Official Discussion Thread for Crown Crates

UrQuan

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Thanks to everyone for taking part in testing Crown Crates. Tomorrow after our scheduled maintenance (which includes the PTS), Crown Crates will no longer be available for testing. If you have any Crown Crates in your inventory after the maintenance tomorrow, you will still be able to open them, but no new Crown Crates can be purchased. Additionally, when you run out of Crown Crates, the UI to open them will also no longer be accessible.

Just a reminder that we do plan on making some changes based on all the feedback we received, which you can read here, before Crown Crates are released later this year.

Edit: Also, just want to confirm that the email some of you received is legit.

I really really hope you make more changes than the ones you've indicated so far. I'd love to be able to keep supporting ESO, but I can't see how I can do that if the game starts including these unethical and predatory crates. Lottery boxes can be done without being predatory! If they're going to be put in the game regardless of how many people tell you they don't want them, please do it in an ethical manner!

JimT722

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Thanks to everyone for taking part in testing Crown Crates. Tomorrow after our scheduled maintenance (which includes the PTS), Crown Crates will no longer be available for testing. If you have any Crown Crates in your inventory after the maintenance tomorrow, you will still be able to open them, but no new Crown Crates can be purchased. Additionally, when you run out of Crown Crates, the UI to open them will also no longer be accessible.

Just a reminder that we do plan on making some changes based on all the feedback we received, which you can read here, before Crown Crates are released later this year.

Edit: Also, just want to confirm that the email some of you received is legit.

Plan on making some of the changes. If you made all of them it still won't be enough. If you change it from a massive ripoff to an incredible one, still a ripoff. I'm not seeing hardly any concerns addressed or even mention as being looked into. I am very disappointed with ZOS right now.

Moloch1514

lordrichter wrote: »

JR_Returns wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

This system is designed to rip us off and it will go way out of control.

You may be correct about ripping us off but it could also be the standard White Elephant effect.
1. Come up with what looks on paper to be a great idea.
2. Roll it out and find it just doesn't work.
3. Tweak it and throw more money at it.
4. Rinse and repeat a few times.
5. You've now spent too much money and you can't to let it fail because you'll look a total tw*t.
6. Spend yet more money and get it sort of working.
7. Call it a sensational success whilst pushing it into a corner to be quietly forgotten.

At my age I've seen this sort of thing happen lots of times. Normally because people haven't got the guts to admit they've made a total f*** up and say stop.

I fear you may have just described the last 30 months of ESO...

aheck1111_ESO wrote: »

And so it begins. Not even a mention of the many concerns raised in this thread or the mega thread on General Discussion forum.

You expected otherwise?

Nah, I expected exactly this, but I hoped otherwise! Only a fool's hope

wayfarerx

UrQuan wrote: »

Lottery boxes can be done without being predatory!

Quoted for emphasis. Even with the extremely minor tweaks that have been proposed, these boxes are a literal scam. Even the sketchiest casinos in Vegas publish the odds to their games. That bar is so low it's practically painted on the floor, but the crown crates we've seen have no hope of reaching it.

Publish the drop rates or accept that ZOS is willfully scamming their customers out of their hard-earned money.

Elsonso

wayfarerx wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Lottery boxes can be done without being predatory!

Quoted for emphasis. Even with the extremely minor tweaks that have been proposed, these boxes are a literal scam. Even the sketchiest casinos in Vegas publish the odds to their games. That bar is so low it's practically painted on the floor, but the crown crates we've seen have no hope of reaching it.

Publish the drop rates or accept that ZOS is willfully scamming their customers out of their hard-earned money.

I honestly doubt that ZOS knows what the odds are of getting any particular item.

Even if they tried to post the drop rates, they would be tool tips entered in by some employee, not what was actually used in the game. They can't get the tool tips for abilities right, what makes people think they would get the drop rates right?

I suspect that the drop rates are going to be changing every couple of weeks as they "tune" it. No way they could keep up with that if they had to update tool tips.

No, "trust us, we know what we are doing" rules the roost at ZOS.

wayfarerx

lordrichter wrote: »

I suspect that the drop rates are going to be changing every couple of weeks as they "tune" it. No way they could keep up with that if they had to update tool tips.

They are absolutely going to be doing this which is exactly why they need to publish the odds. What if a casino "tuned" the number of aces in their blackjack decks? What would we call those guys?

Scam artists or criminals, but around these parts it's called "electronic entertainment monetization" or whatever.

