Spending Undaunted Keys on the Update 12 PTS - Training, Prosperous, and no Impenetrable

code65536

With our NA characters about to be wiped in a matter of hours, it was time for yet another PTS key spree.



I spent a total of 500 keys for this test:

• 200 keys spent on Maj's chest (12 sets)
  • Blood Spawn: 15
  • Chokethorn: 21
  • Engine Guardian: 14
  • Kra'gh: 21
  • Maw of the Infernal: 21
  • Nightflame: 13
  • Scourge Harvester: 21
  • Sentinel of Rkugamz: 20
  • Shadowrend: 14
  • Slimecraw: 16
  • Spawn of Mephala: 14
  • Swarm Mother: 10
  • Motif Chapters: 36 (18%)
• 200 keys spent on Glirion's chest (12 sets)
  • Grothdarr: 16
  • Iceheart: 12
  • Ilambris: 13
  • Infernal Guardian: 12
  • Nerien'eth: 17
  • Pirate Skeleton: 20
  • Selene: 17
  • Sellistrix: 17
  • Stormfist: 21
  • The Troll King: 17
  • Tremorscale: 17
  • Valkyn Skoria: 21
  • Motif Chapters: 34 (17%)
• 100 keys spent on Urgarlag's chest (4 sets, all DLC)
  • Lord Warden: 29
  • Mighty Chudan: 23
  • Molag Kena: 26
  • Velidreth: 22
  • Motif Chapters: 23 (23%)

Weights:

• Heavy: 180
• Light: 156
• Medium: 164

Traits:

• Divines: 78
• Impenetrable: 0
• Infused: 63
• Prosperous: 56
• Reinforced: 77
• Sturdy: 82
• Training: 70
• Well-Fitted: 74

Yes, Prosperous and Training are still in the loot table.
No, Impenetrable has not been restored.
Yes, you can open Urgarlag's DLC chest even if you don't own any DLCs. (verified using an alt account that had no DLCs unlocked)

code65536

Some general feedback:

• The chests still retain their old small/medium/large appearance, even though the old Bronze/Silver/Gold system is gone. Since the chests are supposed to be equals, they should look the same. Or at least they shouldn't look like they have a hierarchy of quality when such a hierarchy does not exist.
• Why are our keys still unbankable? Now that Veteran ranks have been removed, the only time where it would be an advantage for a different character to open the key is if the key was earned by a character between levels 45 and 49--once they reach level 50, they will receive the exact same chest scaling as other level 50 characters on that account. That's a very narrow window that most people level through within a few hours or a few days. For people with many characters, removing the bankability restriction would be a nice quality-of-life improvement.
• I observed a higher motif drop rate from Urgarlag's chest, though it's hard to say whether it's just luck or if it's something worth investigating.
• And last, but definitely not least, why is Impenetrable still missing from the loot table? This has been a serious regression since Update 10, and we were promised that Impenetrable would be brought back for dungeon drops in Update 12. If the concern is that adding Impenetrable would dilute the trait table too much, then there's a very simple solution that everyone would support: drop Prosperous. Impenetrable is better than Prosperous for gold grinding anyway. People have been calling for Impenetrable to be restored as soon as it went missing in the Update 10 PTS. How many PTS cycles worth of feedback is it going to take to reverse this grievous mistake?

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn

Curragraigue

Agree drop Prosperous and Training and give us Impenetrable instead. I thought we already had confirmation this is what was happening for Update 12.

altemriel

I still can not understand, why at all are the prosperous and training in the loot tables for vet characters!!

They should be there for bellow-vet characters maybe, but for veterans? Why????


ZOS please remove them and add impenetrable and infused/divines instead!!!

@ZOS_GinaBruno

RoyJade

Undauted shoulder are endgame stuff, they shouldn't have "low level" trait like training and prosperous. How many time we have to say that ? Training and prosperous should NOT be in the loot table for Undauted shoulder (nor in the dungeon loot table).

Impenetrable is a really useful trait for pvp, and a lot of Undauted set are good for pvp. Why some of the best set in the game are nearly excluded from one important part of the game ? Impenetrable definitively should be in the loot table for monster shoulders.

@ZOS, please, listen to this feedback. We don't like grinding for good trait, but it's even worse when bad trait take the place of a good one. At least, remove prosperous or training for impenetrable.


And by the way, thanks @code65536 for this test !

altemriel

RoyJade wrote: »

Undauted shoulder are endgame stuff, they shouldn't have "low level" trait like training and prosperous. How many time we have to say that ? Training and prosperous should NOT be in the loot table for Undauted shoulder (nor in the dungeon loot table).

Impenetrable is a really useful trait for pvp, and a lot of Undauted set are good for pvp. Why some of the best set in the game are nearly excluded from one important part of the game ? Impenetrable definitively should be in the loot table for monster shoulders.

