DPS Tests and Trials Breeding Elitism

Ch4mpTW

In MMO's all over, DPS rotations that are preferred over another and following a meta has been a thing. Always. But, on a game like ESO is it really needed?

Time and time again when I'm running trials with people, I'm hearing about this and that person scored such and such Bloodspawn time. And how serious "deeps" they have. But, when we're actually in the middle of the trial? Those same people pulling the supposed "high DPS" are dying all over the place, and then blaming healers and tanks for their mistakes. When in fact, it was their faul for standing in the red or thinking they're Superman. Not cool. And all this then leads to someone trying to tell someone else their role, and you have drama erupt. When in fact, if a person who was taken along who knew the mechanics has had consistent and solid DPS should've been brought along. Not just a person who knows a rotation or 2, and cheesed the supposed test with gear and items they'd never use in an actual trial.

Which leads right into that. People in DPS tests using gear that they'd never use in an actual trial, just to appear good. Supposedly it is to simulate the buffs you get in a trial, but 9x out of 10 that isn't the case. Yesterday in getting my Shehai Shatterer for my Sorcerer, there was a gentleman who supposedly had all this damage this and that. And 1 player even called a king or God. Something along those lines. And upon running VHRC with them, their DPS was below subpar. When asked why his damage was lacking so much, his response was how if he used his DPS testing gear — he'd die all the time. And be too squishy. Eh? So he was considered, because of something he can't even reproduce in an environment where it truly matters? Really though? But, someone who was solid and could maintain solid health and high damage was cast aside due to them missing the "magic time" by 2-3 seconds for a guy who can't even come close...?

And that ties into giving people a chance to shine. Too many times I'm seeing people who are more than capable of doing content that's high-end get forgone, all due to go instead with people who have constant completions. While I understand the appeal of going with experienced players to get content done, as bosses have enrage timers and things of that sort — these trial guilds are forgetting that people have to learn eventually. And with the so-called "elite" and "hardcore" constantly quitting, or getting banned for actually exploiting some how (this is a huge problem on PS4 NA) — the people who aren't "elite" have to start from somewhere. But, it's like no one wants to help these buds grow as players. Sure you have some players who are bad at the game, and refuse to acknowledge what you say when attempting to help them get better. But, what about those who do acknowledge what is said to them? And what about those who do in fact take the words of advice to heart? I'm tired of seeing people not given a chance, that really deserve it. While the so called "elite" aren't so elite, and are basically mediocre players with reputations built on rumors and he-say-she-say.

And lastly, that ties into the "elite" controlling the game as a whole. That may sound ridiculous, but look. Peep game. You have currently hard content, or relatively hard content that is supposedly there to drop gold jewelry and things that make strong layers stronger. Right? So to say a mediocre or medium-tier player, it's out of reach. They can't get better, because they have no one who's willing to take them through the content and really work with them; to help them get this amazing gear. So what you then have there is in guild traders pieces going for ridiculous amounts of gold. And let's be honest, your average player doesn't have 750k-1M gold to bust down on some of these pieces. They don't. Unless they're buying gold off people, and spending their time farming and refining. And even then, that's time that could be spent bettering their skills and honing their knowledge of mechanics to get better.

And lastly, that ties into people basically buying their way into things. A few times now I've been confronted by people, and asked if they could pay me a few hundred thousand to carry them through a trial or dungeon. Absolutely not. That is the most disturbing thing I have come across to date while being heavy in the trial scene. But apparently, this is a very popular thing with those I've spoken with. People who supposedly aren't talented enough, or having connections tight enough to be brought along in a trial having to essentially buy their way into the scene. And that's not right. That's not right at all. That's horrible. Because first of all, it's basically running someone through something they have no clue about it. Preventing them from learning things systematically, and just speeding them through content that should be learned. Not sped through. And also, it is basically taking gold away from someone that they could be spending on some gear or items to help them improve as a player. But instead is being shelled out for the wrong reasons.

