Please Finish The Justice System

Osteos

Nestor wrote: »

Osteos wrote: »

The fact that these threads keep appearing is a clear indication that the current system is not fine for everyone.

@Osteos

And if you look at those threads you will see the overwhelming majority do not want Player Enforcers/PvP in PvE Zones. Most of the posts in favor are done so by just a few people repeating themselves. Kind of like this thread.

Actually a quick search shows several justice system post by different people:

@bellanca6561n
@Dubhliam
@Lefty_Lucy

To name a few, but I will agree its the same few people against it that repeat themselves adamantly in every thread.

Dubhliam

STEVIL wrote: »

Zamrod_beta wrote: »

I'm rather in between on this one. I have had bad experiences with PvP and am primarily a PvE player. However, I don't think there needs to be a huge line drawn in the sand that says that the two can never meet for any reason.

When I heard the announcement that the Justice System would allow you to get caught and have people hunt you down I was pretty excited while being very wary at the same time depending on how it was implemented. I don't keep very up to date on ESO news so I had never heard that feature was cancelled until now. I just assumed that the second half of the Justice System would show up eventually. It does feel rather incomplete without that part of it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with doing Injustice activities being a high risk, high reward prospect. Of course, it would be difficult to implement now that it wasn't put in at the beginning.

I think it would be perfectly fine to say "Hey, you can do these activities and you'll get some good rewards from them but you risk the real possibility of entering PvP if you do so." and allow players to choose to take that risk. That way players who didn't mind PvP but didn't want to do it constantly could decide that they wanted to risk PvP without guaranteeing it. That if they were skilled enough at killing or stealing where they couldn't be seen then they wouldn't have to worry about PvP.

I have to admit that the current implementation does feel a little dull. It's fairly obvious that they had to balance the system around the idea that nothing bad was going to happen to you if you get caught. So because of that, you can't steal anything especially valuable or get ahead using it. There's a limit on how much you can fence each day to avoid the system being too profitable. But those restrictions only need to be put in because there's no real penalty for stealing. So instead, it becomes another perfectly balanced PvE activity.

Without any real risk, they can't put in any real reward. Which just makes the whole thing seem a little bland. And as much as I hate forced PvP, I don't see anything wrong with labeling Injustice activities as "partially PvP".

i do.

i have two DLCs - TG and DB. They are exclusively PVE content, questlines etc. people PAY MONEY for those. Some already have.

Were ZOS to decide to take that content and make it all PVP enabling to participate in it, for me that would be a serious breach of trust.

Imagine if tomorrow they removed the dungeons from shadows of the hist and replaced them with delves?

MMO are living games that grow and change but IMO moving wholesale skill lines and purchased content from PVE to PVP is a bait-n-switch too far.

I paid for Imperial City once it got out.
This DLC includes both the White Gold Tower and the Imperial City Prison dungeons.

Those got nerfed hard.

I want my money back.

Oh yeah, they also added the district capture mechanic.

I want my money back.

I paid for Orsinium so I can farm BoP sets in Wrothgar.
They will now become BoP.

I want my money back.



And FFS please stop referencing my detailed proposal to showcase your agendas.
Unless you are willing to comment on the full length of my thread.
Which I know you don't.

STEVIL

LaiTash wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

But thats what taking some of the steps suggested here, most specifically the play-justice-means-pvp, does.

If you've read the dev's notes when the system was still planning you'd knew that playing justice wouldn't necessary mean pvp.

Since the dev notes arent on this threadsnd i referred to things in this thread this is a nonsensical statement.

Playing justice NOW doesnt mean pvp, after all.

STEVIL

Nestor wrote: »

Osteos wrote: »

The fact that these threads keep appearing is a clear indication that the current system is not fine for everyone.

@Osteos

And if you look at those threads you will see the overwhelming majority do not want Player Enforcers/PvP in PvE Zones. Most of the posts in favor are done so by just a few people repeating themselves. Kind of like this thread.

Yep

STEVIL

@bellanca6561n
"These scenes make no sense to me."

