Icereach PC NA (Mulaamnir/Kyne/BWB NA PC - Final)

MajBludd

But you can potentially turn players off of pvp by doing thay. My first pvp experience was in auras when it was cp. With blood for the pact.
It sucked and I left pvp for a long time til I tried bwb. At that point I was vet rank or cp. Whatever it was at that point. Bwb brought me back to pvp.

So, I totally understand your point of view. But it's may not be the best approach to bring life back to pvp. Especially for those that started in vet pvp, hated it cause they didn't know wth was going on. Then you basically lock them from non vet. So how many does it actually bring to pvp and how many do you lose?

Valen_Byte

Its a tough one. Maybe zos just needs to have a presence in the servers. Maybe if they had GM's like they did at launch they would be able to catch these trolls/griefers and ban them. Like I said, I dont know the answer, but ther is one. Zos just needs to give a *** about lowbie pvp in general.

kringled_1

If you think that the people who are there primarily to troll/farm would be slowed even a bit by that, you're sadly optimistic. I can tell you from experience in other games: given how cheap additional ESO copies are, they'd just buy a second account, and delete characters at 49 and never level to vet ranks.
Meanwhile, players who know something about PvP and want to do more than repair walls would probably just never participate at below 50.
I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but I don't think your proposed solution would actually keep the worst offenders out of Kyne. It would keep out the people who have vet characters and want to learn PvP, and the people who are happy to teach new players.

Valen_Byte

kringled_1 wrote: »

If you think that the people who are there primarily to troll/farm would be slowed even a bit by that, you're sadly optimistic. I can tell you from experience in other games: given how cheap additional ESO copies are, they'd just buy a second account, and delete characters at 49 and never level to vet ranks.
Meanwhile, players who know something about PvP and want to do more than repair walls would probably just never participate at below 50.
I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, but I don't think your proposed solution would actually keep the worst offenders out of Kyne. It would keep out the people who have vet characters and want to learn PvP, and the people who are happy to teach new players.

True, and many of them have alt accounts already. Thats not the point. The point is @ZOS_BrianWheeler need to know that kyne has gone to *** because of trolls and griefers, and he needs to do something about it.

aaaaaand YOU are sadly whatever ; ))

kit_sune

lol kyne is a great place once you don't treat everything so deeply. People are stupid if they are going for asylum weapons with how th gear scaling works. TBH most people know how to play in kyne (70% imo but that's doesn't mean that they are good players) Are there something's that are overpowered in kyne? Yes. I'd say that it isn't overpowered just because of lower levels but lack of cp and gear scaling. That's why siege is so brutal in lowbie. Honestly the biggest problem with kyne now is how bigger the zergs are getting. The action isn't as fluid anymore. You'll have nights where the map is one color and the other two colors are just overwhelmed by numbers. It's fun gameplay for solo and small group but lately it's just been emp groups outnumbering everyone. I think that asylum weapons aren't such a big deal. I would never farm that but to each their own. I think it's a good time to take a look at ourselves and just enjoy this server for what it is. New players don't care about asylum weapons, dawnbreakers, meteors, golded weapons(which is dumb to do in kyne) and all the other stuff — they just want to experience and learn pvp.

Gederic

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Zos just needs to give a *** about lowbie pvp in general.

Do they? If you can give them the answers on how to make PvP in this game profitable for them maybe they'll grace you with the resolutions you seek.

We are talking about a company that took MONTHS to remove extra campaigns added for Midyear Mayhem. That's how little they actually care about the state PvP in this game, and from a business standpoint, rightfully so. They barely care about veteran PvP so why would they ever care about the baby campaign? Unless pvp suddenly becomes a viable money maker they will never dedicate more resources to fixing any of its ailments because why throw money down the drain when you could continue pumping out DLC and Crownstore items?

Hopefully I'm wrong and the day they give even a single [snip] about PvP is sooner than I think, but until that day its frankly a problem the community will have to deal with on its own. My advice, let nature takes its course. Over the years the bad trends have come and gone. The true BwB was dead to me the second they renamed it Kyne anyhow.

Datthaw

Kyne is killing pvp because of the salt. New players come in and see the bickering and tagging by reroll players like a bunch of savages. Turns alot of people off

W0lf_z13

- waves - hello all ...been a bit since i popped in here .... I ended up creating a new char yesterday and got to lvl 10 and jumped into Kyne for a bit .... nice to see some of you again .....( my gear and weapons were only blue quality ).... played in kyne for maybe an hour/hour and a half while i jumped back and fourth between cleaning .... then went back to my main char .... really hate waiting for vigor ( better than it used to be at least though )

DeadlyRecluse

kit_sune wrote: »

People are stupid if they are going for asylum weapons with how the gear scaling works.

While I agree with most of the rest of the stuff you posted (and would never personally farm Asylum nonsense for nonvet, even if I were still playing in there), some of the asylum weapons would be really crazy with how gear scaling works.

