DPS Tests and Trials Breeding Elitism

Humatiel

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

SienneYviete wrote: »

WTF even is this thread, stop making excuses.

...? Who is making excuses? I ended up getting my Shehai Shatterer after 1 wipe. Which was my third Shehai Shatterer character, as I had it previously for 2 others. Not to mention, I have cleared all content but vet Maw. And by all content, I mean it. With Vet Maw's completion only inches away from me. So... Who is making excuses, and what would they be making excuses about? I highly advise you read closer, because your post isn't making any sense.

Edit - I forgot to include this below:

If your inches from a vmol completion then you should understand that dps tests (at some point in that players pve career) are what made that possible. You can bring a player to content but past a level of content he needs to decide he wants to tailor his build to it.

The problem in all the content is the lack of creativity. Dps should not be the deciding factor. It's the problem with the whole friggin game. The lack of balance and need for anything else to compete at end game.all the content is based on that and situational awareness. 1 tank 2 healers and 9 top end competitive dps? It's friggin joke. Not everyone likes to play a pew pew. I don't disagree with dps tests, I think the whole game design pigeonholed it self with the trial system and leaderboard design

For what its worth (I main a dps), I agree with you completely. I would love to get into some trial environments where my healers could lay HoTs of HoTs and scream into the mic about the proper positioning for debuffs and buffs. Where we could get some nice aoe taunts and tanks could manipulate a battle for some sustained (5-10m) DoT rotations and start prepping the second teams to come in after the five hour mark.

BUT

none of what I said relates in any way to eso. You cant make 95% of the game "tankwithbow" and then expect endgame to deviate to much from that...as much as I would like it to.

Wifeaggro13

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

anitajoneb17_ESO

Everything is linked. If a DD has good awareness and reaction time and good knowledge of the mechanics, if the healer is good, the DD can survive easily with as low as 17K health, even with a very squishy build. Inversely, part of me having a comparatively low DPS for end-game raiding comes from the fact that I always sacrifice resources and time in my rotation to use hardened ward, because I'm not quick enough at avoiding damage and I don't want to put too much strain on the healer.
Also, the amazing DPS figures pulled by some end-game raiders don't come "alone", they're also the result of a carefully planned group buff strategy, ensuring that the best possible combination is reached, while no two identical buffs are uselessly applied at the same time. That implies that each and every player wears gear required by the group, and not plays as he/she wants ! There are gear sets in the game especially designed for hard trials, and only a carefully planned combination of those sets at group level can ensure the best results.

In my opinion there are three levels of "performance" in ESO. Let's call them 1 (casual), 2 (intermediate) and 3 (Hodor or BI-level).

Level 1 is no problem. They pull 5-10K DPS, do normal instances, PUG and have fun.
Level 3 is no problem : They pull 35K+ DPS, are highly organized, don't even think of setting an instance on "normal", and have fun.

Level 2 are the people who play quite a lot, relatively well, pull 20-25K DPS, have completed every trial incl. HM except vMoL, and still struggle on vMSA (partly) and vMoL (most). They are legitimately considered "very good" by category 1 but also legitimately considered "very bad" by category 3. That's where discomfort and miscommunication pop in. Especially since there has been no content at all for the players of that level until very recently with vDSA, vCoS and vRoM which are appropriately tuned for those "intermediate" players. But before that, we had nothing to play in groups that wasn't either insanely difficult or boringly easy.

My "tip"... talk to people ! Make friends ! Don't simply apply to some guild with your "figures", make friends ! You're not entitled to join a high-end raiding guild. And you must find one that fits your mentality. It's the right of each guild to have its culture, method and values. Just like we all have different visions of a "group" and a "guild" and how things should be done. Talk to people !

I belong to a guild where quite a lot of players have worked hard to become very good. They built up a core group and worked hard to beat VMoL - which they recently achieved multiple times. I felt kinda sad for myself because the gap between me and them is widening and there will be less and less opportunities to raid with them on equal foot. Still, they still take me with them every now and then. They know exactly how good/bad a player I am, they know I don't feel "entitled", they just want to be nice - and also sometimes they have a free spot and noone better than me to jump in.
Talk to people, guys, make friends. Problem solved.

Kilnerdyne

Terribly disheartened to hear of your troubles. There are plenty of PC EU Community Guilds that are tiered to allow such diversity of skill level, whether you've just installed the game, enjoy the game for social reasons, or are interested in end-game content. The status quo for me is contrary to your opinion that indeed there is an overwhelmingly positive force in ESO from the vast majority.

It's evident that we don't make forums posts about the other 99% of raids that run smoothly, sorry about that ZOS, but instead about those once-in-a-blue-moon raids where one rapscallion triggers your new discussion button. Creating a raid can be easy, troubling or tough depending on circumstance. Decisions the leader makes can decide 11 other people's entire evening. However what is important when i'm selecting people for raids is who they are. I'd rather be surrounded by 11 players I know are dependable, reliable and most essential they are friends or could be friends very soon.

160-180k Group DPS (8 DDs doing 20k-22k DPS) should be sufficient to complete all content currently available in the game and can be achieved using crafted+cheaply bought equipment. Unless your applying to a Time Trials progression guild (which most of the time is quite different to a community guild) you won't be asked for a DPS test before joining a trial, anyone will be able to join regardless of their ability and they will assist you. What you've found from your bad experience is the wrong Guild/Raid leader/Raid, it's possible their LFM message wasn't specific enough which I find is the trouble alot of the time.

Finding the Guild, Social circle or group of friends for you may take time but I refuse to believe PS4 NA is any less different than PC EU, 99% real humans, 1% immature, bad-attitude or having a bad day. Have hope.

And there's no greater turn-off for me when someone is looking for group than the words 'exp' or 'CP9001+'.

Doctordarkspawn

Humatiel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. When will people understand there is a part of our community that enjoy pushing the limits? Veteran trials are OUR content. If you don't like the community for those things DONT DO THEM. You are not entitled to completing all content in this game with low effort.