So as you can see, there's a lot of issues with things currently at the end-game PVE scene socially speaking. But, they could be fixed if enough light is shed on these things and ZOS addresses them swiftly. I'm tired of seeing and hearing horror stories of people getting mistreated by the "elite", and seeing and hearing the same people doing the mistreatment. Also, I hope this post will provide some insight on somethings for those interested in getting into serious PVE. The next time you see someone's name on a leaderboard, or hear about how "good" so and so is...? Pause for a moment, and really think about it. Take a second and wonder how it is that so and so got there, and wonder how they treat others. And be sure to wonder those things, before you go praising them as many of the clueless do. Because I can tell for a fact, that a solid 50% of "top-tier" people on PS4 NA are not who you think they are. And are quite toxic and practice predatory behavior.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

There is a lot in this wall of text I agree with. It may only be out done by the amount of things in this wall I disagree with.

FullBlownBeast

Yes, it's needed. If you don't like it, simply don't join those sort of guilds. Problem solved. No one wants to play with some guy and his bbqsauce [Snip]plar build pulling sub 5k dps. It's infuriating.

[Edit to remove profanity]

Ch4mpTW

FullBlownBeast wrote: »

Yes, it's needed. If you don't like it, simply don't join those sort of guilds. Problem solved. No one wants to play with some guy and his bbqsauce [Snip]plar build pulling sub 5k dps. It's infuriating.

[Edit to remove profanity]

Eh...? Well then. I suppose you wouldn't exactly fit into the category of those I mentioned in the original post.

PurifedBladez

I didn't read your whole post because I just had to respond. I hate these type of players so much lol. I rarely play pve content and this is one of the reasons. That environment can get so toxic.

Not to say it doesnt happen in pvp either. I remember saying something in zone chat the other day in Cyrodill only to have some smartass ask who I was.. he then went on to tell me that I'm mister nobody like people actually knew who he was lol. Are you *** kidding me dude? How cocky can one kid be?

On the xbox if you're not talking about how big your epeen is throughout the various chats you'll never get in with the "cool kids." Lol. And I'm okay with that.

TheDarkRuler

I agree to many of those.

In some Trials, especially Sanctum Ophidia and Maw of Lorkhaj, there are constantly 531+ DD with insane DPS but sometimes only 17k life with buff food. Also they often don't even block a heavy charge attack or dodge out of a red zone.
And if they die (and they do alot) it is always the fault of the others.

PurifedBladez

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

I agree to many of those.

In some Trials, especially Sanctum Ophidia and Maw of Lorkhaj, there are constantly 531+ DD with insane DPS but sometimes only 17k life with buff food. Also they often don't even block a heavy charge attack or dodge out of a red zone.
And if they die (and they do alot) it is always the fault of the others.

Makes me cringe. Lol.

redspecter23

Elitism can be a bad thing, but being a raid leader isn't an easy job. You have to say no to people sometimes for a variety of reasons. DPS isn't everything but with enrage timers in vet trials, it has to be considered. Your point about survivability is also important too. Too much time spent rezzing a squishy toon means less dps overall. These sort of factors should all be considered when putting together a vet trials group.

I guess my point is, if a raid lead denies a person, there is likely a reason for it. Talk with them and see if they can be honest about what you'd need to do to step it up and earn a spot in the rotation. Work for the slot. Run the norm trials and dungeon runs that the guild does. Get to know the group socially and you may find your way into vet trials groups easier in the future.

WikileaksEU

The worst thing is when someone is looking for a 500cp+ for a vet dungeon run when everyone knows that 160cp is max.