@ZOS, please, listen to this feedback. We don't like grinding for good trait, but it's even worse when bad trait take the place of a good one. At least, remove prosperous or training for impenetrable.


And by the way, thanks @code65536 for this test !

this!!


@ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_RichLambert

IxSTALKERxI

Can I has some keys?

Derra

Really?

phreatophile

Prosperous and training need to be removed and Impenetrable restored from any named set.

However, I'm pretty sure that it was only a confirmed change for trials not dungeons.

code65536

phreatophile wrote: »

However, I'm pretty sure that it was only a confirmed change for trials not dungeons.

Their promise was that they would restore Impenetrable for overland and dungeons, while the scrubbing of Training and Prosperous was for trials. Ideally, I'd like replacing Prosperous with Impenetrable, but even just restoring Impenetrable without removing another trait would be a step in the right direction.

redspecter23

I would love to sit down and have a one on one conversation with ZoS and find out their logic behind training and prosperous. The majority of players don't seem to want it at all, yet here we are still having to deal with it on our loot tables. Aside from annoyance, what is the reason they still exist on endgame gear? I was under the impression that annoying your playerbase was a bad thing when you can simply choose to just not do that instead.

IxskullzxI

Wow.. I hope this gets fixed before live. Why is it such a struggle for ZoS to give us impen on our gear?

Asardes

When I hit VR16 on my main char from the live server in mid January I had saved ~40 gold and ~50 silver keys, in a bit under two months of daily pledges - gold were a little less because I didn't own IC back then and I also failed VCOA 3 times from VR4-VR10. I opened them all and got so many set pieces I had to make a bank char. I remember impenetrable was in the loot table back then and I still have multiple pieces with that trait. Probably they removed it in order to force people to buy from the Khajiit merchant in Cyrodiil, as gold & AP sink. Don't know how effective it is.

Prosperous trait is really annoying though. I've been getting it a lot both in undaunted chests and in dungeon sets. I've got runs in VWGT and VICP where literally all armor pieces that dropped were just training and prosperous with a sprinkle of well fitted and sturdy. And SotH is no better. At least you get back "charcoal of remorse" style material - appropriately name, for all the time wasted getting the pieces - from the IC sets when you deconstruct them; no such materials from the SotH sets though.

RNG is a massive source of frustration in this game. As a result I've given up running content specifically for farming purposes and I'm just running dungeons when they are for the daily pledge and just be happy when the right piece drops. Seeing that there are no changes for the better in the new patch, like suppressing certain traits for end game sets, I will not even be saving the keys and I will probably give up doing the pledges altogether on my main and just run them on my alts for undaunted skill progression. Separating the sets in 3 chests is a step in the right direction. I would like to see another change though to take away some of the RNG - increase the chance of getting the shoulder piece matching the head from current pledge, at least in the first chest you open. For example when VWGT is the current pledge increase the chance of getting Molag Kena shoulder piece when you open the DLC chest.

Derra

This patch introduces new best in slot gear for most classes/builds with the new undaunted, overland and dungeon sets. While this is not the place to discuss if bis pvp gear should drop in dungeons or not - IF it does (which is the case in one tamriel) it should drop with the best in slot trait for pvp - that one being impenetrable.

It should not even be necessary to argue about this. The new gear has to drop in impenetrable aswell. A trader on weekends selling random rewards is NOT enough.

arkansas_ESO

This was the biggest reason I was excited for U12, and the entire reason I've been saving my keys. If this is intended by ZOS, then it's really, really disappointing, and I'm not really willing to sit around and wait another patch cycle (3 months) for them to maybe fix this.

Asardes

Many of the skills you need in PvP - armor, weapon, class - are best honed and unlocked trough PvE progression, especially getting the skill points in quests and the skyshards in the alliance zones; undaunted and mages' guild are exclusively PvE. At the same time a lot of the Alliance War skills that can be only gained by actually going against other players are extremely useful for PvE as well. War horn, barrier, vigor, caltrops, detonation, purge make running PvE content much easier; war horn is practically a must for harder PvE content like DLC dungeons and trials and it's very difficult to run VMA on a stamina build without vigor. So I really see no basis to the complaints that you need to do PvE in order to get the best PvP gear.

IMO there's an artificial separation between the "PvP-ers" and the "PvE-ers". Most people will run both and will actually be good at PvP if they are good at PvE in the first place. I've seen people with pratetorian and even warlord crests in dungeons and I've seen flawless conquerors and shehai shatterers in Cyrodiil. And I've seen yet many more with Velidreth set and got killed by it a few times.

