Spending Undaunted Keys on the Update 12 PTS - Training, Prosperous, and no Impenetrable

arkansas_ESO

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

No, Impenetrable has not been restored.

Impen on monster mask sets isn't in yet. Should make the next PTS build. (not tomorrow's, but the one after)

Awesome, thanks for the response! Is Prosperous and Training staying in the loot table, or are those going as well?

Dagoth_Rac

Please add Divines to golden vendor. There are now 2 ways to get BiS PvP monster gear (grinding or vendor) but only 1 way to get BiS PvE monster gear (grinding). And with 12 sets in each chest, that is 12 sets * 3 weights * 8 traits = 288 possibilities from the Maj and Glirion chests. Which means if you are looking for a particular set/weight/trait, 287 times out of 288, you will not get it. Which means (287 / 288) ^ 288 = 36.7%. So after 288 keys, more than 1 in 3 players will still not get the set/weight/trait they want. This applies just as much to PvE players looking for Divines as PvP players looking for Impenetrable. That is just brutal. Obviously, it is much better than all sets in one chest, but it is still going to be a miserable, horrible grind.

But at least PvP players know that if the piece shows up at golden vendor, it will be BiS. Please do the same for PvE players.

Recremen

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

No, Impenetrable has not been restored.

Impen on monster mask sets isn't in yet. Should make the next PTS build. (not tomorrow's, but the one after)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqWRaAF6_WY

Dubhliam

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Please add Divines to golden vendor. There are now 2 ways to get BiS PvP monster gear (grinding or vendor) but only 1 way to get BiS PvE monster gear (grinding). And with 12 sets in each chest, that is 12 sets * 3 weights * 8 traits = 288 possibilities from the Maj and Glirion chests. Which means if you are looking for a particular set/weight/trait, 287 times out of 288, you will not get it. Which means (287 / 288) ^ 288 = 36.7%. So after 288 keys, more than 1 in 3 players will still not get the set/weight/trait they want. This applies just as much to PvE players looking for Divines as PvP players looking for Impenetrable. That is just brutal. Obviously, it is much better than all sets in one chest, but it is still going to be a miserable, horrible grind.

But at least PvP players know that if the piece shows up at golden vendor, it will be BiS. Please do the same for PvE players.

This right here is why I was (semi) opposing the addition of impenetrable to the Undaunted coffers.

Brace yourselves, entitlement threads are coming!

Recremen

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Please add Divines to golden vendor. There are now 2 ways to get BiS PvP monster gear (grinding or vendor) but only 1 way to get BiS PvE monster gear (grinding). And with 12 sets in each chest, that is 12 sets * 3 weights * 8 traits = 288 possibilities from the Maj and Glirion chests. Which means if you are looking for a particular set/weight/trait, 287 times out of 288, you will not get it. Which means (287 / 288) ^ 288 = 36.7%. So after 288 keys, more than 1 in 3 players will still not get the set/weight/trait they want. This applies just as much to PvE players looking for Divines as PvP players looking for Impenetrable. That is just brutal. Obviously, it is much better than all sets in one chest, but it is still going to be a miserable, horrible grind.

But at least PvP players know that if the piece shows up at golden vendor, it will be BiS. Please do the same for PvE players.

Man, I am LOVING that people are breaking out the math for this! Don't forget, this is assuming that all traits, weights, and sets have exactly the same drop chance, but that has not been confirmed!

maxjapank

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

But at least PvP players know that if the piece shows up at golden vendor, it will be BiS. Please do the same for PvE players.

Oh yeah! Pvp players have it made. We will have one shoulder or helm with a perfect trait drop once per week. And if we consider 28 sets, we just might get the one we want 56 weeks down the road. Just like @John_1999 said on the first page.

silky_soft

Great shafting pvp again

Transairion

So you argue that there is a valid reason to grind for monster masks in training? You really argue that anybody will want monster masks in training or hell prosperous? Like literally wanting it and hoping for a drop? Who wants that and for what reason?

Can you argue there's a valid reason to get something like Molag Kena in Reinforced? Or Sturdy? Or Nirnhorned? Or X Y or Z that isn't Divines/Impen/Infused? More than half the traits are "beyond terrible" on any given set, usually because other traits are just flat out the best traits and anything else is inferior. Everything else is "filler loot".