AntMan100673

There are people like this but they're in the minority. I've done content with some leet players and the vast majority of them are really helpful with explaining mechanics, offering advice etc. The only time they stick with their own is when they're doing leaderboard runs which is understandable and from doing non-leaderboard runs with people they can tell who's good so they don't rely on dps tests

Alcast

Movement + situation awarness > DPS

xblackroxe

First of all anybody that considers Bloodspawn as an actual good dps/skill test has no place in an trialguild that wants to do HM trials anyway. It just shows you can go through your rotation 2-3 times on a completely immovable target. Thats NOT skill.
If you want to see if a player can play through tactics look at his Manti/Serpent/Rakkat dps. That shows if somebody can dps and still not die in ***.
A good group can run with "squishy" 16-17k health dps/healers through every content in the game (even vMOL HM can be done this way as shown by BI the only ones though for now). There is little to nothing that wouldn´t also 1shot you on 20k.
As I have learned trough the last half a year there is much more to being a good dps than just being capable of doing your rotation. Be aware of what happens around you, don´t stand in red, block/dodge when needed. Amazes me every time how many people can´t seem to get the concept of blocking in their head.

To your statement that the game is "controlled" by those "elitists" (god I hate when people use this word as an excuse for being bad) is simply not true. How do you guess those people got the stuff you think you need to complete the very content those items drop from? Right they started doing it with other stuff and still got it done. The best dps set (TBS) for almost every build is crafted, Willpower can be farmed/bought and if you can´t get Nerien´eth or Kena you don´t belong into vet trials anyway.

As for saying nobody gets into those "elite" circles is bs. Earn it, as simple as that. Show us that you are capable to do vet trials and you get a chance. There are enough guilds out there full of people that don´t know trials and are eager to learn them with same minded people. And don´t forget all those "elitists" guilds also started out with no knowledge (vMOL mostly as not much changed in revamped trials) and worked out tactics. I find it actually funny how people bash us while we provide everybody with videos of our clear explanation videos on how to do the whole trial but still get *** for not helping.

Also at least on EU PC we are mostly pretty friendly between the top guilds as you can see on @Woeler ´s report about gamescom. There is near to no hate/shittalk between those guilds. Though ofcourse there is still rivalry as only one can be the best :P

The next time you see someone's name on a leaderboard, or hear about how "good" so and so is...? Pause for a moment, and really think about it. Take a second and wonder how it is that so and so got there, and wonder how they treat others. And be sure to wonder those things, before you go praising them as many of the clueless do. Because I can tell for a fact, that a solid 50% of "top-tier" people on PS4 NA are not who you think they are. And are quite toxic and practice predatory behavior.

I don´t know how it is on ps4 but I have yet to meet a toxic player from a real top guild on EU. We get on the leaderboard because we are groups of 12 people that know how to play this game and trust in each other that we don´t f*ck up most of the time.

Doctordarkspawn

Given the design with Shadows of the Hist seems to contradict this entirely, we may not see this for much longer.

For the longest time the DPS reigned supreme, more damage, allways more damage, to the point where designers are now having to design mechanics specifically to break that. Their trying to untrain the 'Burn through it' mentality. So we may not see it for much longer.

As for eliteism....lets be real, I've got people who thought certain behavior was tied to CP level. Eliteist *** will allways exist. They were born in the fires of Mythic raids, and they ain' going away.

LadyNalcarya

Cant really add more to what Alcast and xblackroxe said.
Bloodspawn test can be used to compare 2 different setups or rotations, and other utility purposes, but the only valuable parses are those from vet trials.

Toast_STS

What about a solo blood spawn test? Took me a couple tries and it took me about 2 minutes by myself. Can't really imagine doing that on anything but a stam sorc though.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Toast STS/video/20960244

LadyNalcarya

@Toast_STS wrote: »

What about a solo blood spawn test? Took me a couple tries and it took me about 2 minutes by myself. Can't really imagine doing that on anything but a stam sorc though.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Toast STS/video/20960244

Well, when we're talking about bloodspawn tests, it actually means solo test (with a tank and healer, but they wont add any dps).

Toast_STS

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@Toast_STS wrote: »

What about a solo blood spawn test? Took me a couple tries and it took me about 2 minutes by myself. Can't really imagine doing that on anything but a stam sorc though.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Toast STS/video/20960244

Well, when we're talking about bloodspawn tests, it actually means solo test (with a tank and healer, but they wont add any dps).