Like pvp is not for me, vet trials are not for you. Deal. With. It.

Then again most trial guilds are always willing to help you improve. The problem with you people is, you don't want to improve, you just want to complete the content. Don't make it look like it's someone else's fault, because it's not. This content has minimum requirements, and if you are not willing to (yes this is simply an "I want to factor") go for that level, simply stop bothering. But don't come here to the forums complaining how elitist everyone is for not carrying lazy people through vet maw.

Also how many deaths did we have on vmol hard mode? 4, 5? All 17k life DD's. Did you hear anyone blame the healer? Nope. The tank? Nope. We just played on. Stop talking nonsense to prove your own biased points about a community you apparently know nothing about.

I am constantly busy helping new tanks go to trials. I even watched some streams, helped an xbox guild complete vet maw. Posts like yours are exactly what creates the toxicity, because you are talking about people you KNOW NOTHING about.

...? Are you serious? Is dude serious? Certainly you had a bad day, or woke-up on the wrong side of the bed — yes? You didn't mean all that. You didn't mean those highly-venomous and toxic words you just directed at me. I know for a fact you didn't mean that. And I forgive you in advance.

I tip my hat to you sir, alienating Woeler is without doubt one of the fastest ways to alienate the PvE community. Not even I as a fairly consistent troll can accomplish this as quickly as you are about to.

N'ah bro. Not alienation. It's called having basic respect for people. Both offline and online. And even then, I don't care WHO you are. You do not disrespect people offline, or online. And if you do, don't do it to me. I don't tolerate it offline, and best believe ya boy isn't going to tolerate it online. At the end of the day, this is ESO. A GAME that was created to provide entertainment and a means to be social with others who are fans of the Elder Scrolls franchise. I'm not about to sit here and tolerate myself getting chumped by this individual. No. Not happening. I beta tested this game, and have been playing it on 2 platforms for a VERY long time. So please, don't even try it. Also, I believe I was very polite and respectful when addressing dude. But, if you think I'm going to be submissive??? You're wilding, and tweaking heavy.

two points right off, one Woeler doesn't have the slightest idea who I am and I know him only by reputation. Two he has said nothing about the person only about there intent with a character. Woeler also has eight kinds of guides and a guild that helps new players along with being nice enough to help the general community with complicated questions such as specific if/then statements inside vMOL. That doesn't sound like a player that would ever insult another person over a game.

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant. And best believe I meant what I said. And I'll say it once more. I don't care who anyone is. Nor what their reputation is, or accolades. It's called being respectful to others, and being respectful of the fact that EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion. Whether or not we have to agree with it, is a whole other story in itself. Because in the end, we don't have to agree on things. And that is perfectly fine in of itself. However, there is a way of getting your point across without being direspectful and insulting. And then you tell me of how I'm supposed to just bow out, and deal with what they just said to me? Lol. For real, bruh-bruh? Just because of their reputation and cyber accolades, I'm supposed to just let it slide? Word?

Fair, lets review his post.

-Players enjoying hard content, and being the best at it.
-Content being hard takes time and effort to complete
-Trials have minimum requirements, because of that players need to as well.
-Guilds arent the issue, most players wont put time in to improve.
-17k health isnt a fault, evidence is his raiding team (arguably the best in the game) runs it
as a standard.

Exactly what part of that has offended you as a person?

Possibly the part with the masked profanity his posts keep geting edited for.

Doctordarkspawn

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

SienneYviete wrote: »

WTF even is this thread, stop making excuses.

...? Who is making excuses? I ended up getting my Shehai Shatterer after 1 wipe. Which was my third Shehai Shatterer character, as I had it previously for 2 others. Not to mention, I have cleared all content but vet Maw. And by all content, I mean it. With Vet Maw's completion only inches away from me. So... Who is making excuses, and what would they be making excuses about? I highly advise you read closer, because your post isn't making any sense.

Edit - I forgot to include this below:

If your inches from a vmol completion then you should understand that dps tests (at some point in that players pve career) are what made that possible. You can bring a player to content but past a level of content he needs to decide he wants to tailor his build to it.

The problem in all the content is the lack of creativity. Dps should not be the deciding factor. It's the problem with the whole friggin game. The lack of balance and need for anything else to compete at end game.all the content is based on that and situational awareness. 1 tank 2 healers and 9 top end competitive dps? It's friggin joke. Not everyone likes to play a pew pew. I don't disagree with dps tests, I think the whole game design pigeonholed it self with the trial system and leaderboard design

WELCOME TO WHAT ME, AND MANY OTHERS, HAVE BEEN POINTING OUT SINCE VMOL.

This game pidgeonholes itself and goes against what it's advertised as, which is play how you want. While the DPS grinder is being halted with design like shadows of the hist, but that's about it.

If anything we need to be railing about the nonchoices that this game suffers from. Eliteism will allways exist. This should be the conversation we should be having.

LadyNalcarya

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Humatiel

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. When will people understand there is a part of our community that enjoy pushing the limits? Veteran trials are OUR content. If you don't like the community for those things DONT DO THEM. You are not entitled to completing all content in this game with low effort.

Like pvp is not for me, vet trials are not for you. Deal. With. It.

Then again most trial guilds are always willing to help you improve. The problem with you people is, you don't want to improve, you just want to complete the content. Don't make it look like it's someone else's fault, because it's not. This content has minimum requirements, and if you are not willing to (yes this is simply an "I want to factor") go for that level, simply stop bothering. But don't come here to the forums complaining how elitist everyone is for not carrying lazy people through vet maw.

Also how many deaths did we have on vmol hard mode? 4, 5? All 17k life DD's. Did you hear anyone blame the healer? Nope. The tank? Nope. We just played on. Stop talking nonsense to prove your own biased points about a community you apparently know nothing about.