If by this you are referring to npc figures ignoring leftover fallen, that is not limited to or even an aspect of the justice system.
It says nothing sbout the finished or unfinished state of that system.
You Can generate same sort of scenes in most any area where any hostiles are present from the early started islands to colharbor, wrothgar and beyond without ever picking a pocket or turning off prevent attack innocents.
Its just a common artifact of the gameplay for mmo.

Changing justice to allow pvp the subject of many posts in this thread wont change these images.

hingarthuub17_ESO

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand they're off!

Same PvP griefer garabge, different thread, different day.

bellanca6561n

STEVIL wrote: »

@bellanca6561n
"These scenes make no sense to me."

If by this you are referring to npc figures ignoring leftover fallen, that is not limited to or even an aspect of the justice system.
It says nothing sbout the finished or unfinished state of that system.
You Can generate same sort of scenes in most any area where any hostiles are present from the early started islands to colharbor, wrothgar and beyond without ever picking a pocket or turning off prevent attack innocents.
Its just a common artifact of the gameplay for mmo.

Changing justice to allow pvp the subject of many posts in this thread wont change these images.

It's not that.

Before the term MMO was coined, online games were more focused on simulation. I did Air Warrior for many years which was a straight up simulation, but I'm a pilot....hence the aircraft type and tail number in my forum name and a different one in my game account name.

What surprised me when I went to work at Origin was that the UO team saw their game as a simulation too. This is why they were so angry during the development of The Renaissance Edition when the world was split in two: a PvP area and PvE Trammel.

It's not that I need open world PvP. I continue to play UO on Siege Perilous which has much of the original rule set. It's not the PvP though. I'm not much of a killer. What I like is that the tone and behavior feel like a community simulation to me.

I feel I'm in an alternative world influenced by my fellow players. Period.

I do love ESO though. LOVE the shader. The world is GORGEOUS. I adore my characters because they look so vivid....almost real. I have these....moments when I feel that, yes, I'm hitting buttons on my game controller, but I'm witnessing a character separate from myself.

The combat mechanics are complex. Fighting feels like fighting. ESO is as close to an action MMO as we have in the west.

Yet I'm still a simulations guy. Dead civilians lying around plays havoc with my willing suspension of disbelief. More than that, it creates a sloppy, unfinished feel to an often extremely polished, high production value product.

When I began working at Kesmai, decades ago, I never imagined I'd see a game that looked like this. Not an online game at least. Thus these corpses lying around towns with no core game connection....no ongoing town invasion...no metagame story line...nothing congruent with this game's larger themes...it feels shabby.

I was joking today in guild chat about 30 years of commercial online gaming....about turning 64 next month...about all the players in ESO who are in their 20s or younger. I concluded that they will be playing online games when they're in their 80s. And, perhaps, after 60 more years of online game development, maybe they'll get it right

STEVIL

@bellanca6561n
"Dead civilians lying around plays havoc with my willing suspension of disbelief."

So if something is killed you want them to vanish instantly?
So if something is killed you want the NPCs nearby to react, to notice the fallen?
So if a fight is going on between two anythings, including a duel, you want NPCs in the area to react, intervene, run, throw heals?

NOTE: I said something, not "civilians" because it seems like if one is "witnessing a character separate from myself." the labels of PC and NPC dont really have meaning.

OR...

is it just that your "witnessing a character separate from myself." is broken when the bodies are dead because of justice content activity and all the other ways dead bodies can appear and get ignored dont bother you one bit?

Would your "witnessing a character separate from myself." be infringed upon if you saw two PCs dueling in downtown Wayrest next to the wayshrine to the death and your character could do nothing but sit and watch the murder occur?

Can you make it clearer what you want and answer the following?

What in your view SHOULD your character be able to do if they see a fight between two folks in or on the outskirts of Wayrest to allow your suspension of disbelief to remain intact and your "witnessing a character separate from myself." to be satisfied?

