concerned, there is no evidence that the loot is skewed. And while I have the 1.5k runs and their disheartening results, somewhere deep in my cold black heart, I hold out hope that maybe, just maybe, this run will be the right one, and the RNJesus will grant me the sharpened *** staff I have been praying for.
   Which brings me to point 4.
   
   
4. Settle for alternative gear.
   Maybe it's perfectionism, maybe it's entitlement, but I do not want to settle for anything other than the best. Especially when the so-called "best" seems so tantalizingly near, just another vMSA run away. If there were any other viable 1-piece item/bonus available for gold or AP, sure. As it is, there are only vMSA and vDSA weapons. Farm vDSA then, one might say. Well, vDSA is more time consuming and requires to have a good group ready, whereas vMSA can be done by yourself and faster. (I'm talking in general, I am well aware that you can complete vDSA in less than an hour).
   For people who enjoy PvE, sure vDSA might be an alternative. Thing is, PvP players have no equivalent for this loot. I play this game for PvP, however unbalanced, laggy and zergy it is. And Maelstrom / Dragonstar staves have no equivalent available via PvP means. Yes, you can do without them, but you will lose overall damage (unless you run Spriggan + Lich in the current meta, which isn't everyone's case). But beyond specific builds, having your choice of gear limited not by your lack of skill or dedication but by sheer dumb luck and uneven odds is flat out depressing.
   I keep mentioning destruction staves here, but for stamina builds it even worse. The Maelstrom Dagger bonus is way too good. And I do mean it. While you can wear a Moondancer or no-set staff and lose about 2k overall DPS, for stamina builds, these numbers are higher.
   
   
5. Settle for a sub-par trait (aka not sharpened).
   Here comes a problem with the overall end-game trait system. Even though ZOS has overhauled other traits with the DB patch, sharpened is just way too good to pass up. I have Precise vMSA staves. I have a lot of them, but they bring worse DPS results than a no-set sharpened staff does. And isn't it quite problematic when the supposed "end-game rare loot" is worse than just a random golden one does?
   On the PvE part of things, anything other than sharpened is crap. While there are some niche builds that can afford to run Nirn or Precise - looking at stamblades with Alkosh + Spriggan and Nirned / Precise daggers, that's all they are, niche builds suited for one player out of a raid of 12, and assuming the bosses are fully debuffed with major fracture, breach, crusher, aether etc.

Making vMSA shields just a random piece with no bonus attached to it was a terrible idea and whoever thought it up should very ashamed. You can't even get a hakeijo back from deconstructing it. *yells shame while some church bells ring in the distance*

Charged. This subject triggers me. Why on earth put Charged as a trait for items that have a 100% enchantment uptime and status effect? Just thinking about it is hilarious. Well until you get one or two dozen of them and want to throw them back at the devs who had this wonderful, nay brilliant idea.
Same goes for Powered on offensive weapons : daggers, destro staves...


ZOS has a track record for molesting hybrid builds' corpses, what with them prioritizing fixing the vigor casting animation that made your staff disappear instead of I don't know, how about any other *** more pressant issue ? But what they don't seem to get is that it doesn't work! People don't play them!
Or rather don't play them effectively. I have some footage of a hybrid sorc I made, where I reverse sliced inside my destro ulti, but never for the love of Talos have I thought about using vigor on a staff. (And that build worked simply because destro ulti is kind of broken atm; it doesn't make hybrids attractive or viable).
Nobody needs your charged and powered vMSA destro staves and daggers, they're rotten. Just like your thinking process when you've decided to implement them into the end-game loot tables.

Reprising what I said inb4 my forced vacation, we do not have Arcane rings of Vicious Ophidian, or Healthy Aether. You have taken the server down once to remove Restoration Staves of the Red Mountain out of all things, and supposedly instaured a smart loot system. Well, where is this smart loot system when you need it ? How are Charged vMSA daggers and Powered destruction staves smart? How are Ice staves of the Burning Spellweaver smart? Or Restoration Staves of Alkosh? How did these things, which are just as demanded as Red Mountain, if not more, bypass your smart loot system? How did you in good conscience leave them in the game?


You know, back when I was in high school and had Philosophy classes, sometimes due to too much other work, procrastination, family matters or other excuses and lack of time, I submitted half-assed essays. And calling them essays doesn't quite fit. They were more like a random collection of botched paragraphs without proof-reading or consistency which I pretended were relevant to the essay topic. And even as I submitted them, I felt ashamed. I felt very ashamed for wasting the teacher's time with these pages of crap, for his surely degrading opinion of me, and for overall not living up to my supposed potential...
How is it relevant, one might ask?
Well ZOS, you act like a sixteen year old overworked student with little time to spare on Philosophy when you could be thinking about boys, shopping, movies or literally anything else. Only what isn't too surprising though condemnable coming from a teenager stuck with a mandatory subject in high school, doesn't work out for grown-up professionals who get paid for it.

