Transairion wrote: »You can do normal mode for same reward and lower difficulty....where's the problem?
That's like saying Veteran Maw of Lorkjaw and Normal Maw of Lorkjaw "give the same reward". It's not at all true.
Normal Mode Pledges in Update 12 will give, at max, 3 keys per day (that's with DLC). 0% chance at Monster Helms. So that's 3 Monster Shoulders per day, that you'll never be able to use without doing Vet or getting lucky with the Golden Vendor.
You can get monsterhelmets from normal dungeons...atleast you can from the SotH-Dungeons.
oh and btw. the only difference between normal and vetMoL is goldjewelry instead of purple...which is like 300...400 extra-Stats....AMAZING!!!
At the PAX panel, the devs stated that there won't be any monster helmets dropping from normal modes.
Not sure if they will apply this also to the SotH dungeons, but it seems only logical to do so.
Rewards are:
Normal: 1 key
Veteran: 1 key + guaranteed monster helmet
Veteran (hard mode): 2 keys + guaranteed monster helmet
You know why that's the case most people just farm the first boss for the shackle that's why the new DLc dungeons don't have a similar token system.Am pretty sure people can beat the content they just choose the easy way out.This is a data decision. Most players are not min maxed. They acknowledged at PAX this last weekend that pre nerf COA, WFT, ICP were NOT being done by most players when it was the pledge. Even after the nerf it was still not being done as part of pledges it also was not being completed by those that were attempting it. They are not going to change the difficulty of a dungeon because 4 people or a 104 people thought it was too easy. if YOU want a challenge take your CP out of your own character or run 300 or 160 or zero. Knock yourself out.
How is that enforceable? Prevent multi-role selection? But I can tank, heal or dps just fine on the one character (with some gear-swaps), so I'm going to queue up as any of the three. I won't multi-role in dungeon unless after the first boss I see we're going smoothly (usually heal + off dps).Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »2) no dual roles. I have had more bad experiences than good with the role multivitamin. They do a little of both but not enough of either.
I still feel that's because with exception of CoA, WGT and ICP, all the others were that watered down that you could get away without doing much in them, so when CoA, WGT and ICP required you to actually not stand in red, or actually deal with game mechanics, vs just fumble through.This is a data decision. Most players are not min maxed. They acknowledged at PAX this last weekend that pre nerf COA, WFT, ICP were NOT being done by most players when it was the pledge. Even after the nerf it was still not being done as part of pledges it also was not being completed by those that were attempting it.
Challenge accepted - Vet Wayrest 1, CP160 scale.They are not going to change the difficulty of a dungeon because 4 people or a 104 people thought it was too easy. if YOU want a challenge take your CP out of your own character or run 300 or 160 or zero. Knock yourself out.
How is that enforceable? Prevent multi-role selection? But I can tank, heal or dps just fine on the one character (with some gear-swaps), so I'm going to queue up as any of the three. I won't multi-role in dungeon unless after the first boss I see we're going smoothly (usually heal + off dps).Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »2) no dual roles. I have had more bad experiences than good with the role multivitamin. They do a little of both but not enough of either.I still feel that's because with exception of CoA, WGT and ICP, all the others were that watered down that you could get away without doing much in them, so when CoA, WGT and ICP required you to actually not stand in red, or actually deal with game mechanics, vs just fumble through.This is a data decision. Most players are not min maxed. They acknowledged at PAX this last weekend that pre nerf COA, WFT, ICP were NOT being done by most players when it was the pledge. Even after the nerf it was still not being done as part of pledges it also was not being completed by those that were attempting it.Challenge accepted - Vet Wayrest 1, CP160 scale.They are not going to change the difficulty of a dungeon because 4 people or a 104 people thought it was too easy. if YOU want a challenge take your CP out of your own character or run 300 or 160 or zero. Knock yourself out.
Despite dungeon scaling to 160cp, I removed all but 60cp total (20 in each red/blue/green), made crafted 160 gear from 3 and 4 trait sets, blue quality with purple glyphs (rekuta is cheap), grabbed offtrait willpower rings (also cheap on NA) and walked into Vet Wayrest 1. Managed to get to final boss with only 2 wipes but then quit to go sleep - Allene hits a bit hard in 5L/2H when I'm attempting to dps, not die, while eating her heavy attacks to my face.
