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Please Finish The Justice System
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LaiTash✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »But as you stated, you are not even gonna participate, so you are trying to force people into a system that is hurtful to them, and in worst case, the game in general, for no reason? That's dumb as hell
Just because i'm not going to be an enforcer doesnt mean i'm not gonna participate. There are (or, right now, should be) two sides of the justice system you know.
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cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »...Nothing in your example calls for, or justifies, forcing PvP down the throat of people who does not want PvP
And nobody is advocating for that...
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cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »But as you stated, you are not even gonna participate, so you are trying to force people into a system that is hurtful to them, and in worst case, the game in general, for no reason? That's dumb as hell
Just because i'm not going to be an enforcer doesnt mean i'm not gonna participate. There are (or, right now, should be) two sides of the justice system you know.
I know I would do both sides, likely on different characters.1 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »...Nothing in your example calls for, or justifies, forcing PvP down the throat of people who does not want PvP
And nobody is advocating for that...
Ehm.. What? If the system was to kick in at a certain bounty limit, I'm pretty sure that's forcing them into it1 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So for the PVP-JUSTICE crowd a question.
i was asked about details a while back for what kind of PVP justice i would consider and I mentioned details matter etc., i mentioned that they added dueling with plenty of reasonable restrictions.
So let me ask any PVP-JUSTICE seeker if the following conditions as a whole would be accpetable for them for adding in PVP JUSTICE content:
1 There is an absolutely opt-out setting under settings for "wont happen stick with all my pve justice content. (Just like auto-decline duels.)
2 There is a limit to the number of enforcers active in a given area at one time. (Dueling has limits on active duels.)
3 There is an additional opt-out refusal stage at the point where player-v-player challenge occurs, so that basically you can still choose to not play with people you dont want to play with by refusing to fight the "bounty hunter" and preferring to "take my chance with the guards." (Exactly like the refuse a duel request works - just because you are Ok to dueling doesn't mean you have to duel with people you dont want to. you can still choose who you play with on a one-to-one level)
obviously that isn't an entire system but as a core for the "consensual part" are those three together a deal breaker for those wanting PVP justice?
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »...Nothing in your example calls for, or justifies, forcing PvP down the throat of people who does not want PvP
And nobody is advocating for that...
Ehm.. What? If the system was to kick in at a certain bounty limit, I'm pretty sure that's forcing them into it
No. It isn't.
If the maximum tax rate is %40, but it only kicks in at $100k/year, but you only make $99.9k/year, is the government forcing you to pay the highest tax rate?
(Obviously not real numbers.)0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »But as you stated, you are not even gonna participate, so you are trying to force people into a system that is hurtful to them, and in worst case, the game in general, for no reason? That's dumb as hell
Just because i'm not going to be an enforcer doesnt mean i'm not gonna participate. There are (or, right now, should be) two sides of the justice system you know.
So you waited about 20 posts before taking the thief side.. Could have saved some time if that had happened sooner
That still does not change anything though Edited by Daemons_Bane on September 29, 2016 8:19PM0 -
LaiTash✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »The difference here is that since she is bored, she can stop or take a break, without interference from others.. If she still dislike it, she can move to something else..
Right now, moving to something else is the only thing she could do. Good thing she didn't move to another MMO. Now, if there were the enforcer part of the system and you dislike it, you could move to something else as well you know...IF she wanted to fight others, she could tick the box and go at it.. All of her own free will..
If that how it's going to work, there will be complaints about how PvP-enabled thieves get better loot, i'm 100% certain of it. This, or everyone switch to this mode, rendering the checkbox useless.
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cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »But as you stated, you are not even gonna participate, so you are trying to force people into a system that is hurtful to them, and in worst case, the game in general, for no reason? That's dumb as hell
Just because i'm not going to be an enforcer doesnt mean i'm not gonna participate. There are (or, right now, should be) two sides of the justice system you know.
So you waited about 20 posts before taking the thief side.. Could have saved some time if that had happened sooner That still does not change anything though
Ha. He said it like 4 pages back.
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Nestor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
My gf started playing about 2 weeks ago, no DLC, no ESO+ yet, no troves, no pardons, yet she managed. That is, until she quit stealing because it was so incredibly booooooring. That's one example of how the current system can cause disgust to a new player.
And getting ganked by an enforcer would disgust me and stop me from ever stealing again. So, there is the other side of the coin.
Enjoy the game, life is what you really want to be worried about.