Even as you submit these ideas in meetings, work on them, and eventually throw them in the live server, I hope that you too feel ashamed. I hope that you are aware of your own disregard for your work, of the players' degrading opinion of you with every questionable decision that makes it live, and of the fact that you're missing out. This game has so much potential, so many opportunities just waiting to be seized, and players still around hoping for change. But that's all it is, unrealized, untapped potential waiting to be expanded upon by devs who would care.
And I really hope that you come around to it.

Maybe rotten ideas like Powered staves stem from a disillusionment in your work, and the universe overall; that state of mind where you just want to submit something and say "done" if only for your superiors to leave you alone, because ultimately none of it is real, and none of it matters. Maybe you wanted to be an archaeologist or a movie star or an explorer, and you ended up working a routine desk job, where everyday feels the same, lines of code stretch out beyond what waking eyes can see, and there is no excitement in sight.
But what I hope you get is that your game is an adventure. It is a wonderful world filled with original and diverse PvE dungeons, landscapes, storylines, not even to mention players themselves, who desperately try to make good PvP happen and bring relevant suggestions to your attention.
And this content is dynamic, what with ESO being an mmo and all. You keep expanding and rewriting it, pushing DLCs, and praise-worthy improvements (looking at Apothecary Satchels here). So maybe you do have somewhat boring job that doesn't live up to your childhood expectations, but never forget that these lines of code you work on make other people travel. From the burning sands of Alik'r to the battlefields of Cyrodiil. A world where you're a hero, where you feel like your decisions matter, where there is magic and you can do pretty much whatever, as long as its in line with the Community Rules. A world where you can go to escape the constant disappointment and downsides of a bleak everyday life, or simply to spend a good time. And your decisions to implement that worthless loot in supposedly difficult end-game content that requires time and dedication serve to ruin immersion more than any in-game troll ever could.

For all the lack of communication, support and back-and-forth with the playerbase, for all the game-breaking bugs that remain live for months at a time and lack of in-game GM presence, you do make good things happen.


Nothing is eternal. Not the universe, not you or me, and certainly not ESO. But your ship hasn't sunk yet. Over two years later, there is still a game, there are still forums, there are still players, and there is still hope. So seize the moment and make it truly great before it becomes irrelevant and cedes its place to Camelot Unchained or whatever equally promising game the future holds.

I don't know whether you have given up on the community just like you seemingly have given up on some aspects of the game (*cough* PvP *cough*), but just like I personally do not say you're entirely worthless because of your mishaps and try to acknowledge the good stuff that makes it live, you should not judge the community by a few rotten eggs that write in caps, put in a lot of exclamation marks to sound more important and say stuff like "omg i'm quitting the game, what a sham, zos you suck, worst game ever" yadda yadda. They do not reflect the majority of the players' opinions, and even if they do offend you with childish insults, you can always wipe your tears with the dollars they've spent on Dro Mathra mounts or Crown Crates.

This is a serious thread. Well as serious as one can get regarding a futile First World issue like unbalanced loot in an mmorpg. But nonetheless, please acknowledge it. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno




And whenever you decide to add nonsensical stuff like powered destruction staves or restoration staves of the vicious ophidian, please remember that people do care. And that you should too.

covenant_merchant

There's a number of suggestions that people have already put up on forums and tried to convey to you, if only you were willing to listen.

• Make a token system: get tokens after each run, and a certain amount of tokens gives you the right to chose a weapon
• Add Undaunted Plunder to vMSA, or any kind of material reward. It is a Trial, after all. People spend valuable and expensive potions, repair gear, only to be rewarded with nothing. It's one of the biggest gold sinks in game at the moment, along with crafting motifs. And not everyone has gold to sink to begin with.
• Bring back the old trait system: Sharpened - Precise - Defending, which worked, and should not have been changed to begin with.
• Give all vMSA weapons the same probability to drop, instead of one global probability per big weapon type, and then one chance per sub-type.
• Make vMSA weapons tradeable between people who have completed it in a day/week/ever.
• Make vMSA weapons Bind on Equip.
• Add other interesting sets for people to take interest in vMSA again. (Apart from Winterborn, and maybe Hunt on a stamblade with shade, the sets that drop from vMSA are worthless).
• Give the vMSA shield an actual one-piece bonus, instead of the random piece of chopped wood we get and instantly get rid off.
• Give PvP players a similar one-piece/bonus weapon to get through PvP means (amount of Alliance Points perhaps?).
• Indirectly, make jewerly craftable. Right now we're stuck with willpower/agility/endurance or aether/ophidian 3 piece combos. Which means that, should you want to equip a 5-piece bonus set and an undaunted set, you're stuck with a no-set staff (this is mostly viable for PvP though). Making jewerly craftable would give more variety to builds, and less necessity to farm vMSA for players who just don't want to have random weapons equipped.

