Bugs and Ninja Nerfing: lightning staff, Fighter's guild, speed, and pets... What else?

Minno · September 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

I am all for bug fixing, but when a bug makes gameplay better than the intended design, I don't think you should change it,

perhaps we could get lightning staves back to how they were? It offered some pretty cool diversity between staves, cause now ice and lightning are pretty much useless

If we can keep the lighting splash dmg, lighting staves could be very useful in conjunction with wall of elements and the weapon ultimate to provide lots of AoE. That morph always applies concussion (minor maim 15% dmg reduction for 4 seconds) and sets up for enemies to be off balance (for our stamina brothers to do extra dmg against) if you can keep them in your WoE. For pvp, I see a use during keep defense.

silky_soft · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We can confirm that the change to the Lightning Staff AoE proc was intended.

Can you tell them to reverse it please. THanks

James-Wayne · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We can confirm that the change to the Lightning Staff AoE proc was intended.

Thanks for the feedback however are you able to explain why its intended because clearly no one here sees the logic behind the decision?

When confirming changes a short explanation to the change (where possible) would go a long way to the community.

iam117 · September 2016

Balderdash.

Drummerx04 · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We can confirm that the change to the Lightning Staff AoE proc was intended.

Well. I think I can officially speak for everyone when I say this sucks a lot. I've been having a lot of fun playing as a lightning sorc. lightning form, liquid lightning, blockade of storms, mage's fury, lightning heavy attack. The damage was nice, but the aesthetics and flow of my build were really well done. And now it's gone. I can keep the build, but it's just going to deal maybe half as much damage if I'm lucky. We enjoy having lightning staves as a reasonable choice in end game...

So good thing I didn't just spend 200k+ gold shifting gear around to improve my lightning build... oh wait.

@ZOS_GinaBruno Can you now tell us whether we can get ANY say in this whatsoever? I don't mean to be coy in this case. I actually want to know if there is any chance of this not making it all the way to live.

Literally EVERYONE who uses a lightning staff in pvp/pve is going to notice and they are going to hate it.

Lava_Croft · September 2016

While in essence a nerf, let's not make the mistake of trying to hold on to a bug just because Magicka builds are underpowered.

code65536 · September 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

While in essence a nerf, let's not make the mistake of trying to hold on to a bug just because Magicka builds are underpowered.

It was a good bug. A smart developer would've recognized that, relabeled it as a feature, and patted themselves on the back for having done a good job by accident.

Lava_Croft · September 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

While in essence a nerf, let's not make the mistake of trying to hold on to a bug just because Magicka builds are underpowered.

It was a good bug. A smart developer would've recognized that, relabeled it as a feature, and patted themselves on the back for having done a good job by accident.

It's only a good bug to people because the bug benefits them. Bugs need to be fixed and if the results of the fix are in fact a nerf to whatever you fixed, you look at that and see if it needs a buff.

KingYogi415 · September 2016

Can someone test if the vma lighting staff still procs a whole group of mobs with Aether? I was expecting this to get fixed, but a nerf to all lighting staffs is a joke!

Lucky28 · September 2016

SleepyTroll wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Just letting those on PTS know lightning staff heavy attack AoE effect was reduced to only procs on the final hit.
Can someone point to me where it says this in the patch notes?
If anyone else comes across excluded changes please post on the forums, I am looking for more.

This was a bug, it was always only supposed to do the aoe at the end of the heavy attack. the tooltip even said that.

it may not have been intended. it did however, make the lightning staff useful. taking that channel AOE away..... well people aren't gonna use the lightning staff anymore as nothing else about the Lightning staff is actually any good.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

While in essence a nerf, let's not make the mistake of trying to hold on to a bug just because Magicka builds are underpowered.

It was a good bug. A smart developer would've recognized that, relabeled it as a feature, and patted themselves on the back for having done a good job by accident.

It's only a good bug to people because the bug benefits them. Bugs need to be fixed and if the results of the fix are in fact a nerf to whatever you fixed, you look at that and see if it needs a buff.

i don't use lightning staffs, i use flame and ice staffs. still it was a good bug and it didn't benefit me. lmao

Derra · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We can confirm that the change to the Lightning Staff AoE proc was intended.

@ZOS_GinaBruno would you mind asking those guys what the intention behind those changes was?

There is absolutely no reason to use anything but a fire staff in pve when this goes live. Even now firestaves are still BIS for most builds.

Why are you changing something that was not overperforming but instead brought variety to the game and made one of the unused destro staff elements relevant for the first time since release?

Would anyone of you people mind explaining the thoughtprocess behind this change - because as it stands just confirming that it was intended does not help at all. We all thought it was intended in the first place because it was such a specific change.
The question raised is: WHY?

