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Please Finish The Justice System
-
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)1 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sallington wrote: »White wabbit wrote: »So you accdentally pick up a item next to a guild trader or the best one next to the pledge giver , and hey presto someone pounding on you for there PvP action hmmm I think not
There's an option to turn off these kinds of whoopsie daisies already. Non-issue.
No there isnt. You can accidentslly pick up a potion or sword or bread and no option to turn it off. The option is whether or not you auto loot a container or whether a red steal container throe a dialog.
Obviously could change.
But right now its not that hard when at a busy trader who is moving.
So...pay closer attention?0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
Edit: Btw, regarding the cheap shot at the least reason I posted, you don't have any comments to the rest I take it?Edited by Daemons_Bane on September 28, 2016 4:38PM0 -
Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭White wabbit wrote: »
But doesn't that switch off all whoopsie daisies I would have to switch on and off when I want to be naughtySallington wrote: »White wabbit wrote: »So you accdentally pick up a item next to a guild trader or the best one next to the pledge giver , and hey presto someone pounding on you for there PvP action hmmm I think not
There's an option to turn off these kinds of whoopsie daisies already. Non-issue.
And when you switch it off you assume the risk!Daggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||1 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
As with any of these systems the griefing would be avoidable. Just takes a little extra work. (Which should be welcomed, given the stupidly easy nature of stealing in the game currently.)0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
As with any of these systems the griefing would be avoidable. Just takes a little extra work. (Which should be welcomed, given the stupidly easy nature of stealing in the game currently.)
As long as it can cause griefing, it should not be here.. Simple as that.. And that is probably why we won't get it.. People are not willing to stop1 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
As with any of these systems the griefing would be avoidable. Just takes a little extra work. (Which should be welcomed, given the stupidly easy nature of stealing in the game currently.)
As long as it can cause griefing, it should not be here.. Simple as that.. And that is probably why we won't get it.. People are not willing to stop
I can grief you in chat...or here on the forums, your Facebook page, hell if I knew you phone number I could grief you with text messages. Should we get rid of all of those too?2 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
As with any of these systems the griefing would be avoidable. Just takes a little extra work. (Which should be welcomed, given the stupidly easy nature of stealing in the game currently.)
As long as it can cause griefing, it should not be here.. Simple as that.. And that is probably why we won't get it.. People are not willing to stop
I can grief you in chat...or here on the forums, your Facebook page, hell if I knew you phone number I could grief you with text messages. Should we get rid of all of those too?
Now you're just arguing off track.. Get something better, or did you run out?Edited by Daemons_Bane on September 28, 2016 4:44PM1 -
Sallington✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
As with any of these systems the griefing would be avoidable. Just takes a little extra work. (Which should be welcomed, given the stupidly easy nature of stealing in the game currently.)
As long as it can cause griefing, it should not be here.. Simple as that.. And that is probably why we won't get it.. People are not willing to stop
This is what I have a problem with. You're willing to write off a potentially amazing systems just because you're worried some gankers might stake out some popular location, and you might die?
If that happens, get a bunch of your thief friends together and mess that person up. And that might start a mini thieves vs. enforces battle that spans the city. How freaking fun does that sound!
Side note: I don't know why everyone assume all the "pro pvpers" will be enforcers?Edited by Sallington on September 28, 2016 4:47PMDaggerfall Covenant
Sallington - Templar - Stormproof - Prefect II
Cobham - Sorcerer - Stormproof - First Sergeant II
Shallington - NightBlade - Lieutenant |
Balmorah - Templar - Sergeant ||2 -
jcasini222ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭Just wait until dueling hits live. I suggested they drop a basic mini Thizrinni arena outside of each city, by week 1 you'll find out why.
Instead of PvP elements in the justice system the community gets dueling option in cities.... Because that in no way can lead to grief.
Meanwhile players who wouldn't grief leave due to low depth content. Brilliant. Much success. Very wow.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »@STEVIL are you intentionally being obtuse?
Where's the tracking system? Can I summon a dog to track in a town?