These all seem like reasonable suggestions, and there were threads made, polls voted upon, and overall a big response from the community about this issue. But, whenever you get your hopes up seing that there is a Z logo next to it and a dev has commented, it's usually to say "this thread has been moved to X category" or "this comment has been edited for profanity/irrelevance".
Come on, team! We know you're here somewhere, doing /lurk on ERP threads. So lets talk for once about what actually matters.

EDITED:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Rich hasn't been arrested. He still silently lurks the forums daily, but word on the street is that you're more likely to get a /lurk out of him with constructive posts.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I normally lurk on the forums pretty regularly – expect to see me out and about a bit more often.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno this is as constructive as posts can get.


And since I wrote a post the size of a small novel by now, I would like to acknowledge all the contributors to the data, whose names I really cba copying.


Here's to you, team. May you live long and prosper.

Wollust

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I really appreciate your work on this. If I have pushback, its that I can't believe for one second that Sharp has twice the drop rate of other traits. There is definitely some reporting bias going on. I am sure that bias cuts both ways, but as Sharp is far and away the most desirable trait, it's going to be effected the most buy this. Since every other trait essentially is garbage, I think the magnitude of the negative bias is spread out a bit.

Asmael

I want to get a sharp 2h sword.

17 drops for 1471 attempts, 1.1556% chance to drop per run.

Suuuuure. I'll find something else.

Reorx_Holybeard

Awesome stuff. I think it perfectly summarizes all the complaints about vMA loot since it came out. The more I think about low chance, random Bind-on-Pickup loot the less I like it. Random Bind-on-Equip loot is fine, and even random BOP is ok if the chance is relatively high, but a 1/144 chance to get a good BOP item is inherently unfair. Why does Player 1 get his Sharpened Inferno Staff in 1 run (yes, we all hate him) while Player 2 takes 500 runs to get it?

A token system would balance this perfectly or even most of the other suggestions you listed. At the very least I'd like to see the leader-board rewards be limited to actually good traits for both the weapon and jewelry which would give more incentive to actually getting on them.

Panth141

Really nice post OP - I may have just skimmed some of the wordier bits, but the data looks good and seems to - to some degree - mirror the proposed fractional drop-rates.

The only point that I'd add - and you did discuss a similar point in your post - is that, as the Sword & Shield skill line makes no distinction between the one-handed weapon that you choose to use, there is effectively no difference between a sword & mace - I would be tempted to reflect this in your (lovely) pie charts; perhaps by making both of them the same colour and showing the sum of the two probabilities as a single value?

As the fractional weightings show - Resto & Bow have a biased weighting when compared to individual drops - but as there is no difference between sword & mace, I'd be tempted to treat them as a single drop together, implying that the S&B drop is in line with Resto & Bow - as many people complain about the seemingly biased rates of S&B, along with Resto & Bow.

covenant_merchant

@Panth141 Well Sword and Mace do not have the same item bonuses, with sword offering more damage and mace more penetration. Just like I haven't grouped up Axe and Dagger, with Dagger having way more PvE utility due to the crit bonus though both offer the same vMSA-specific enchantment, I didn't think it relevant to group maces and swords.

The quote from Alanar right beneath sums it up though: all 1-handed weapons are grouped up in one big category, and all 2-handed weapons (minus bows and restoration staves) too.

And I've edited the more wordier bits where I was just saying that as a whole, vMSA weapons have more PvE utility than vDSA ones. And calling ZOS' out on their terrible decisions regarding traits.

Jaronking

Asmael wrote: »

I want to get a sharp 2h sword.

17 drops for 1471 attempts, 1.1556% chance to drop per run.

Suuuuure. I'll find something else.

I just want a sharpened 2h in general this made me cry inside @ZOS_RichLambert any comment.

Panth141

@kasa-obake

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but, when using one-hand and shield there is no passive comparable to the DW Twin Blade and Blunt passive, meaning that there is no difference between a sword or mace.

I get that this is not the case when Dual Wielding; there is a definite difference between different weapon choices due to the DW TB&B passive - but I don't expect that anyone is after the vMA sword/mace for DW!

covenant_merchant

@Panth141 actually I just checked and it's true. I kind of assumed it had the same specifics as DW due to some dk friends that kept telling me they wanted maces and not swords on a backbar for more Dragon Blood. Then yes, it does make sense to pack them up, but unfortunately I'm too lazy to do so right now.
Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

And funny thing, I saw a Khajiit Nightblade dual wielding with vMSA swords. At first I thought it was oversized daggers due to a visual bug, but nope - those were actual swords since he had given up on trying to get daggers and thought the style looked cool.