Please, Consider the following cases and if they produce different answers, please explain:
Case 1 NPC vs NPC
Case 2 PC vs PC (duel)
Case 3 NPC vs PC (NPC is a red quest target for that PC - non-justice)
Case 4 NPC vs PC (NPC is a red random varmint for most anyone- non-justice)
Case 5 NPC vs PC (NPC is a red quest target for that PC - justice - produces bounty for that PC if spotted)
Case 6 NPC vs PC (NPC is a red civilian - justice - produces bounty for that PC if spotted)

In each of these cases should you:
A - be able to wade in and attack one or both and if so, would it produce bounty for you?
B - be able to use heals and buffs on one or both?
C - be able to report them to nearby NPCs and get them to intervene?
D - Rez them after death using soul gems?
E - Pick up bodies, carry them away and conduct a burial?

LaiTash

@STEVIL

Man, this thread is about justice system as it was planned, please stop throwing irrelevant arguments. There are many things zeni could do to improve immersion but they are to be discussed elsewere.

STEVIL

LaiTash wrote: »

@STEVIL

Man, this thread is about justice system as it was planned, please stop throwing irrelevant arguments. There are many things zeni could do to improve immersion but they are to be discussed elsewere.

Uh @LaiTash maybe you dont know this but the individual i am quoting is the OP who started the thread with images and screen caps and when i respond to the OP posts about how they make it feel to them and they bring up their "witnessing a character separate from myself." impact etc... it seems way out of sync for me to be called on for making the thread about that subject.

You dont get to decide what the thread is about and dismiss topics inserted by the original poster, much less anyone else involved.

MornaBaine

Hopefully with dueling finally enabled they can now go on and find a way to update the justice system without people losing their minds.

LaiTash

@STEVIL

You dont get to decide what the thread is about

I think the title states clear what this thread is about, i don't need to decide anything.

STEVIL

LaiTash wrote: »

@STEVIL

You dont get to decide what the thread is about

I think the title states clear what this thread is about, i don't need to decide anything.

LaiTash wrote: »

@STEVIL

You dont get to decide what the thread is about

I think the title states clear what this thread is about, i don't need to decide anything.

You do know the OP references the images and effect on what you are referring to as immersion in their arguments for there being a problem, right?

maybe you should start a thread titled "All the non-immersive reasons the PVP would make PVE content better" if you dont want immersive topics being discussed in your PVP threads?

STEVIL

MornaBaine wrote: »

Hopefully with dueling finally enabled they can now go on and find a way to update the justice system without people losing their minds.

possible, if indeed what is sought is consensual PVP conflicts and not getting PVP vs PVE surprises or wholesale takeover of PVE content.

unfortunately there seems to be ample evidence to the contrary.

Dubhliam

STEVIL wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Hopefully with dueling finally enabled they can now go on and find a way to update the justice system without people losing their minds.

possible, if indeed what is sought is consensual PVP conflicts and not getting PVP vs PVE surprises or wholesale takeover of PVE content.

unfortunately there seems to be ample evidence to the contrary.

You mean "partial" takeover, right?
Because PvP Justice system would only impact the "punisment for failing" part of a part of a PvE part of this game.

Khenarthi

Actually one could even argue that getting a bounty is not failing at this PVE activity, because there's an achievement for it. So "punishment" for getting a bounty with being open to attacks from other players would make it harder and more tedious than it already is. 100.000 gold in paid bounties is a lot of money (and a lot of bounties) for a mousey colour.

I have the black market mogul one for thieving, but not the one for bounties paid - yet.

STEVIL

Dubhliam wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

Hopefully with dueling finally enabled they can now go on and find a way to update the justice system without people losing their minds.

possible, if indeed what is sought is consensual PVP conflicts and not getting PVP vs PVE surprises or wholesale takeover of PVE content.

unfortunately there seems to be ample evidence to the contrary.

You mean "partial" takeover, right?
Because PvP Justice system would only impact the "punisment for failing" part of a part of a PvE part of this game.

That depends on the implementation.

in this thread there have been comments to the effect that if you dont want to be exposed to PVP dont particiapte in the justice system. i believe one direct quote in response to my comment on if i were forced into PVP was...

"Participation in justice system is by no means mandatory, so you should be fine."

besides, even if i accept that "getting caught" in injustice activities is somehow failing - "failing" at PVE should not open oneself up to PVP... that doesn't make the PVE more fun more interesting more enjoyable.

or do you think that if we added to Maelstrom Arena that "on a death you get sucked out of MSA, VMSA, HMVSMA and into a PVP conflict with one or more folks geared for PVP" it wouldn't be seen as a takeover of PVE content especially if when you lost the PVP you also lost the loot gained from the arena stages.

yeah... bet that would raise the participation rates of the high end arenas and dungeeons and trials - "death = fail = PVP or lose stuff".

more fun for everyone as PVP makes PVE so much more enjoyable.