The destro staff, for example, applies %-based status effects. Those don't lose potency as you outlevel the gear, as the status effect is a set value rather than a scaled one. Same with the bow, to some extent. I'd guess (but don't know for sure) that the 2H ult return is a static amount, too, so if you are backbarring it mainly for buffs+execute, it would hold up to gear scaling remarkably well.

vamp_emily

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

- waves - hello all ...been a bit since i popped in here .... I ended up creating a new char yesterday and got to lvl 10 and jumped into Kyne for a bit .... nice to see some of you again .....( my gear and weapons were only blue quality ).... played in kyne for maybe an hour/hour and a half while i jumped back and fourth between cleaning .... then went back to my main char .... really hate waiting for vigor ( better than it used to be at least though )

I created a new character as well ... Emily Gankster

gabriebe

lol what's killing PvP lately in Kyne is that AD has an overpopulation problem. Simply put, they have every day between 3-6 guilds active while DC and EP each have one and more or less share another. One AD guild alone has 475 people, which is at least 400 people more than the next active guild I know in DC.

I guess they have to overcompensate for the fact that half of them are on bow builds somehow.

Gederic

So that’s where all the AD are. They certainly aren’t in Vivec.

Adenoma

@MajBludd and I agree on a lot of things it turns out. IMO, you should be able to wear any jewelry, but the campaign should otherwise be crafted sets. All armor and weapons scaled to gold.

The thing that's killing stuff isn't solo players, it's groups farming pugs. It's a big reason why I pretty much only play solo or at most I've been in a group of three where we were basically just trolling folks (we all plan to keep the toons for vet so we all got meteor) from our guild. Getting a guildy with three meteors is a swell feeling.

MajBludd

Been in vivec on a lowbie most of the day. What a zergfest, lol. Reminds me of how bwb use to be. Except the perma frost/desto ultimate zerg combo. All in all, not bad. Seems DC gets tagged teamed a lot in there.

Valen_Byte

Gederic wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Zos just needs to give a *** about lowbie pvp in general.

Do they? If you can give them the answers on how to make PvP in this game profitable for them maybe they'll grace you with the resolutions you seek.

We are talking about a company that took MONTHS to remove extra campaigns added for Midyear Mayhem. That's how little they actually care about the state PvP in this game, and from a business standpoint, rightfully so. They barely care about veteran PvP so why would they ever care about the baby campaign? Unless pvp suddenly becomes a viable money maker they will never dedicate more resources to fixing any of its ailments because why throw money down the drain when you could continue pumping out DLC and Crownstore items?

Hopefully I'm wrong and the day they give even a single [snip] about PvP is sooner than I think, but until that day its frankly a problem the community will have to deal with on its own. My advice, let nature takes its course. Over the years the bad trends have come and gone. The true BwB was dead to me the second they renamed it Kyne anyhow.

Yes. They do.

Lumsdenml

W0lf_z13 wrote: »

- waves - hello all ...been a bit since i popped in here .... I ended up creating a new char yesterday and got to lvl 10 and jumped into Kyne for a bit .... nice to see some of you again .....( my gear and weapons were only blue quality ).... played in kyne for maybe an hour/hour and a half while i jumped back and fourth between cleaning .... then went back to my main char .... really hate waiting for vigor ( better than it used to be at least though )

Hey wolf!

vamp_emily

MajBludd wrote: »

Been in vivec on a lowbie most of the day. What a zergfest, lol. Reminds me of how bwb use to be. Except the perma frost/desto ultimate zerg combo. All in all, not bad. Seems DC gets tagged teamed a lot in there.

That is exactly how I feel. Vivec reminds me of how Blackwaters used to be. I spent the last few weeks mostly in Vivec.

I think Vivec is the most exciting campaign that is filled with action. However, towards the end of the night I tend to go to Kyne when all sides are at least 2 bars. It is more relaxed there.

MajBludd

Yeah, I've had more fun than I thought it would be. Saw some ppl I haven't seen in a long while.

Now, I just need to get this lvl 24 to vet out so I can gear up properly for it.
I have yet to experience any horrible lag in vivec., yet.....

Stridig

vamp_emily wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

Been in vivec on a lowbie most of the day. What a zergfest, lol. Reminds me of how bwb use to be. Except the perma frost/desto ultimate zerg combo. All in all, not bad. Seems DC gets tagged teamed a lot in there.

That is exactly how I feel. Vivec reminds me of how Blackwaters used to be. I spent the last few weeks mostly in Vivec.

I think Vivec is the most exciting campaign that is filled with action. However, towards the end of the night I tend to go to Kyne when all sides are at least 2 bars. It is more relaxed there.

I will be in Alachua a few months from now on a business trip. In case you want to argue in person.

vamp_emily

Stridig wrote: »

I will be in Alachua a few months from now on a business trip. In case you want to argue in person.

Honestly, you should meet your friend @Itsnotarealwar.

You can both play a board game, then smack each other when you rage on someones post.

