What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?
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Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Seriously ZOS just go get a gambling license and make a SEPARATE product with all your IPs in it, make THAT your collectibles-based gambling arcade and leave it out of your good, more legitimate products. I'm still in complete shock that you thought this was OK.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster9 -
b92303008rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.I don't really feel like going back to WoW when Legion launches. But I guess terrible news like this leaves me no options. At least Blizzard does one thing right, they don't do loot boxes.5 -
kaorunandrak✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Sorry but I don't want CARTEL market 2.0, this is what SWTOR did and it was stupid and deceitful, they have been busted time and time again that their loot boxes drop crap items more often then not. Those boxes led to them adding housing/base customization to the cartel market and adding more and more restrictions to the game. I can't support this I hope it blows up in your face so it can go away and we can get back to fixing and developing the game for the betterment of all rather then stupid one sides gambling.Guild Leader of The Crimson Moon PVE/PVP NA
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ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gambleIt still is Wucher in Germany and illegal to offer such a deal - it does not even have to be in the real world, this law applies to any kind of world, even a virtual one, because it is about taking advantage of someone by abusing his/her weaknesses.
Makes me wonder if ZOS has consulted local/country laws before coming up with this concept. Because I know other games do exactly the same thing and they're still operating world-wide.
But they do not have their server in germany - this makes a difference, because ZOS has their EU servers in Germany, and so the offer is issued from germany and is under german jurisdiction by that.
Ah, I didn't know that. Hopefully @ZOS_MattFiror and @ZOS_BrianWheeler have looked into the legality issue in Germany.CP: 1965 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****1 -
Morimizo✭✭✭✭✭No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gambleLegally this is not gamblingEncouraging gambling is completely irresponsible, and it is my opinion that ZOS should have to get a Gambling License to implement this feature
This feature, no matter how many other games also implement it, is repugnant.
I agree, but legally it is not gambling because of one fact, you purchase the boxes/RNG items using exclusively the game's own currency which legally as no monetary value except to the company in question, thats how they bypass the laws.
This is the one main reason why online games have their own currency systems for buying virtual items it voids them of all and every consumer law.
The only item that involves a monetary transaction and which is covered by consumer laws worldwide is the purchase of (in this company's case) 'Crowns' and as long as you receive the correct amount of Crowns you agreed to pay for the company as complied with the law, from there on you are on your own and the company can do whatever they want concerning items purchased via Crowns all because as mentioned Crowns are not a legally recognised currency.
Casinos use tokens to put into slot machines/poker tables/etc.. That are bought with real cash. The transfer does not mean it is no longer gambling. If this is a loophole like you say, it's bogus and should be changed.
You are, if you choose to pay for this, using real currency, to pay for a random reward, which has a very low chance of being what you wanted in the first place.
If they get away with it not being gambling, it's because you're getting "something" in return, even if it is something you already have, or something normally cheaper than the Lock Box.
Any way you slice it, it's pure greed; they are going to make way more money for an item (especially the exclusive ones) than the market would normally be willing to pay. Due to RNG, they may not have to part with the item at all, which, if the item were a tangible product, would save them a mint, but since it's a digital entity, is just more icing anyway.2 -
elvenmad✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.It still is Wucher in Germany and illegal to offer such a deal - it does not even have to be in the real world, this law applies to any kind of world, even a virtual one, because it is about taking advantage of someone by abusing his/her weaknesses.
Makes me wonder if ZOS has consulted local/country laws before coming up with this concept. Because I know other games do exactly the same thing and they're still operating world-wide.
But they do not have their server in germany - this makes a difference, because ZOS has their EU servers in Germany, and so the offer is issued from germany and is under german jurisdiction by that.
Interesting point, but it reminded me of Blade and soul, which also has eu servers also based in Germany BUT the owner of the company who hires the server is based in Texas US.... and also their 'game' servers are based in Germany BUT their cash shop server and also the IP address of their online cash transaction site is located in Texas , so my point yes their game server is located in Germany BUT everything is legally based in the the US and only has to comply with US laws.
Edited by elvenmad on August 20, 2016 9:44PM< PC - EU >0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game..It still is Wucher in Germany and illegal to offer such a deal - it does not even have to be in the real world, this law applies to any kind of world, even a virtual one, because it is about taking advantage of someone by abusing his/her weaknesses.