Erock25

Hey OP, you were way too venomous in your post to ever get a reply from ZOS. Tame it up and you may get a reply and should. It literally has to have zero negative insinuations about the dev team to even have a chance at a reply and I stopped reading after the second time you said they should be ashamed.

covenant_merchant

Erock25 wrote: »

Hey OP, you were way too venomous in your post to ever get a reply from ZOS. Tame it up and you may get a reply and should. It literally has to have zero negative insinuations about the dev team to even have a chance at a reply and I stopped reading after the second time you said they should be ashamed.

Made a post one month ago, very constructive and civil, without the whole "rant" part. Went on posting it on every vMSA loot thread as well as threads where @ZOS_RichLambert had posted minutes earlier (thanks to stalking his activity). Guess who replied ? No one.
While at the same time Wrobel answered on my "list of current PvP exploits" thread (not that it brought much since we still have no ETA on a fix but w/e, it's the intention that counts).

So regardless of what I write, I have little hopes for the relevant devs to read it, so why not go a bit overboard and calling them out on their crap. The "waiting for acknowledgment" title is merely formal, and who knows, if there's enough community response, maybe devs will stop being offended and take action.

Also, what would you propose to call the decision to make Powered Destruction staves and charged vMSA loot ? "Reasonable"? "A great addition no doubt lauded by many" ?

Erock25

kasa-obake wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Hey OP, you were way too venomous in your post to ever get a reply from ZOS. Tame it up and you may get a reply and should. It literally has to have zero negative insinuations about the dev team to even have a chance at a reply and I stopped reading after the second time you said they should be ashamed.

Made a post one month ago, very constructive and civil, without the whole "rant" part. Went on posting it on every vMSA loot thread as well as threads where @ZOS_RichLambert had posted minutes earlier (thanks to stalking his activity). Guess who replied ? No one.
While at the same time Wrobel answered on my "list of current PvP exploits" thread (not that it brought much since we still have no ETA on a fix but w/e, it's the intention that counts).

So regardless of what I write, I have little hopes for the relevant devs to read it, so why not go a bit overboard and calling them out on their crap. The "waiting for acknowledgment" title is merely formal, and who knows, if there's enough community response, maybe devs will stop being offended and take action.

Also, what would you propose to call the decision to make Powered Destruction staves and charged vMSA loot ? "Reasonable"? "A great addition no doubt lauded by many" ?

I want a reply from ZOS on this thread as well and just telling you like it is. You will never receive one in a post where you call out the devs in that way. I'm right there with you on the overall message of your post and how loot distribution is terrible but I can't fault the devs for ignoring a post that insults them.

covenant_merchant

Erock25 wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Hey OP, you were way too venomous in your post to ever get a reply from ZOS. Tame it up and you may get a reply and should. It literally has to have zero negative insinuations about the dev team to even have a chance at a reply and I stopped reading after the second time you said they should be ashamed.

Made a post one month ago, very constructive and civil, without the whole "rant" part. Went on posting it on every vMSA loot thread as well as threads where @ZOS_RichLambert had posted minutes earlier (thanks to stalking his activity). Guess who replied ? No one.
While at the same time Wrobel answered on my "list of current PvP exploits" thread (not that it brought much since we still have no ETA on a fix but w/e, it's the intention that counts).

So regardless of what I write, I have little hopes for the relevant devs to read it, so why not go a bit overboard and calling them out on their crap. The "waiting for acknowledgment" title is merely formal, and who knows, if there's enough community response, maybe devs will stop being offended and take action.

Also, what would you propose to call the decision to make Powered Destruction staves and charged vMSA loot ? "Reasonable"? "A great addition no doubt lauded by many" ?

I want a reply from ZOS on this thread as well and just telling you like it is. You will never receive one in a post where you call out the devs in that way. I'm right there with you on the overall message of your post and how loot distribution is terrible but I can't fault the devs for ignoring a post that insults them.

Well, even if I make yet another thread with "0 offence intended, devs you rock", it would just be hypocritical and ignored. The stuff I post has been out there for months. The vMSA related one since November 2. Just because I overhaul this post completely, that won't make my previous comments void. And if the devs get offended for me calling them out on a few terrible decisions while at the same time acknowledging all the good stuff they make, they are probably the sort of people that won't forget or forgive even if a kids-friendly post makes it live.

Feel free to use my data and make a 0 criticism post yourself. I would greatly appreciate it. But should I make it, it will probably have 0 impact. Just look at the poster with 12 or so stars. For all his stars and relevant comments, he's already on the devs' *** list.

mtwiggz

Can't tell you exactly how many times I have ran vMA but I can tell you out of the 50+ runs literally all I have gotten is an assortment of bows and resto staves. Not even a single worthless trait sword, 2H, destro staff, etc.

Broken RNG is broken.

Artis

Yeah, I have nothing against RNG, but RNG doesn't work correctly in this game.

If the data is true and no one lied or just put his/her estimate of what they got (technically it is possible, of course), then now it's an overwhelming proof, that the RNG doesn't work correctly and the drop rates for different items aren't equal.