I am constantly busy helping new tanks go to trials. I even watched some streams, helped an xbox guild complete vet maw. Posts like yours are exactly what creates the toxicity, because you are talking about people you KNOW NOTHING about.

...? Are you serious? Is dude serious? Certainly you had a bad day, or woke-up on the wrong side of the bed — yes? You didn't mean all that. You didn't mean those highly-venomous and toxic words you just directed at me. I know for a fact you didn't mean that. And I forgive you in advance.

I tip my hat to you sir, alienating Woeler is without doubt one of the fastest ways to alienate the PvE community. Not even I as a fairly consistent troll can accomplish this as quickly as you are about to.

N'ah bro. Not alienation. It's called having basic respect for people. Both offline and online. And even then, I don't care WHO you are. You do not disrespect people offline, or online. And if you do, don't do it to me. I don't tolerate it offline, and best believe ya boy isn't going to tolerate it online. At the end of the day, this is ESO. A GAME that was created to provide entertainment and a means to be social with others who are fans of the Elder Scrolls franchise. I'm not about to sit here and tolerate myself getting chumped by this individual. No. Not happening. I beta tested this game, and have been playing it on 2 platforms for a VERY long time. So please, don't even try it. Also, I believe I was very polite and respectful when addressing dude. But, if you think I'm going to be submissive??? You're wilding, and tweaking heavy.

two points right off, one Woeler doesn't have the slightest idea who I am and I know him only by reputation. Two he has said nothing about the person only about there intent with a character. Woeler also has eight kinds of guides and a guild that helps new players along with being nice enough to help the general community with complicated questions such as specific if/then statements inside vMOL. That doesn't sound like a player that would ever insult another person over a game.

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant. And best believe I meant what I said. And I'll say it once more. I don't care who anyone is. Nor what their reputation is, or accolades. It's called being respectful to others, and being respectful of the fact that EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion. Whether or not we have to agree with it, is a whole other story in itself. Because in the end, we don't have to agree on things. And that is perfectly fine in of itself. However, there is a way of getting your point across without being direspectful and insulting. And then you tell me of how I'm supposed to just bow out, and deal with what they just said to me? Lol. For real, bruh-bruh? Just because of their reputation and cyber accolades, I'm supposed to just let it slide? Word?

Fair, lets review his post.

-Players enjoying hard content, and being the best at it.
-Content being hard takes time and effort to complete
-Trials have minimum requirements, because of that players need to as well.
-Guilds arent the issue, most players wont put time in to improve.
-17k health isnt a fault, evidence is his raiding team (arguably the best in the game) runs it
as a standard.

Exactly what part of that has offended you as a person?

Possibly the part with the masked profanity his posts keep geting edited for.

I would hope not, but I can see it. While we're at it lets go ahead and bring back discussing pregnancy in public being shameful and any clothing above the knee being wrong as well. If he is actually that sensitive (not in itself a bad thing) then Woelers earlier comment is entirely accurate, he shouldn't be making posts on a discussion board.

Doctordarkspawn

Woeler wrote: »

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. When will people understand there is a part of our community that enjoy pushing the limits? Veteran trials are OUR content. If you don't like the community for those things DONT DO THEM. You are not entitled to completing all content in this game with low effort.

Like pvp is not for me, vet trials are not for you. Deal. With. It.

Then again most trial guilds are always willing to help you improve. The problem with you people is, you don't want to improve, you just want to complete the content. Don't make it look like it's someone else's fault, because it's not. This content has minimum requirements, and if you are not willing to (yes this is simply an "I want to factor") go for that level, simply stop bothering. But don't come here to the forums complaining how elitist everyone is for not carrying lazy people through vet maw.

Also how many deaths did we have on vmol hard mode? 4, 5? All 17k life DD's. Did you hear anyone blame the healer? Nope. The tank? Nope. We just played on. Stop talking nonsense to prove your own biased points about a community you apparently know nothing about.

I am constantly busy helping new tanks go to trials. I even watched some streams, helped an xbox guild complete vet maw. Posts like yours are exactly what creates the toxicity, because you are talking about people you KNOW NOTHING about.

These are the forums.

These are a place for discussion and the free exchange of idea's, and some of them may be insulting and based off misconceptions, but so long as their not designed as bait they have a right to exist. Acting emotional is not a response anyone respects and only makes you look like your throwing a tantrum.

If you have a problem with the above, the forums, much like PVP for both of us, are not for you. Deal. With. It.

xblackroxe

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. When will people understand there is a part of our community that enjoy pushing the limits? Veteran trials are OUR content. If you don't like the community for those things DONT DO THEM. You are not entitled to completing all content in this game with low effort.

Like pvp is not for me, vet trials are not for you. Deal. With. It.

Then again most trial guilds are always willing to help you improve. The problem with you people is, you don't want to improve, you just want to complete the content. Don't make it look like it's someone else's fault, because it's not. This content has minimum requirements, and if you are not willing to (yes this is simply an "I want to factor") go for that level, simply stop bothering. But don't come here to the forums complaining how elitist everyone is for not carrying lazy people through vet maw.

Also how many deaths did we have on vmol hard mode? 4, 5? All 17k life DD's. Did you hear anyone blame the healer? Nope. The tank? Nope. We just played on. Stop talking nonsense to prove your own biased points about a community you apparently know nothing about.

I am constantly busy helping new tanks go to trials. I even watched some streams, helped an xbox guild complete vet maw. Posts like yours are exactly what creates the toxicity, because you are talking about people you KNOW NOTHING about.

These are the forums.

These are a place for discussion and the free exchange of idea's, and some of them may be insulting and based off misconceptions, but so long as their not designed as bait they have a right to exist. Acting emotional is not a response anyone respects and only makes you look like your throwing a tantrum.

If you have a problem with the above, the forums, much like PVP for both of us, are not for you. Deal. With. It.

So you wouldn´t respond like this if you and all your friends get blatantly insulted even though those people help the community grow?