Makes me wonder if ZOS has consulted local/country laws before coming up with this concept. Because I know other games do exactly the same thing and they're still operating world-wide.
But they do not have their server in germany - this makes a difference, because ZOS has their EU servers in Germany, and so the offer is issued from germany and is under german jurisdiction by that.
Ah, I didn't know that. Hopefully @ZOS_MattFiror and @ZOS_BrianWheeler have looked into the legality issue in Germany.
It is not the only issue which could be brought forward - the RNG concept might as well be a violation of local gambling laws - but I did not even use that, Wucher is not related to gambling at all - it is a general thing about taking advantage of people by abusing their weaknesses for increased business gains - and this is immoral and illegal in Germany.4 -
Thevampirenight✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.It still is Wucher in Germany and illegal to offer such a deal - it does not even have to be in the real world, this law applies to any kind of world, even a virtual one, because it is about taking advantage of someone by abusing his/her weaknesses.
Makes me wonder if ZOS has consulted local/country laws before coming up with this concept. Because I know other games do exactly the same thing and they're still operating world-wide.
But they do not have their server in germany - this makes a difference, because ZOS has their EU servers in Germany, and so the offer is issued from germany and is under german jurisdiction by that.
Interesting point, but it reminded me of Blade and soul, which also has eu servers also based in Germany BUT the owner of the company who hires the server is based in Texas US.... and also their 'game' servers are based in Germany BUT their cash shop server and also the IP address of their online cash transaction site is located in Texas , so my point yes their game server is located in Germany BUT everything is legally based in the the US and only has to comply with US laws.
Well its possible they will do this or already doing it, its a loophole they could exploit. I imagine they won't get in any trouble over it. Since its a Usa based company and also because they might not have the crownstore directly connected to the game server but its possibly a outside source tied to the server.Edited by Thevampirenight on August 20, 2016 9:48PMPC NA
Please add Fangs to Vampires.1 -
Denaia✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Well chances are no one has ever been sued because of these so called loot boxes.. while justice departments haven't found it very interesting to look into.
I wonder if anyone knows if there is any jurisprudence in regards to people sueing companies because of gamble boxes?0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.It still is Wucher in Germany and illegal to offer such a deal - it does not even have to be in the real world, this law applies to any kind of world, even a virtual one, because it is about taking advantage of someone by abusing his/her weaknesses.
Makes me wonder if ZOS has consulted local/country laws before coming up with this concept. Because I know other games do exactly the same thing and they're still operating world-wide.
But they do not have their server in germany - this makes a difference, because ZOS has their EU servers in Germany, and so the offer is issued from germany and is under german jurisdiction by that.
Interesting point, but it reminded me of Blade and soul, which also has eu servers also based in Germany BUT the owner of the company who hires the server is based in Texas US.... and also their 'game' servers are based in Germany BUT their cash shop server and also the IP address of their online cash transaction site is located in Texas , so my point yes their game server is located in Germany BUT everything is legally based in the the US and only has to comply with US laws.
No that is not the case - let ZOS offer this, I will contact the officials in germany - resp. my lawyers will - and then this will be investigated - most likely ZOS will get a fine and has to take it down or move their servers out of germany - if they continue doing it, the servers will be confiscated - for ongoing criminal activity - this will not violate our laws in germany, I am a lawful person and will bring this to the attention of officials.Edited by Lysette on August 20, 2016 9:50PM4 -
Thevampirenight✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Well chances are no one has ever been sued because of these so called loot boxes.. while justice departments haven't found it very interesting to look into.
I wonder if anyone knows if there is any jurisprudence in regards to people sueing companies because of gamble boxes?
I do think it is something they need to handle I think it would help with companies like cryptic from expoiting players. But yeah since these are major corporations. I imagine they would be able to get away with a lot of crap that normal people could not get away with.Edited by Thevampirenight on August 20, 2016 9:53PMPC NA
Please add Fangs to Vampires.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Well chances are no one has ever been sued because of these so called loot boxes.. while justice departments haven't found it very interesting to look into.
