Official Discussion Thread for "ESO Welcomes Crown Crates"

Darkstorne

Recremen wrote: »

Friendly reminder that adding in a gamble-for-content feature is exactly equivalent with ZOS saying "we are perfectly content with people spending money and not getting anything out of it". Every detail about the gambling boxes is a business psych trick to squeeze cash out of you without any promise that you're even getting the very cosmetic items that are supposed to keep this damn game afloat. The "gems" are just the latest in a list of refinements to make gambling more appealing. It is nothing more than fair banking, and is designed not even to let you actually buy what you wanted in the first place, but to increase the amount you are willing to spend before giving up.


We must fully reject gambling as a means of content delivery.

We must fully reject a gambling addition to a perfectly functional cash shop.

We must fully reject exclusive, high quality content being used to incentivize gambling.



We must embrace direct purchase of content as the only means of delivery.

We must embrace direct purchase as the only acceptable feature in a cash shop.

We must embrace honest, clear pricing for goods and services.

This cannot be quoted enough. If every post in every thread from now until the end of time was this post, it still wouldn't be overstated.

There are genuine grounds for this business model to be heavily scrutinised under EU digital consumer rights laws. The only thing protecting this MMO trend from gambling laws right now is the fact that it's an in-game currency instead of real-world currency. That's it. It's shady as ****, and I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see it made illegal in the near future, in their current form at least (lack of disclosing odds genuinely makes this WORSE than gambling).

fangroth

kamimark wrote: »

So everyone who says "END OF THE GAME!" will be dropping sub & deleting accounts Thursday, then? Back to grinding 10 boar asses for a 4cp quest reward in WoW?
[Edit to remove insulting content]

WoW offers more (and various types of) mounts through gameplay. Yes, WoW is a sub-only game with an extra cash shop, but the offerings of said cash shop are pretty limited and some have similar items that can be earned in game. ESO has a box price, offers a subscription, and STILL paywalls its most interesting customization options behind a cash shop and now gamble crates. Why even bother "competing" with WoW or FFXIV when you can race SWTOR, Rift, BDO, or Archeage to the bottom?

MadLarkin

kamimark wrote: »

So everyone who says "END OF THE GAME!" will be dropping sub & deleting accounts Thursday, then? Back to grinding 10 boar asses for a 4cp quest reward in WoW?

The crates are just a chance at some silly consumable & cosmetic stuff. It doesn't hurt you in the least, except petty jealousy, if you don't have a storm atronach horse.

https://youtu.be/ZaB_G1WNT70?t=18s

As for me, I'll probably buy a 4-pack every month. All else should do the same to keep ZOS's lights on.

[Edit to remove insulting content]

You missed the point of most of the community's complaints. This sort of system has always, without fail, lead to a focus on jamming items into these crates instead of building meaningful content for the game in question. It kills the quality of the game in the long term, thinning out the playerbase. Not to mention the fact that this is a F2P business model, not a B2P + DLC + Optional Subscription + Game Store business model. And, in most F2P games with gambling crates, there is usually an alternate way of obtaining the items. Through play/grind, or in the case of STO, buying/selling the crate items on the in-game market for in-game currency.

Tandor

Xabien wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

Mx13 wrote: »

Xabien wrote: »

Maotti wrote: »

Then it is really settled, Thursday is the day ESO as we know it dies.

Shameful indeed.

Second time that's happened for some of us. First came after they went back on "we'd rather switch the server off than move away from sub model"

They never said that tho.

CBA to dig up the original interview, think it was from 2014 iirc, but Paul Sage said he'd switch the servers off before making the switch, made a big song and dance about their stance and their ethics.

Here's another interview which was easier to find, he makes similar overtures in this: http://gamingbolt.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-business-model-is-what-the-business-model-is

All he said in that link is that they had no plans he was aware of to change the model. I can well imagine that to have been true at the time, but if you have evidence that it wasn't the case then let's see it. However, there's nothing in that interview that could remotely be described as making "similar overtures" to an unsupported allegation that elsewhere he said he'd rather close the servers down than change the business model.