Yes, so doing it by yourself will show your survivabilty because you have to tank, heal and DPS yourself. I don't think it's much harder than vMA though so the Stormproof title is probably just as good.

Wifeaggro13

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

In MMO's all over, DPS rotations that are preferred over another and following a meta has been a thing. Always. But, on a game like ESO is it really needed?

Time and time again when I'm running trials with people, I'm hearing about this and that person scored such and such Bloodspawn time. And how serious "deeps" they have. But, when we're actually in the middle of the trial? Those same people pulling the supposed "high DPS" are dying all over the place, and then blaming healers and tanks for their mistakes. When in fact, it was their faul for standing in the red or thinking they're Superman. Not cool. And all this then leads to someone trying to tell someone else their role, and you have drama erupt. When in fact, if a person who was taken along who knew the mechanics has had consistent and solid DPS should've been brought along. Not just a person who knows a rotation or 2, and cheesed the supposed test with gear and items they'd never use in an actual trial.

Which leads right into that. People in DPS tests using gear that they'd never use in an actual trial, just to appear good. Supposedly it is to simulate the buffs you get in a trial, but 9x out of 10 that isn't the case. Yesterday in getting my Shehai Shatterer for my Sorcerer, there was a gentleman who supposedly had all this damage this and that. And 1 player even called a king or God. Something along those lines. And upon running VHRC with them, their DPS was below subpar. When asked why his damage was lacking so much, his response was how if he used his DPS testing gear — he'd die all the time. And be too squishy. Eh? So he was considered, because of something he can't even reproduce in an environment where it truly matters? Really though? But, someone who was solid and could maintain solid health and high damage was cast aside due to them missing the "magic time" by 2-3 seconds for a guy who can't even come close...?

And that ties into giving people a chance to shine. Too many times I'm seeing people who are more than capable of doing content that's high-end get forgone, all due to go instead with people who have constant completions. While I understand the appeal of going with experienced players to get content done, as bosses have enrage timers and things of that sort — these trial guilds are forgetting that people have to learn eventually. And with the so-called "elite" and "hardcore" constantly quitting, or getting banned for actually exploiting some how (this is a huge problem on PS4 NA) — the people who aren't "elite" have to start from somewhere. But, it's like no one wants to help these buds grow as players. Sure you have some players who are bad at the game, and refuse to acknowledge what you say when attempting to help them get better. But, what about those who do acknowledge what is said to them? And what about those who do in fact take the words of advice to heart? I'm tired of seeing people not given a chance, that really deserve it. While the so called "elite" aren't so elite, and are basically mediocre players with reputations built on rumors and he-say-she-say.

And lastly, that ties into the "elite" controlling the game as a whole. That may sound ridiculous, but look. Peep game. You have currently hard content, or relatively hard content that is supposedly there to drop gold jewelry and things that make strong layers stronger. Right? So to say a mediocre or medium-tier player, it's out of reach. They can't get better, because they have no one who's willing to take them through the content and really work with them; to help them get this amazing gear. So what you then have there is in guild traders pieces going for ridiculous amounts of gold. And let's be honest, your average player doesn't have 750k-1M gold to bust down on some of these pieces. They don't. Unless they're buying gold off people, and spending their time farming and refining. And even then, that's time that could be spent bettering their skills and honing their knowledge of mechanics to get better.

And lastly, that ties into people basically buying their way into things. A few times now I've been confronted by people, and asked if they could pay me a few hundred thousand to carry them through a trial or dungeon. Absolutely not. That is the most disturbing thing I have come across to date while being heavy in the trial scene. But apparently, this is a very popular thing with those I've spoken with. People who supposedly aren't talented enough, or having connections tight enough to be brought along in a trial having to essentially buy their way into the scene. And that's not right. That's not right at all. That's horrible. Because first of all, it's basically running someone through something they have no clue about it. Preventing them from learning things systematically, and just speeding them through content that should be learned. Not sped through. And also, it is basically taking gold away from someone that they could be spending on some gear or items to help them improve as a player. But instead is being shelled out for the wrong reasons.