I wonder if anyone knows if there is any jurisprudence in regards to people sueing companies because of gamble boxes?
this is not a case where people would have to sue them - this is a crime investigation and is done for free by german officials. If there is a problem, the state will sue them, not a civilian. But it could be shut down immediately - there is something called "einstweilige Verfügung", where a judge orders to shut it down until the court case is in progress or ruled - this can mean the servers will be down for months.Edited by Lysette on August 20, 2016 9:56PM1 -
Denaia✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Well chances are no one has ever been sued because of these so called loot boxes.. while justice departments haven't found it very interesting to look into.
I wonder if anyone knows if there is any jurisprudence in regards to people sueing companies because of gamble boxes?
this is not a case where people would have to sue them - this is a crime investigation and is done for free by german officials. If there is a problem, the state will sue them, not a civilian.
I am not sure if this is actual criminal activity. I would earlier say it's a civilian issue where games bankrupt someone because of the gambling, that's atleast the area where I would think jurisprudence would come from.
The reason that this is criminal is sketchy at best imo. But would certainly be a nice investigation, but not something I think either the German or European justice department would be interested in.1 -
Thevampirenight✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Well chances are no one has ever been sued because of these so called loot boxes.. while justice departments haven't found it very interesting to look into.
I wonder if anyone knows if there is any jurisprudence in regards to people sueing companies because of gamble boxes?
this is not a case where people would have to sue them - this is a crime investigation and is done for free by german officials. If there is a problem, the state will sue them, not a civilian.
I am not sure if this is actual criminal activity. I would earlier say it's a civilian issue where games bankrupt someone because of the gambling, that's atleast the area where I would think jurisprudence would come from.
The reason that this is criminal is sketchy at best imo. But would certainly be a nice investigation, but not something I think either the German or European justice department would be interested in.
They would not be able to do anything until they add the lootcrates. Otherwise I don't think they will be able to legally do anything. Its plausible that they will make the crownstore based from U.S if it is not already to avoid that law. They can't do anything if the crownstore is based somewhere else But connected to the Eu server. Like someone mentioned in a post above or on the previous pages. Which I assume is how some corporations world wide cheat taxes and laws they otherwise would be bound to.Edited by Thevampirenight on August 20, 2016 10:01PMPC NA
Please add Fangs to Vampires.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Well chances are no one has ever been sued because of these so called loot boxes.. while justice departments haven't found it very interesting to look into.
I wonder if anyone knows if there is any jurisprudence in regards to people sueing companies because of gamble boxes?
this is not a case where people would have to sue them - this is a crime investigation and is done for free by german officials. If there is a problem, the state will sue them, not a civilian.
I am not sure if this is actual criminal activity. I would earlier say it's a civilian issue where games bankrupt someone because of the gambling, that's atleast the area where I would think jurisprudence would come from.
The reason that this is criminal is sketchy at best imo. But would certainly be a nice investigation, but not something I think either the German or European justice department would be interested in.
No, Wucher is a crime - it is just investigated if you apply for them to investigate it - but once it is announced, the law enforcement will have to investigate it if they want it or not. This is not a thing, where there has to be actual damage - the offer alone of such an immoral deal is an unlawful act.
The typical case of Wucher is for example in credit shark business - anything above 25% p.a. is Wucher and such deals are illegal.
And let's look at the facts in this case:
1. it is an offer made to significantly increase the payment for a certain item
2. it is taking advantage of a weakness of the contract partner - addiction, self-control issues
3. it is abusive and eventually even forbidden gambling
So there are more than one thing which can catch the attention of the officials - gambling is a privilege of the state in Germany - all lotteries are state driven, casinos are state-driven - this is not a small violation if they make money with this under german jurisdiction.Edited by Lysette on August 20, 2016 10:08PM1 -
Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NO NO NO to lockboxes! Even if these aren't technically lockboxes that drop in the game, they're still gambling boxes.
Between that and this: "-Scaling in all zones and areas" I may uninstall this game. That is not at all what I want in a MMORPG which is one reason this one appealed to me so much. Scaling in all zones and real-life money gambling? They can take them and shove them where sun don't shine.6 -
jeevin✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Bouldercleave wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.
So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.
The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.
Bad enough that you do not see it as reasonable, if we do not want to support a game which preys on people with a gambling addiction and those who have low self-control, when it comes to getting what they want - some of them will spend thousands of dollars on this - I have seen that in Archeage - they might even get themselves and their families into real nasty situations due to that they have no control over this or are too weak - this is not that far from what Cazzy said - but it does not apply just to Cazzy - and it can effect even those, who are not yet having this problem - they can get addicted to gambling.
