Spending Undaunted Keys on the Update 12 PTS - Training, Prosperous, and no Impenetrable

Strider_Roshin

Asardes wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Kyye wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We have an update for you. We will be making the following changes to Trait attainability with the launch of Update 12:

• Prosperous and Training will be removed as a valid Trait for all items that drop in Trials
• Valid Traits for Trials and Leaderboard rewards are as follows:
  • Weapons – Infused, Powered, Precise, Defending, Sharpened, Charged, Decisive
  • Armor – Infused, Divines, Well-Fitted, Reinforced, Sturdy
• Items drops in the overland and in dungeons will have a chance of dropping with all available Traits, including Impenetrable

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts with us on this subject. We appreciate how constructive this discussion has been, and the ideas shared.

This is what they said.
No more, no less.

Impenetrable Monster sets can still be obtained via the Golden vendor in Cyrodiil.

That's why there's no impen in the table. Why don't we understand that lol.

Well by that logic divine shouldn't be on the loot table either. After all, you can buy monster sets in divines with gold.

*Only the shoulder, the head is always infused

True, I guess infused shouldn't be part of the loot table either. Enjoy farming fire training and prosperous gear with these odds.

sebban

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

No, Impenetrable has not been restored.

Impen on monster mask sets isn't in yet. Should make the next PTS build. (not tomorrow's, but the one after)

Please remove Prosperous and Training while you are at it.

Sallington

sebban wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

No, Impenetrable has not been restored.

Impen on monster mask sets isn't in yet. Should make the next PTS build. (not tomorrow's, but the one after)

Please remove Prosperous and Training while you are at it.

From ALL dungeon gear. Those 2 traits should ONLY be on random overworld mob drops, so you can decon them to craft that gear. No one runs a dungeon or trial hoping for a prosperous drop.

eserras7b16_ESO

Prosperous and Training must be removed from the endgame loot table.

Transairion

Sallington wrote: »

From ALL dungeon gear. Those 2 traits should ONLY be on random overworld mob drops, so you can decon them to craft that gear. No one runs a dungeon or trial hoping for a prosperous drop.

Except for the people who do want those drops, but let's just ignore they exist because it's inconvenient to include them. They've also already confirmed Trials have no Training, Prosperous or Impen drops so enjoy. Sturdy/Reinforced for all.

Almost all Dungeon content is easy enough to be done repeatedly with no stress and complete randoms, so it really isn't like getting a Training drop there is the end of the world. Especially not with the upcoming "each boss is guaranteed to drop a set piece" in Update 12. That's in addition to Vet always dropping a Monster Helm. And keys will always give a shoulder.

Getting ANY Dungeon set will be incredibly easy in Update 12, even with Training/Prosperous (and Impen will be dropping as well). And they don't have this supposed 75% droprate either, so it's a whole lot of complaining about nothing.

Sallington

Transairion wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

From ALL dungeon gear. Those 2 traits should ONLY be on random overworld mob drops, so you can decon them to craft that gear. No one runs a dungeon or trial hoping for a prosperous drop.

Except for the people who do want those drops, but let's just ignore they exist because it's inconvenient to include them. They've also already confirmed Trials have no Training, Prosperous or Impen drops so enjoy. Sturdy/Reinforced for all.

Almost all Dungeon content is easy enough to be done repeatedly with no stress and complete randoms, so it really isn't like getting a Training drop there is the end of the world. Especially not with the upcoming "each boss is guaranteed to drop a set piece" in Update 12. That's in addition to Vet always dropping a Monster Helm. And keys will always give a shoulder.

Getting ANY Dungeon set will be incredibly easy in Update 12, even with Training/Prosperous (and Impen will be dropping as well). And they don't have this supposed 75% droprate either, so it's a whole lot of complaining about nothing.