JimT722

wayfarerx wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

I suspect that the drop rates are going to be changing every couple of weeks as they "tune" it. No way they could keep up with that if they had to update tool tips.

They are absolutely going to be doing this which is exactly why they need to publish the odds. What if a casino "tuned" the number of aces in their blackjack decks? What would we call those guys?

Scam artists or criminals, but around these parts it's called "electronic entertainment monetization" or whatever.

I think they know these are a failure. The videos and theads of people showing what they got for their boxes paints an ugly picture. That's likely why they are taking them off the pts. However, I suspect we won't see them again until they are on live server with slight improvements. Very slight. They will reassure us that they are much improved though. I can't believe ZOS is going here.

End this madness. Scrap the crates and restore what's left of your dignity.

silvereyes

Between how cheap the game has gotten and the addition of microtransactions with the scamboxes, I wouldn't be surprised if they go fully F2P with update 13.

Prepare to get popup ads every time you log in.

nimander99

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys! Thanks to everyone for taking part in testing Crown Crates. Tomorrow after our scheduled maintenance (which includes the PTS), Crown Crates will no longer be available for testing. If you have any Crown Crates in your inventory after the maintenance tomorrow, you will still be able to open them, but no new Crown Crates can be purchased. Additionally, when you run out of Crown Crates, the UI to open them will also no longer be accessible.

Just a reminder that we do plan on making some changes based on all the feedback we received, which you can read here, before Crown Crates are released later this year.

Edit: Also, just want to confirm that the email some of you received is legit.

Sad, what a joke this has all turned out to be... 300 to 600 dollars for a top tier cosmetic.

When I entered into the business world one of the first lessons taught to me was that every transaction, to be good business, must be based on a fair outcome for both seller and buyer.

This is a one sided system that benefits only Zenimax investors and employees and toxifies our community... And it will toxify our community if the example of every other mmo that introduced gambling systems is a metric.

JimT722

silvereyes wrote: »

Between how cheap the game has gotten and the addition of microtransactions with the scamboxes, I wouldn't be surprised if they go fully F2P with update 13.

Prepare to get popup ads every time you log in.

They did that once. I remember I was playing on PC and they had a text add. I went to the forums and people were furious.


The Boiled Kagouti


It is said that if a kagouti steps into a boiling pool, he will leap out immediately to avoid harm.

But if the kagouti is standing in a pool, and a wizard slowly raises the temperature, measure by measure, to boiling, the kagouti will calmly stand in place until he is boiled.

Thus we see that we must be alert not only to the obvious danger, but also to the subtle degrees by which change may result in danger.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

JimT722 wrote: »

They did that once. I remember I was playing on PC and they had a text add. I went to the forums and people were furious.

Naturally we were. Not only was it obnoxious, it played something like four times in a row in different languages. -_-

cjthibs

wayfarerx wrote: »

Scam artists or criminals, but around these parts it's called "electronic entertainment monetization" or whatever.

"Micro-transaction strategy" and "behavioral targeting," actually. It's why they hired someone with a degree in psychology to run it.

Nazarousb14_ESO

In most games that have the purchasable loot boxes they typically give members an intensive daily box for paying the monthly subscription.

Thread is to long to read all the feed back, so this may have been mentioned before.

Cousin_Idirfa

silvereyes wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

So yet another lie from you ZOS? All you did other then bring the consumables closer to P2W was graphical and voice changes. Non the promised drop rate changes, not the promised ability to turn in consumables for gems, and not the better in game recipes.

I agree that it would have been nice to get the changes on PTS for testing this week, but they never promised they would be in this week. In fact, Matt F specifically expressed doubt in the reddit AMA that the changes would be on the PTS.

I can't really defend ZOS against anything with these scamboxes, but as a software developer myself, I will defend them against the general idea that they can make changes instantaneously. Gina just announced the planned changes last Friday. Implementing a trade-in system for gems, or even "just" tweaking drop rates, is something that will take a week or two at best. Not just for the development, but also for internal testing and probably about 2-3 levels of business-level manager approval, since this will affect the profitability of the crates.

It's unfortunate, but it's just the way it is. It's a shame they waited 2 weeks to introduce the crates on PTS. If they hadn't, there's a chance they would have had time for a round of major feedback-related changes. But as the situation stands, there just isn't any time.