The last paragraph wasn´t a free exchange of ideas. Its was generalizing all people in endgame trial guilds as "elitist" idiots.

Doctordarkspawn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

Doctordarkspawn

xblackroxe wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. When will people understand there is a part of our community that enjoy pushing the limits? Veteran trials are OUR content. If you don't like the community for those things DONT DO THEM. You are not entitled to completing all content in this game with low effort.

Like pvp is not for me, vet trials are not for you. Deal. With. It.

Then again most trial guilds are always willing to help you improve. The problem with you people is, you don't want to improve, you just want to complete the content. Don't make it look like it's someone else's fault, because it's not. This content has minimum requirements, and if you are not willing to (yes this is simply an "I want to factor") go for that level, simply stop bothering. But don't come here to the forums complaining how elitist everyone is for not carrying lazy people through vet maw.

Also how many deaths did we have on vmol hard mode? 4, 5? All 17k life DD's. Did you hear anyone blame the healer? Nope. The tank? Nope. We just played on. Stop talking nonsense to prove your own biased points about a community you apparently know nothing about.

I am constantly busy helping new tanks go to trials. I even watched some streams, helped an xbox guild complete vet maw. Posts like yours are exactly what creates the toxicity, because you are talking about people you KNOW NOTHING about.

These are the forums.

These are a place for discussion and the free exchange of idea's, and some of them may be insulting and based off misconceptions, but so long as their not designed as bait they have a right to exist. Acting emotional is not a response anyone respects and only makes you look like your throwing a tantrum.

If you have a problem with the above, the forums, much like PVP for both of us, are not for you. Deal. With. It.

So you wouldn´t respond like this if you and all your friends get blatantly insulted even though those people help the community grow?

The last paragraph wasn´t a free exchange of ideas. Its was generalizing all people in endgame trial guilds as "elitist" idiots.

If I didn't think I could be civil, I would hope I would have the good sense not to post. That's a best case senario. But the edit function exists and I'd likely sit there for a while as I slowly calmed down, taking the frustraition and trying to do something constructive with it. How much success I'd have....issss probably dependent on the subject.

...As for the OP, the OP can defend himself.

Alcast

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

Tanking, Healing and DDing in Trials is not that easy anymore, all of the 3 roles needs focus (IF you want to do it propperly)
Also, you should not expect that 1,5 year old builds are still working. Sure I could use my old setup back from 1.3/1.6 and I still could pull decent numbers, but it will not be MAXed out. It still would be totally enough to finish 100% of the content tho.

LadyNalcarya

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

I would strongly disagree. I did vMoL and other vet trials on all 3 roles and would say that tank was the most challenging (I like this kind of challenge tho, so I might be a bit biased :P ).
And for example as a tank, its not all about "just blocking". It used to be like this when we had outdated vr12 raids and everyones strategy was just "stack and burn", but now its in the past. For example, positioning is really important now (and affects group dps greatly), now there are buffs/debuffs, sometimes cc, interrupts and other things...

Doctordarkspawn

Alcast wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

Tanking, Healing and DDing in Trials is not that easy anymore, all of the 3 roles needs focus (IF you want to do it propperly)
Also, you should not expect that 1,5 year old builds are still working. Sure I could use my old setup back from 1.3/1.6 and I still could pull decent numbers, but it will not be MAXed out. It still would be totally enough to finish 100% of the content tho.

True enough on the second bit, because. Well. No build is guarenteed to work after like a year or two.

But the question I'm trying to raise is is the tanking, healing, and damage dealing geting harder because that's what they want to happen, or is it happening because their bad at designing? You decide!

Bandit1215

WikileaksEU wrote: »

The worst thing is when someone is looking for a 500cp+ for a vet dungeon run when everyone knows that 160cp is max.

That isn't their point. The difference in DPS and heals between a 531CP player and a 160CP player is often times enormous because they don't have as much CP to put into the boosted damage, crit, healing done etc.

Alcast

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

Tanking, Healing and DDing in Trials is not that easy anymore, all of the 3 roles needs focus (IF you want to do it propperly)
Also, you should not expect that 1,5 year old builds are still working. Sure I could use my old setup back from 1.3/1.6 and I still could pull decent numbers, but it will not be MAXed out. It still would be totally enough to finish 100% of the content tho.

True enough on the second bit, because. Well. No build is guarenteed to work after like a year or two.

But the question I'm trying to raise is is the tanking, healing, and damage dealing geting harder because that's what they want to happen, or is it happening because their bad at designing? You decide!

They want us to have a challenge, so I do WELCOME every change that makes it harder to stay alive in ANY of the content. I do like the design of most mechanics in this game and you also see that the Dungeon DEVS are doing a great job to keep us busy at all times

Doctordarkspawn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

I would strongly disagree. I did vMoL and other vet trials on all 3 roles and would say that tank was the most challenging.
And for example as a tank, its not all about "just blocking". It used to be like this when we had outdated vr12 raids and everyones strategy was just "stack and burn", but now its in the past. For example, positioning is really important now (and affects group dps greatly), now there are buffs/debuffs, sometimes cc, interrupts and other things...

Back in the day it was difficult too. The damage was scaled way up and the softcaps were in place so the challenge, came from prediction of damage, and the usage of buffs to mitigate it. You know. Much like protection warrior on WoW is.

Now, the challenge is resource management. The problem with resource management, with all the ballance changes that have gone on, is geting it to the point where you can manage resources is so difficult, it requires certain buffs, skills, and maximizing the value of every point of Stam. Hence....The meta as we know it.

The variety of tank didn't shrink because one is more fun, it shrank because we needed that value and therefore we needed a certain setup. That's why I say you are limited in the illusion of choice to accomplish a certain roll like tank nowadays.

Granted that's only for vet trials, but it is what it is.

Doctordarkspawn

Alcast wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

Tanking, Healing and DDing in Trials is not that easy anymore, all of the 3 roles needs focus (IF you want to do it propperly)
Also, you should not expect that 1,5 year old builds are still working. Sure I could use my old setup back from 1.3/1.6 and I still could pull decent numbers, but it will not be MAXed out. It still would be totally enough to finish 100% of the content tho.