A lot of us hate running PvE content over and over again, especially when we keep getting the same crap traits.

xarguideb17_ESO

Or maybe make prosperous and training drop really rarely, like 0.01% of the time. Then grinders are satisfied - they need to grind for it

dsalter

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Wow.. I hope this gets fixed before live. Why is it such a struggle for ZoS to give us impen on our gear?

maybe the coding for the trait is hard to add cause it's... impenetrable.

deadlychaos1991

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Not to mention grinding doesn't teach you how to play.

Everything else you said is fine, but this is silly. There is such a thing as grinding effectively.

Basically, yes I can spam puncturing sweeps over and over and drop mobs. No that will not work well in dungeons. But I learned how to fell massive groups of mobs in rapid fire succession through grinding. Better yet, I learned how to stay alive while doing so. I learned not to freak out, when to block, when to heal, when to roll dodge to reposition or avoid a pretty beefy salvo of red.

So thanks to grinding, I pop caltrops and endless hail, brawler then vigor, throw in a jabs flurry or two and a whole vet trash pull is wasted. I learned that from grinding.

To fix your quote: "Not striving for efficacy doesn't teach you how to play."

None of the above needs a freaking monster helm either. Let's drop prosperous and training from helms and shoulders.

Grinding doesn't teach you to be good in pvp, nor will it teach you how to get a good time on the blood spawn, or a good rotation for rakkat, and go into vet maw and tell me how that endless hail, caltrops and brawler works against THOSE trash pulls.

But I agree, training and prosperous is trash in end game. It doesn't help give you ANYTHING end game, and by definition, if you are playing end game content, you're not doing it for experience.

Impen needs to be in undaunted loot tables. Period. Do it. Just do it.

deadlychaos1991

Lol forget my last comment, I didn't read rich's post.

Asardes

I sincerely think they are trolling by actually giving training and prosperous a higher drop chance than other traits. The last couple of weeks each time I ran a DLC dungeon on live and the set items were like 60% prosperous and training with some well fitted and sturdy. I saw divines maybe once, and I already had that piece in bank from a previous run. The undaunted chest was a little better, and got training and prosperous ~25% of the time, about the same they should be if all traits less impenetrable were getting the same probability, 12.5%. I hope they at least fix the dungeon set probabilities before it comes to live.

LMar

I thought they had said they were removing training and prosperous from dungeons and trials in t his update? Was it only for trials?

code65536

LMar wrote: »

I thought they had said they were removing training and prosperous from dungeons and trials in t his update? Was it only for trials?

Only for trials.

deadlychaos1991

Training and prosperous artificially lengthen the gear grind because no one can find use for those traits end game. It makes you keep running the dungeon to get desired traits.

MrTarkanian48

Transairion wrote: »

Besides if you are telling me that when farming cp you are farming mobs that you need your monster set to do it? Other than jewlery, which can't have propserous or training, you can craft every single piece you need training on. You could literally craft for a 2 set bonus which would match your 1 set bonus on your monster set.

You don't "need" any kind of set for anything: Monster Sets are powerful 2-peices, more powerful sets means mobs die faster, faster dying mobs means faster respawn, faster respawn means more efficient mob farming. It's pretty straightforward, and trying to equate a Monster Set to the terrible 2-peice crafted sets (%chance to do a low amount of fire damage, JEE WIZZ BATMAN) doesn't at all add up. And if you can't self-craft, what are you going to do, pay out of the nose for a 9-trait set of Training gear to be efficient?

It's also really hard to craft Training/Prosperous if you remove all the places it can drop.

i can totally see sturdy or reinforced finding a niche i don't get the existence of nirnhorned atm. so you would use your training monster set over divine or infused? although the increased dps could propably outweigh the xp loss? To even argue for a sudden 200cp increase is silly nothing like that was even in the realm of possibility zose implied. Monster sets provide very very vew advantages while grinding and atm i am highly doubting anybody is grinding for them while still not having a divine/infused/impen one (i would say everybody beside a to neclect minority will want a "good" trait before training or prosperous)

Sturdy/Reinforced/Nirnhorned is good on tank builds and tank sets, and that's about it. Any DPS/healer gear that comes in these traits are just as filler/worthless as Training/Prosperous supposedly are. But because they provide a tiny insignifitant combat bonus, people want to ignore that. Divines/Infused is basically the one and only choice for DPS and heals sets, and Impen is the PvP set. Almost every other trait is a "bad drop" on the majority of the game's sets. That's just how it is.