PakKat "Everything was going well, until I died"
Gary Gravestink "I am glad you died, I needed the help"2 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »But as you stated, you are not even gonna participate, so you are trying to force people into a system that is hurtful to them, and in worst case, the game in general, for no reason? That's dumb as hell
Just because i'm not going to be an enforcer doesnt mean i'm not gonna participate. There are (or, right now, should be) two sides of the justice system you know.
So you waited about 20 posts before taking the thief side.. Could have saved some time if that had happened sooner That still does not change anything though
Ha. He said it like 4 pages back.
Meh my bad then All I saw was that he said he was not gonna be an enforcer 0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »The difference here is that since she is bored, she can stop or take a break, without interference from others.. If she still dislike it, she can move to something else..
Right now, moving to something else is the only thing she could do. Good thing she didn't move to another MMO. Now, if there were the enforcer part of the system and you dislike it, you could move to something else as well you know...IF she wanted to fight others, she could tick the box and go at it.. All of her own free will..
If that how it's going to work, there will be complaints about how PvP-enabled thieves get better loot, i'm 100% certain of it. This, or everyone switch to this mode, rendering the checkbox useless.
I never said that I dislike the enforcer system pal And has anyone ever claimed that PvP thiefs should get better loot? From what I've read through all these discussions, I fell pretty sure that we can all but guarantee that not everyone will tick the box And even if they did, it would still work better than forcing it Edited by Daemons_Bane on September 29, 2016 8:23PM0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »...Nothing in your example calls for, or justifies, forcing PvP down the throat of people who does not want PvP
And nobody is advocating for that...
Ehm.. What? If the system was to kick in at a certain bounty limit, I'm pretty sure that's forcing them into it
No. It isn't.
If the maximum tax rate is %40, but it only kicks in at $100k/year, but you only make $99.9k/year, is the government forcing you to pay the highest tax rate?
(Obviously not real numbers.)
It's forcing you to choose between limiting your income and paying a higher rate of tax. Perhaps you'd be happy to tell your boss that you'd be foregoing your pay rise until the tax rates changed. Otherwise, to get the complete salary that your job merited you'd be forced to pay the higher tax rate.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »The difference here is that since she is bored, she can stop or take a break, without interference from others.. If she still dislike it, she can move to something else.. IF she wanted to fight others, she could tick the box and go at it.. All of her own free will..
Nothing in your example calls for, or justifies, forcing PvP down the throat of people who does not want PvP
or most specifically nothing says adding a pvp-interference would make it any more interesting for her or for others.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
LaiTash✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »So you waited about 20 posts before taking the thief side.. Could have saved some time if that had happened sooner That still does not change anything though
I was taking that side since my very first post here. I'm really a non-violent person who just seeks thrill and challenge, and more interaction with other players, which i think is absolutely normal for someone who was waiting for some specific MMORPG for nearly 20 years and was expecting it to actually be massive and multiplayer.0 -
cjthibs✭✭✭✭✭
✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »...Nothing in your example calls for, or justifies, forcing PvP down the throat of people who does not want PvP
And nobody is advocating for that...
Ehm.. What? If the system was to kick in at a certain bounty limit, I'm pretty sure that's forcing them into it
No. It isn't.
If the maximum tax rate is %40, but it only kicks in at $100k/year, but you only make $99.9k/year, is the government forcing you to pay the highest tax rate?
(Obviously not real numbers.)
It's forcing you to choose between limiting your income and paying a higher rate of tax. Perhaps you'd be happy to tell your boss that you'd be foregoing your pay rise until the tax rates changed. Otherwise, to get the complete salary that your job merited you'd be forced to pay the higher tax rate.
Yes, forcing you to make a choice. Except in this case there is no additional benefit to maintaining a higher bounty, unless you -want- to open yourself up for PvP. You can just as easily go off and clear the bounty, and then carry on.
The point is that it isn't forcing you to participate in PvP, not even close.
...and strangely enough I know people who have done exactly that to avoid higher taxes. A little off-topic, but interesting.0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭massive and multiplayer.
Well it is It's quite big for an online game, with a lot of people in it 0 -
LaiTash✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »And has anyone ever claimed that PvP thiefs should get better loot?
I did, because it's quite self-evident that more risk should lead to a better reward.
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Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »And has anyone ever claimed that PvP thiefs should get better loot?
I did, because it's quite self-evident that more risk should lead to a better reward.
Bad idea, since you would only cause the trouble you said you were afraid of.. If there was to be anything beside the things you stole, let them earn alliance points instead.. Like in regular PvP0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »...Nothing in your example calls for, or justifies, forcing PvP down the throat of people who does not want PvP
And nobody is advocating for that...