Edit: @Wrobel (always makes me giggle) is there any intention to revamp destruction staves so lighting and ice finally become relevant in any way in the future or are you going to continue to treat those as the red headed stepchilds between all the skills that "feel like your babies"?

Derra · September 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

While in essence a nerf, let's not make the mistake of trying to hold on to a bug just because Magicka builds are underpowered.

While it may be a bug or maybe not bc fully channeled means the first tick of the attack for every other mechanic aswell - it´s current live mechanic does not impact people negatively. They can just keep it as a feature that brings variety to the game.

A bug that does need fixing is cloak making projectiles miss even though i popped a detection potion. That is something that needs to be fixed.

DHale · September 2016

Bad decision.... Very unfortunate. One step forward six steps back.

Flaminir · September 2016

@Wrobel has previously said he wants to provide more 'compelling choices' when it comes to magicka weapons.... yet the actions of this nerf/bug fix clearly show the polar opposite.

I agree with the comments above, that I would be very interested in hearing the rationale behind the choice to nerf this.

Apherius · September 2016

SleepyTroll wrote: »

SirMewser wrote: »

Just letting those on PTS know lightning staff heavy attack AoE effect was reduced to only procs on the final hit.
Can someone point to me where it says this in the patch notes?
If anyone else comes across excluded changes please post on the forums, I am looking for more.

This was a bug, it was always only supposed to do the aoe at the end of the heavy attack. the tooltip even said that.

3 years of bug on this staff ? thank Z.O.S

Please , now sorcerer stay behind all class magicka/stamina , for AOE ... ( don't talk be about the DK magicka plz ... he have more fire damage ... so ... his destruction staff aoe do more damage .)

Tyrion87 · September 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for your patience. We can confirm that the change to the Lightning Staff AoE proc was intended.

Omg so this is another nerf to magicka builds (?!) as if they needed another nerf...

And it doesn't matter whether this AOE proc on lighting staves was a mistake (which has to be fixed now) or not. This AOE proc was the only reason why some people have decided to use this staff over the flame one. Not to mention the frost staff which nobody uses, at least not for its utility. You have just actually said that you intentionally reduced the variety of choices for magicka builds

So basically I find your decisions ZOS as having to convince players to use only the flame staff (if only you're stupid enough to bother with magicka in this game....), while the other elements have to be regarded the same as gear with bad trait: if you get frost/lighting staff, just keep looking for the flame one.

If only you knew how many players you have lost due to irresponsible, illogical and incompetent decisions of Wrobel with regard to balance... What this game needs the most at the moment is to hire another person who would be in charge of restoring the balance to the game.

Mush55 · September 2016

Nothing to add , but this my newly made stam sorc in all purple crafted gear and a mish mash of jewellery is throwing out comparable dps to my fully golded scathing mage equipped magic nb main.

Oh and I'm still trying to get to grips playing it at the moment so I can see the gap only widening .

We have a saying in th UK are they (zos)taking the pi*s

Lava_Croft · September 2016

Derra wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

While in essence a nerf, let's not make the mistake of trying to hold on to a bug just because Magicka builds are underpowered.

While it may be a bug or maybe not bc fully channeled means the first tick of the attack for every other mechanic aswell - it´s current live mechanic does not impact people negatively. They can just keep it as a feature that brings variety to the game.

A bug that does need fixing is cloak making projectiles miss even though i popped a detection potion. That is something that needs to be fixed.

A fixed bug is a fixed bug. If the fixed bug exposes something that requires a buff or nerf, then do so. But crying because a bug that happened to benefit you got fixed, I really would just give up and try to look for valid (ie: non-bugged) ways to buff Magicka specs.

This discussion isn't that much different from Stamina players crying that a bug fix to Drinks meant they lost their broken Stamina regeneration while sneaking.

hedna123b14_ESO · September 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

While in essence a nerf, let's not make the mistake of trying to hold on to a bug just because Magicka builds are underpowered.

While it may be a bug or maybe not bc fully channeled means the first tick of the attack for every other mechanic aswell - it´s current live mechanic does not impact people negatively. They can just keep it as a feature that brings variety to the game.

A bug that does need fixing is cloak making projectiles miss even though i popped a detection potion. That is something that needs to be fixed.

A fixed bug is a fixed bug. If the fixed bug exposes something that requires a buff or nerf, then do so. But crying because a bug that happened to benefit you got fixed, I really would just give up and try to look for valid (ie: non-bugged) ways to buff Magicka specs.

This discussion isn't that much different from Stamina players crying that a bug fix to Drinks meant they lost their broken Stamina regeneration while sneaking.

A mechanic happening since beta is not a bug...

Tyrion87 · September 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

While in essence a nerf, let's not make the mistake of trying to hold on to a bug just because Magicka builds are underpowered.