I've got a complete Training Monster set that I searched and spent a long of keys to get: why? Because it's better than some rubbish crafted set, and I'm not a 9-trait crafter yet. Pure and simple, I use it because I want to use it. Why should someone NOT be able to use if they want to?

Seeing this makes me wish once someone reaches the CP cap the game was intelligent enough to exclude traits like Training from said player's loot table.

At this point in time, I could quit the game for one year, return, and still be above the new CP cap.

Usable CP cap =/= total CP cap; you can currently use 531(?) CP... the actual CP cap where you can no longer earn any CP is actually about 3600 CP.

Unless you have 3600 CP, you can still use Training. Now most people won't bother because they can't use anything beyond 531CP, but ZOS has said time and time again that CP cap will keep going up. The CP system still isn't that old, which is why cap has only gone up by 30 or so each time thus far.

You'll be happy with Training once CP cap is raised by 200+, I'd imagine.

Joy_Division

The lack of impen on key gear is 1000% proof that ZoS does not care at all about its PvP community.

helediron

For grinding i can craft a training set. For end-game monster sets training is just filling loot tables with crap. Drop it away, and prosperous too.

Crap RNG and bloated loot tables is not making me to "do the content" - it makes me to skip it.

Niki84

Hey, need a quick info for the EU ^^ is the exchange rate 1 for 1 or did you get 2 new keys for one old gold key?

Rhazmuz

#RemoveProsperous&TrainingFromEndGameLoot2016

Make it trend!

RoyJade

Niki84 wrote: »

Hey, need a quick info for the EU ^^ is the exchange rate 1 for 1 or did you get 2 new keys for one old gold key?

1 for 1, so you don't even need to get gold actually if you want to keep them for the maj.

Niki84

RoyJade wrote: »

Niki84 wrote: »

Hey, need a quick info for the EU ^^ is the exchange rate 1 for 1 or did you get 2 new keys for one old gold key?

1 for 1, so you don't even need to get gold actually if you want to keep them for the maj.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.

PS4_ZeColmeia

Simple man, once you are 30 cp over the current limit, you are good for 3 months. Why would anyone want training gear for your "last time farming" gear? Training is limiting as there is a niche, momentary playstyle for it vs You can pick another trait (other than prosperous) that you can always use in every instance.

Besides if you are telling me that when farming cp you are farming mobs that you need your monster set to do it? Other than jewlery, which can't have propserous or training, you can craft every single piece you need training on. You could literally craft for a 2 set bonus which would match your 1 set bonus on your monster set.

There is literally 0 reason to have these traits on ANY monster set or BoP item. BoE i think is fine, but as a matter of a rule, if it's BoP there should be 0 possiblity to get that as vendor trash.

Asardes

You can just equip that training gear on your char, park it somewhere, and have him whack monsters while you are AFK

Jaronking

Rhazmuz wrote: »

#RemoveProsperous&TrainingFromEndGameLoot2016

Make it trend!

Lol every time a thread pops up that's important and have nothing to do with this you should plug this into the thread.

ginoboehm

Transairion wrote: »

So you argue that there is a valid reason to grind for monster masks in training? You really argue that anybody will want monster masks in training or hell prosperous? Like literally wanting it and hoping for a drop? Who wants that and for what reason?

Can you argue there's a valid reason to get something like Molag Kena in Reinforced? Or Sturdy? Or Nirnhorned? Or X Y or Z that isn't Divines/Impen/Infused? More than half the traits are "beyond terrible" on any given set, usually because other traits are just flat out the best traits and anything else is inferior. Everything else is "filler loot".


I've got a complete Training Monster set that I searched and spent a long of keys to get: why? Because it's better than some rubbish crafted set, and I'm not a 9-trait crafter yet. Pure and simple, I use it because I want to use it. Why should someone NOT be able to use if they want to?

Seeing this makes me wish once someone reaches the CP cap the game was intelligent enough to exclude traits like Training from said player's loot table.

At this point in time, I could quit the game for one year, return, and still be above the new CP cap.

Usable CP cap =/= total CP cap; you can currently use 531(?) CP... the actual CP cap where you can no longer earn any CP is actually about 3600 CP.