Ehm.. What? If the system was to kick in at a certain bounty limit, I'm pretty sure that's forcing them into it
No. It isn't.
If the maximum tax rate is %40, but it only kicks in at $100k/year, but you only make $99.9k/year, is the government forcing you to pay the highest tax rate?
(Obviously not real numbers.)
It's forcing you to choose between limiting your income and paying a higher rate of tax. Perhaps you'd be happy to tell your boss that you'd be foregoing your pay rise until the tax rates changed. Otherwise, to get the complete salary that your job merited you'd be forced to pay the higher tax rate.
the currency here is PLAYTIME.
A bounty limit before PVP takeover simply means if you aren't at a certain skill or aptitude or able to do all the content from day one in their sleep like the rich supermodel girlfriends of the posters here... you end up limiting the amoutn of time you plat at the bounty producing activities to some level these other guys have decided is fair for you before they get to kick your ...
yeah right.
or, you know, the system could be ADDED as a consensual thing and those who wanted PVE justice could play that, those who wanted PVP justice could play that and those in between could leave the option open but reserve the right to say "no, today i am tagged as open for it sure, but not right now" or "no you aren't someone i play with" just like the restrictions they gave to the ADDED feature for dueling when they implemented it without taking away any PVE options at all.
But this system must include a takeaway for some apparently. the PVE crowd must give up something or else they wont be happy, it seems for some.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
LaiTash✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »massive and multiplayer.
Well it is It's quite big for an online game, with a lot of people in it
No it's not. Yes, there are people in towns to (reduce your framerate), yes you can do dungeons with other players (feature common to many single-player games), yes you can trade with other players and you can RP. That's practically all. If that defines a MMORPG for you, well... you probably didn't see the best examples. Oh, there's also cyrodiil, but that's a completely different game and it's more like moba then mmorpg.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »So you waited about 20 posts before taking the thief side.. Could have saved some time if that had happened sooner That still does not change anything though
I was taking that side since my very first post here. I'm really a non-violent person who just seeks thrill and challenge, and more interaction with other players, which i think is absolutely normal for someone who was waiting for some specific MMORPG for nearly 20 years and was expecting it to actually be massive and multiplayer.[/quote]
it is massive and multiplayer it just doesn't remove the player's ability to choose who they participate with.
hence that whole consensual thing.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
LaiTash✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Bad idea, since you would only cause the trouble you said you were afraid of.. If there was
to be anything beside the things you stole, let them earn alliance points instead.. Like in regular PvP
Not everyone wants alliance points. And actually, why are you worried about how other people will get better rewards? I take it you're not into PvP so other people having any well-deserved advantage over you shouldn't bother you at all.
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Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »massive and multiplayer.
Well it is It's quite big for an online game, with a lot of people in it
No it's not. Yes, there are people in towns to (reduce your framerate), yes you can do dungeons with other players (feature common to many single-player games), yes you can trade with other players and you can RP. That's practically all. If that defines a MMORPG for you, well... you probably didn't see the best examples. Oh, there's also cyrodiil, but that's a completely different game and it's more like moba then mmorpg.
1: If you do dungeons with other players, it's not really single player anymore
2: You are free to group up with players for quests, dolmens and all the other stuff that the game offers you.. It may not be as challenging, but that's what you make it, and not really something to bring into this discussion.. And that there are enough of them to reduce your framerate, just means that there probably is a decent group of them
3: Cyrodill IS what PvP is in this game, not another gameEdited by Daemons_Bane on September 29, 2016 8:39PM0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »...Nothing in your example calls for, or justifies, forcing PvP down the throat of people who does not want PvP
And nobody is advocating for that...
Ehm.. What? If the system was to kick in at a certain bounty limit, I'm pretty sure that's forcing them into it
No. It isn't.
If the maximum tax rate is %40, but it only kicks in at $100k/year, but you only make $99.9k/year, is the government forcing you to pay the highest tax rate?
(Obviously not real numbers.)
It's forcing you to choose between limiting your income and paying a higher rate of tax. Perhaps you'd be happy to tell your boss that you'd be foregoing your pay rise until the tax rates changed. Otherwise, to get the complete salary that your job merited you'd be forced to pay the higher tax rate.
Yes, forcing you to make a choice. Except in this case there is no additional benefit to maintaining a higher bounty, unless you -want- to open yourself up for PvP. You can just as easily go off and clear the bounty, and then carry on.
The point is that it isn't forcing you to participate in PvP, not even close.
...and strangely enough I know people who have done exactly that to avoid higher taxes. A little off-topic, but interesting.