I am still against the tokens for BiS gear, but the RNG system has to be fixed and useless traits have to be removed from the loot table or reworked. For example, charged could enhance set bonuses a little. Maybe a player could choose a pool of weapons and a pool of traits he will draw loot from.

But yeah, these data are already convincing and the sample is representative for quite a big number of clears now.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

kasa-obake wrote: »

There's a number of suggestions that people have already put up on forums and tried to convey to you, if only you were willing to listen.

• Make a token system: get tokens after each run, and a certain amount of tokens gives you the right to chose a weapon
• Add Undaunted Plunder to vMSA, or any kind of material reward. It is a Trial, after all. People spend valuable and expensive potions, repair gear, only to be rewarded with nothing. It's one of the biggest gold sinks in game at the moment, along with crafting motifs. And not everyone has gold to sink to begin with.
• Bring back the old trait system: Sharpened - Precise - Defending, which worked, and should not have been changed to begin with.
• Give all vMSA weapons the same probability to drop, instead of one global probability per big weapon type, and then one chance per sub-type.
• Make vMSA weapons tradeable between people who have completed it in a day/week/ever.
• Make vMSA weapons Bind on Equip.
• Add other interesting sets for people to take interest in vMSA again. (Apart from Winterborn, and maybe Hunt on a stamblade with shade, the sets that drop from vMSA are worthless).
• Give the vMSA shield an actual one-piece bonus, instead of the random piece of chopped wood we get and instantly get rid off.
• Give PvP players a similar one-piece/bonus weapon to get through PvP means (amount of Alliance Points perhaps?).
• Indirectly, make jewerly craftable. Right now we're stuck with willpower/agility/endurance or aether/ophidian 3 piece combos. Which means that, should you want to equip a 5-piece bonus set and an undaunted set, you're stuck with a no-set staff (this is mostly viable for PvP though). Making jewerly craftable would give more variety to builds, and less necessity to farm vMSA for players who just don't want to have random weapons equipped.

These all seem like reasonable suggestions, and there were threads made, polls voted upon, and overall a big response from the community about this issue. But, whenever you get your hopes up seing that there is a Z logo next to it and a dev has commented, it's usually to say "this thread has been moved to X category" or "this comment has been edited for profanity/irrelevance".
Come on, team! We know you're here somewhere, doing /lurk on ERP threads. So lets talk for once about what actually matters.

EDITED:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Rich hasn't been arrested. He still silently lurks the forums daily, but word on the street is that you're more likely to get a /lurk out of him with constructive posts.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I normally lurk on the forums pretty regularly – expect to see me out and about a bit more often.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno this is as constructive as posts can get.


And since I wrote a post the size of a small novel by now, I would like to acknowledge all the contributors to the data, whose names I really cba copying.


Here's to you, team. May you live long and prosper.

I agree with almost everyone of the suggestions. Not exactly sure what jewelry crafting has to do with it, there is so much jewelry in the game that there are plenty of ways to run multiple 5 pieces and not have dead spots. I also will never agree with making VMA weapons BOE. No issue with making them tradable or sellable to other players with the stormproof achievement, but you should have to clear VMA to use a VMA weapon. This might sound elitest, but I would also not be opposed to increased drop rates for people with a Flawless title.

Lastly, (Total Side-bar, but I cant help it) I dont think you are using the term Gold Sink correctly. VMA is a gold sink for the cost of repairs, which can be substantial, but really nothing else. For me personally, it is not a gold sink. I get more gold from each chest then it costs to repair. This is true of anyone that can clear with only a handful of deaths and bothers to loot the chest. It is certainly a gold sink when learning. Crafting motifs are NOT a gold sink. In an economy like this, gold basically does three things.

1. It comes into the game from things like quests, undaunted plunder, cyro rewards, and farming mobs. Every time this happens, the total gold in the economy increases. If this happens too fast, we see inflation. Just like if a government just starts printing money. This is certainly an issue. A piece of gold today is not worth what it was a year ago.

2. Gold leaves the game. This is the only true Gold Sink. This happens from buying guild traders, feeding horses, repairs, or pretty much anything you buy from a vendor (including the PVP vendor if you use gold). Every time this happens, there is less total gold in the game. The only part applicable to VMA is the Repair bill. The more gold sinks you have, the better you are able to control inflation and the value of the currency. An appropriate balance between 1 and 2 is very important. The game certainly needs more gold sinks, which is one reason housing will be very welcomed.

3. Gold exchanges hands between players. I buy a stack of pots or a motif from player X. This might feel like a gold sink, but it really is not. Nothing is changing in terms of the total available gold. Dont get me wrong, an active market is important to the health of an economy, but it is a separate issue than a total volume of currency and the effect on currency value.

TLDR: Please fix the VMA loot system.