Where's the getaway option? Can I bribe an innkeeper to give false information to an enforcer? Or to place a false scent marker to throw of the dog?
Those systems sound pretty cool to me.
I don't believe these things are in game, right? Literal system things making the game engaging. Beyond for guilds to just coordinate.
When I'd be thieving I wouldn't want to alert the enforcer guild and vice versa. Blind hunt/escape with added in game features. Is that difficult to understand? You seem to consistently gloss over the fine details you so care about and spout asinine examples. Ignoring all suggestions. You pulled out a quote where I even go onto point out I'd be fine with zero PvP in that scenario just craving a more robust player driven system. Did you read that?
*** it could be opt in just like duels. Placed on top of the current justice system. So if you don't check the box all those features wouldn't come into play and you can theive to your heart's content.
I am not being obtuse, intentionally or otherwise.
Are you?
Now for your topical not personal comments:
Getaway option? I see guards or enforcers, i move to evade, hide, get out of their patrol area or path. Enforcer spots me, i run to keep them outside of interact/duel dialog range. I use sprint, stealth, invis etc.
Dogs.. bribes... new dog-spoofers these sound like GREAT additions to the PVE justice content. I for one am on record with lotsa hopes to expand the pve justice and injustce content. But, there is nothing at all whatsoever that says for these cool festure that they are tied in any way to requiring both sides be PCs. So, these do not serve well the argument that player-v-player justice is needed. There is a ton of opportunity to add adfitionsl content to justice/injustice play.
But for the question of should we take existing pve content and add pvp elements, they add no useful info since they apply to both pve and pvp just as easily.
As for your not wanting to alert enforcers etc isnt that what opt-in does in fact? You go choose opt-in then your status changes and you may be seen as opted in by others depending on your current parameters and the rules. The whole "blind" thing is do you agree to the play or not. How is "i opt in" different from agreeing to participate in a consensual group play other than how the agreement to participate is reached?
And for the no features unless opt-in, again, the dogs, spoofer, bribes etc could be added to pve without requiring pvp opt-in, with reasonable caution and assessment.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
As with any of these systems the griefing would be avoidable. Just takes a little extra work. (Which should be welcomed, given the stupidly easy nature of stealing in the game currently.)
As long as it can cause griefing, it should not be here.. Simple as that.. And that is probably why we won't get it.. People are not willing to stop
This is what I have a problem with. You're willing to write off a potentially amazing systems just because you're worried some gankers might stake out some popular location, and you might die?
If that happens, get a bunch of your thief friends together and mess that person up. And that might start a mini thieves vs. enforces battle that spans the city. How freaking fun does that sound!
Side note: I don't know why everyone assume all the "pro pvpers" will be enforcers?
Don't get me wrong, if the system one day works, I will welcome it
But until then, I don't think it has a place in the game..
Bold part: You see now we disagree again.. I am not in any way, shape or form, interested in what passes for PvP in this game.. If I wanted to face other people, I do it in other games.. That's why I'm against a system that could possibly end up forcing "PvP" on people who don't wish it..Edited by Daemons_Bane on September 28, 2016 4:52PM0 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
As with any of these systems the griefing would be avoidable. Just takes a little extra work. (Which should be welcomed, given the stupidly easy nature of stealing in the game currently.)
As long as it can cause griefing, it should not be here.. Simple as that.. And that is probably why we won't get it.. People are not willing to stop
I can grief you in chat...or here on the forums, your Facebook page, hell if I knew you phone number I could grief you with text messages. Should we get rid of all of those too?
Now you're just arguing off track.. Get something better
I don't think that I am.
What this argument boils down to is simple. Some folks want to turn a game that revolves around two wars and killing things into a 'safe space.' It defies logic. I can only assume that these players detach the meaning of what they're doing and only see it as numbers or some kind of bland minigame.
Why should stealing thousands and thousands worth of people's belongings be entirely safe and profitable with zero fear of consequence? It only makes sense that others should be able to take you to task for it, and there were reasonable systems in the past to model this off of, one of which was in place in a game our previous Creative Director was the Lead Designer for. ...but all of the WoW kids cried and cried and cried about being triggered by all those big meanieface griefers.