People are quick to accuse ZOS of telling all sorts of lies and breaking all sorts of promises, but it's funny how when they get asked for evidence they never have any. Then they invariably complain that ZOS no longer communicate with the people who have distorted everything they have said in the past!

I don't support everything ZOS do, and the game is certainly not without its faults, but when claims like yours are bandied about there really is a need to put up or shut up. If you can unearth the quote about closing down the servers then I'll freely apologise for getting it wrong, if you can't unearth that quote will you freely apologise for getting it wrong?

If you want it, you know where Google is. As I said, I'm not trawling through two year old information to satisfy your need. I read the articles then, I read the articles now and I absorb the information I read in them. I'm not doing your research for you if you're not happy with what I've said, but feel free to do it yourself.

Why should I spend time looking for something that doesn't exist?

spiffy_jim

Alucardo wrote: »

Happily.

Meet too - I signed up back in Beta when we it was a subscription model. Most of my friends play either WoW or FFXIV and both games are forced subscription.

I wonder if an MMO has ever gone back to a sub after moving to F2P?

Elsonso

XRavishX wrote: »

I don't see the problem with the crown crates. Yeah, they're RNG, but it's gambling. People still drop $5, $10, or $20 on scratch off tickets that more often than not net them with either a free ticket to try again or nothing at all, yet you don't see people whining about how bad the RNG win rate is. They still go out and buy them not because they're guaranteed a win, but because they might.

Crown crates are better than the normal lottery because you'll at always get at least something of value be it in the form of some item or converted gems to spend later once you've saved enough. Simply put, you always win. And, just like with the standard lottery you can choose to participate or not. There's nothing that forces anyone to buy the crates nor does anyone lose anything by not buying them. All the items are either aesthetic or have questionable usefulness. In other words, those that do buy the crates don't end up more powerful than those that don't.

So, for those of you who like gambling, I think this is probably a decent way to fulfill that itch. For those that don't, you can rest assured that you're not missing out on anything useful. For those that want to collect absolutely everything in the game, I guess you're SOL unless you wanna drop beaucoup bucks on a lottery. At least, in the end, the mad cash you spent will get you something, unlike actual lottery. In the end, people will play the crown crate lottery because people like gambling. I know I will.

Good luck!

Welcome to the party, better late than never.

In other news, your local grocery store has introduced a new concept. Mystery Food Bags. Rather than walking up and down aisles, you just buy a Food Bag for US$5 and get a random assortment of 4, sometimes 5, items from the store. In each bag, everyone is guaranteed one or more choice items from our stock of ramen noodle soups and meat broths, plus you get a chance to get one exclusive prime cut of meat, as well as many new items not available in the store, like premium bakery items and special purchases. What's more, if you get a second item from the meat or bakery departments, you can turn it in for a special token that you can spend on exclusive Food Bag foods!

Let me also tell you about the cool new Mystery Car program that your local car dealer is coming out with. For a low low US$15,000, you are guaranteed a random car from our line of used cars, or even a chance to get the latest Italian sports cars! If you buy two packages, you get to keep both cars! Details next week.

I know you are looking forward to this. People like gambling.

Enjoy your RNG gamble boxes. I am absolutely certain that you will be satisfied with each and every one of them.

Aliniel

You will also have the option to convert several items obtained from Crown Crates to Crown Gems any time you want. Items that can be manually converted include potions, poisons, riding lessons, experience scrolls, and other utility-type items.

As a ESO Plus member who has a lot of Crowns and a beta player who has all crafting skills maxed, I thank you for listening to the feedback and allowing us to sell consumables. There's still the matter if it's worth selling but any crown store consumable is worse than what I can craft. This is a step in the right direction for sure.

Tandor

spiffy_jim wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Happily.

Meet too - I signed up back in Beta when we it was a subscription model. Most of my friends play either WoW or FFXIV and both games are forced subscription.

I wonder if an MMO has ever gone back to a sub after moving to F2P?