+70% mob experience VS higher dps... yeah I'll take experience when I choose to grind. CP cap has also only been raised ONCE so far, from CP501 to CP531 (correct me if I'm wrong) with CP561 being Update 12's cap. People are clamoring for more usable CP, and it's been said (somewhere, don't have a link sorry) that the initial CP change from 501 to 531 was only 30 points because they were testing the system. So yes I would expect it to go up more than 30CP per year.

No, nobody is probably grinding Vet Dungeons for their first ever Monster Set and are hoping for Training. But they're probably not hoping for anything other than Divines/Infused either, so that's a moot point. Almost all traits are bad compared to those two. That doesn't stop non-Divines dropping in the truckloads and immediately being deconstructed: a Prosperous Kena helm is no more filler than a Reinforced one, since you're going to replace EITHER ONE anyway.

Someone did the math on this but isn't impen better for grinding than prosperous as the gold you gain from prosperous is less than the gold you save from repairs?

If you want to call theorycrafting in Wrothgar (which depending on where you are, has no gold-dropping mobs so Prosperous is non-functional) "doing the math", but that's not a particularly balanced view. Saying Impen is better without actually wearing Prosperous at any point sort of throws that out the window.

Nobody has ever bothered to actually buy/craft a full set and go out farming mobs that actually drop gold to find out. I'm all for buffs, but even this specific it's STILL better than some of the old traits.

@Transairion

Look at the numbers. Out of 500 chest opened, and 7 available traits, all traits dropped within 5.2% chance of one another. Sturdy was 16.4% and Prosperous was 11.2%. All other traits dropped in between. There will always be some variance due to RNG, so I think it is safe to say that all traits drop at an equal rate.

The addition of impenetrable, which is wanted by a majority of players (81%.), will further dilute the loot table to 8 available traits. 100/8= 12.5% chance per trait.

Lets consider prosperous. Link. You apparently do not agree with the assessment, however, its seems pretty accurate to me. Further testing in IC showed that even if prosperous did edge out dropped gold over Impen (which it does not), the amount is insignificant in terms of gold gain compared to vendored items. Impen is a competitive, and seemingly superior option to Prosperous, and should simply replace Prosperous all together as Prosperous is worthless.

Training: 92% of players responding to this poll want it removed. Only 4% state they want it to stay. Your argument that it is no more worthless than Sturdy/Reinforced is wrong. For example, Reinforced and Sturdy on tank sets like Bloodspawn/Warden/Chudan are desirable. Sure it may not be desired on Kena or Velidreth, but hey, thats RNG for you. Training is never desirable to 92% of players.

92% of players would rather have these traits removed. Reducing the trait pool to 6 would increase the drop rates for more desirable traits to 16.67% from 12.5%. The addition of all these new sets creates even more RNG woes. Some chests will have 12 different monster sets in one. That is 12 sets times 3 different weights (36). Now add in ideal trait. 8 possible is 1/288 chance or .34% chance of getting your desired set/weight/trait combo. 6 possible is 1/216 or .46% chance of getting your desired piece.

I have 6 builds that are Undaunted 9 and farm undaunted dailies on 3 builds regularly and still am missing several desirable shoulders (Heavy Sturdy Bloodspawn, Divines Light Kena, Medium Divines Velidreth).

You do not need a Monster Helm for grinding. I am 150CP over cap, and never used Monster Training sets. To say you need them is simply wrong. Either craft a 7 piece training, or run 5 piece training and 2pc Monster Helm w/o training and accept that you will have slightly less XP gain. Or don't use training at all. Either way, stop trolling and support a change that will make getting desirable gear for the majority of the player base. This is an issue where you are an extreme minority. What is more important here? The satisfaction of 4% of people who will slightly inconvenienced by not being able to grind mobs with their preferred monster set for maximum xp gain? Or people that have opened hundreds of chests and still can't get the gear they need to perfect their desired build?