Why would it be such a terrible thing to ask if you wanted to go on a crime spree that you should have to put a little effort into it? By doing simple things like paying attention to who is watching and gearing yourself just in case for that type of fight, and planning an escape route. (Keep in mind that people have to gear themselves specifically for most other activities.)
The main reason why I don't engage in thievery in this game is precisely that it's terri-boring. There is no challenge or consequence.
With something in place like a bounty threshold prior to becoming attackable, you could simple walk down to the refuge and pay your bounty before you hit the threshold and...you'd have zero fear of being griefed.1 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
As with any of these systems the griefing would be avoidable. Just takes a little extra work. (Which should be welcomed, given the stupidly easy nature of stealing in the game currently.)
As long as it can cause griefing, it should not be here.. Simple as that.. And that is probably why we won't get it.. People are not willing to stop
This is what I have a problem with. You're willing to write off a potentially amazing systems just because you're worried some gankers might stake out some popular location, and you might die?
If that happens, get a bunch of your thief friends together and mess that person up. And that might start a mini thieves vs. enforces battle that spans the city. How freaking fun does that sound!
Side note: I don't know why everyone assume all the "pro pvpers" will be enforcers?
So your counter-argument to people who dont like pvp and dont want pvp added to consequences for PVE play is that it could lead to more pvp on bigger scale thru their pve area and that would be cool!?!?!?!?
What was that word starting with "ob" someone was throwing around a short while ago?
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
As with any of these systems the griefing would be avoidable. Just takes a little extra work. (Which should be welcomed, given the stupidly easy nature of stealing in the game currently.)
As long as it can cause griefing, it should not be here.. Simple as that.. And that is probably why we won't get it.. People are not willing to stop
I can grief you in chat...or here on the forums, your Facebook page, hell if I knew you phone number I could grief you with text messages. Should we get rid of all of those too?
Now you're just arguing off track.. Get something better
I don't think that I am.
What this argument boils down to is simple. Some folks want to turn a game that revolves around two wars and killing things into a 'safe space.' It defies logic. I can only assume that these players detach the meaning of what they're doing and only see it as numbers or some kind of bland minigame.
Why should stealing thousands and thousands worth of people's belongings be entirely safe and profitable with zero fear of consequence? It only makes sense that others should be able to take you to task for it, and there were reasonable systems in the past to model this off of, one of which was in place in a game our previous Creative Director was the Lead Designer for. ...but all of the WoW kids cried and cried and cried about being triggered by all those big meanieface griefers.
Why would it be such a terrible thing to ask if you wanted to go on a crime spree that you should have to put a little effort into it? By doing simple things like paying attention to who is watching and gearing yourself just in case for that type of fight, and planning an escape route. (Keep in mind that people have to gear themselves specifically for most other activities.)
The main reason why I don't engage in thievery in this game is precisely that it's terri-boring. There is no challenge or consequence.
With something in place like a bounty threshold prior to becoming attackable, you could simple walk down to the refuge and pay your bounty before you hit the threshold and...you'd have zero fear of being griefed.
Bold 1: If your best argument is to compare this game to my faebook, you are indeed off track
Bold 2: Have you considered that not everyone sees it that way? Some of us don't give a crap about that war, and we are not interested in becoming a part of it.. This game's justice system is as safe as you make it.. We have the freedom to choose
Bold 3: I have never said it should be.. I have several times given my support for an upgraded system
Bold 4. See 3
Getting an upgrade is fine with me, but the players should not take the guards' place before we have a system that 100% works for everyone
0 -
jcasini222ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭@STEVIL it was obtuse and you win I gotta get back to work. See theives can come out the victor.
Enjoy your system0 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Sallington wrote: »People like playing in their little carebare solo RPG world without consequences. I guess adding the depth of a full Justice system would have been a bad thing. Lets just buy more costumes and mounts.