Right?

Everyone good with that?

STEVIL

Khenarthi wrote: »

Actually one could even argue that getting a bounty is not failing at this PVE activity, because there's an achievement for it. So "punishment" for getting a bounty with being open to attacks from other players would make it harder and more tedious than it already is. 100.000 gold in paid bounties is a lot of money (and a lot of bounties) for a mousey colour.

I have the black market mogul one for thieving, but not the one for bounties paid - yet.

LaiTash

STEVIL wrote: »

You do know the OP references the images and effect on what you are referring to as immersion in their arguments for there being a problem, right?

maybe you should start a thread titled "All the non-immersive reasons the PVP would make PVE content better" if you dont want immersive topics being discussed in your PVP threads?

Maybe i should, but this one is about justice system as it was initially designed. Your attempts to drive the thread away from it's original topic lead nowere.

I_killed_Vivec

bellanca6561n wrote: »

Dead civilians lying around plays havoc with my willing suspension of disbelief. More than that, it creates a sloppy, unfinished feel to an often extremely polished, high production value product.

PvP Justice won't help remove immersion-breaking piles of dead bodies.

What happens to your suspension of disbelief if I kill an NPC, trigger PvP Justice, and the NPC resurrects while I'm busy killing the "Enforcer"?

The dead NPC bodies still pile up, even though it's resurrected. You'd be able to take the same photos...

Even worse, you just witnessed a Criminal/Enforcer fight, even though the NPC is alive and well - almost as if a murder never took place - and yet for some reason there's now the dead body of an Enforcer lying on the ground

STEVIL

LaiTash wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

You do know the OP references the images and effect on what you are referring to as immersion in their arguments for there being a problem, right?

maybe you should start a thread titled "All the non-immersive reasons the PVP would make PVE content better" if you dont want immersive topics being discussed in your PVP threads?

Maybe i should, but this one is about justice system as it was initially designed. Your attempts to drive the thread away from it's original topic lead nowere.

No, its not about just that and me responding to the original poster and other comments about what you call immersive elements is not me leading anything away... unlike say you trying to post about what others should be allowed to post about.

if you have anything relevant to the thread to say i may respond to you but as long as you want to continue down the telling others what the scope of the thread is line, not likely. But please, continue as long as you want while i continue to try and get more info from the OP and all the other things about the subject at hand.

Wolfhammer

RebornV3x wrote: »

No we have to think of the PVE carebears and so we can't have nice things like a completed justice system.

You're a tube..

STEVIL

LaiTash wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

You do know the OP references the images and effect on what you are referring to as immersion in their arguments for there being a problem, right?

maybe you should start a thread titled "All the non-immersive reasons the PVP would make PVE content better" if you dont want immersive topics being discussed in your PVP threads?

Maybe i should, but this one is about justice system as it was initially designed. Your attempts to drive the thread away from it's original topic lead nowere.

On a related note:

Show of hands...

How many people know that practically speaking no complex system especially in software or game design is ever delivered in finished product as it was initially designed?

i mean it is always the case with something as complex and significant as this that the original design is adjusted, modified, sometimes even completely overhauled as development and testing goes thru to end up with a released product.

it is often the case that parts that were in the original design are discarded or replaced or totally re-imagined.

can you imagine this game if every thing they ever released was the original design, the first draft?

Funny i gotta say.

LaiTash

STEVIL wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

You do know the OP references the images and effect on what you are referring to as immersion in their arguments for there being a problem, right?

maybe you should start a thread titled "All the non-immersive reasons the PVP would make PVE content better" if you dont want immersive topics being discussed in your PVP threads?

Maybe i should, but this one is about justice system as it was initially designed. Your attempts to drive the thread away from it's original topic lead nowere.

On a related note:

Show of hands...