I guess we could all just live in individual bubbles and hope that no one talks to, takes advantage of, or bumps into us.
Honestly, it is NOT ZoS responsibility if you can't control yourself. I am a FIRM believer in personal responsibility. A select few have a legitimate problem, but the vast majority just use it as a cop out.
I have to STRONGLY disagree with you here @Bouldercleave. It's deeply troubling that any company would prey on those people with any sort of addictive personality or gambling addiction. What's far worse is the exposure of supposedly harmless lock box gambling to children and the young people who are naive to such things. My closest friend has struggled with gambling addiction for all of his adult life and it seemingly most likely stems from exposure to gambling at a young age.
Let's be clear here, these "locked boxes" are designed to stimulate the exact same chemical response in the brain as gambling on poker machines. They are designed to take advantage of the way our puny little brains are wired to get cash out of us. They pollute the games we love to play and the world at large. They are evil and the people at Zos who made the decision to put gambling in their game should be ashamed.
It saddens me to see others defend such tactics.11 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsIt still is Wucher in Germany and illegal to offer such a deal - it does not even have to be in the real world, this law applies to any kind of world, even a virtual one, because it is about taking advantage of someone by abusing his/her weaknesses.
Makes me wonder if ZOS has consulted local/country laws before coming up with this concept. Because I know other games do exactly the same thing and they're still operating world-wide.
But they do not have their server in germany - this makes a difference, because ZOS has their EU servers in Germany, and so the offer is issued from germany and is under german jurisdiction by that.
Interesting point, but it reminded me of Blade and soul, which also has eu servers also based in Germany BUT the owner of the company who hires the server is based in Texas US.... and also their 'game' servers are based in Germany BUT their cash shop server and also the IP address of their online cash transaction site is located in Texas , so my point yes their game server is located in Germany BUT everything is legally based in the the US and only has to comply with US laws.
No that is not the case - let ZOS offer this, I will contact the officials in germany - resp. my lawyers will - and then this will be investigated - most likely ZOS will get a fine and has to take it down or move their servers out of germany - if they continue doing it, the servers will be confiscated - for ongoing criminal activity - this will not violate our laws in germany, I am a lawful person and will bring this to the attention of officials.
LOL - best of luck with that my little white knight... Dragging that halo around must be such a burdenEdited by Bouldercleave on August 20, 2016 10:14PM5 -
Morimizo✭✭✭✭✭No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gambleBouldercleave wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.
So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.
The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.
Bad enough that you do not see it as reasonable, if we do not want to support a game which preys on people with a gambling addiction and those who have low self-control, when it comes to getting what they want - some of them will spend thousands of dollars on this - I have seen that in Archeage - they might even get themselves and their families into real nasty situations due to that they have no control over this or are too weak - this is not that far from what Cazzy said - but it does not apply just to Cazzy - and it can effect even those, who are not yet having this problem - they can get addicted to gambling.
I guess we could all just live in individual bubbles and hope that no one talks to, takes advantage of, or bumps into us.
Honestly, it is NOT ZoS responsibility if you can't control yourself. I am a FIRM believer in personal responsibility. A select few have a legitimate problem, but the vast majority just use it as a cop out.
I have to STRONGLY disagree with you here @Bouldercleave. It's deeply troubling that any company would prey on those people with any sort of addictive personality or gambling addiction. What's far worse is the exposure of supposedly harmless lock box gambling to children and the young people who are naive to such things. My closest friend has struggled with gambling addiction for all of his adult life and it seemingly most likely stems from exposure to gambling at a young age.
Let's be clear here, these "locked boxes" are designed to stimulate the exact same chemical response in the brain as gambling on poker machines. They are designed to take advantage of the way our puny little brains are wired to get cash out of us. They pollute the games we love to play and the world at large. They are evil and the people at Zos who made the decision to put gambling in their game should be ashamed.
It saddens me to see others defend such tactics.
Well said, @jeevin .Edited by Morimizo on August 20, 2016 10:13PM2 -
Runs✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.I wonder if this will be done like it is in some of the other games that have these kinds of boxes/spin to win wheels...