It's not that we don't want any consequences at all.. We just don't want bored PvP'ers to be the ones handling it, as that would almosy certainly be a bad system.. The fact that you call people carebears just for having another view, suggests to me that you are one of the persons rhat I would not care to see in such a system
The term carebear is over a decade old, don't really mean it in too harsh of a way. A little harsh though, since they neutered what could have been an amazingly in-depth system. Player-made thieve guilds, player-made enforcer guilds, the foundation of an awesome sandboxy aspect of the game.
I understand that it COULD have been annoying for some people, in the same way getting ganked off your horse is annoying for people in Cyrodil.
If you're a good thief, it's not like enforcers would just be able to kill you on the spot no matter what. If you're a terrible thief and keep getting caught, the risk is that an enforcer might have a chance at killing you. The problem is that people wanted NO risk.
Here is where the problem comes.. If I derp around in my relaxed PvE set, since that can easily handle guards, and I end up in a house with a hardcore PvP'er, I'm doomed.. He follows me, he uses combo attacks/weaving, and he has no area that he has to return to due to his coding.. That means that I will either have to gear for PvP or accept death.. Yes in some places people will be able to get away with theft because the spot is not worth camping, but the people who get off on killing us WILL find the better thief spots and camp them to get their fix.. And before you start complaining that I generalize about PvP'ers, remember that if you are just a standard person running around, I do not mean you.. But we all know, even if some won't admit it, that there ARE people who will camp these spots to get at the thieves.. And some of those people are not going to care if the thief is a low lvl new player
Or...I dunno, be careful about who you steal in front of?
I play in first person.. I can not see who enters the house after me.. I can hide from the npc characters, but with the speed we can attain in this game, a new player can appear instantly.. They can also appear from a login.. You can't do anything about that
So...because you're not willing to be aware of your surroundings...entire game systems should be scrapped...?
(And yes, I'm aware this is all hypothetical, but this is why we can't have nice things.)
That's where we disagree then.. I say that the major reason is the griefing that will ensue..
As with any of these systems the griefing would be avoidable. Just takes a little extra work. (Which should be welcomed, given the stupidly easy nature of stealing in the game currently.)
As long as it can cause griefing, it should not be here.. Simple as that.. And that is probably why we won't get it.. People are not willing to stop
I can grief you in chat...or here on the forums, your Facebook page, hell if I knew you phone number I could grief you with text messages. Should we get rid of all of those too?
Now you're just arguing off track.. Get something better
I don't think that I am.
What this argument boils down to is simple. Some folks want to turn a game that revolves around two wars and killing things into a 'safe space.' It defies logic. I can only assume that these players detach the meaning of what they're doing and only see it as numbers or some kind of bland minigame.
Why should stealing thousands and thousands worth of people's belongings be entirely safe and profitable with zero fear of consequence? It only makes sense that others should be able to take you to task for it, and there were reasonable systems in the past to model this off of, one of which was in place in a game our previous Creative Director was the Lead Designer for. ...but all of the WoW kids cried and cried and cried about being triggered by all those big meanieface griefers.
Why would it be such a terrible thing to ask if you wanted to go on a crime spree that you should have to put a little effort into it? By doing simple things like paying attention to who is watching and gearing yourself just in case for that type of fight, and planning an escape route. (Keep in mind that people have to gear themselves specifically for most other activities.)
The main reason why I don't engage in thievery in this game is precisely that it's terri-boring. There is no challenge or consequence.
With something in place like a bounty threshold prior to becoming attackable, you could simple walk down to the refuge and pay your bounty before you hit the threshold and...you'd have zero fear of being griefed.
Bold 1: If your best argument is to compare this game to my faebook, you are indeed off track
Bold 2: Have you considered that not everyone sees it that way? Some of us don't give a crap about that war, and we are not interested in becoming a part of it.. This game's justice system is as safe as you make it.. We have the freedom to choose
Bold 3: I have never said it should be.. I have several times given my support for an upgraded system
Bold 4. See 3
Getting an upgrade is fine with me, but the players should not take the guards' place before we have a system that 100% works for everyone
1. ...don't bother reading the rest of what I said. It's cool.