This is understandable. But isn't it disconcerting that the one change they had in the chamber ready to pull the trigger on was increasing the strength of the consumables, a change that inches closer to P2W? Shows their commitment to this travesty. I fear that even if players boycott these crates and they don't sell, the devs won't get rid of them, rather they will try to improve the goods in the crates. I hope it's not the case. I hope that when the gambling crates go live, Pacrooti will hear only crickets, and ZOS will say, "Huh. I guess players don't want these gambling crates." What they'll probably say is, "Huh. We better put some mounts with extra speed or carrying capacity in there. Or maybe cosmetic crossbows with +10 sniping. Or maybe a dragonhead jetpack propelled by shooting flames out the nostrils. Or Storm Atronach Jet Skis that can jump slaughterfish." Just as there's no ceiling to the amount of money players can spend trying to acquire the items in the gambling crates, there's no ceiling to the absurdity of the developer's commitment to them.

likelolwhat

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

They did that once. I remember I was playing on PC and they had a text add. I went to the forums and people were furious.

Naturally we were. Not only was it obnoxious, it played something like four times in a row in different languages. -_-

Wait what?! When was this? O______o

OT - Naturally I missed the bandwagon, so I have little to add but this: I love this game and I probably won't unsubscribe any time soon, but please, ZOS, you're scaring the s**t out of me with how you respond your your player base. It's sad that I continue to pay despite how you treat us, but I guess that's my problem.

It's not even the idea of the Crown Crates themselves (we all knew it was coming, right? right.), it's that they stink of cash grab and exploitation. Hopefully by the time they actually come out (and they will) they will stink a bit less, but I cannot help but despair that it will be a case of spraying a corpse with perfume.

Mojmir

Here what I think.....

manavortex

Something I would like to know is why they didn't throw this idea out to us in a poll on the forums to get our thoughts before they even began working on it. This is a very large change in their marketing system of items to us, and it would have been nice if we could have given them our feelings before they even started it instead of when it makes its first PTS debut

I have once decided to not assume malice if ignorance or lack of thought is another valid explanation. But I have a hard time doing this here. I think they must have anticipated our feedback.

But isn't it disconcerting that the one change they had in the chamber ready to pull the trigger on was increasing the strength of the consumables, a change that inches closer to P2W? Shows their commitment to this travesty.

Consequence means walking even the wrong track to the bitter end.

Seriously, I think they are planning that "Housing" will be the thing that gets people to buy Crown Crates.

Housing. I bet that will be great on the pts too. Then it will be sliced up and put into rng box system as well.

Has it been confirmed that housing will be linked to the gambling crates? I'm still hoping it will be made available as an ingame gold sink.

It has not been confirmed, but at this point I don't trust ZOS about this anymore.

but please, ZOS, you're scaring the s**t out of me with how you respond your your player base. It's sad that I continue to pay despite how you treat us, but I guess that's my problem.

I really want to like this company. I feel a bit like I'm struggling with Stockholm Syndrome here. I'm emotional about that, and I'm on the autistic spectrum, and the emotions that I feel are not the fuzzy good kind of emotions that I used to associate with ESO six months ago.

Gina Bruno wrote:

Just a reminder that we do plan on making some changes based on all the feedback we received, which you can read here, before Crown Crates are released later this year.

The sad fact is that they *will* be implemented on live. I'd love to fantasize that ZOS will see all the negative feedback and scrap the whole idea, but it's not going to happen.

However, I suspect we won't see them again until they are on live server with slight improvements. Very slight. They will reassure us that they are much improved though. I can't believe ZOS is going here.

This is me right now:

Rosveen

likelolwhat wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

They did that once. I remember I was playing on PC and they had a text add. I went to the forums and people were furious.

Naturally we were. Not only was it obnoxious, it played something like four times in a row in different languages. -_-

Wait what?! When was this? O______o

At the very beginning, crown store messages were displayed ingame as system messages. You know, the ones reserved for important info like servers going down. The ones we shouldn't be conditioned to ignore because they suddenly turn into marketing spam.

Metafae

I like the idea of the crates. I think they're awesome. I see myself occasionally opening one from time to time. Here are a few ideas to make the system better though:

• Achievement points in game should give you some crown gems per X amount of achievement points.
• Alternatively, achievement points should maybe unlock a crown crate per X amount.
• The price of the crown crate is a little bit too high. I would be reluctant to buy them much if at all when they're added to live if they stay at 400 crowns per crate. If they were cheaper it would trick my brain into thinking it was ok to get one here and there, and not really pay attention to the total amount I had spent on them.
• Maybe adding some way to convert your in-game gold and alliance points into crown gems. This could be interesting as a gold sink.
• Maybe have crown crates drop rarely in rewards for the worthy / boss loot. I feel that it should be accessible to players who haven't got much money to spend, so we can all join in on the fun.