While it may be a bug or maybe not bc fully channeled means the first tick of the attack for every other mechanic aswell - it´s current live mechanic does not impact people negatively. They can just keep it as a feature that brings variety to the game.

A bug that does need fixing is cloak making projectiles miss even though i popped a detection potion. That is something that needs to be fixed.

A fixed bug is a fixed bug. If the fixed bug exposes something that requires a buff or nerf, then do so. But crying because a bug that happened to benefit you got fixed, I really would just give up and try to look for valid (ie: non-bugged) ways to buff Magicka specs.

This discussion isn't that much different from Stamina players crying that a bug fix to Drinks meant they lost their broken Stamina regeneration while sneaking.

A mechanic happening since beta is not a bug...

^ This and also in the state of magicka builds are now, any such so-called "bugs" should definitely stay.

Lava_Croft · September 2016

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

While in essence a nerf, let's not make the mistake of trying to hold on to a bug just because Magicka builds are underpowered.

While it may be a bug or maybe not bc fully channeled means the first tick of the attack for every other mechanic aswell - it´s current live mechanic does not impact people negatively. They can just keep it as a feature that brings variety to the game.

A bug that does need fixing is cloak making projectiles miss even though i popped a detection potion. That is something that needs to be fixed.

A fixed bug is a fixed bug. If the fixed bug exposes something that requires a buff or nerf, then do so. But crying because a bug that happened to benefit you got fixed, I really would just give up and try to look for valid (ie: non-bugged) ways to buff Magicka specs.

This discussion isn't that much different from Stamina players crying that a bug fix to Drinks meant they lost their broken Stamina regeneration while sneaking.

A mechanic happening since beta is not a bug...

There's quite a few broken things since beta that are bugs.

SorataArisugawa · September 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

While in essence a nerf, let's not make the mistake of trying to hold on to a bug just because Magicka builds are underpowered.

While it may be a bug or maybe not bc fully channeled means the first tick of the attack for every other mechanic aswell - it´s current live mechanic does not impact people negatively. They can just keep it as a feature that brings variety to the game.

A bug that does need fixing is cloak making projectiles miss even though i popped a detection potion. That is something that needs to be fixed.

A fixed bug is a fixed bug. If the fixed bug exposes something that requires a buff or nerf, then do so. But crying because a bug that happened to benefit you got fixed, I really would just give up and try to look for valid (ie: non-bugged) ways to buff Magicka specs.

This discussion isn't that much different from Stamina players crying that a bug fix to Drinks meant they lost their broken Stamina regeneration while sneaking.

It was a bugg, but it was a good one(not OP) and really needed for the diversity of mage bulids. Nobody needs your "heroism" here. You are right and now leave if you just want to play the nitpicker... helps nobody!

Lava_Croft · September 2016

What 'we' need is people crying at ZOS for not fixing bugs, unless it's a bug that benefits us.

Right?

Tyrion87 · September 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

What 'we' need is people crying at ZOS for not fixing bugs, unless it's a bug that benefits us.

Right?

And you play stamina?

Right?

Lava_Croft · September 2016

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

What 'we' need is people crying at ZOS for not fixing bugs, unless it's a bug that benefits us.

Right?

And you play stamina?

Right?

Because whether I play Magicka or Stamina obviously makes my statements any less or more true.

Thanks for showing the exact mindset that goes into threads like this.

Tyrion87 · September 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

What 'we' need is people crying at ZOS for not fixing bugs, unless it's a bug that benefits us.

Right?

And you play stamina?

Right?

Because whether I play Magicka or Stamina obviously makes my statements any less or more true.

Thanks for showing the exact mindset that goes into threads like this.

Every statement is somehow biased based on the character you play/enjoy playing/play the most.

code65536 · September 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

What 'we' need is people crying at ZOS for not fixing bugs, unless it's a bug that benefits us.

Right?

No, we're asking ZOS to not classify as a bug something that (1) does not break or otherwise harm gameplay and (2) improves game balance.

Whether something is called a "bug" or "unintended" is purely arbitrary. I don't give a damn what label you slap on it--it's irrelevant to me. All that matters--and all that should matter--is the overall effect and whether it is something bad that needs addressing or something good that needs keeping.

Rykmaar · September 2016

It's hard to watch all these direct or indirect nerfs to magicka and not become disillusioned.

There is currently no reason to use frost staves in the game. This change reduces the reason to use shock staves.

...and don't even use the stupid +frost spell damage set as an excuse here -- destro staves are broken and the only direct damage, single target ability that would benefit from that set is clench, which is ridiculous.

Lava_Croft · September 2016

And that's the discussion to have. How to improve staves without relying on bugs.

NordSwordnBoard · September 2016

When you think of game imbalance and power disparity, you immediately think of lightning staff, dont you?

If it is a bug, its a bug that helped enable some build diversity. "Not working as intended" might actually be better for the game than what was intended.