PS4_ZeColmeia

Transairion wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

From ALL dungeon gear. Those 2 traits should ONLY be on random overworld mob drops, so you can decon them to craft that gear. No one runs a dungeon or trial hoping for a prosperous drop.

Except for the people who do want those drops, but let's just ignore they exist because it's inconvenient to include them. They've also already confirmed Trials have no Training, Prosperous or Impen drops so enjoy. Sturdy/Reinforced for all.

Almost all Dungeon content is easy enough to be done repeatedly with no stress and complete randoms, so it really isn't like getting a Training drop there is the end of the world. Especially not with the upcoming "each boss is guaranteed to drop a set piece" in Update 12. That's in addition to Vet always dropping a Monster Helm. And keys will always give a shoulder.

Getting ANY Dungeon set will be incredibly easy in Update 12, even with Training/Prosperous (and Impen will be dropping as well). And they don't have this supposed 75% droprate either, so it's a whole lot of complaining about nothing.

Once again, I think we all can understand how training and prosperous can be used end game. Here is the thing you are forgetting, grinding out CP or gold is not "end game" content. The Trials, Vet Dungeons, and Cyrodiil are end game content. While I can do both end game, by the very nature of "end game' literally meaning you don't have anything else to do to build your character, grinding cp isn't even an end game activity, except for gettting over the cap before the next update.

So to put it clearly, yes there are end game uses for prosperous and training in end game, it is not for end game content just because you are using it at or near end game.

Not only this, but it doesn't even drop as a trait for jewelry. So you don't NEED dropped gear to max training or prosperous, therefore if this is a grinding activity you want to do, why do it on your BiS gear when you could craft a set and a half to do good enough to grind on easy mobs to get more xp/gold per hour?

Following the logic? There is no reason to get it on BiS gear when there is literally 0 use for it because by the simple nature of it being BiS and end game gear, training and prosperous don't have an end game content role, but rather support an activity that can be done outside of end game content during the end game of your character.

NeKryXe

well... i stopped using undaunted keys a few days ago because everything i got was training items, and i have no use for it on my main character. it would be nice if we could sell the keys or offer it to someone in low levels who need training items, or at least, if we could store the keys on the bank i could open the chests with a low level character to get lower level training items.

Deheart

End game? What end game? None of my chars have reached endgame since they still have skills or a way lot of CP to train. Until you can't level any skills or CP at all, you are not at end game. So Training will be useful until there are absolutely no skills to train.

cyberjanet

Perhaps we should equip the Preposterous trait before opening the chest in the hopes of getting something other than Preposterous and Training. I haven't done an analysis of what I get, but I know when I had nineteen keys, seventeen gave me either preposterous or training.

It would be nice to get a helm with a decent trait as well. I get so much training I begin to wonder if ZoS is trying to tell me something.

Asardes

A good decision I've taken today: I will stop running the daily pledges for good, until I have a new character on which I need to level up Undaunted and get the quest skill points. I had been contemplating this decision for a long time, but the thing that really convinced me for good is the damned scroll from Tempest Island who reset 5 times in a row mid fight. Working for 4-5 hours a day finishing HM pledges, and failing because one stupid mechanic is simply too annoying. And even when I get all 6 it's either an useless trait or something good I already have. Even with perfect traits at least 3/4 of the sets in dungeons, including the monster sets are worthless. I have no less than 150 shoulders and heads with decent traits and most new ones I get and are worth keeping are simply doubles. The only group content I will be running once a week is trials, and I will train hard to beat the HM on those. I will be running new content and actually getting sets that I don't have yet, which are much better than dungeon ones (Infallible Mage, Twilight Remedy, Moondancer, Vicious Ophidian, Alkosh etc.)