True enough on the second bit, because. Well. No build is guarenteed to work after like a year or two.

But the question I'm trying to raise is is the tanking, healing, and damage dealing geting harder because that's what they want to happen, or is it happening because their bad at designing? You decide!

They want us to have a challenge, so I do WELCOME every change that makes it harder to stay alive in ANY of the content. I do like the design of most mechanics in this game and you also see that the Dungeon DEVS are doing a great job to keep us busy at all times

And you know what? I welcome it for the people who want it. There's allready a movement with the trials revamps to enable the people who wanna pug trials a place to get that gear too. I spent yesterday grinding normal trials for a tank set. So y'know what? More power to you man. Hopefully, the pledge revamp will do the same thing for dungeons, and it'll be the best of both worlds.

LadyNalcarya

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

I would strongly disagree. I did vMoL and other vet trials on all 3 roles and would say that tank was the most challenging.
And for example as a tank, its not all about "just blocking". It used to be like this when we had outdated vr12 raids and everyones strategy was just "stack and burn", but now its in the past. For example, positioning is really important now (and affects group dps greatly), now there are buffs/debuffs, sometimes cc, interrupts and other things...

Back in the day it was difficult too. The damage was scaled way up and the softcaps were in place so the challenge, came from prediction of damage, and the usage of buffs to mitigate it. You know. Much like protection warrior on WoW is.

Now, the challenge is resource management. The problem with resource management, with all the ballance changes that have gone on, is geting it to the point where you can manage resources is so difficult, it requires certain buffs, skills, and maximizing the value of every point of Stam. Hence....The meta as we know it.

The variety of tank didn't shrink because one is more fun, it shrank because we needed that value and therefore we needed a certain setup. That's why I say you are limited in the illusion of choice to accomplish a certain roll like tank nowadays.

Umm its not an illusion.
I can clearly see how my performance as a tank affects my team. And its not just managing my green bar.

Doctordarkspawn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

I would strongly disagree. I did vMoL and other vet trials on all 3 roles and would say that tank was the most challenging.
And for example as a tank, its not all about "just blocking". It used to be like this when we had outdated vr12 raids and everyones strategy was just "stack and burn", but now its in the past. For example, positioning is really important now (and affects group dps greatly), now there are buffs/debuffs, sometimes cc, interrupts and other things...

Back in the day it was difficult too. The damage was scaled way up and the softcaps were in place so the challenge, came from prediction of damage, and the usage of buffs to mitigate it. You know. Much like protection warrior on WoW is.

Now, the challenge is resource management. The problem with resource management, with all the ballance changes that have gone on, is geting it to the point where you can manage resources is so difficult, it requires certain buffs, skills, and maximizing the value of every point of Stam. Hence....The meta as we know it.

The variety of tank didn't shrink because one is more fun, it shrank because we needed that value and therefore we needed a certain setup. That's why I say you are limited in the illusion of choice to accomplish a certain roll like tank nowadays.

Umm its not an illusion.
I can clearly see how my performance as a tank affects my team. And its not just managing my green bar.

Your not geting what I'm saying.

I'm saying back in the day we had some leeway with what we could use. It wasn't -alot-, but back in the day you could run something slightly different, slightly personalized.

Now you must run the Meta because that's what's optimized for management, whether you like it or not. I'm not saying your situational awareness does not matter, I'm saying back in the day we had some very clear cut rules to follow so that people could -focus- on that (That being, situational awareness, tank ettiquet, controling the fight, ect). Now we do (Have a clear set of rules to focus on awareness, ect), but for what I feel is the wrong reasons.

LadyNalcarya

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

I would strongly disagree. I did vMoL and other vet trials on all 3 roles and would say that tank was the most challenging.
And for example as a tank, its not all about "just blocking". It used to be like this when we had outdated vr12 raids and everyones strategy was just "stack and burn", but now its in the past. For example, positioning is really important now (and affects group dps greatly), now there are buffs/debuffs, sometimes cc, interrupts and other things...

Back in the day it was difficult too. The damage was scaled way up and the softcaps were in place so the challenge, came from prediction of damage, and the usage of buffs to mitigate it. You know. Much like protection warrior on WoW is.

Now, the challenge is resource management. The problem with resource management, with all the ballance changes that have gone on, is geting it to the point where you can manage resources is so difficult, it requires certain buffs, skills, and maximizing the value of every point of Stam. Hence....The meta as we know it.

The variety of tank didn't shrink because one is more fun, it shrank because we needed that value and therefore we needed a certain setup. That's why I say you are limited in the illusion of choice to accomplish a certain roll like tank nowadays.

Umm its not an illusion.
I can clearly see how my performance as a tank affects my team. And its not just managing my green bar.

Your not geting what I'm saying.

I'm saying back in the day we had some leeway with what we could use. It wasn't -alot-, but back in the day you could run something slightly different, slightly personalized.

Now you must run the Meta because that's what's optimized for management, whether you like it or not. I'm not saying your situational awareness does not matter, I'm saying back in the day we had some very clear cut rules to follow so that people could -focus- on that. Now we do, but for what I feel is the wrong reasons.

Except that it isnt true...
All trials can be tanked by any race, any type of char (well stamina tank is a meta, but Im sure you can tank on magicka specced tank too). There are more tanking sets now than just histbark/whatever and more group buff options.

Ch4mpTW

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

I would strongly disagree. I did vMoL and other vet trials on all 3 roles and would say that tank was the most challenging.
And for example as a tank, its not all about "just blocking". It used to be like this when we had outdated vr12 raids and everyones strategy was just "stack and burn", but now its in the past. For example, positioning is really important now (and affects group dps greatly), now there are buffs/debuffs, sometimes cc, interrupts and other things...