No idea off-hand, but then quite a lot have retained optional subs after moving to B2P. Like this one, for example. I've subbed since the PC launch and the only significant change in the way the game has played for me since then (having no interest in the Crown Store or Crown Crates) is the beneficial introduction of the crafting bag, which I'm guessing I wouldn't have got if the game had remained subscription-only !

Rune_Relic

kamimark wrote: »

So everyone who says "END OF THE GAME!" will be dropping sub & deleting accounts Thursday, then? Back to grinding 10 boar asses for a 4cp quest reward in WoW?

The crates are just a chance at some silly consumable & cosmetic stuff. It doesn't hurt you in the least, except petty jealousy, if you don't have a storm atronach horse.

https://youtu.be/ZaB_G1WNT70?t=18s

As for me, I'll probably buy a 4-pack every month. All else should do the same to keep ZOS's lights on.

[Edit to remove insulting content]

Its not whats in there thats the problem
Its the fact ZOS have not one regret about ripping off their playerbase.
I mean it shows ZOS true colours yes.
And those colours are not what many ever hoped to see.

For me it means I am a bank account and not a valued community member of a game as such.
The only reason I can see for giving your community that impression was;
1. You are callous and dont value the community at all (suicide for an MMO)
2. You are desperate and doing anything and everything to make more money
Neither of these bode well.

Jazbay_Grape

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Jazbay_Grape wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I will buy a local state lottery ticket and if I win the mega millions , I'll buy a crown crate .




Just kidding , I'll spend it wisely

Can I have like $5.00 if you do win?

As long as you don't waste it on gambling .

No worries there. I was gonna use it to buy almost a half of a pack of cigarettes.

Mercutio

I hate to sound like a broken record, but this move truly baffles me.

I have held up ESO's Crown Shop as the gold standard that all MMO's should aspire to. I say the same with the optional sub - sure, you don't need it, but the Crafting Bag was a stroke of genius. I would bet more than 50% of the ESO Plus sales are because of that one aspect alone.

You've just always been so brilliant and customer friendly. It really felt like 'True Gamers' were working behind the scenes. I had so much admiration for you. And I never felt like I was being fleeced. I have no idea if I spend more or less than the average customer, but I suspect more simply because of my station in life and ability to play the game 24/7 if so desired.

I felt like I was contributing to an ethical company. Maybe that sounds absurd. But I'm no stranger to the MMORPG scene. When I say that ESO was the game that got monetization right, that comes from 20 years of not just playing MMOs but interviews I conducted with Raph Koster, Starr Long & RG, Mark Jacobs, The Smed...

Man, it just blows my mind you would do this. It's so unnecessary and makes zero sense in terms of revenue or customer retention.

I hope you come around sooner rather than later. Not just because I really love the game and want what is best for it, but for your own peace of mind. If someone in the bean counter dept. forced you to play this hand I suspect you are going to have the data for a convincing counter argument in a few quarters.

Sincerely, I wish all of you and ESO the best. Like someone said above, the game deserves better than this.

DerAlleinTiger

Alucardo wrote: »

spiffy_jim wrote: »

then we'd have to go back to a subscription model.

Happily.

Ditto there. I never cut off my sub from day 1, and would happily continue to subscribe if they went back to it.

Dagoth_Rac

XRavishX wrote: »

I don't see the problem with the crown crates. Yeah, they're RNG, but it's gambling. People still drop $5, $10, or $20 on scratch off tickets that more often than not net them with either a free ticket to try again or nothing at all, yet you don't see people whining about how bad the RNG win rate is. They still go out and buy them not because they're guaranteed a win, but because they might.

But scratch off tickets just give you the chance to win more money. More of what you spent in the first place. There is nothing locked behind scratch off tickets that cannot be obtained by ignoring scratch-off tickets and buying the item directly. If a 400 crown crate offered the chance to win another crate or win 5000 crowns, that would be the equivalent of a scratch-off ticket. That is most certainly not what is going on here. They are taking in-game items that used to be loyalty rewards for subbing, then got moved to direct purchase items in crown store, to now being locked behind real money gambling. It is distasteful. Can you imagine if HBO stopped letting you watch Game of Thrones directly? Instead you had to buy $4 "HBO Crates" that had garbage grade-Z shows and movies in them 99.99% of the time? And maybe after spending hundreds of dollars you might get the show you wanted? There would be an uproar. No one would ever accept such a practice from a "real" company.