Merlight

Speaking of achievements, are there achievements (and appropriate titles; any ideas?) for opening 10/50/100 crown crates? Would be something to work towards, right?

Universe

WhiteCoatSyndrome

likelolwhat wrote: »

Wait what?! When was this? O______o

@likelolwhat That was when they released the limited-time leopard senche (the first time). 'We don't want anyone to miss the limited time offer!' was the reason given. -_- And as @Rosveen mentioned, yes they used the system shutdown messaging system to spam us.

Reykice

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:

• We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.
• We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.
  
• We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

VERY slippery slope. If you make it like the ambrosia with rare materials players will have to work hard to get... as opposed to how it is now when every provisioner can make the best food with easy to get ingredients.

Maybe just make the crown ones similar to the crafted ones but please don`t add a system and recipes that have a single purpose: to make the crown ones more desirable vs crafted ones, nobody wants that. Foods/drinks are like a permanent buff now, don`t make them harder to make, everyone likes them easily available, gathering herbs is hard enough.

Reykice

Hymzir wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:

• We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.
• We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.
• We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

The second is that the gems you get from converted cards must be at least half of what it is listed for in the store. So a card that costs 16 gems must be convertable to 8 gems. A card that costs 100 gems must be redeemable for at least 50 gems. That way, when you get a card you don't want, but want a card of similar rarity, you at least got half of that card. And that is almost palatable.

More like the full price... why cheat people into getting the same thing 10 times and only getting 50% or less for it...

I think what most want is to never have to pay more than say 5.000 crowns for a mount. Ever. Makes sense considering a DLC is much less.

Also maybe no exclusive items? Crates should be OPTIONAL as in you can just buy the stuff, forcing people like me who will buy a mount but will never ever touch the crates unless i find it reasonably priced(aka a mount is never more than 4-5k) to use the crates will only result in people leaving the game.

Gambling should be left for casinos not dressed up all nice and made to look harmless.

Elsonso

Reykice wrote: »

VERY slippery slope. If you make it like the ambrosia with rare materials players will have to work hard to get... as opposed to how it is now when every provisioner can make the best food with easy to get ingredients.

Maybe just make the crown ones similar to the crafted ones but please don`t add a system and recipes that have a single purpose: to make the crown ones more desirable vs crafted ones, nobody wants that. Foods/drinks are like a permanent buff now, don`t make them harder to make, everyone likes them easily available, gathering herbs is hard enough.

Since the Bethesda marketing person only joined the party this year, I have to wonder what she thinks of this "crafted is better" theory. I have to wonder if her advice to ZOS is that the Crown Store will never work as long as they insist on doing that. That, in turn, makes me wonder how much such an opinion from Bethesda will erode the gap until the crafted is only better when looked at from the right angle, under the right light, so that we can fool ourselves into thinking it is better. Meanwhile, Bethesda Marketing has won the war and is now free to monetize the game as necessary with attractive, and better, items in the store.

It is all part of the thought that I have regarding who made these Crown Crates. I lump it under "ZOS", but really, I have to wonder if all the Crown Store stuff is funded by Bethesda separately. It might be funded from Bethesda's marketing budget and ZOS really has little to do with it aside from technical implementation, if even that. Bethesda certainly has access to talent of their own that can work on stuff like this. It would explain why even Firor sounds like he is just reading off a spec sheet when he talks about Crown Crates, and why Crown Crates have so much more polish and finish than what ZOS normally does.

Lumenn

Reykice wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone, here’s where we are with Crown Crates:

We put systems on the PTS for player feedback for a reason – we have sifted (and continue to analyze) your feedback on Crown Crates, and as such, we’re going to make at least the following changes to the system before it goes live later this year:

• We are working to change the way the system works to ensure that you get higher tiered items more often.
• We will allow you to convert unwanted Crown Crate consumables into Crown Gems. This way, you won’t be stuck with consumables you may not want, and you will also have more Gems to purchase the items that you do want.
• We will also take another look at Crown Crate potions, food, XP scrolls, etc. with an eye towards boosting their effectiveness and/or duration. This may entail us adding new recipes to allow crafters to make similar items.

We may well find other changes we want to make as well, and will let everyone know what we have done when this initial round of changes are in and can test them internally.