So as you can see, there's a lot of issues with things currently at the end-game PVE scene socially speaking. But, they could be fixed if enough light is shed on these things and ZOS addresses them swiftly. I'm tired of seeing and hearing horror stories of people getting mistreated by the "elite", and seeing and hearing the same people doing the mistreatment. Also, I hope this post will provide some insight on somethings for those interested in getting into serious PVE. The next time you see someone's name on a leaderboard, or hear about how "good" so and so is...? Pause for a moment, and really think about it. Take a second and wonder how it is that so and so got there, and wonder how they treat others. And be sure to wonder those things, before you go praising them as many of the clueless do. Because I can tell for a fact, that a solid 50% of "top-tier" people on PS4 NA are not who you think they are. And are quite toxic and practice predatory behavior.

The biggest problem In all of the dynamics, is there is too many dps roles , no true utility or Cc, 1 dedicated healer, 1 off dps healer, 1 tank and maybe room for off tank dps. I agree with dps elitism, it's more evidence t in this mmo then in any game I've ever played.

I just returned to game and end picked up end game runs again. Though Zos made some strides in tanking in the Soth dungeons, and the new trials seem mechanic heavy which is good. The base line was set with the nonsensical leader boards being all about speed of completing. I am not a fan of ESO end game design. I think they missed the mark with their weird trinity design. MMO'S with solid end games used more roles then three.the games that tried the let's do away with the Trinity failed miserably, and their end game is open world zero bosses. Not really content that satisfied people. They all added cash shops to just buy the gear that really didn't matter anyhow.

Now I am in no way condemning these high end guilds conquering the content. They are skilled, but they have been forced into 8 people playing the same meta and having good situational awareness. Most of them would be excellent in the other roles had Zos not gone with this simplistic dps meta.

bebynnag

you forgot to mention the sillyness that goes on regarding meta builds in PvE

i had a tank, it was a good tank, it did its job very well, but because i wasnt copying somebody elses build & instead spent time working on & finding a good solid build myself i was shoved aside over & over & over again

hence race change, and now i have a fun build i can enjoy,

DRXHarbinger

All these dps *** are deluded anyway dude. They only have that for 40s and they are out of resources so doing nothing. That's why esp on console the super hard content is hard as all they want is stam DKs that can't pull 10k dps after 45s...but still bruh. ..did bloodspawn in 30s..means I r entitled.

MaxwellC

@Ch4mpTW How I felt when I saw your text


But I'm not sure what platform/ server you're playing on but many trade guilds run trials and I haven't dealt with this and I mainly DPS trials. No one blames in-fact people are usually laughing and joking around.

susmitds

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

I agree to many of those.

In some Trials, especially Sanctum Ophidia and Maw of Lorkhaj, there are constantly 531+ DD with insane DPS but sometimes only 17k life with buff food. Also they often don't even block a heavy charge attack or dodge out of a red zone.
And if they die (and they do alot) it is always the fault of the others.

Well, in my case, VO+TBS+vMA gear leaves me at only 15.8 k HP buffed being a Khajiit. What I can do for that? I can't afford to drop stamina either as I have only around 30k.

Ch4mpTW

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Ch4mpTW How I felt when I saw your text


But I'm not sure what platform/ server you're playing on but many trade guilds run trials and I haven't dealt with this and I mainly DPS trials. No one blames in-fact people are usually laughing and joking around.

@MaxwellCrystal
LOL! Bask in the wall of text. Let it ooze. :P

Humatiel

Every single vet trial has a dps check of some sort, because of that dps check there is a need for a dps test.

its that simple.

Silver_Strider

I was in a Trial Guild for the longest time, cleared every trial with them, did all achievements, etc.

As time went on however, they started to put more strict requirements to a point of telling us what we outright needed to wear in trials which I felt was beyond necessary because we were getting LB rankings every time, sometimes with multiple characters even, without the ridiculous conditions they had set up. Caused a massive divide in the guild as some people had done all this content successfully and had gold those sets they were using for trials so when told to change those sets for the "trial required" sets needless to say they were not happy, which is understandable considering the time is takes to farm some sets or the materials to make the sets.