Every time someone wins something or something of value we all see it...
I want to specify if that *** starts flooding my screen there will be no waiting. I will quit on the spot.
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Bouldercleave wrote: »It still is Wucher in Germany and illegal to offer such a deal - it does not even have to be in the real world, this law applies to any kind of world, even a virtual one, because it is about taking advantage of someone by abusing his/her weaknesses.
Makes me wonder if ZOS has consulted local/country laws before coming up with this concept. Because I know other games do exactly the same thing and they're still operating world-wide.
But they do not have their server in germany - this makes a difference, because ZOS has their EU servers in Germany, and so the offer is issued from germany and is under german jurisdiction by that.
Interesting point, but it reminded me of Blade and soul, which also has eu servers also based in Germany BUT the owner of the company who hires the server is based in Texas US.... and also their 'game' servers are based in Germany BUT their cash shop server and also the IP address of their online cash transaction site is located in Texas , so my point yes their game server is located in Germany BUT everything is legally based in the the US and only has to comply with US laws.
No that is not the case - let ZOS offer this, I will contact the officials in germany - resp. my lawyers will - and then this will be investigated - most likely ZOS will get a fine and has to take it down or move their servers out of germany - if they continue doing it, the servers will be confiscated - for ongoing criminal activity - this will not violate our laws in germany, I am a lawful person and will bring this to the attention of officials.
LOL - best of luck with that my little white knight...
Well, it does not cost me anything - this is all paid for by the state - so why not try it. I am just a lawful citizen bringing this to the attention of officials and those have to act on it then - and I use lawyers to bring that to their attention, that it is not pushed under the carpet.Edited by Lysette on August 20, 2016 10:17PM3 -
LadyNalcarya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Bouldercleave wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.
So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.
The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.
Bad enough that you do not see it as reasonable, if we do not want to support a game which preys on people with a gambling addiction and those who have low self-control, when it comes to getting what they want - some of them will spend thousands of dollars on this - I have seen that in Archeage - they might even get themselves and their families into real nasty situations due to that they have no control over this or are too weak - this is not that far from what Cazzy said - but it does not apply just to Cazzy - and it can effect even those, who are not yet having this problem - they can get addicted to gambling.
I guess we could all just live in individual bubbles and hope that no one talks to, takes advantage of, or bumps into us.
Honestly, it is NOT ZoS responsibility if you can't control yourself. I am a FIRM believer in personal responsibility. A select few have a legitimate problem, but the vast majority just use it as a cop out.
I have to STRONGLY disagree with you here @Bouldercleave. It's deeply troubling that any company would prey on those people with any sort of addictive personality or gambling addiction. What's far worse is the exposure of supposedly harmless lock box gambling to children and the young people who are naive to such things. My closest friend has struggled with gambling addiction for all of his adult life and it seemingly most likely stems from exposure to gambling at a young age.
Let's be clear here, these "locked boxes" are designed to stimulate the exact same chemical response in the brain as gambling on poker machines. They are designed to take advantage of the way our puny little brains are wired to get cash out of us. They pollute the games we love to play and the world at large. They are evil and the people at Zos who made the decision to put gambling in their game should be ashamed.
It saddens me to see others defend such tactics.
I agree.
I know of some people who literally lost everything they had because of slot machine addiction. And I greatly despise this kind of stuff.
Too bad there's no laws to regulate those things in video games... At least casinos need special licences etc which makes setting it up a little bit more difficult. And even in rl casinos slot machines are being rigged, and non-transparent software makes it even easier to tamper with... Which is, of course, often used by greedy developers. Its such a shame.
Edited by LadyNalcarya on August 20, 2016 10:20PMDro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason
PC/EU5 -
No, don't ever add these into the game.I left STO because of BS like this, if you need more money out of the crown store ZOS let's have a reasonable discussion about what the community is willing to pay for without resorting to gambling6
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Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.KoshkaMurka wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.
So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.
The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.
Bad enough that you do not see it as reasonable, if we do not want to support a game which preys on people with a gambling addiction and those who have low self-control, when it comes to getting what they want - some of them will spend thousands of dollars on this - I have seen that in Archeage - they might even get themselves and their families into real nasty situations due to that they have no control over this or are too weak - this is not that far from what Cazzy said - but it does not apply just to Cazzy - and it can effect even those, who are not yet having this problem - they can get addicted to gambling.