Lumbermill_Emperor

FYI

TRAINING IS NOT LOW LEVEL TRAIT!

im glad i can grind in monster stets with training trait

Ghost-Shot

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

FYI

TRAINING IS NOT LOW LEVEL TRAIT!

im glad i can grind in monster stets with training trait

It's not an end game trait, has no place on end game gear.

Lumbermill_Emperor

@Ghost-Shot
if you didnt grind its not mean other people too

its end game gear and TRAINING IS ENDGAME TRAIT FOR GRINDERS

/end of discussion

Ghost-Shot

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@Ghost-Shot
if you didnt grind its not mean other people too

its end game gear and TRAINING IS ENDGAME TRAIT FOR GRINDERS

/end of discussion

If you are at end game, there is no point to it.

/end of discussion

Dubhliam

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We have an update for you. We will be making the following changes to Trait attainability with the launch of Update 12:

• Prosperous and Training will be removed as a valid Trait for all items that drop in Trials
• Valid Traits for Trials and Leaderboard rewards are as follows:
  • Weapons – Infused, Powered, Precise, Defending, Sharpened, Charged, Decisive
  • Armor – Infused, Divines, Well-Fitted, Reinforced, Sturdy
• Items drops in the overland and in dungeons will have a chance of dropping with all available Traits, including Impenetrable

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts with us on this subject. We appreciate how constructive this discussion has been, and the ideas shared.

This is what they said.
No more, no less.

Impenetrable Monster sets can still be obtained via the Golden vendor in Cyrodiil.

Lumbermill_Emperor

@Ghost-Shot
you are pretend to be dumb?
if no, please read again what training trait do

and turn on your mind and think how it affect CP grinding

Ghost-Shot

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@Ghost-Shot
you are pretend to be dumb?
if no, please read again what training trait do

and turn on your mind and think how it affect CP grinding

If you need to grind CP you aren't at end game.

SleepyTroll

Remove *** trait prosperous(you end game grinder keep your training?) and give impen.

Synozeer

They mentioned on ESO LIve that one of the reasons they didn't/don't add Impen to the loot tables is that they don't want PvPers to feel like they have to PvE to get BiS (since if you can't wear impen, you're gimping yourself).

However, that theory goes out the window when you have jewelry and weapons for all sets. You can now run a 5 piece without wearing a single piece of armor, thus avoiding the limitation of not running impen, meaning PvPers need these sets. As a result, there's no reason not to have Impen, and like the majority of the vocal population has said, no need for Prosperous and Training on end game gear.

Asardes

You can get good experience by grinding alone, in blue outdated training gear; or even better doing quests on alts in veteran areas. Just go to a "gold" area and burn the mobs here, grabbing books/sky shards and doing the quests there along the way. I've been running my alts trough those zones in level 44 blue gear and the CP160 enemies are still melting like butter, even the public dungeon and overland bosses. I've always found traditional grinding boring beyond belief, but I've still been able to reach the CP cap in exactly 6 months after I reached veteran rank on my 1st char, just by doing the normal game content, and lots of random dungeons with PuGs after they were introduced in TG. Not to mention grinding doesn't teach you how to play. Most likely you will end up just like a lot of people I've been seeing in dungeons - a CP400+ noob DD who imagines he can just ignore those flesh grenades on the floor, or it's not his job to pick up the pinion or more generally has the same crappy rotation that barely tickles the trash in harder dungeons, because it the same rotation that got burned into his circuitry while mindlessly running endless laps in IC sewers or Wrothgar public dungeons.

The moral of the story: Don't grind, it's dumb; and if you do, you certainly don't need BiS gear to do it.

Lumbermill_Emperor

@Ghost-Shot
ok, so i agreed training trait need to be removed from loot IF YOU REACHed CP limit

Dubhliam

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@Ghost-Shot
ok, so i agreed training trait need to be removed from loot IF YOU REACHed CP limit

CP limit is 3600.

Just because you hit the current (spending) limit does not mean you stop earning CP.

Ghost-Shot

Dubhliam wrote: »

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@Ghost-Shot
ok, so i agreed training trait need to be removed from loot IF YOU REACHed CP limit

CP limit is 3600.

Just because you hit the current (spending) limit does not mean you stop earning CP.

So we should all get screwed with *** drops because you want to earn CP you will likely never be able to use? I don't grind and I don't use a single piece of training gear and I have 730 CP, training should stay on crafted gear and trash items.

John_1999

there are 28 monster sets now, shoulder and helmet.

so if you want one specific item in impen you have to wait (worst case) 56 weeks, before it is in the pvp vendor, that's more than one year.

Lumbermill_Emperor

@Ghost-Shot i dont care what cp rank you have

my time is matter
and if you spent for example 30 days to grind to 730 with your non-training gear
i spent 20

simple, if you can to think

play as you like
if you prefer *** questing or lagging pvp or other things to earn 730 CP in a year
i prefer to reach 730 cp in 20 days