So many people left as a result, myself included, even though I was already in 1 of the approved sets (Sunderflame) because I didn't agree with the policy and the majority of people that left were my friends that had gotten me into the guild in the 1st place and staying felt like a betrayal to them.

Now, I don't even see a single one of the members from that guild in the LB anymore.

OutLaw_Nynx

If I could hug a thread this would be the one

timidobserver

Console gamers are strange animals. As a PC ESO player that is in the leadership is a somewhat high-end endgame guild, constantly runs vet trials, and has finished vMoL probably somewhere near 20+ times, I have never(not even 1 time) heard anyone mention the term "bloodspawn test" in game. The only reason I know that it is a thing is console players constantly complaining about it on forums. I know that I would be more likely to group with a 20k dps that can do the colors right in vMoL over a 80k bloodpawn dps.

Has anyone on PC ever experienced this "bloodspawn test" elitism phenomenon?

KramUzibra

PurifedBladez wrote: »

I didn't read your whole post because I just had to respond. I hate these type of players so much lol. I rarely play pve content and this is one of the reasons. That environment can get so toxic.

Not to say it doesnt happen in pvp either. I remember saying something in zone chat the other day in Cyrodill only to have some smartass ask who I was.. he then went on to tell me that I'm mister nobody like people actually knew who he was lol. Are you *** kidding me dude? How cocky can one kid be?

On the xbox if you're not talking about how big your epeen is throughout the various chats you'll never get in with the "cool kids." Lol. And I'm okay with that.

Whats wrong with being extremely good at a game and proudly announcing it to the world? How is it toxic to want to team up with the best of the best? I don't think other players should degrade or belittle you but I'll be the first to tell you if you're doing something wrong or if there's a particular area that you should improve on especially if we're running a dungeon on trial.

RoyJade

Our requirement for veteran raid roster :
- being able to put at least 20k dps on the Bloodspawn (strictly no buff/debuff given, not even pierce armor).
- after two or three raid, being able to follow the raidlead's order.
- being able to react fastly and efficiently (red circle, aggro loss, rez, and most of all in-combat role changes (when a distant man died against the Mantikora, for example)). Vet mantikora is a really good test for that.
- ultimately, being able to put a good amount of dps (for the class, we know some classes don't have the same dps as other, but each have their tool and we need them) with a 30 second end-of-combat timer so with the movement, death and rez.

But we are a guild with several people who want to run the dungeon, our "optimized"run are only a quarter of our weekly raid.


Oh, and something important : we have some "optimizer" officer being able to help for each roles and classes, and the "I want to run optimized raid" process include some optimization and training, all our member can freely test and those who can do the work alway end on our optimized roster. That's something a random group can't do, neither can a pure optimized group (because we are far much slower with this process). We are slower, we are not the best, but we don't leave someone if he really want to.

LadyNalcarya

Toast_STS wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

@Toast_STS wrote: »

What about a solo blood spawn test? Took me a couple tries and it took me about 2 minutes by myself. Can't really imagine doing that on anything but a stam sorc though.

http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Toast STS/video/20960244

Well, when we're talking about bloodspawn tests, it actually means solo test (with a tank and healer, but they wont add any dps).

Yes, so doing it by yourself will show your survivabilty because you have to tank, heal and DPS yourself. I don't think it's much harder than vMA though so the Stormproof title is probably just as good.

Easier than stormproof title.
vMA at least has some mechanics and you need to remember the spawns... In case of bloodspawn you only need to dodge his charged attack and maybe use some vigor during his ground bash ^^

Rohamad_Ali

If PvE l33ts would spend more time clearing trash mobs and bosses then arguing in open mic dungeon theory night , people would get twice the runs in every day No one cares about your ultra deeps theories if you can't stay out of the red an faceroll in Blood spawn .

Save the conversation for after the run . After the loot is picked up feel free to say gg but next time blank would be better .

BRUH .... maek em stahp plz .