Sigtric

Alucardo wrote: »

spiffy_jim wrote: »

then we'd have to go back to a subscription model.

Happily.

Yep. Every MMO I've played, I've enjoyed the most when it was subs only

ZOS_GinaBruno

Olav_the_Stout wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno
Does this mean we will no longer see exclusive items for sale in the crown store that are NOT in crates? I love supporting you guys, but I refuse to gamble.

There will still be Crown Store exclusive items and Limited Time Offers. We'll be publishing the December Crown Store Showcase tomorrow, so you'll be able to see the upcoming items available through the Crown Store.

lordrichter wrote: »

Also, food and drink do npt appear to be on the list. Are those utility items?

Yes, food and drink are consumables, so any obtained through Crown Crates can be converted to Crown Gems at any point.

blur wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober

According to the website:
"Each Crown Crate is associated with a special “Season" that will include uniquely themed items, and will be cycled quarterly. We're kicking off the first season of Crown Crates with the electrifying Storm Atronach theme."

So let me see if I understand this correctly, what we had on PTS was more than what you are offering each quarter correct? I remember a red wolf mount, the Frost Horse, various other mounts and costumes that are long gone from the ESO crown store, and new things like wizard hat with glasses. Are these not going to be launched with this "quarter"?

What you saw on PTS a few months ago was essentially all the items that will be available in this first season's Crown Crate.

mrs_gibbs

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

blur wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober

According to the website:
"Each Crown Crate is associated with a special “Season" that will include uniquely themed items, and will be cycled quarterly. We're kicking off the first season of Crown Crates with the electrifying Storm Atronach theme."

So let me see if I understand this correctly, what we had on PTS was more than what you are offering each quarter correct? I remember a red wolf mount, the Frost Horse, various other mounts and costumes that are long gone from the ESO crown store, and new things like wizard hat with glasses. Are these not going to be launched with this "quarter"?

What you saw on PTS a few months ago was essentially all the items that will be available in this first season's Crown Crate.

So red wolf confirmed a crown crate exclusive?... Boo.

Zabernat

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

MyNameIsElias wrote: »

It doesn't even tell us all of the items for sale in the season's crown crate, not even to mention the current gem prices.

There are a pretty fair amount of items included in a Crown Crate. You'll be able to see almost all the items you can obtain from a Crate in the Crown Store UI (save for a couple consumables). Similar to the Crown Store Showcase, prices aren't published via the website, but you'll be able to see all Gem amounts come Thursday through the same UI mentioned above.

Paulington wrote: »

So how have you addressed the backlash from PTS testing?

As mentioned in the article, we will be allowing you to manually convert several items to Crown Gems any time you want. In addition, we’ve also made the following changes since you saw Crown Crates on the PTS:

• We increased the frequency that you’ll receive higher tier rewards
• We improved the duration of the potions received from Crown Crates, but not beyond what can be crafted
• We recently added Mythic Aetherial Ambrosia to the game so you can craft a 150% XP consumable similar to those rewarded through Crown Crates

Abeille wrote: »

PLEASE just tell us if there is anything that IS NOT THEMED that is going to be exclusive.

There will be some new, non-themed items exclusive to Crown Crates, yes. These are largely going to be re-skins of existing items, though. You will be able to purchase these with Crown Gems, and they will be priced lower than the themed Apex-level mounts.

Rouven wrote: »

Can I convert any crown store consumables? Like the ones that come in bundles?

No, only consumables obtained through Crown Crates can be converted to Crown Gems.

Ilsabet wrote: »

Well one relatively positive detail, at least the way I'm interpreting it, is "You will also have the option to convert several items obtained from Crown Crates to Crown Gems any time you want." To me that sounds like you don't have to commit to either "keep or junk" as soon as you open the crate and get the items, so you can keep your consumables in reserve until you have enough to get gems for the thing you want and then junk them for gems all at once.