Back in the day it was difficult too. The damage was scaled way up and the softcaps were in place so the challenge, came from prediction of damage, and the usage of buffs to mitigate it. You know. Much like protection warrior on WoW is.

Now, the challenge is resource management. The problem with resource management, with all the ballance changes that have gone on, is geting it to the point where you can manage resources is so difficult, it requires certain buffs, skills, and maximizing the value of every point of Stam. Hence....The meta as we know it.

The variety of tank didn't shrink because one is more fun, it shrank because we needed that value and therefore we needed a certain setup. That's why I say you are limited in the illusion of choice to accomplish a certain roll like tank nowadays.

Umm its not an illusion.
I can clearly see how my performance as a tank affects my team. And its not just managing my green bar.

Your not geting what I'm saying.

I'm saying back in the day we had some leeway with what we could use. It wasn't -alot-, but back in the day you could run something slightly different, slightly personalized.

Now you must run the Meta because that's what's optimized for management, whether you like it or not. I'm not saying your situational awareness does not matter, I'm saying back in the day we had some very clear cut rules to follow so that people could -focus- on that. Now we do, but for what I feel is the wrong reasons.

Except that it isnt true...
All trials can be tanked by any race, any type of char (well stamina tank is a meta, but Im sure you can tank on magicka specced tank too). There are more tanking sets now than just histbark/whatever and more group buff options.

Hm... I'm curious then. From your perspective of a tank, would you bring a tank wearing say: Lunar Bastion, Hist Bark, Song of LaMae, Armor Master, Glory, etc. over a tank running Ebon and Tava for content like VMoL or VSO? Just wondering. Because I have a very strong feeling that you wouldn't. I may be entirely wrong. And I hope I'm wrong. But, I really believe that you wouldn't. Nor would most people. And for very good reason too, if you wouldn't. I would understand why. But, I definitely get what @Doctordarkspawn is saying. As he is raising lots of valid points.

DschiPeunt

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I'm saying back in the day we had some leeway with what we could use. It wasn't -alot-, but back in the day you could run something slightly different, slightly personalized.

Oh, you mean like back in the day, when only magicka builds were competitive and everyone was running the aether set? Yeah, what a great variety it was back then.
For some weird reason, there are at least 3 different setups for magicka DKs, that are being used these days. And all 4 classes can be played as magicka and stamina build and achieve good DPS values.
What a horrible time to play ESO....

LadyNalcarya

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

I would strongly disagree. I did vMoL and other vet trials on all 3 roles and would say that tank was the most challenging.
And for example as a tank, its not all about "just blocking". It used to be like this when we had outdated vr12 raids and everyones strategy was just "stack and burn", but now its in the past. For example, positioning is really important now (and affects group dps greatly), now there are buffs/debuffs, sometimes cc, interrupts and other things...

Back in the day it was difficult too. The damage was scaled way up and the softcaps were in place so the challenge, came from prediction of damage, and the usage of buffs to mitigate it. You know. Much like protection warrior on WoW is.

Now, the challenge is resource management. The problem with resource management, with all the ballance changes that have gone on, is geting it to the point where you can manage resources is so difficult, it requires certain buffs, skills, and maximizing the value of every point of Stam. Hence....The meta as we know it.

The variety of tank didn't shrink because one is more fun, it shrank because we needed that value and therefore we needed a certain setup. That's why I say you are limited in the illusion of choice to accomplish a certain roll like tank nowadays.

Umm its not an illusion.
I can clearly see how my performance as a tank affects my team. And its not just managing my green bar.

Your not geting what I'm saying.

I'm saying back in the day we had some leeway with what we could use. It wasn't -alot-, but back in the day you could run something slightly different, slightly personalized.

Now you must run the Meta because that's what's optimized for management, whether you like it or not. I'm not saying your situational awareness does not matter, I'm saying back in the day we had some very clear cut rules to follow so that people could -focus- on that. Now we do, but for what I feel is the wrong reasons.

Except that it isnt true...
All trials can be tanked by any race, any type of char (well stamina tank is a meta, but Im sure you can tank on magicka specced tank too). There are more tanking sets now than just histbark/whatever and more group buff options.

Hm... I'm curious then. From your perspective of a tank, would you bring a tank wearing say: Lunar Bastion, Hist Bark, Song of LaMae, Armor Master, Glory, etc. over a tank running Ebon and Tava for content like VMoL or VSO? Just wondering. Because I have a very strong feeling that you wouldn't. I may be entirely wrong. And I hope I'm wrong. But, I really believe that you wouldn't. Nor would most people. And for very good reason too, if you wouldn't. I would understand why. But, I definitely get what @Doctordarkspawn is saying. As he is raising lots of valid points.

Actually I have different setups on my tank, including Alcosh, Akaviri Dragonguard, Ebon, Tava's, Worm cult and some other sets. I mix and match them depending on what I need.
But you see, a tank these days is a group support role so of course sets that provide group buffs are preferred. Though it doesnt mean that you cant tank vMoL in something different.
I just mean that we have more freedom these days. Those people who praise pre 1.6 always forget the facts.. Like how everyone was running the same build, no matter if youre a dd or a healer. That tanks had only a handful of viable options. That pve used to be "magicka or gtfo". That the most viable strategy was "stack and burn". And many other actually limiting things.

Doctordarkspawn

DschiPeunt wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I'm saying back in the day we had some leeway with what we could use. It wasn't -alot-, but back in the day you could run something slightly different, slightly personalized.

Oh, you mean like back in the day, when only magicka builds were competitive and everyone was running the aether set? Yeah, what a great variety it was back then.
For some weird reason, there are at least 3 different setups for magicka DKs, that are being used these days. And all 4 classes can be played as magicka and stamina build and achieve good DPS values.
What a horrible time to play ESO....

That'd be an apt statement if I was TALKING about DPS.