Unless you have 3600 CP, you can still use Training. Now most people won't bother because they can't use anything beyond 531CP, but ZOS has said time and time again that CP cap will keep going up. The CP system still isn't that old, which is why cap has only gone up by 30 or so each time thus far.

You'll be happy with Training once CP cap is raised by 200+, I'd imagine.

i can totally see sturdy or reinforced finding a niche i don't get the existence of nirnhorned atm. so you would use your training monster set over divine or infused? although the increased dps could propably outweigh the xp loss? To even argue for a sudden 200cp increase is silly nothing like that was even in the realm of possibility zose implied. Monster sets provide very very vew advantages while grinding and atm i am highly doubting anybody is grinding for them while still not having a divine/infused/impen one (i would say everybody beside a to neclect minority will want a "good" trait before training or prosperous)

SwaminoNowlino

Someone did the math on this but isn't impen better for grinding than prosperous as the gold you gain from prosperous is less than the gold you save from repairs?

Transairion

Besides if you are telling me that when farming cp you are farming mobs that you need your monster set to do it? Other than jewlery, which can't have propserous or training, you can craft every single piece you need training on. You could literally craft for a 2 set bonus which would match your 1 set bonus on your monster set.

You don't "need" any kind of set for anything: Monster Sets are powerful 2-peices, more powerful sets means mobs die faster, faster dying mobs means faster respawn, faster respawn means more efficient mob farming. It's pretty straightforward, and trying to equate a Monster Set to the terrible 2-peice crafted sets (%chance to do a low amount of fire damage, JEE WIZZ BATMAN) doesn't at all add up. And if you can't self-craft, what are you going to do, pay out of the nose for a 9-trait set of Training gear to be efficient?

It's also really hard to craft Training/Prosperous if you remove all the places it can drop.

i can totally see sturdy or reinforced finding a niche i don't get the existence of nirnhorned atm. so you would use your training monster set over divine or infused? although the increased dps could propably outweigh the xp loss? To even argue for a sudden 200cp increase is silly nothing like that was even in the realm of possibility zose implied. Monster sets provide very very vew advantages while grinding and atm i am highly doubting anybody is grinding for them while still not having a divine/infused/impen one (i would say everybody beside a to neclect minority will want a "good" trait before training or prosperous)

Sturdy/Reinforced/Nirnhorned is good on tank builds and tank sets, and that's about it. Any DPS/healer gear that comes in these traits are just as filler/worthless as Training/Prosperous supposedly are. But because they provide a tiny insignifitant combat bonus, people want to ignore that. Divines/Infused is basically the one and only choice for DPS and heals sets, and Impen is the PvP set. Almost every other trait is a "bad drop" on the majority of the game's sets. That's just how it is.

+70% mob experience VS higher dps... yeah I'll take experience when I choose to grind. CP cap has also only been raised ONCE so far, from CP501 to CP531 (correct me if I'm wrong) with CP561 being Update 12's cap. People are clamoring for more usable CP, and it's been said (somewhere, don't have a link sorry) that the initial CP change from 501 to 531 was only 30 points because they were testing the system. So yes I would expect it to go up more than 30CP per year.

No, nobody is probably grinding Vet Dungeons for their first ever Monster Set and are hoping for Training. But they're probably not hoping for anything other than Divines/Infused either, so that's a moot point. Almost all traits are bad compared to those two. That doesn't stop non-Divines dropping in the truckloads and immediately being deconstructed: a Prosperous Kena helm is no more filler than a Reinforced one, since you're going to replace EITHER ONE anyway.

Someone did the math on this but isn't impen better for grinding than prosperous as the gold you gain from prosperous is less than the gold you save from repairs?

If you want to call theorycrafting in Wrothgar (which depending on where you are, has no gold-dropping mobs so Prosperous is non-functional) "doing the math", but that's not a particularly balanced view. Saying Impen is better without actually wearing Prosperous at any point sort of throws that out the window.

Nobody has ever bothered to actually buy/craft a full set and go out farming mobs that actually drop gold to find out. I'm all for buffs, but even this specific it's STILL better than some of the old traits.

phreatophile

Oh, please! If you have any need of a monster set to grind you have some issues. Grinding is so easy it's usually done in broken gear after the first hour and could be done drunk, blindfolded, and unarmed.