The second is that the gems you get from converted cards must be at least half of what it is listed for in the store. So a card that costs 16 gems must be convertable to 8 gems. A card that costs 100 gems must be redeemable for at least 50 gems. That way, when you get a card you don't want, but want a card of similar rarity, you at least got half of that card. And that is almost palatable.

More like the full price... why cheat people into getting the same thing 10 times and only getting 50% or less for it...

I think what most want is to never have to pay more than say 5.000 crowns for a mount. Ever. Makes sense considering a DLC is much less.

Also maybe no exclusive items? Crates should be OPTIONAL as in you can just buy the stuff, forcing people like me who will buy a mount but will never ever touch the crates unless i find it reasonably priced(aka a mount is never more than 4-5k) to use the crates will only result in people leaving the game.

Gambling should be left for casinos not dressed up all nice and made to look harmless.

I agree. Buy a mount for 4k outright OR try your luck with the 400 crown crate. With Zos rng in play I'm not wasting a dime on them. Since you can, by its very nature, lose EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU GAMBLE, and any forum search on rng will net you YEARS of complaints, questions, bugs, etc. Nope. You honestly can't make a name for yourself for horrible rng and then expect everyone to just accept it when you say you'll improve a drop rate for a cash cow.

Lumenn

lordrichter wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

VERY slippery slope. If you make it like the ambrosia with rare materials players will have to work hard to get... as opposed to how it is now when every provisioner can make the best food with easy to get ingredients.

Maybe just make the crown ones similar to the crafted ones but please don`t add a system and recipes that have a single purpose: to make the crown ones more desirable vs crafted ones, nobody wants that. Foods/drinks are like a permanent buff now, don`t make them harder to make, everyone likes them easily available, gathering herbs is hard enough.

Since the Bethesda marketing person only joined the party this year, I have to wonder what she thinks of this "crafted is better" theory. I have to wonder if her advice to ZOS is that the Crown Store will never work as long as they insist on doing that. That, in turn, makes me wonder how much such an opinion from Bethesda will erode the gap until the crafted is only better when looked at from the right angle, under the right light, so that we can fool ourselves into thinking it is better. Meanwhile, Bethesda Marketing has won the war and is now free to monetize the game as necessary with attractive, and better, items in the store.

It is all part of the thought that I have regarding who made these Crown Crates. I lump it under "ZOS", but really, I have to wonder if all the Crown Store stuff is funded by Bethesda separately. It might be funded from Bethesda's marketing budget and ZOS really has little to do with it aside from technical implementation, if even that. Bethesda certainly has access to talent of their own that can work on stuff like this. It would explain why even Firor sounds like he is just reading off a spec sheet when he talks about Crown Crates, and why Crown Crates have so much more polish and finish than what ZOS normally does.

Plenty of ways to go about it and still technically not "lie". First thought is simply lower the drop rates of any mat, (perfect roe, any new recipe etc) so that in game consumables "are" better, but you actually have a better chance of getting crown crate items(mats, gear, consumables) than in game mats.

MissBizz

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

likelolwhat wrote: »

Wait what?! When was this? O______o

@likelolwhat That was when they released the limited-time leopard senche (the first time). 'We don't want anyone to miss the limited time offer!' was the reason given. -_- And as @Rosveen mentioned, yes they used the system shutdown messaging system to spam us.

They also felt that using the server messaging was the appropriate way to inform us it was national pet day.

JimT722

MissBizz wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

likelolwhat wrote: »

Wait what?! When was this? O______o

@likelolwhat That was when they released the limited-time leopard senche (the first time). 'We don't want anyone to miss the limited time offer!' was the reason given. -_- And as @Rosveen mentioned, yes they used the system shutdown messaging system to spam us.

They also felt that using the server messaging was the appropriate way to inform us it was national pet day.

Yeah that was interesting, forgot about that one

cjthibs

MissBizz wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

likelolwhat wrote: »

Wait what?! When was this? O______o

@likelolwhat That was when they released the limited-time leopard senche (the first time). 'We don't want anyone to miss the limited time offer!' was the reason given. -_- And as @Rosveen mentioned, yes they used the system shutdown messaging system to spam us.

They also felt that using the server messaging was the appropriate way to inform us it was national pet day.

Yeah. I don't think we should get too bent out of shape over a line or two of text from a year ago that they did stop doing as far as I know.

The points you raised about exclusivity and not being able to test out the new drop rates are far more important.