2. Did you play the main story? I mentioned two wars, one of which you almost certainly played through. And if you didn't give a crap about it, then you just confirmed my point about detaching the meaning of your actions.
3. Fair enough.0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I read it, commented on what I had a comment about.. You should know how that work from when you quoted my earlier post
And no, I didn't care for the wars in the main quest, but I did them to learn the story in the game, as that is primarily what I am here for.. The lore and the world 0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »White wabbit wrote: »So you accdentally pick up a item next to a guild trader or the best one next to the pledge giver , and hey presto someone pounding on you for there PvP action hmmm I think not
There's an option to turn off these kinds of whoopsie daisies already. Non-issue.
Some people just want to be free to do whatever they feel like at any time with zero consequences...
yeah true maybe for some but again... it seems there are less consequences for PVP play than for PVE play so why do folks on the PVP side keep painting the finger at PVE players for no consequence?
Right now in casual injustice content worldwide, if i screw up, i get PVE consequences - bounty. if i really screw up, i get bigger consequences - loss of gold loss of loot etc. if i fight a guard, i suffer gear loss and repairs. heck if i fight any PVe enemy i get such (maybe not if its a one shot, haven't checked all cases.) this is on top of expendables like potions, enchant charges etc which apply to everyone PVP or PVE.
But casual PVP play - no loss of gear needing no repair.
In current enforcer rules put forth, haven't seen enforcer loss as an aspect. havent seen enforcers able to be stolen from. havent seen consequences for enforcers patrolling an area but the area getting robbed from - ie they fail to spot the thief doesn't carry consequences they way the thief failing to hide from the enforcer does.
How many PVP player enforcers you think are gonna sign up if they know that their cp160 sharpened sword might be lost if they fail to spot a thief? but the thieves are supposed to sign up knowing if they get a sharpened cp160 sword but get spotted it could be forfeit plus additional gold??
Again, the crowd that seems to have more no risk rules in place NOW, and in upcoming dueling and in most any proposal i have seen for pvp justice add-ons has been the PVP side not the PVE side.
But you sure would get a different impression from the PVP supporters.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sallington wrote: »White wabbit wrote: »So you accdentally pick up a item next to a guild trader or the best one next to the pledge giver , and hey presto someone pounding on you for there PvP action hmmm I think not
There's an option to turn off these kinds of whoopsie daisies already. Non-issue.
No there isnt. You can accidentslly pick up a potion or sword or bread and no option to turn it off. The option is whether or not you auto loot a container or whether a red steal container throe a dialog.
Obviously could change.
But right now its not that hard when at a busy trader who is moving.
So...pay closer attention?
utterly amazing.
For some people, you may be surprised, its not a good thing to be sucked into content you dont want by dint of a casual click outside of that content.
PVP players running around in cyrodil dont get whisked off to maelstrom if they click on the wrong crate.
Similarly, some PVE players dont feel they should be sucked into PVP play by making a similar mistake.
Amazingly this game like many tries to make it easy to choose the content you want to engage in, choose the type of play your want to engage in and difficult to get thrown out of one into another.
it makes it easy to play however you want - unless however you want is attacking others who chose differently.
For some reason it seems many like that.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
alexkdd99✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's an Elder Scrolls game: player freedom should come first, remember that for many of us this is the first/only online experience.
It's not quite an Elder Scrolls game though. Besides the name/lore, this online version bears almost no similarities with its distant single player cousins. There were consequences for stealing, and the older the ES game, the worse the penalty for getting caught. These penalties included time spent in jail and loss of skill (Light Armor skill drops to 48 from 50.) Guards wouldn't just follow you for 200 meters and then suddenly forget where they were. Even in Skyrim, you had to outrun guards for a long time, sometimes even take shelter in a cave.
Sometimes it's nice to faceroll content, but only when there is a challenge presented to begin with. The justice system offers no such challenge, so it quickly becomes a boring chore. I mean, how many of us have the Black Market Mogul achievement? How many of us have stolen countless items, watching guards and citizens less than 15 feet away feel compelled to remain oblivious because anything more of a challenge would incite a whole generation of gamers who want nothing to do with anything remotely considered a challenge?