Currently if i have accrued a high bounty i can choose to keep playing injustice content or go off and clear my bounty without the addition of PVP-interference.
You seem to be proposing taking away that option to continue my high bounty play without threat of PVP instead of allowing a choice for those who want to to ADD the PVP threat if they find it enjoyable.
Why is it critical for you that the PVE crowd lose that choice to continue PVE injustice with the high bounty if you are to get your PVP option?
Why is the takeaway from PVE so key?
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."2 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »Daemons_Bane wrote: »And has anyone ever claimed that PvP thiefs should get better loot?
I did, because it's quite self-evident that more risk should lead to a better reward.
Bad idea, since you would only cause the trouble you said you were afraid of.. If there was to be anything beside the things you stole, let them earn alliance points instead.. Like in regular PvP
ZOS made it pretty clear - no Ap outside of cyrodil because of the potential for abuse as two players collude together.
But to be clear about risk: if i get kjilled by a guard NPC or fight most any PVE adversary, my armor gets hit and i suffer expenses.
No PVP deaths provide any such risk.
the enforcers in the examples given seem to also have no risk.
So the degree to which there is increased risk at the addition of PVP-interference is nebulous at best.
Risk of driving off PVE players from the content - sure.
but how much additional risk for reward there is for the criminal or the guard... that gets into the details.
Saw one where the guards could not even bet attacked before they started it, so no option for thieves to spot an approaching "enforcer" and take them out so they can continue stealing.
yeah... uh huh... its PVE players who dont want risk... yeah right.
Edited by STEVIL on September 29, 2016 8:48PMProudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
LaiTash✭✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »1: If you do dungeons with other players, it's not really single player anymore
Battlespire had coop mode, but it didn't make it a mmo.2: You are free to group up with players for quests, dolmens and all the other stuff that the game offers you..
In this game, i hate it when i've just found a perfectly empty dolmen, initiate a fight and SUDDENLY A GROUP OF PLAYERS POP IN and make extremely unchallenging content even less challenging. Then they go away and not even a handshake. Or worse - when i do some quest and that group of players appears (what? Who are all these people? What are they doing here? There shouldn't be anyone but me...).3: Cyrodill IS what PvP is in this game, not another game
It's effectively an another game. Even more, it's another genre.Edited by LaiTash on September 29, 2016 8:49PM0 -
Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeah but as mentioned, thief risk vs enforcer risk is probably an entire discussion in itself.. I do agree that the risk should be bigger for the thief, as he is the one breaking the law.. BUT, I don't think it should be risk free for the enforcers either1 -
I_killed_Vivec✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Daemons_Bane wrote: »The difference here is that since she is bored, she can stop or take a break, without interference from others.. If she still dislike it, she can move to something else..
Right now, moving to something else is the only thing she could do. Good thing she didn't move to another MMO. Now, if there were the enforcer part of the system and you dislike it, you could move to something else as well you know...IF she wanted to fight others, she could tick the box and go at it.. All of her own free will..
If that how it's going to work, there will be complaints about how PvP-enabled thieves get better loot, i'm 100% certain of it. This, or everyone switch to this mode, rendering the checkbox useless.
Nobody, but nobody, comes to the game and says "It's rubbish because stealing is too easy".
Or if they do then they made a big mistake buying an Elder Scrools Game.
And if someone who was going to leave will stay just because PvP justice gives the opportunity to maybe, sometimes, catch or be caught and have a PvP duel... then maybe they should have been directed to Cyrodiil a bit earlier!
There are reasons why ZoS decided to move away from implementing PvP Justice.
- Not many people want it;
- It's a griefer's paradise;
- It's very complicated to implement - it's proven to be impossible for people on this thread to come up with a coherent set of rules.
Even if they make it so you have to opt in to PvP Justice, even if there's a bounty threshold before it kicks in for those who have opted in, even then there are added complications involved with having the two systems running along side each other.
Not least the tears of a ganker who has spent hours staking out a DB quest target only to find out that the perp hasn't opted in to PvP Justice
(I've always wondered, and nobody has ever told me even though I've asked, why people who want to be PvP "enforcers" don't fight the gankers in Cyrodiil who lay in wait to ambush people handing in quests, or clear out the gankers in IC. Aren;t they busy already?)
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Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭(I've always wondered, and nobody has ever told me even though I've asked, why people who want to be PvP "enforcers" don't fight the gankers in Cyrodiil who lay in wait to ambush people handing in quests, or clear out the gankers in IC. Aren;t they busy already?)
Well I could imagine that sometimes a change of scenery could be cool Plus it opens up a lot of RP events where you can stage some cool city fights 1