Jaronking

I say they could fix the majority of these problems by doing what you said allowed us to trade weapons with someone else who have completed VMa or to make it more restrictive only allow people with flawless conquer to trade weapons with other flawless conquers. @ZOS_RichLambert

silky_soft

@kasa-obake you forgot the suggestion for extraction.

Once you reach 9 traits in said weapon you can extract the enchant.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

kasa-obake wrote: »

There's a number of suggestions that people have already put up on forums and tried to convey to you, if only you were willing to listen.

• Make a token system: get tokens after each run, and a certain amount of tokens gives you the right to chose a weapon
• Add Undaunted Plunder to vMSA, or any kind of material reward. It is a Trial, after all. People spend valuable and expensive potions, repair gear, only to be rewarded with nothing. It's one of the biggest gold sinks in game at the moment, along with crafting motifs. And not everyone has gold to sink to begin with.
• Bring back the old trait system: Sharpened - Precise - Defending, which worked, and should not have been changed to begin with.
• Give all vMSA weapons the same probability to drop, instead of one global probability per big weapon type, and then one chance per sub-type.
• Make vMSA weapons tradeable between people who have completed it in a day/week/ever.
• Make vMSA weapons Bind on Equip.
• Add other interesting sets for people to take interest in vMSA again. (Apart from Winterborn, and maybe Hunt on a stamblade with shade, the sets that drop from vMSA are worthless).
• Give the vMSA shield an actual one-piece bonus, instead of the random piece of chopped wood we get and instantly get rid off.
• Give PvP players a similar one-piece/bonus weapon to get through PvP means (amount of Alliance Points perhaps?).
• Indirectly, make jewerly craftable. Right now we're stuck with willpower/agility/endurance or aether/ophidian 3 piece combos. Which means that, should you want to equip a 5-piece bonus set and an undaunted set, you're stuck with a no-set staff (this is mostly viable for PvP though). Making jewerly craftable would give more variety to builds, and less necessity to farm vMSA for players who just don't want to have random weapons equipped.

These all seem like reasonable suggestions, and there were threads made, polls voted upon, and overall a big response from the community about this issue. But, whenever you get your hopes up seing that there is a Z logo next to it and a dev has commented, it's usually to say "this thread has been moved to X category" or "this comment has been edited for profanity/irrelevance".
Come on, team! We know you're here somewhere, doing /lurk on ERP threads. So lets talk for once about what actually matters.

EDITED:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Rich hasn't been arrested. He still silently lurks the forums daily, but word on the street is that you're more likely to get a /lurk out of him with constructive posts.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

I normally lurk on the forums pretty regularly – expect to see me out and about a bit more often.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno this is as constructive as posts can get.


And since I wrote a post the size of a small novel by now, I would like to acknowledge all the contributors to the data, whose names I really cba copying.


Here's to you, team. May you live long and prosper.

I agree with almost everyone of the suggestions. Not exactly sure what jewelry crafting has to do with it, there is so much jewelry in the game that there are plenty of ways to run multiple 5 pieces and not have dead spots. I also will never agree with making VMA weapons BOE. No issue with making them tradable or sellable to other players with the stormproof achievement, but you should have to clear VMA to use a VMA weapon. This might sound elitest, but I would also not be opposed to increased drop rates for people with a Flawless title.

Lastly, (Total Side-bar, but I cant help it) I dont think you are using the term Gold Sink correctly. VMA is a gold sink for the cost of repairs, which can be substantial, but really nothing else. For me personally, it is not a gold sink. I get more gold from each chest then it costs to repair. This is true of anyone that can clear with only a handful of deaths and bothers to loot the chest. It is certainly a gold sink when learning. Crafting motifs are NOT a gold sink. In an economy like this, gold basically does three things.

1. It comes into the game from things like quests, undaunted plunder, cyro rewards, and farming mobs. Every time this happens, the total gold in the economy increases. If this happens too fast, we see inflation. Just like if a government just starts printing money. This is certainly an issue. A piece of gold today is not worth what it was a year ago.

2. Gold leaves the game. This is the only true Gold Sink. This happens from buying guild traders, feeding horses, repairs, or pretty much anything you buy from a vendor (including the PVP vendor if you use gold). Every time this happens, there is less total gold in the game. The only part applicable to VMA is the Repair bill. The more gold sinks you have, the better you are able to control inflation and the value of the currency. An appropriate balance between 1 and 2 is very important. The game certainly needs more gold sinks, which is one reason housing will be very welcomed.

3. Gold exchanges hands between players. I buy a stack of pots or a motif from player X. This might feel like a gold sink, but it really is not. Nothing is changing in terms of the total available gold. Dont get me wrong, an active market is important to the health of an economy, but it is a separate issue than a total volume of currency and the effect on currency value.

TLDR: Please fix the VMA loot system.

Vma gold sink because of pots. Right context used...