Player freedom should be a priority, but not when it undermines the quality of a game, its mechanics and content simply for the sake of those who no longer feel like challenge should be synonymous with gaming.The PVP aspect was easily exploitable, they said so themselves.
It is not in the game for a reason.
Between you feeling a little unconformtable seeing pixels on a screen representing dead NPC's that had no use in the game and a bad system where griefers and exploiters take all the advantages, I find it to be an easy pick.
To be fair, your statement is a bit of a misnomer. The people who said the PvP aspect was exploitable (Firor and Co.) are not the same people who had designed it (Sage and Co.) There's a number of potential reasons that Firor and Co. didn't want to add the PvP aspect for(couldn't properly finish it, no money to be made, bigger fish to fry coding wise), but dozens of MMO's have found ways to achieve an opt-in open world PvP design that doesn't allow players to grief others. Quit acting like this a clear black and white choice, where your only options are to either have useless dead NPC's laying about, or succumb to this imagined torrent of griefers and exploiters who come rushing over the hill Braveheart style in an attempt to sap the fun out your whole gaming experience.
What you like to do while spending your free time may be different than someone else and there is nothing wrong with that.
You saying player freedom should not undermine the quality of the game, but right now I don't think it does.
Saying player opt in for having a 10k bounty is not true. Some people may like achievement chasing but not pvp. So long as they don't want the pvp achievements they should be able to get all the PVE achievement they want.
You will have duels so if you see someone doing that then challenge them to a duel, if they decline that is their choice but you should not be able to force it on them because you disagree with what they are doing.
Nobody makes you sit and watch someone kill npcs. If you truly don't like the killing of npcs I suggest NOT playing a game where you can do so.0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Some examples I've run across in these discussions is stuff like
A: If the "PvP activation" triggers on bounty size, it sucks for the people who would go for achievements that automatically amass large bounties
B: How would you protect yourself against a ganker with an invisibility potion, without having to change gear/setup?
C: What stops them from camping the hideout entries, nuking any player with an active bounty?
All that stuff is something that needs to be taken care of.. And that is just a few issues.. I saw a suggestion some time ago that I actually liked a lot.. Lets say I'm robbing some merchant in Wayrest, and a player sees it.. Then that players runs over to me and presses E, or whatever you use as activate.. Then I am marked for, lets say 10 secs.. Now if that person that marked me, can get to a guard and alert him via a talk option, within those 10 seconds, then I would automatically be targeted by said guard.. I think that system has potential and could end up being goodEdited by Daemons_Bane on September 28, 2016 5:33PM0 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Some examples I've run across in these discussions is stuff like
A: If the "PvP activation" triggers on bounty size, it sucks for the people who would go for achievements that automatically amass large bounties
B: How would you protect yourself against a ganker with an invisibility potion, without having to change gear/setup?
C: What stops them from camping the hideout entries, nuking any player with an active bounty?
All that stuff is something that needs to be taken care of.. And that is just a few issues.. I saw a suggestion some time ago that I actually liked a lot.. Lets say I'm robbing some merchant in Wayrest, and a player sees it.. Then that players runs over to me and presses E, or whatever you use as activate.. Then I am marked for, lets say 10 secs.. Now if that person that marked me, can get to a guard and alert him via a talk option, within those 10 seconds, then I would automatically be targeted by said guard.. I think that system has potential and could end up being good
A. Risk vs. Reward.
B. Same way I do in PvP, by using the Sentry set (which is cheap) or detection potions.
C. Nothing. But refer to B.
I actually like this idea. Requiring opposing player interaction to identify a target for enforcers.0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Some examples I've run across in these discussions is stuff like
A: If the "PvP activation" triggers on bounty size, it sucks for the people who would go for achievements that automatically amass large bounties
B: How would you protect yourself against a ganker with an invisibility potion, without having to change gear/setup?
C: What stops them from camping the hideout entries, nuking any player with an active bounty?