Every decon trash trait reduces the chances of getting useful traits by an unacceptable amount. If you couple that with what seems to be a pretty clear bias in drop chance toward prosperous and training your completely useless Skoria with training helm is costing dozens other people something they can actually use. Given ZOS's record of trolling us with junk traits, I feel lucky that end-game sets don't drop in intricate and ornate.

Remove training and prosperous from any BOP item or better yet any set pieces BOE or BOP.

Or even better, add a re-trait system and everybody, even the first to reach the cap with over 3000cp they can't use will be happy. You'll be able to switch that cherry divines or impenetrable helm to a training trait CP machine, and I'll be able to fix the purple temper that just happens to be shaped like a Daedra's head and make it into something I'd wear.

Transairion

phreatophile wrote: »

Every decon trash trait reduces the chances of getting useful traits by an unacceptable amount. If you couple that with what seems to be a pretty clear bias in drop chance toward prosperous and training your completely useless Skoria with training helm is costing dozens other people something they can actually use. Given ZOS's record of trolling us with junk traits, I feel lucky that end-game sets don't drop in intricate and ornate.

Or even better, add a re-trait system and everybody, even the first to reach the cap with over 3000cp they can't use will be happy. You'll be able to switch that cherry divines or impenetrable helm to a training trait CP machine, and I'll be able to fix the purple temper that just happens to be shaped like a Daedra's head and make it into something I'd wear.

The most desirable traits have the lowest droprate for a reason... Zenimax wants you to play the game, play the content... not do a single run then never touch that content again. If they wanted you to have the perfect item right off the bat, you'd just get a token or something and exchange it for whatever you like.

I don't know where this misconception that removing traits somehow will make you get Divines/Infused more often... they had the lowest droprate before these traits, they have the lowest droprate now, they'll have the lowest droprate until they're no longer the best traits pure and simple. The "success" of removing Training/Prosperous will feel meaningingless after your 12th Reinforced Skoria helm, as the other "filler traits" will fill the void. That's what keeps you playing. By all means retrait would be awesome, but again it doesn't help ZOS milk your playtime if you do a Dungeon once, get a bad helm, then retrait it into the best helm and never do the content again.


Honestly I'm getting a little concerned how ungrateful some people are... you do know Update 12 you will get a Monster Helm 100% of the time when you do a Veteran Dungeon, right? Shoulders will be 100% as well, there will no be no Bronze/Silver keys only generic 100% drop keys.

Getting a bad trait every so often is way better than what we had before: spend 100 keys, get 7 shoulders, 5 of which are Reinforced. Hardly encouraging. I'm no ancient veteran, but what we're getting is amazing. And yes, I STILL only have gotten a single Skoria helm drop and it was Prosperous, and I've done a LOT of City of Ash.

Asardes

Yesterday I got only training and prosperous gear drop in VCoS. But when I opened the undaunted chest a divines medium Velidreth shoulder dropped

Moglijuana

code65536 wrote: »

Some general feedback:

• The chests still retain their old small/medium/large appearance, even though the old Bronze/Silver/Gold system is gone. Since the chests are supposed to be equals, they should look the same. Or at least they shouldn't look like they have a hierarchy of quality when such a hierarchy does not exist.
• Why are our keys still unbankable? Now that Veteran ranks have been removed, the only time where it would be an advantage for a different character to open the key is if the key was earned by a character between levels 45 and 49--once they reach level 50, they will receive the exact same chest scaling as other level 50 characters on that account. That's a very narrow window that most people level through within a few hours or a few days. For people with many characters, removing the bankability restriction would be a nice quality-of-life improvement.
• I observed a higher motif drop rate from Urgarlag's chest, though it's hard to say whether it's just luck or if it's something worth investigating.
• And last, but definitely not least, why is Impenetrable still missing from the loot table? This has been a serious regression since Update 10, and we were promised that Impenetrable would be brought back for dungeon drops in Update 12. If the concern is that adding Impenetrable would dilute the trait table too much, then there's a very simple solution that everyone would support: drop Prosperous. Impenetrable is better than Prosperous for gold grinding anyway. People have been calling for Impenetrable to be restored as soon as it went missing in the Update 10 PTS. How many PTS cycles worth of feedback is it going to take to reverse this grievous mistake?