Doctordarkspawn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

I would strongly disagree. I did vMoL and other vet trials on all 3 roles and would say that tank was the most challenging.
And for example as a tank, its not all about "just blocking". It used to be like this when we had outdated vr12 raids and everyones strategy was just "stack and burn", but now its in the past. For example, positioning is really important now (and affects group dps greatly), now there are buffs/debuffs, sometimes cc, interrupts and other things...

Back in the day it was difficult too. The damage was scaled way up and the softcaps were in place so the challenge, came from prediction of damage, and the usage of buffs to mitigate it. You know. Much like protection warrior on WoW is.

Now, the challenge is resource management. The problem with resource management, with all the ballance changes that have gone on, is geting it to the point where you can manage resources is so difficult, it requires certain buffs, skills, and maximizing the value of every point of Stam. Hence....The meta as we know it.

The variety of tank didn't shrink because one is more fun, it shrank because we needed that value and therefore we needed a certain setup. That's why I say you are limited in the illusion of choice to accomplish a certain roll like tank nowadays.

Umm its not an illusion.
I can clearly see how my performance as a tank affects my team. And its not just managing my green bar.

Your not geting what I'm saying.

I'm saying back in the day we had some leeway with what we could use. It wasn't -alot-, but back in the day you could run something slightly different, slightly personalized.

Now you must run the Meta because that's what's optimized for management, whether you like it or not. I'm not saying your situational awareness does not matter, I'm saying back in the day we had some very clear cut rules to follow so that people could -focus- on that. Now we do, but for what I feel is the wrong reasons.

Except that it isnt true...
All trials can be tanked by any race, any type of char (well stamina tank is a meta, but Im sure you can tank on magicka specced tank too). There are more tanking sets now than just histbark/whatever and more group buff options.

Hm... I'm curious then. From your perspective of a tank, would you bring a tank wearing say: Lunar Bastion, Hist Bark, Song of LaMae, Armor Master, Glory, etc. over a tank running Ebon and Tava for content like VMoL or VSO? Just wondering. Because I have a very strong feeling that you wouldn't. I may be entirely wrong. And I hope I'm wrong. But, I really believe that you wouldn't. Nor would most people. And for very good reason too, if you wouldn't. I would understand why. But, I definitely get what @Doctordarkspawn is saying. As he is raising lots of valid points.

Actually I have different setups on my tank, including Alcosh, Akaviri Dragonguard, Ebon, Tava's, Worm cult and some other sets. I mix and match them depending on what I need.
But you see, a tank these days is a group support role so of course sets that provide group buffs are preferred. Though it doesnt mean that you cant tank vMoL in something different.
I just mean that we have more freedom these days. Those people who praise pre 1.6 always forget the facts.. Like how everyone was running the same build, no matter if youre a dd or a healer. That tanks had only a handful of viable options. That pve used to be "magicka or gtfo". That the most viable strategy was "stack and burn". And many other actually limiting things.

Name a viable tank setup besides saptank and dragonknight with abilities, and preferred gear please.

...As for 'Magicka or GTFO', well...now it's "Stamina prefered" which is not much better.

LadyNalcarya

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

I would strongly disagree. I did vMoL and other vet trials on all 3 roles and would say that tank was the most challenging.
And for example as a tank, its not all about "just blocking". It used to be like this when we had outdated vr12 raids and everyones strategy was just "stack and burn", but now its in the past. For example, positioning is really important now (and affects group dps greatly), now there are buffs/debuffs, sometimes cc, interrupts and other things...

Back in the day it was difficult too. The damage was scaled way up and the softcaps were in place so the challenge, came from prediction of damage, and the usage of buffs to mitigate it. You know. Much like protection warrior on WoW is.

Now, the challenge is resource management. The problem with resource management, with all the ballance changes that have gone on, is geting it to the point where you can manage resources is so difficult, it requires certain buffs, skills, and maximizing the value of every point of Stam. Hence....The meta as we know it.

The variety of tank didn't shrink because one is more fun, it shrank because we needed that value and therefore we needed a certain setup. That's why I say you are limited in the illusion of choice to accomplish a certain roll like tank nowadays.

Umm its not an illusion.
I can clearly see how my performance as a tank affects my team. And its not just managing my green bar.

Your not geting what I'm saying.

I'm saying back in the day we had some leeway with what we could use. It wasn't -alot-, but back in the day you could run something slightly different, slightly personalized.

Now you must run the Meta because that's what's optimized for management, whether you like it or not. I'm not saying your situational awareness does not matter, I'm saying back in the day we had some very clear cut rules to follow so that people could -focus- on that. Now we do, but for what I feel is the wrong reasons.

Except that it isnt true...
All trials can be tanked by any race, any type of char (well stamina tank is a meta, but Im sure you can tank on magicka specced tank too). There are more tanking sets now than just histbark/whatever and more group buff options.

Hm... I'm curious then. From your perspective of a tank, would you bring a tank wearing say: Lunar Bastion, Hist Bark, Song of LaMae, Armor Master, Glory, etc. over a tank running Ebon and Tava for content like VMoL or VSO? Just wondering. Because I have a very strong feeling that you wouldn't. I may be entirely wrong. And I hope I'm wrong. But, I really believe that you wouldn't. Nor would most people. And for very good reason too, if you wouldn't. I would understand why. But, I definitely get what @Doctordarkspawn is saying. As he is raising lots of valid points.

Actually I have different setups on my tank, including Alcosh, Akaviri Dragonguard, Ebon, Tava's, Worm cult and some other sets. I mix and match them depending on what I need.
But you see, a tank these days is a group support role so of course sets that provide group buffs are preferred. Though it doesnt mean that you cant tank vMoL in something different.
I just mean that we have more freedom these days. Those people who praise pre 1.6 always forget the facts.. Like how everyone was running the same build, no matter if youre a dd or a healer. That tanks had only a handful of viable options. That pve used to be "magicka or gtfo". That the most viable strategy was "stack and burn". And many other actually limiting things.

Name a viable tank setup besides saptank and dragonknight with abilities, and preferred gear please.