All that stuff is something that needs to be taken care of.. And that is just a few issues.. I saw a suggestion some time ago that I actually liked a lot.. Lets say I'm robbing some merchant in Wayrest, and a player sees it.. Then that players runs over to me and presses E, or whatever you use as activate.. Then I am marked for, lets say 10 secs.. Now if that person that marked me, can get to a guard and alert him via a talk option, within those 10 seconds, then I would automatically be targeted by said guard.. I think that system has potential and could end up being good
A. Risk vs. Reward.
B. Same way I do in PvP, by using the Sentry set (which is cheap) or detection potions.
C. Nothing. But refer to B.
I actually like this idea. Requiring opposing player interaction to identify a target for enforcers.
You don't see a problem when you have to gear for PvP, when you just want to do PvE?
0 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Some examples I've run across in these discussions is stuff like
A: If the "PvP activation" triggers on bounty size, it sucks for the people who would go for achievements that automatically amass large bounties
B: How would you protect yourself against a ganker with an invisibility potion, without having to change gear/setup?
C: What stops them from camping the hideout entries, nuking any player with an active bounty?
All that stuff is something that needs to be taken care of.. And that is just a few issues.. I saw a suggestion some time ago that I actually liked a lot.. Lets say I'm robbing some merchant in Wayrest, and a player sees it.. Then that players runs over to me and presses E, or whatever you use as activate.. Then I am marked for, lets say 10 secs.. Now if that person that marked me, can get to a guard and alert him via a talk option, within those 10 seconds, then I would automatically be targeted by said guard.. I think that system has potential and could end up being good
A. Risk vs. Reward.
B. Same way I do in PvP, by using the Sentry set (which is cheap) or detection potions.
C. Nothing. But refer to B.
I actually like this idea. Requiring opposing player interaction to identify a target for enforcers.
You don't see a problem when you have to gear for PvP, when you just want to do PvE?
In that particular system, no, because you're not fighting anything else...
It's not like that would require you to throw on PvP gear in the middle of a dungeon or something. We're talking about around town mostly, so...no mobs.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
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Why should stealing thousands and thousands worth of people's belongings be entirely safe and profitable with zero fear of consequence? It only makes sense that others should be able to take you to task for it, and there were reasonable systems in the past to model this off of, one of which was in place in a game our previous Creative Director was the Lead Designer for. ...but all of the WoW kids cried and cried and cried about being triggered by all those big meanieface griefers.
Why would it be such a terrible thing to ask if you wanted to go on a crime spree that you should have to put a little effort into it? By doing simple things like paying attention to who is watching and gearing yourself just in case for that type of fight, and planning an escape route. (Keep in mind that people have to gear themselves specifically for most other activities.)
First bold and the paragraph its in.
Ok so there ARE risks and potential consequences for stealing. these risks include potential bounty, potential attack and thus loss of gear status to repairs, potential loss of the stolen goods as well as loss of gold for bounty you obtained prior to this.
the illusion trying to be fostered by some is that the ability of players who know what they are doing, who are suitably equipped or suitably skilled etc to overcome these obstacles is the same as NO RISK or NO CONSEQUENCES.
if you look at most all the other casual gameplay for PVE in this game, it is similarly scaled. those who know what they are doing, who are suitably equipped or suitably skilled etc can participate in delving, questing, grinding and so on and come out with no loss of life most every time. the risk is there but it can be beaten fairly easily by those players.
For newer players who dont meet all or some of those criteria the risk is of course greater. But they can learn and advance succeeding in the early going less often but still enough to keep it interesting.
these other casual play time uses including delving, grinding questing etc also offer opportunities to gain "rewards" and frankly those rewards are usually based on "gains over time played" higher than injustice.