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn

This.

Kyye

Dubhliam wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We have an update for you. We will be making the following changes to Trait attainability with the launch of Update 12:

• Prosperous and Training will be removed as a valid Trait for all items that drop in Trials
• Valid Traits for Trials and Leaderboard rewards are as follows:
  • Weapons – Infused, Powered, Precise, Defending, Sharpened, Charged, Decisive
  • Armor – Infused, Divines, Well-Fitted, Reinforced, Sturdy
• Items drops in the overland and in dungeons will have a chance of dropping with all available Traits, including Impenetrable

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts with us on this subject. We appreciate how constructive this discussion has been, and the ideas shared.

This is what they said.
No more, no less.

Impenetrable Monster sets can still be obtained via the Golden vendor in Cyrodiil.

That's why there's no impen in the table. Why don't we understand that lol.

SirAndy

ginoboehm wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

I don't grind and I don't use a single piece of training gear and I have 730 CP, training should stay on crafted gear and trash items.

So you want ZOS to change their loot table because *you* don't need/want a certain trait?
Seems just a wee bit egotistical ...

So you argue that there is a valid reason to grind for monster masks in training? You really argue that anybody will want monster masks in training or hell prosperous? Like literally wanting it and hoping for a drop? Who wants that and for what reason?

I don't "argue" anything. There was a guy just 3 posts above mine that was *asking* for them with the training trait.

*Literally* asking for them ...

Strider_Roshin

Kyye wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We have an update for you. We will be making the following changes to Trait attainability with the launch of Update 12:

• Prosperous and Training will be removed as a valid Trait for all items that drop in Trials
• Valid Traits for Trials and Leaderboard rewards are as follows:
  • Weapons – Infused, Powered, Precise, Defending, Sharpened, Charged, Decisive
  • Armor – Infused, Divines, Well-Fitted, Reinforced, Sturdy
• Items drops in the overland and in dungeons will have a chance of dropping with all available Traits, including Impenetrable

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts with us on this subject. We appreciate how constructive this discussion has been, and the ideas shared.

This is what they said.
No more, no less.

Impenetrable Monster sets can still be obtained via the Golden vendor in Cyrodiil.

That's why there's no impen in the table. Why don't we understand that lol.

Well by that logic divine shouldn't be on the loot table either. After all, you can buy monster sets in divines with gold.

Asardes

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Kyye wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We have an update for you. We will be making the following changes to Trait attainability with the launch of Update 12:

• Prosperous and Training will be removed as a valid Trait for all items that drop in Trials
• Valid Traits for Trials and Leaderboard rewards are as follows:
  • Weapons – Infused, Powered, Precise, Defending, Sharpened, Charged, Decisive
  • Armor – Infused, Divines, Well-Fitted, Reinforced, Sturdy
• Items drops in the overland and in dungeons will have a chance of dropping with all available Traits, including Impenetrable

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts with us on this subject. We appreciate how constructive this discussion has been, and the ideas shared.

This is what they said.
No more, no less.

Impenetrable Monster sets can still be obtained via the Golden vendor in Cyrodiil.

That's why there's no impen in the table. Why don't we understand that lol.

Well by that logic divine shouldn't be on the loot table either. After all, you can buy monster sets in divines with gold.

*Only the shoulder, the head is always infused

xarguideb17_ESO

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

FYI

TRAINING IS NOT LOW LEVEL TRAIT!

im glad i can grind in monster stets with training trait

a

Lol.
I didn't think anyone would want or even need this.

Darnathian

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Lumbermill_Emperor wrote: »

@Ghost-Shot
ok, so i agreed training trait need to be removed from loot IF YOU REACHed CP limit

CP limit is 3600.

Just because you hit the current (spending) limit does not mean you stop earning CP.

So we should all get screwed with *** drops because you want to earn CP you will likely never be able to use? I don't grind and I don't use a single piece of training gear and I have 730 CP, training should stay on crafted gear and trash items.

Noob question. Does training gear help you earn CPs quicker?