Name at least 3 non-orthodox viable setups for 1.5 Sanctum hardmode and other trial top scores, please. There was such a variety back then, right?
I already named some of the sets I'm using.

LadyNalcarya

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

...As for 'Magicka or GTFO', well...now it's "Stamina prefered" which is not much better.

What are you even talking about? Have you seen the group that got #1 vMoL hardmode? Have you seen the groups that have top spots in leaderboards?

Doctordarkspawn

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Read what they just directed at me, and tell me that's not insulting. Regardless, I said what I meant.

What you mean is insulting.
Many people from top guilds are actually helping people and there's little to none toxic players (because those arent team players, you know). Also no one really brags with their bloodspawn parses.
And for you, those people and angry scrubs that cant survive in hel ra are the same. When they actually arent, people who can only pull decent nrs on a gargoyle and die right and left all the time clearly arent that "elite".

I do agree with this, I have met some top end players that are helpful. It's usually the older gamer though. The early 20's gamer is still very friggin elite and obnoxious though. Some of the top end guilds have opened shop on starter guilds giving player the chance to farm a few of the v trials. Then they fill vacancy from performers and dedicated players from there. But the game design still just pigeon holes the majority to dps. By design there are less spots for people who build main heals or tanks. And at the upper echelon Specific CP builds are required. At the very least Zos could introduce a dual load out on the CP system.personaly I hate the dps role I've never played it in any Mmo I usually play tank or high end utility, like bard or enchanter. Sadly utility roles do not exist in eso

Well it doesnt really pigeonhole anyone. If a person is capable of tanking/healing vet trials, then theyre usually given a chance.
And theres only 2 role for tanks and 2 for healers in any group, so dds just have more opportunities to join a group. There's just less slots for those by design. But on the other hand, competition amongst high-end dds is insane, as almost everyone prefers to play as a dd anyway.
For new players, there's one more thing - its easier to learn trial mechanics as a dd, so some groups would offer a dd spot for a first-timer, to give them an opportunity to see how the trial works. I dont think thats offensive, it just makes things easier for everyone.

Yeah but how you go about achieveing these rolls is usually extremely limited.

Vet Trials design is designed with the assumption the tank will allways be blocking. And the creatures hit like it. And while I'm not a healer main, I'd bet there's a way to achieve the maximum ammount of healing per second and that somebody has found it.

Hell, it's incredibly easy to *** up a DPS build nowadays, I know alot of people who came -back- to the game and got totally screwed over because the setup that was slightly hybridized, but worked when the softcaps were in place was destroyed by their removal, and how much of a impact total magicka and stamina have on DPS now.

I would strongly disagree. I did vMoL and other vet trials on all 3 roles and would say that tank was the most challenging.
And for example as a tank, its not all about "just blocking". It used to be like this when we had outdated vr12 raids and everyones strategy was just "stack and burn", but now its in the past. For example, positioning is really important now (and affects group dps greatly), now there are buffs/debuffs, sometimes cc, interrupts and other things...

Back in the day it was difficult too. The damage was scaled way up and the softcaps were in place so the challenge, came from prediction of damage, and the usage of buffs to mitigate it. You know. Much like protection warrior on WoW is.

Now, the challenge is resource management. The problem with resource management, with all the ballance changes that have gone on, is geting it to the point where you can manage resources is so difficult, it requires certain buffs, skills, and maximizing the value of every point of Stam. Hence....The meta as we know it.

The variety of tank didn't shrink because one is more fun, it shrank because we needed that value and therefore we needed a certain setup. That's why I say you are limited in the illusion of choice to accomplish a certain roll like tank nowadays.

Umm its not an illusion.
I can clearly see how my performance as a tank affects my team. And its not just managing my green bar.

Your not geting what I'm saying.

I'm saying back in the day we had some leeway with what we could use. It wasn't -alot-, but back in the day you could run something slightly different, slightly personalized.

Now you must run the Meta because that's what's optimized for management, whether you like it or not. I'm not saying your situational awareness does not matter, I'm saying back in the day we had some very clear cut rules to follow so that people could -focus- on that. Now we do, but for what I feel is the wrong reasons.

Except that it isnt true...
All trials can be tanked by any race, any type of char (well stamina tank is a meta, but Im sure you can tank on magicka specced tank too). There are more tanking sets now than just histbark/whatever and more group buff options.

Hm... I'm curious then. From your perspective of a tank, would you bring a tank wearing say: Lunar Bastion, Hist Bark, Song of LaMae, Armor Master, Glory, etc. over a tank running Ebon and Tava for content like VMoL or VSO? Just wondering. Because I have a very strong feeling that you wouldn't. I may be entirely wrong. And I hope I'm wrong. But, I really believe that you wouldn't. Nor would most people. And for very good reason too, if you wouldn't. I would understand why. But, I definitely get what @Doctordarkspawn is saying. As he is raising lots of valid points.

Actually I have different setups on my tank, including Alcosh, Akaviri Dragonguard, Ebon, Tava's, Worm cult and some other sets. I mix and match them depending on what I need.
But you see, a tank these days is a group support role so of course sets that provide group buffs are preferred. Though it doesnt mean that you cant tank vMoL in something different.
I just mean that we have more freedom these days. Those people who praise pre 1.6 always forget the facts.. Like how everyone was running the same build, no matter if youre a dd or a healer. That tanks had only a handful of viable options. That pve used to be "magicka or gtfo". That the most viable strategy was "stack and burn". And many other actually limiting things.

Name a viable tank setup besides saptank and dragonknight with abilities, and preferred gear please.

Name at least 3 non-orthodox viable setups for 1.5 Sanctum hardmode and other trial top scores, please. There was such a variety back then, right?
I already named some of the sets I'm using.

You did not, however, specify class.

And if my long term memory wasn't shite I probably would. It also kinda hurts that I wasn't much into raiding because I couldn't pug it at that time, so.

But humor me and list class.