So simply put the answer to Why should stealing thousands and thousands worth of people's belongings be entirely safe and profitable with zero fear of consequence? is that it isn't.
less simply put the answer to the less simply question of Why should stealing thousands and thousands worth of people's belongings be entirely safe and profitable with minimal risk or consequence for those who are suitably equipped or suitably skilled etc ? is that that is the norm for this game as far as casual PVE content including injustice, delving, questing and grinding among others and the game doesn't discriminate between players who want to spend time playing injustice content (say killing and stealing from stealing from khajiit in Reaper's march) and those playing delving content (say killing dark elves in various places), questing (killing and stealing from Dominion soldiers in bangkorai) or grinding (any number of races etc in any number of areas) by making the former casual play have significantly different risk-reward-time elements - even if the gameplay is drastically different between the contents.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Some examples I've run across in these discussions is stuff like
A: If the "PvP activation" triggers on bounty size, it sucks for the people who would go for achievements that automatically amass large bounties
B: How would you protect yourself against a ganker with an invisibility potion, without having to change gear/setup?
C: What stops them from camping the hideout entries, nuking any player with an active bounty?
All that stuff is something that needs to be taken care of.. And that is just a few issues.. I saw a suggestion some time ago that I actually liked a lot.. Lets say I'm robbing some merchant in Wayrest, and a player sees it.. Then that players runs over to me and presses E, or whatever you use as activate.. Then I am marked for, lets say 10 secs.. Now if that person that marked me, can get to a guard and alert him via a talk option, within those 10 seconds, then I would automatically be targeted by said guard.. I think that system has potential and could end up being good
A. Risk vs. Reward.
B. Same way I do in PvP, by using the Sentry set (which is cheap) or detection potions.
C. Nothing. But refer to B.
I actually like this idea. Requiring opposing player interaction to identify a target for enforcers.
You don't see a problem when you have to gear for PvP, when you just want to do PvE?
In that particular system, no, because you're not fighting anything else...
It's not like that would require you to throw on PvP gear in the middle of a dungeon or something. We're talking about around town mostly, so...no mobs.
But you're asking me to change my gear, which is a big part of my build and my character, to a set which I have to get from PvP vendors, to do my PvE activity0 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭
[Word Wall]
All of that is pretending that those consequences are actually likely.
I can run through King Emeric's castle until I am entirely out of inventory space over and over and over again and make it to the fence with almost zero difficulty. The guards' detection radius is pathetic, the normal NPC's usually only look one direction. You have to be really bad, or just not paying attention to get caught.
Why should I be able to steal from a cabinet two feet from a KING. Let's think about that one for a second. (It's not even hard to do.)
And...to your second point. This game's 'casual' PvE used to be a lot harder, and I miss those days. Just like the Justice System we'll never get, all of the normal overland content was nerfed-to-hell because of the same sentiments you're putting forth now.0 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »Some examples I've run across in these discussions is stuff like
A: If the "PvP activation" triggers on bounty size, it sucks for the people who would go for achievements that automatically amass large bounties
B: How would you protect yourself against a ganker with an invisibility potion, without having to change gear/setup?
C: What stops them from camping the hideout entries, nuking any player with an active bounty?
All that stuff is something that needs to be taken care of.. And that is just a few issues.. I saw a suggestion some time ago that I actually liked a lot.. Lets say I'm robbing some merchant in Wayrest, and a player sees it.. Then that players runs over to me and presses E, or whatever you use as activate.. Then I am marked for, lets say 10 secs.. Now if that person that marked me, can get to a guard and alert him via a talk option, within those 10 seconds, then I would automatically be targeted by said guard.. I think that system has potential and could end up being good
A. Risk vs. Reward.
B. Same way I do in PvP, by using the Sentry set (which is cheap) or detection potions.
C. Nothing. But refer to B.
I actually like this idea. Requiring opposing player interaction to identify a target for enforcers.
You don't see a problem when you have to gear for PvP, when you just want to do PvE?
In that particular system, no, because you're not fighting anything else...
It's not like that would require you to throw on PvP gear in the middle of a dungeon or something. We're talking about around town mostly, so...no mobs.
But you're asking me to change my gear, which is a big part of my build and my character, to a set which I have to get from PvP vendors, to do my PvE activity
Do you change your gear based on whether your are Healing, Tanking, or DPS'ing?0