ArchMikem

*Analyzes potential gain from finally attempting my first vMA run*

MakoFore

this is like the climax of the film where the top student stands up to the crappy headmaster- and then one by one we all jump on the table and say "I'm spartacus!" ....wait maybe I'm mixing up my movies..but if i could- stand on a table and say "i m spartacus!!" well then i would.

seriously i hope they read this and put it on the powerpoint project next meeting they have. the thing that pisses me off the most about this game??
the community clearly that love the game so much more than the developers. its clear. look at the add-ons that they've made next to the crappy ui system that was first and still implemented- to fix their problems. look at the suggestions each and every day - which go ignored

if we complain its cos we love this freaking game so much- and we wish they'd share some of that passion and have some vision- and at least listen to us. we make the game also.

GilGalad

@kasa-obake would you mind if I include your charts in my post about the math of RNG? (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/305700/math-of-rng-problems-suggestions)

With source and credits of course. In the calculations I did, I already used the assumption that there are drop categories, but it's nicer to back it up with some data.

covenant_merchant

@Gil.Galad Sure, knock yourself out. I'd love to read the final product.

@MakoFore Oh captain, my captain, you could use of some more dramatic soliloquies while standing on tables. It's greatly liberating. And yes, for all its faults and rage-inducing moments, I do love this game. Which is why I take the time out of my no doubt busy life (just kidding, I have time to spare) to try and bring the devs' attention to actual issues.

Sometimes it works,

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for the post @kasa-obake. We're working on a fix for Eye of the Storm now and investigating the other bugs you've posted here.

and sometimes, there is no answer for over a month, just like here. Can't blame me for trying though.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw I did mean vMSA as a sink because of potions. Though now, it's slightly less relevant due to Apothecary Satchels. One arena costs me usually 48 gold in repairs (well unless I slack really hard or talk in guild chats or watch crappy reality tv or w/e). The chest brings 90 gold. However, I do use potions - Spell Power ones for weekly runs and regular mana ones otherwise. And given their prices on PC EU at the time I first posted my data (which only had 510 runs a month ago), vMSA as a gold sink was quite relevant.

And yes, I'd love a trading system in between Flawless Conquerors, though even now this title is quite worthless. I saw Stamina DKs with Black Rose and Viper in Grathwood having Flawless and yet doing group dungeons with the same set-up. I remember back in the day, seeing a stam dk with Flawless was actually awe-inspiring. Same with sorcs, though they were and still are easy mode (and I should know, I main one), in April I struggled way more with my resources with Kena. Now I can put up my ground dots, and emote outside of the red circles while Ilambris does the rest.
Now, due to the widespread knowledge of the mechanics and better sets, it's quite easy to get it without dying.

Masel

kasa-obake wrote: »

@Gil.Galad Sure, knock yourself out. I'd love to read the final product.

@MakoFore Oh captain, my captain, you could use of some more dramatic soliloquies while standing on tables. It's greatly liberating. And yes, for all its faults and rage-inducing moments, I do love this game. Which is why I take the time out of my no doubt busy life (just kidding, I have time to spare) to try and bring the devs' attention to actual issues.

Sometimes it works,

Wrobel wrote: »

Thanks for the post @kasa-obake. We're working on a fix for Eye of the Storm now and investigating the other bugs you've posted here.

and sometimes, there is no answer for over a month, just like here. Can't blame me for trying though.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw I did mean vMSA as a sink because of potions. Though now, it's slightly less relevant due to Apothecary Satchels. One arena costs me usually 48 gold in repairs (well unless I slack really hard or talk in guild chats or watch crappy reality tv or w/e). The chest brings 90 gold. However, I do use potions - Spell Power ones for weekly runs and regular mana ones otherwise. And given their prices on PC EU at the time I first posted my data (which only had 510 runs a month ago), vMSA as a gold sink was quite relevant.

And yes, I'd love a trading system in between Flawless Conquerors, though even now this title is quite worthless. I saw Stamina DKs with Black Rose and Viper in Grathwood having Flawless and yet doing group dungeons with the same set-up. I remember back in the day, seeing a stam dk with Flawless was actually awe-inspiring. Same with sorcs, though they were and still are easy mode (and I should know, I main one), in April I struggled way more with my resources with Kena. Now I can put up my ground dots, and emote outside of the red circles while Ilambris does the rest.
Now, due to the widespread knowledge of the mechanics and better sets, it's quite easy to get it without dying.

And I felt special when I got my flawless on my mag dk yesterday,until I recognised that no-one cares anymore

OP, this is one of the best and truthful posts I've seen in a long time, and I would share it or spread it out, but sadly, it doesn't seem to matter at all that we waste our game time with this arena, while enraging more and more with each hour that we wasted for a powered bow.


On PC EU, the leaderboards on all four classes aren't even completed with 100 players, and that says a lot about the fun that players have in there...

Jaronking

Hey @ZOS_RichLambert any comment.

code65536

Thanks for the data confirming the drop distribution.