Given I was by myself for something that is 4-person intended, at what point does the 'but CP and gear!' argument become outright 'wrong'?
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »A bigger question is, at what point does the ''increase the difficulty' complaint become right?
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »A bigger question is, at what point does the ''increase the difficulty' complaint become right?
Oh stop it with the inane slippery slope arguments. Nobody is asking for Vet Wayrest 1 to be buffed to vICP levels of difficulty. What we are asking for is for there to be a meaningful distinction between Normal and Veteran modes. For some content, there is too wide a gap between those modes (vMA). For some content, like the "new" vet dungeons, there is too narrow a gap. All we want is some sensible balance in the difficulty, and you're the one spewing hyperbole.
Normal mode ensures that the content is always accessible. The whole point of Veteran mode is to give people something to challenge themselves with. Because challenge is how people improve and progress. We don't need for there to be too much challenge--and it's perfectly fine if a good group can faceroll it--but when people can do it with common gear, low CP, and no group at all, that's what I'd call extreme. And remember, there's still Normal mode.
If I was asking for them to be buffed to DLC dungeon levels, sure, that would be a valid statement. But I'm not, and I don't think anyone in this thread is.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »you are still repurposing content for a very small part of the playerbase
If someone is doing a dungeon for their very first time, they should not be using Vet mode. That's what the Normal dungeons are for. You know what happened the very first time I tried a vet dungeon? We couldn't get past Gamyne in vFG and gave up. And you know what? That's okay, because it was a wakeup call to me that said, "You've got a lot to learn." And I went back to doing Normal dungeons. Until I got better and decided to try my hand at Vet dungeons again.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »The veteran content is still challenging for people who dont know what the endgame do.
If I was asking for them to be buffed to DLC dungeon levels, sure, that would be a valid statement. But I'm not, and I don't think anyone in this thread is.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »you are still repurposing content for a very small part of the playerbaseIf someone is doing a dungeon for their very first time, they should not be using Vet mode. That's what the Normal dungeons are for. You know what happened the very first time I tried a vet dungeon? We couldn't get past Gamyne in vFG and gave up. And you know what? That's okay, because it was a wakeup call to me that said, "You've got a lot to learn." And I went back to doing Normal dungeons. Until I got better and decided to try my hand at Vet dungeons again.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »The veteran content is still challenging for people who dont know what the endgame do.
You act as if someone failing a dungeon is the end of the world. There is no satisfaction in victory if you never lose. No sense of accomplishment if you were never at risk of failing. And no drive to get better if there isn't something to challenge you. That's what veteran content is for. And it doesn't have to be for everyone--someone who just farms and RPs and who has no interest in getting better still have their Normal dungeons. At least now you can still do the quest, get the skill point, and experience the story without ever setting foot into a Veteran instance.
The very definition of "Veteran" suggests that it's meant for the seasoned player. Newcomers shouldn't be in Vet--they should be gaining experience in Normal. I sound like a bloody broken record at this point: If Veteran content is that easy, then what is the point of having separate Normal and Veteran modes? This is something I bring up in almost every post, but none of you detractors have ever addressed.
The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.
Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC) Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC) Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP) Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD) J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD) |
Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC) Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP) Manut Redguard Temp (AD) Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP) Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD) |
Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP) Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC) Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP) Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC) Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp |
The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.
That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.
Honestly, even just increasing the damage done by the existing mechanics may be enough. Everything hits like a wet noodle. Our tank sat there for a while doing nothing and standing in the red while holding aggro on the 2 final bosses of "vet" Crypt of Hearts I while the healer and I sat back and watched (without healing) and his health bar barely moved at all. I would expect that in a non-vet dungeon. That should never happen in a vet dungeon, and it never would in a real vet dungeon - even the easier ones like Wayrest.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.
That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.
Okay. Lets sit down and give them new mechanics, just like everyone keeps shouting for. What should we give them? I want to hear, what you would give them in order to make them truely 'veteran'. This is completely factoring out development time, current set deadlines, and everything else. (And even that's being generous considering nobody wants to debate the elephant in the room that is this games fundemental design.)
Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC) Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC) Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP) Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD) J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD) |
Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC) Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP) Manut Redguard Temp (AD) Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP) Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD) |
Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP) Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC) Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP) Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC) Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp |
Honestly, even just increasing the damage done by the existing mechanics may be enough. Everything hits like a wet noodle. Our tank sat there for a while doing nothing and standing in the red while holding aggro on the 2 final bosses of "vet" Crypt of Hearts I while the healer and I sat back and watched (without healing) and his health bar barely moved at all. I would expect that in a non-vet dungeon. That should never happen in a vet dungeon, and it never would in a real vet dungeon - even the easier ones like Wayrest.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.