That's correct. Let's say you decide to keep a potion obtained from a Crown Crate. If you later decide you'd rather convert it to a Crown Gem, you can do it any time, even while it's in your inventory.

As a dedicated community member, I am extremely dissappointed to see the crown crates going live. I genuinely hope there is a plan to roll them back if the result is toxic to the community as I have many problems with the addition to the game that your reassurance does not address.
1. The new mythic aetherial ambrosia is essentially impossible to craft intentionally in-game with drop chances far less than 1% for the cypher and dust on top of requiring the already insanely low drop materials/recipe of the original potion. Having spent most of my hundreds of hours in-game since the addition of the xp potion in the zones that technically drop those items and intentionally performing all actions that supposedly drop them but seeing none of either dust or cypher, this type of addition really makes the idea of crafting these depressing as a player. The new one may as well not exist in game.
2. I see far more aesthetic appeal being put into these new "simple reskins" than was previously into any other mount skins aside from the Dro' Mathra, not to mention that they are basically not lore-friendly in general.
3. Saying the drop chances were increased, item quality increased, AND that all items could be traded for gems still probably leaves these crates as a far more expensive option than even the Dro' Mathra Senche direct purchase. The equivalent of 5200 crowns worth of crates did not even leave me with enough gems to purchase anything worth my time in the PTS, so unless the increased odds and gem returns were at least 50x, this type of gambling is something that will toxify many unwitting players against the game.
4. Why do long-time players continue to believe the game is thriving after seeing this nonsense added to the game? It has made for terrible community interactions everywhere I turn with a lot of us defending the game with not much more than the hope that our persistence will help ESO stay afloat despite additions like this.

kamimark

MadLarkin wrote: »

You missed the point of most of the community's complaints. This sort of system has always, without fail, lead to a focus on jamming items into these crates instead of building meaningful content for the game in question.

You're projecting from failed games, but ignoring more rational games. WoW doesn't do random, just $25 paid exclusive mounts; it's the very model of conspicuous consumption. And when the first shiny paid horse appeared, the SAME complaints were made, and nothing happened. Unturned does well with random cosmetic boxes, those skins are far better than the free drops but you don't need anything from them, they only serve to keep Nelson alive & coding. CS:GO apparently has the same setup, everyone loves it.

MadLarkin

kamimark wrote: »

MadLarkin wrote: »

You missed the point of most of the community's complaints. This sort of system has always, without fail, lead to a focus on jamming items into these crates instead of building meaningful content for the game in question.

You're projecting from failed games, but ignoring more rational games. WoW doesn't do random, just $25 paid exclusive mounts; it's the very model of conspicuous consumption. And when the first shiny paid horse appeared, the SAME complaints were made, and nothing happened. Unturned does well with random cosmetic boxes, those skins are far better than the free drops but you don't need anything from them, they only serve to keep Nelson alive & coding. CS:GO apparently has the same setup, everyone loves it.

I am against WoW being B2P + Subscription AND having a cash shop on top of it, hence why I've never played it. Unturned is F2P from a small developer. It isn't a large studio with multiple revenue sources on three major platforms. CS:GO also has a $15 price point, skins can drop directly, and you can buy what you want directly from the Steam marketplace without having to gamble.

Troneon

Birdovic

Troneon wrote: »

Not a single word was spoken nor written and still, the message was delivered.

Abeille

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

What you saw on PTS a few months ago was essentially all the items that will be available in this first season's Crown Crate.

So over 3/5 of the things available through the crates will be exclusive to them. Maybe that should be referred to as "most", not as "some", then.

I'm still begging for you to reconsider. I understand that it is too late now (although we have been providing this feedback for months) to remove these exclusives from the crates, but consider releasing them for direct purchase later down the road, maybe while the crates are "off season" and another season is up. Not the themed ones, the themed ones are ok for exclusives. The regular, recolored ones.