I guess we could all just live in individual bubbles and hope that no one talks to, takes advantage of, or bumps into us.
Honestly, it is NOT ZoS responsibility if you can't control yourself. I am a FIRM believer in personal responsibility. A select few have a legitimate problem, but the vast majority just use it as a cop out.
I have to STRONGLY disagree with you here @Bouldercleave. It's deeply troubling that any company would prey on those people with any sort of addictive personality or gambling addiction. What's far worse is the exposure of supposedly harmless lock box gambling to children and the young people who are naive to such things. My closest friend has struggled with gambling addiction for all of his adult life and it seemingly most likely stems from exposure to gambling at a young age.
Let's be clear here, these "locked boxes" are designed to stimulate the exact same chemical response in the brain as gambling on poker machines. They are designed to take advantage of the way our puny little brains are wired to get cash out of us. They pollute the games we love to play and the world at large. They are evil and the people at Zos who made the decision to put gambling in their game should be ashamed.
It saddens me to see others defend such tactics.
I agree.
I know of some people who literally lost everything they had because of slot machine addiction. And I greatly despise this kind of stuff.
Too bad there's no laws to regulate those things in video games... At least casinos need special licences etc which makes setting it up a little bit more difficult. And even in rl casinos slot machines are being rigged, and non-transparent software makes it even easier to tamper with... Which is, of course, often used by greedy developers. Its such a shame.
This is the next thing what can be brought forward - offering a gamble deal without to state what the chances are - this might be illegal as well.
And then I am curious if ZOS is aware of, what lawyers cost per hour, who are capable to deal with both US laws and german laws - this would be around 1000-1500 US$ per hour - just saying.Edited by Lysette on August 20, 2016 10:28PM2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.timidobserver wrote: »As long as they don't put limited subscriber items like the first senche mount and the mask of cheerful slaughter in them I am fine with it.
As I understood it, they will give a chance, albeit very rare, to win such limited items... which I disagree with as it causes a gambling mentality, where players who have problems with gambling end up spending £100's.
I know may players in dcuo who spent litterally £100's for Booster Bundle boxes. When they didn't get that special aura, they bought another box and repeated until they got one. A business model like this takes advantage of people with such problems in self-control. That is quite shameless.
If this goes ahead, ZOS has lost my respect
They said they won't be adding subscriber reward items. It's still gambling for anything you want, but they aren't offering every item that's existed.
They also said they wouldn't stick lucky bags in the game. I have no faith they won't go back on that as well, and stick the tiger senche or ice wraith pet in the bags.3 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Not gonna argue about it, so didn't read the thread to make sure I don't say something that was mentioned already.
I just want to express my opinion:
I think, this is very very unfair to people who thought that the limited stuff they bought will be exclusive. That was the whole point, we thought. Some people would buy stuff they probably don't even like that much just so that they can stand out because later on it will be very rare.
I know, ZOS probably doesn't care, but please understand that you aggressive sales policy is very annoying and makes us think all you care about is money and making and selling crown-store stuff instead of balancing/improving the game. First you make stuff limited and add this timer that makes people nervous they will never be able buy something later so they have to buy it (that's how I got a guar mount that I never used, for example), even though we all know that it's digital and is not limited, there's an unlimited amount of those items, and then you brink them back, thus, devaluing the choices some players made.
It's unfair to them. If you want to have random boxes with previously unlimited stuff, at least have conscience and don't make unlimited stuff limited. Oh you are afraid it won't be convenient for us to navigate the crown store if it has too many items? Please don't worry about it. Just add the search tool. Or make a tab for "non-featured items" that would otherwise dissapear at all (cuz limited xd). And don't worry, we'll be just fine and you won't look like someone who just wants to milk us inventing all those "tricks". Your tricks are not as "tricky" and unobtrusive as you think.5 -
nathan_bri✭✭✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsAs long as they only contain cosmetic items, I have no problem with it. It allows people who enjoy a bit of risk some interesting items and siphons excess Crowns from the player base. This is especially helpful for players with ESO Plus who keep accumulating more and more unspent Crowns and for which none of the other options are appealing.0 -
Mortam✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.I am so sick of MMO's becoming a shopping/gambling thing - Was it so bad to just pay a sub and get access to the ENTIRE game....14
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Bouldercleave wrote: »You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.