This is what we've long suspected: that it's an even 1/6 drop chance per weapon class (dual-wield, 1HS, 2H, bow, destro, resto), and then once the weapon class has been rolled, the weapon subclass is chosen. Bows and restos have no subclass, so they are 1/6. 1HS drops in swords or maces, so each is 1/12, but the difference is entirely cosmetic whether you use a sword or mace. Dual-wield also has two subclasses, and they are different in what they do, but since there is quite a bit of flexibility (1x dagger and 1x axe is ideal, but 2x daggers isn't bad, with 2x axes being the only combination that you really want to avoid), this drop scheme isn't that bad. Similarly, the difference between the three types of 2-handers isn't that much, and most players are fine with any type--they care more that it's sharpened than that it is a sword or axe or maul.

Where this sort of drop scheme gets problematic is with destro staves, where there is quite a lot of difference between the three types.

Anyway, I strongly believe that the best solution is to enable trait recrafting. I don't believe I saw that as one of your proposed solutions. Make it require knowledge of all 9 traits for that item or something. It would simultaneously address the concerns about the usefulness of crafting while putting to rest the problems of trait balance and RNG trait rolls.

hrothbern

In this old post I made in a Tempers RNG thread a suggestion to change the kind of RNG for vMA to make it more pallatable

hrothbern wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

I really believe the RNG can get 'stuck' which creates the long droughts. A while ago I did a small experiment. I went out and got 200 fish. For the first 100 fillet, I did it all at once and I got 1 roe. For the next 100, I did them in groups of 10 with long periods of breaks (a few hours to a day) in between, and I got 3 roe. Now this was just me, and in order to do a real study you would need many people trying this, but then again, RNG is crappy.

This is a variation of the "gamblers fallacy". In casinos, the roulette tables will have big digital signs next to them listing the last 20 or so numbers to come out. Do you think they are doing that to help the player? Of course not! They want you to look at board and say, "No odd number has come out in a while. I bet one is due! I'm going all in on odd." Or, "14 has come out three times in the last 20 spins. I bet it is more likely to come out than other numbers. I am going to bet that!" Or, "No red number has come out on this table in a while, I am going to go to the other roulette table."

But all of this is random and the randomness is most visible in small sample sets (thus the last 20 spins, not last 20,000 spins).

You can all jump in circles and do rain dances and kiss your "R" key and log in and out and use different crafting stations ... but it is still a completely independent roll each time with no gold temper 19 of 20 times.

Perhaps ZOS should make this "gamblers fallacy" the way to handle the Maelstrom RNG.

Not anymore the RNG of a random dice, a RNG without memory
But the RNG of a deck of cards, a RNG with a memory,
ensuring you always get that Ace of Spades after 52 draws.
The seeding of the RNG is only how the deck is shuffled, which detemines WHEN you get your desired weapon.


Implementing that:
The current way the percentages between the kind of weapons is organised is a bit clumsy:
From 6 kinds of weapons, each kind of weapons has a 1:6 chance and is then divided by the nr of weapons of that kind.
So Destro is 1:6 and because there are 3 Destro staffs, each has a 1:18 chance.
With 8 traits this would cause a deck of 144 "cards".
Not nice, but you have the certainty that you have it after 144 runs.

AND.... the more runs you did without your wished for weapon/trait.... the more chance you get it the next run !!!


Here below the TLTR that describes the numbers.
The clumsy factor that comes in is caused by the one-hand weapons:
The six kinds are:

1. Destro for 1:6 & 3 kinds => 1:18 for each Destro type
2. Bow for 1:6 & only 1 kind => 1:6 for Bow
3. Two-handed 1:6 & 3 kinds => 1:18 for each Two-handed type
4. Resto for 1:6 & only 1 kind => 1:6 for Resto
5. One-handed DW 1:6 & 2 kinds => 1:12 for each DW type
6. One-handed S&B 1:6 & 2 kinds => 1:12 for each S&B type

The common denominator of the first 4 listed weapons is 18 => a deck of 144 cards would cover all permutations.
The One-handed line is causing the clumsy issue, because it forces to 36 as common denominator. Causing a much too big deck of cards of 288.
This could easily be solved if ZOS would reduce the chance of the One-handed S&B to 1:9. Causing a 1:18 for each S&B type.
AND the One-handed DW would be increased to 1:4.5. Causing a 1:9 for each DW type, which fits very well by the need to have TWO weapons for your Dual wielding.
By this 18 is the common denominator for all weapons.

So... all in all a deck of 144 "cards" is technically very well possible

giving the Maelstrom RNG a memory... ensuring that your chances to get your weapon INCREASE after each failed run.

Masel

I think it's a shame that they aren't replying, as you spent so much time in collecting the data and writing the post... It does concern a lot of their regular players!

Waffennacht

Flawless conquers are the first to get my duel invites, so... i notice