Greifenherz

Troneon wrote: »

Don't forget that, if this was like the movie, you'd still have to pay for the sunken ESO...wait...

Recremen

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Olav_the_Stout wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno
Does this mean we will no longer see exclusive items for sale in the crown store that are NOT in crates? I love supporting you guys, but I refuse to gamble.

There will still be Crown Store exclusive items and Limited Time Offers. We'll be publishing the December Crown Store Showcase tomorrow, so you'll be able to see the upcoming items available through the Crown Store.

lordrichter wrote: »

Also, food and drink do npt appear to be on the list. Are those utility items?

Yes, food and drink are consumables, so any obtained through Crown Crates can be converted to Crown Gems at any point.

blur wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober

According to the website:
"Each Crown Crate is associated with a special “Season" that will include uniquely themed items, and will be cycled quarterly. We're kicking off the first season of Crown Crates with the electrifying Storm Atronach theme."

So let me see if I understand this correctly, what we had on PTS was more than what you are offering each quarter correct? I remember a red wolf mount, the Frost Horse, various other mounts and costumes that are long gone from the ESO crown store, and new things like wizard hat with glasses. Are these not going to be launched with this "quarter"?

What you saw on PTS a few months ago was essentially all the items that will be available in this first season's Crown Crate.

Are we ever going to get a rationale for why this system went live at all? For why the people in charge are OK with their customers spending money and not actually getting content? For why anyone ever thought a gambling service would be a player-friendly addition to the game?

SG_Celerrimus

@ZOS_GinaBruno How rare, roughly, will the Atronauch mounts be? I fell in love with the wolf one the moment I saw the picture of it, but I am afraid just getting it would require me to dump an absurd amount of money into crowns with the mounts having like a 0.1-1% drop chance, which would just make this entire thing look really unfortunate and cash grabby.

HeroOfNone

@ZOS_GinaBruno will the PTS be updated with these new updates on Thursday as well? I would like to test the new RNG numbers but I do not wish to sink in a lot of my crowns bought with real money to do it.

kamimark

MadLarkin wrote: »

I am against WoW being B2P + Subscription AND having a cash shop on top of it, hence why I've never played it. Unturned is F2P from a small developer. It isn't a large studio with multiple revenue sources on three major platforms. CS:GO also has a $15 price point, skins can drop directly, and you can buy what you want directly from the Steam marketplace without having to gamble.

Whether the skin is gambling-only or bought with cash, it's still just a skin. It makes zero difference to your gameplay.

Sigtric

kamimark wrote: »

MadLarkin wrote: »

I am against WoW being B2P + Subscription AND having a cash shop on top of it, hence why I've never played it. Unturned is F2P from a small developer. It isn't a large studio with multiple revenue sources on three major platforms. CS:GO also has a $15 price point, skins can drop directly, and you can buy what you want directly from the Steam marketplace without having to gamble.

Whether the skin is gambling-only or bought with cash, it's still just a skin. It makes zero difference to your gameplay.

Just because they don't change gameplay doesn't mean people don't put value on them for other reasons.
And they do actually have the possibility of changing gameplay for people who partake in RP.

Recremen

SG_Celerrimus wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno How rare, roughly, will the Atronauch mounts be? I fell in love with the wolf one the moment I saw the picture of it, but I am afraid just getting it would require me to dump an absurd amount of money into crowns with the mounts having like a 0.1-1% drop chance, which would just make this entire thing look really unfortunate and cash grabby.

I don't really understand the anti-cash grab message. It's the purpose of a business to grab cash. It's my opinion that the thing which makes this so heinous is that they're grabbing cash without even giving us a product. If these were available for direct purchase, I'd be shoving money into their hands, but why would I do that on a gamble? I hope people get wise to this behavioral psych scam artistry and fully reject the gambling boxes. I also hope that the opportunity for businesses to conduct themselves this way gets litigated out of existence. If we can't change the behavior of companies then we need to change their environment so that they better meet performance requirements.

Mic1007

And there they are. After the backlash they got for even thinking of creating these things, and yet, here they are... And no new details at all...

Give me a few minutes while I puke...