That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.
Okay. Lets sit down and give them new mechanics, just like everyone keeps shouting for. What should we give them? I want to hear, what you would give them in order to make them truely 'veteran'. This is completely factoring out development time, current set deadlines, and everything else. (And even that's being generous considering nobody wants to debate the elephant in the room that is this games fundemental design.)
MaddPowered wrote: »Are you and your teammates min/maxers? That's probably why it's easy lol
We are all 531 cp and we breezed through every dungeon.
We did come prepared with the regular trial tank, trial healer and trial DPS set up expecting it to be hard.
I still do think it should be buffed. It is not much of a challenge.
Dude, why do you think it wasn't much of a challenge? You're all maxed and you all had characters specifically built for your roles. Other players who are much more relaxed than you won't share the same experience nor opinion.
Sure, have any of the red AOEs do damage that increases the longer you stand in them. Maybe set it so that each consecutive damage tick does 15% more damage than the previous one. In that dungeon, as the DPS I stopped bothering to get out of AOEs because they simply weren't a threat (even though our healer was barely bothering to do any healing at all). Doing something like that would teach people that you need to get out of the red, but not overly punish people who aren't super quick on the draw.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Honestly, even just increasing the damage done by the existing mechanics may be enough. Everything hits like a wet noodle. Our tank sat there for a while doing nothing and standing in the red while holding aggro on the 2 final bosses of "vet" Crypt of Hearts I while the healer and I sat back and watched (without healing) and his health bar barely moved at all. I would expect that in a non-vet dungeon. That should never happen in a vet dungeon, and it never would in a real vet dungeon - even the easier ones like Wayrest.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.
That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.
Okay. Lets sit down and give them new mechanics, just like everyone keeps shouting for. What should we give them? I want to hear, what you would give them in order to make them truely 'veteran'. This is completely factoring out development time, current set deadlines, and everything else. (And even that's being generous considering nobody wants to debate the elephant in the room that is this games fundemental design.)
Depending on just how much this increase is, I dont think I'd have a problem with that. The real fear is, for me, just how much of the 'meta free zone' that dungeons are right now that we can preserve. I'm not saying we should just let every DPS with 14 K health in, I'm saying that a build slightly unconventional shouldn't be punished for that, and that's my real fear.
Mind giving me like a specific example? Like specific mechanics, the damage, and the damage increase. That sort of example.
Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC) Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC) Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP) Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD) J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD) |
Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC) Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP) Manut Redguard Temp (AD) Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP) Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD) |
Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP) Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC) Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP) Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC) Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp |
Sure, have any of the red AOEs do damage that increases the longer you stand in them. Maybe set it so that each consecutive damage tick does 15% more damage than the previous one. In that dungeon, as the DPS I stopped bothering to get out of AOEs because they simply weren't a threat (even though our healer was barely bothering to do any healing at all). Doing something like that would teach people that you need to get out of the red, but not overly punish people who aren't super quick on the draw.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Honestly, even just increasing the damage done by the existing mechanics may be enough. Everything hits like a wet noodle. Our tank sat there for a while doing nothing and standing in the red while holding aggro on the 2 final bosses of "vet" Crypt of Hearts I while the healer and I sat back and watched (without healing) and his health bar barely moved at all. I would expect that in a non-vet dungeon. That should never happen in a vet dungeon, and it never would in a real vet dungeon - even the easier ones like Wayrest.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »The point that you're missing is that no, with these dungeons it isn't. They appear to have just added health to the enemies. The difficulty really isn't any higher than the non-vet version. A group capable of doing non-vet Banished Cells I without struggling will be just as capable of doing vet Banished Cells I, even if they aren't close to being seasoned enough to complete Banished Cells II.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »As for the 'vet should be for seasoned players', your right. It should. And it is.
That's the problem. That's what people in this thread are arguing against. The new vet dungeons aren't vet. And the people like you who are arguing that the difficulty doesn't need to be increased keep failing to address that. We aren't asking for them to be as tough as vet ICP. We (for the most part) aren't even asking for them to be as tough as the original non-DLC vet dungeons. We just want them to be tougher than the non-vet dungeons, and something that helps people progress to being able to do real vet dungeons.