So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.
The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.
Okay, let me explain why this is a problem.
Luckybags make A LOT of money for an MMO. It comes with increased turnover, but these things will keep companies going. Cryptic was pretty open at one point saying that they had players who were spending over 5k a year on keys.
Why does this matter? I mean, more money for the game, right? Actually... not so much.
So, when you're evaluating, as a developer, what to upgrade or fix in your game, you need to evaluate what your ROI is going to be. In a normal MMO, there's a serious incentive to fix issues with the game. That's where your money is coming from, that's what you need to fix.
But, lucky bags exist in, almost total, isolation from that. You have people who will pay to roll the dice endlessly.
This means, for a developer, if they've got a bugged achievement that won't award a cool skin for finishing a dungeon, or a bug that causes the lucky bags to pay out at a higher than intended rate... they're going to fix the bag drop rate right now, because that affects their bottom line. The other issue stays low on the priorities list.
Similarly, if you're looking at developing new content, the stuff that's going into the bag will be worth A LOT more to you, as a developer, so it will get higher priority than actual new content.
Finally, there's a huge incentive to making the bags more attractive to consumers. Initially it's enough to say, "well, just cosmetic stuff," but inevitably you're going to see stuff going into those bags that's more valuable than what you can get in game, just to keep people coming back. Stuff like: unique sets, or consumables that do things you cannot replicate in game. Consider that the XP scrolls are already considerably better than the ambrosia pots you can get in game naturally, simply because they last longer.
Now, initially you can say those unique sets aren't pay to win because they're not better than the ones in game, but the serious temptation will be to go that route. Even when ZOS has said they won't at this point. They also said they wouldn't be sticking luckybags in the game AT ALL, and have now gone back on that promise.
What you're seeing here is, actually, the death of the game. The luckybags will make more money than the normal content, meaning they'll get priority, they'll become more important to the developers than the game itself, simply because it makes them more money.
They're not holding a gun to anyone's head, but the decision to include these will warp and corrupt the entire development pipeline, just like it has for every other MMO that implemented a similar system.13 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsKoshkaMurka wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.
So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.
The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.
Bad enough that you do not see it as reasonable, if we do not want to support a game which preys on people with a gambling addiction and those who have low self-control, when it comes to getting what they want - some of them will spend thousands of dollars on this - I have seen that in Archeage - they might even get themselves and their families into real nasty situations due to that they have no control over this or are too weak - this is not that far from what Cazzy said - but it does not apply just to Cazzy - and it can effect even those, who are not yet having this problem - they can get addicted to gambling.
I guess we could all just live in individual bubbles and hope that no one talks to, takes advantage of, or bumps into us.
Honestly, it is NOT ZoS responsibility if you can't control yourself. I am a FIRM believer in personal responsibility. A select few have a legitimate problem, but the vast majority just use it as a cop out.
I have to STRONGLY disagree with you here @Bouldercleave. It's deeply troubling that any company would prey on those people with any sort of addictive personality or gambling addiction. What's far worse is the exposure of supposedly harmless lock box gambling to children and the young people who are naive to such things. My closest friend has struggled with gambling addiction for all of his adult life and it seemingly most likely stems from exposure to gambling at a young age.
Let's be clear here, these "locked boxes" are designed to stimulate the exact same chemical response in the brain as gambling on poker machines. They are designed to take advantage of the way our puny little brains are wired to get cash out of us. They pollute the games we love to play and the world at large. They are evil and the people at Zos who made the decision to put gambling in their game should be ashamed.
It saddens me to see others defend such tactics.
I agree.
I know of some people who literally lost everything they had because of slot machine addiction. And I greatly despise this kind of stuff.
Too bad there's no laws to regulate those things in video games... At least casinos need special licences etc which makes setting it up a little bit more difficult. And even in rl casinos slot machines are being rigged, and non-transparent software makes it even easier to tamper with... Which is, of course, often used by greedy developers. Its such a shame.
I know several people that have lost their lives because of smoking - knowing that it was bad for you.
You don't see me walking up and slapping cigarettes out of peoples mouths. It's freedom of choice. If you know that you can't handle it - then leave.
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