How many people know that practically speaking no complex system especially in software or game design is ever delivered in finished product as it was initially designed?

i mean it is always the case with something as complex and significant as this that the original design is adjusted, modified, sometimes even completely overhauled as development and testing goes thru to end up with a released product.

it is often the case that parts that were in the original design are discarded or replaced or totally re-imagined.

can you imagine this game if every thing they ever released was the original design, the first draft?

Funny i gotta say.

First of all, it wasn't "re-imagined", it was castrated. Second, even if something was re-imagined by devs, the community has all rights to ask them to re-imagine it back.

Khenarthi

@LaiTash

The comunity is not speaking in one voice about this subject: some are happy with the current state of the justice system, some are not, Zenimax has to decide and so far they decided to leave it as is.

We here on the forum are only a small part of this community and if you have the right to ask for a change, others have the right to ask that that change is not made. Their opinion is as valuable as yours.

Also, this has been debated many times before, all kinds of arguments have been presented from both sides. Time to leave the dead horse alone and go enjoy the game we all love, yes?

Daemons_Bane

Khenarthi wrote: »

@LaiTash

The comunity is not speaking in one voice about this subject: some are happy with the current state of the justice system, some are not, Zenimax has to decide and so far they decided to leave it as is.

We here on the forum are only a small part of this community and if you have the right to ask for a change, others have the right to ask that that change is not made. Their opinion is as valuable as yours.

Also, this has been debated many times before, all kinds of arguments have been presented from both sides. Time to leave the dead horse alone and go enjoy the game we all love, yes?

This guy gets it

LaiTash

Khenarthi wrote: »

@LaiTash

The comunity is not speaking in one voice about this subject: some are happy with the current state of the justice system, some are not, Zenimax has to decide and so far they decided to leave it as is.

We here on the forum are only a small part of this community and if you have the right to ask for a change, others have the right to ask that that change is not made. Their opinion is as valuable as yours.

Also, this has been debated many times before, all kinds of arguments have been presented from both sides. Time to leave the dead horse alone and go enjoy the game we all love, yes?

Beating a dead horse ensures it's never buried and thus can still be ressurected.

STEVIL

LaiTash wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

LaiTash wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

You do know the OP references the images and effect on what you are referring to as immersion in their arguments for there being a problem, right?

maybe you should start a thread titled "All the non-immersive reasons the PVP would make PVE content better" if you dont want immersive topics being discussed in your PVP threads?

Maybe i should, but this one is about justice system as it was initially designed. Your attempts to drive the thread away from it's original topic lead nowere.

On a related note:

Show of hands...

How many people know that practically speaking no complex system especially in software or game design is ever delivered in finished product as it was initially designed?

i mean it is always the case with something as complex and significant as this that the original design is adjusted, modified, sometimes even completely overhauled as development and testing goes thru to end up with a released product.

it is often the case that parts that were in the original design are discarded or replaced or totally re-imagined.

can you imagine this game if every thing they ever released was the original design, the first draft?

Funny i gotta say.

First of all, it wasn't "re-imagined", it was castrated. Second, even if something was re-imagined by devs, the community has all rights to ask them to re-imagine it back.

third you are right, it wasn't re-imagined, it was discarded as my post listed first when i said "it is often the case that parts that were in the original design are discarded or replaced or totally re-imagined."

PVP justice was not re-imagined, just discarded.

people are of course free to ask for it to be pulled out of the trash heap. thats why i tend to not go around telling people to not post.

STEVIL

LaiTash wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

@LaiTash

The comunity is not speaking in one voice about this subject: some are happy with the current state of the justice system, some are not, Zenimax has to decide and so far they decided to leave it as is.

We here on the forum are only a small part of this community and if you have the right to ask for a change, others have the right to ask that that change is not made. Their opinion is as valuable as yours.

Also, this has been debated many times before, all kinds of arguments have been presented from both sides. Time to leave the dead horse alone and go enjoy the game we all love, yes?

Beating a dead horse ensures it's never buried and thus can still be ressurected.

Absolutely but without fresh air (ideas) its still going to smell just as bad and so those wanting to keep it as originally designed before it was intentionally discarded might be well served to give that position a think over.

cjthibs

This dude would've never made it in UO or SWG.