Okay. Lets sit down and give them new mechanics, just like everyone keeps shouting for. What should we give them? I want to hear, what you would give them in order to make them truely 'veteran'. This is completely factoring out development time, current set deadlines, and everything else. (And even that's being generous considering nobody wants to debate the elephant in the room that is this games fundemental design.)
Depending on just how much this increase is, I dont think I'd have a problem with that. The real fear is, for me, just how much of the 'meta free zone' that dungeons are right now that we can preserve. I'm not saying we should just let every DPS with 14 K health in, I'm saying that a build slightly unconventional shouldn't be punished for that, and that's my real fear.
Mind giving me like a specific example? Like specific mechanics, the damage, and the damage increase. That sort of example.
Hell, our healer did most (maybe all?) of the dungeon without a food buff, so I'm pretty sure her health was 12K or so for almost the entire dungeon. And the only time she died was when she literally stopped paying attention and was reading Twitch chat and talking to people there.
As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.
Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.
Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC) Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC) Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP) Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD) J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD) |
Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC) Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP) Manut Redguard Temp (AD) Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP) Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD) |
Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP) Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC) Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP) Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC) Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp |
As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.
Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.
As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.
Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.
Hardmode challenges always add an extra mechanic too, not just health increase. There's usually a damage increase too.
Bogdan, for example, adds white ghosts that channel healing to Bogdan. They must be killed or damage must outpace healing. Molag Kena, another example, speeds up the movement of the lightning walls (which are typically fatal for most dps), as well increasing the DoT damage that the walls apply if they touch someone.
For hardmode trials, the implications are substantially more trying than simply extending the duration of the fight. Like the Warrior, for example, who can deal up to 30k damage in a single attack, even to a tank.
All of these examples are for endgame instances, however. I just wanted to note that b/c this post could appear as contradictory to my post further up, which claims a lack of mechanics and challenge in overworld content.
As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.
Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.
Hardmode challenges always add an extra mechanic too, not just health increase. There's usually a damage increase too.
Bogdan, for example, adds white ghosts that channel healing to Bogdan. They must be killed or damage must outpace healing. Molag Kena, another example, speeds up the movement of the lightning walls (which are typically fatal for most dps), as well increasing the DoT damage that the walls apply if they touch someone.
For hardmode trials, the implications are substantially more trying than simply extending the duration of the fight. Like the Warrior, for example, who can deal up to 30k damage in a single attack, even to a tank.
All of these examples are for endgame instances, however. I just wanted to note that b/c this post could appear as contradictory to my post further up, which claims a lack of mechanics and challenge in overworld content.
For the two "new" vets that I did on the PTS (Vaults and Blackheart), HM just added health. I didn't observe any new mechanics, so it's not like the HMs that we are all used to in other instances.
I was talking about the new vet versions of the old non-vet dungeons. As far as I can tell all they do is add health to the boss, but I haven't done all of them.As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.
Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.
Hardmode challenges always add an extra mechanic too, not just health increase. There's usually a damage increase too.
Bogdan, for example, adds white ghosts that channel healing to Bogdan. They must be killed or damage must outpace healing. Molag Kena, another example, speeds up the movement of the lightning walls (which are typically fatal for most dps), as well increasing the DoT damage that the walls apply if they touch someone.
For hardmode trials, the implications are substantially more trying than simply extending the duration of the fight. Like the Warrior, for example, who can deal up to 30k damage in a single attack, even to a tank.
All of these examples are for endgame instances, however. I just wanted to note that b/c this post could appear as contradictory to my post further up, which claims a lack of mechanics and challenge in overworld content.
Caius Drusus Imperial DK (DC) Bragg Ironhand Orc Temp (DC) Neesha Stalks-Shadows Argonian NB (EP) Falidir Altmer Sorcr (AD) J'zharka Khajiit NB (AD) |
Isabeau Runeseer Breton Sorc (DC) Fevassa Dunmer DK (EP) Manut Redguard Temp (AD) Tylera the Summoner Altmer Sorc (EP) Svari Snake-Blood Nord DK (AD) |
Ashlyn D'Elyse Breton NB (EP) Filindria Bosmer Temp (DC) Vigbjorn the Wanderer Nord Warden (EP) Hrokki Winterborn Breton Warden (DC) Basks-in-the-Sunshine Argonian Temp |
I was talking about the new vet versions of the old non-vet dungeons. As far as I can tell all they do is add health to the boss, but I haven't done all of them.As near as I can tell the only thing hard mode does is increase the health of the final boss. It's not a challenge, it just makes the fight last longer.Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »Not sure why hard mode isn't activated at the beginning of a dungeon to increase the difficulty of everything.
Then we could have normal for everyone (of all level). Vet for average players (who have CP) so they can accomplish gold key/helms. And hard mode for the hardcore players who want that kind of challenge.
Hardmode challenges always add an extra mechanic too, not just health increase. There's usually a damage increase too.
Bogdan, for example, adds white ghosts that channel healing to Bogdan. They must be killed or damage must outpace healing. Molag Kena, another example, speeds up the movement of the lightning walls (which are typically fatal for most dps), as well increasing the DoT damage that the walls apply if they touch someone.
For hardmode trials, the implications are substantially more trying than simply extending the duration of the fight. Like the Warrior, for example, who can deal up to 30k damage in a single attack, even to a tank.
All of these examples are for endgame instances, however. I just wanted to note that b/c this post could appear as contradictory to my post further up, which claims a lack of mechanics and challenge in overworld content.
Transairion wrote: »I don't have any issue with the "new" (well, old but boosted stats) dungeons being easy, simply because it means more people will complete them and more people will be running pledges as a result.
The DLC dungeons are hard. Veteran ICP itself breaks my Sorceror Pet-build outright (they literally desummon). And it's okay to have hard things, but they're only 4 dungeons. The other dungeons number into the dozen/s, and they're base game content. If they all as hard as the DLC dungeons, Pledge participation will fall off the map and there'll be no point. DLC Pledge days are already a no-man's land people actively avoid, and I'd say it's a safe bet the majority of pledge-takers don't actually do them: simply because there's hard enough getting 4 random people together, even if they're good at their roles will struggle unless they've already done it heaps of times before.
We don't need base game content to be hard, we need it to be doable without it being a struggle for the base game players. While I'm glad you found it face-roll easy, I'm going to hazard a guess if they shifted it to live right now not every group would find it as face-roll easy as you did. I mean there are people who find the Vet Hist Dungeons face-roll easy too.
Compare what you're asking to something SWTOR did: on PTS they invited several top-tier raiding guilds to do the content, who of course found it faceroll easy and successfully got the content buffed to their liking.
The end result when the patch hit? Normal Mode was so hard 90% of the playerbase couldn't finish it, and Hard Mode only the guilds that tested it on the PTS even bothered to attempt it. The feedback resulted in a horrible experience and months of new content being utterly wasted, until nerf after nerf finally made it doable by a lot of players.
We don't want that here at all. We want content most of us can actually do, not tailor-made for the 1% best players.
In short: "New" Vet dungeons being easy is ok, because then most of the playerbase will be able to finish it. Making them too hard kills Pledge participation.
Nice. Although I can't talk - my first vet dungeon (vFG at ~VR3) our group barely made it to the second trash pack Back then though no-one complained (too?) hardly about it and we all walked away realising that we might actually need to learn to gear better and with things that actually complemented how we play.You know what happened the very first time I tried a vet dungeon? We couldn't get past Gamyne in vFG and gave up.
IMO that would be a nice start. Make the red actually hurt - I was being hit for only ~7-11k in 5 light for that vWayrest1 run if I didn't block. Hard dungeons seems like it's 'hard' because there's no real curve between the easy and hard dungeons, and people either don't care or don't have the knowledge that 5 heavy and weapon dmg bonuses on a magicka dps really isn't the best idea. TBH once you throw in some CP, outside of the DLC dungeons and vet trials, there's no real incentive to learn that either thus we end up in a downwards spiral.Honestly, even just increasing the damage done by the existing mechanics may be enough. Everything hits like a wet noodle. Our tank sat there for a while doing nothing and standing in the red while holding aggro on the 2 final bosses of "vet" Crypt of Hearts I while the healer and I sat back and watched (without healing) and his health bar barely moved at all. I would expect that in a non-vet dungeon. That should never happen in a vet dungeon, and it never would in a real vet dungeon - even the easier ones like Wayrest.
...
1. red circles = bad
2. yellow power attack = block or dodge
3. red power attack = bash or dodge
...