Stridig

Lol. I already know him. Who do you think told him to use @Itsnotarealwar as a forum name? I told him he would fit right in if he did. He's still mad at me for that one.

Itsnotarealwar

Stridig wrote: »

Lol. I already know him. Who do you think told him to use @Itsnotarealwar as a forum name? I told him he would fit right in if he did. He's still mad at me for that one.

I honesty don't want to be associated with you. Everybody hates you because you are honest. Er... mean. You are mean. And you suck at this game.

kringled_1

Yes there are players who are far better than anyone else, but I agree with @Adenoma that the impact of solo/small groups is minimal. (and I hope that when you said crafted sets, you included overland zone dropped sets, because for truly new players without a guild, any set gear they use will be zone drops, not crafted).
I'm not sure a 'pure new players' campaign would be viable (as was said by multiple others in the other thread).
As it is, I think Kyne works ok. I came in in December, no experience in PvP, on a class I didn't have much experience with. I still do ok even with significantly underleveled gear, nothing improved beyond blue, learning as I go, and similarly on a second character (also a class that was new to me). I'm by no means good at PvP but I've had fun and found a good guild.

I think the biggest thing to do for new players is to try to figure out how to get them into an effective group or guild. In that particular area, vet players who are new to PvP are actually some of the easier pickups - they already know base aspects of the game and have resources (to buy/craft things), and are invested in the game itself, so are less likely to just disappear after a week and never return, which is frustrating if you put time into teaching someone things.

gabriebe wrote: »

lol what's killing PvP lately in Kyne is that AD has an overpopulation problem. Simply put, they have every day between 3-6 guilds active while DC and EP each have one and more or less share another. One AD guild alone has 475 people, which is at least 400 people more than the next active guild I know in DC.

I guess they have to overcompensate for the fact that half of them are on bow builds somehow.

This is the biggest issue I see as well.
I'm sort of both amazed at how effective the AD guilds are in recruiting, while both appalled (and relieved) at how little they do to get their players ready/coordinated/effective. Putting 40 bodies outside a keep when 35 of them are willing to run circles in oil only works when the keep has almost no defense, and I can't imagine that it makes for a long term interest in PvP.

DeadlyRecluse

kringled_1 wrote: »

Yes there are players who are far better than anyone else, but I agree with @Adenoma that the impact of solo/small groups is minimal.

I actually disagree with you and Adenoma on this. Strongly.

A new player, perhaps grouped with other new players, being 1vXed effortlessly by an experienced player is more likely to be discouraged than inspired. A solo or duo of experienced players aren't going to drastically effect the map, but it might be even more toxic for the new player experience.

At least when they die to guild group of 6-8 or the semi-conscious zergs that role around in there, you can kind of figure out what happened without any additional info. "Oh look, my death recap is all ults, huh." "Well, they brought 24 people to roughly the same place, we only brought 16."

Those things make sense. Chasing someone around terrain while they build up their endgame ult and slowly whittle down your group FEELS unfair at any level, and actually IS unfair in kyne. And it's literally no challenge, just an ego trip.

I still remember one of my "best" 1vXs in kyne. It was on a version of that health regen build I referenced earlier, with 5k health regen and around 4k spell damage. I was fighting 5 people, and slowly killed them all, no line of sight, no adds. It felt pretty good at the time! I got hate whispered, reported, etc.--that means you are doing it right, right?

...but here's the thing. It's a tricky build that no new player is going to think of or understand--so are they really wrong to rage? Did they get better at the game because they don't understand mechanics as well as someone who's played since beta? Are they wrong to assume someone who basically could ignore all of their damage--they weren't going to outdamage my regen+high mit values in dropped random green gear--while killing them was hacking?

So I mean, I used to do it to. And I'm still friends/guildies with lots of folks who continue to do it, but I can't justify it anymore. In fact, I find it incredibly frustrating when people I consider good players continue to derp around in Kyne for a significant portion of their playtime. The only thing more laughable, imo, is people who continually reroll in kyne and manage to still be absolutely terrible while also completely myopic.

I'd like to reiterate that it was not always this way. Back when all 3 factions regularly had semi-organized guilds running a variety of sizes of groups (and most factions had solid zone wranglers who could explain things to zone/new players), playing solo/duo or leading relatively tuned small groups felt pretty good--I knew that any time we messed around on either side of the map, we were going to quickly run into guilds or guild-supported zone groups, so there was a decent challenge and I knew that like Rak would probably explain what to do to fight us, and what to do differently if we walked away with a W. That would be a learning experience for both sides--and we would be picking up genuinely new players from zone on a regular basis and showing them the ropes--sometimes they stayed with us into vet PvP, sometimes they ran with us for a few nights and then joined other guilds.

Itsnotarealwar

Most people in this thread have no idea what it's like to be a new player. @DeadlyRecluse is pretty spot on with the above comments. As a new player ( my /played is well under 100 hours ) the thing that turns me off the most is the groups of 2 and 3 people that kill whole groups. Seriously... get a life. There are some helpful people who do their best to explain certain situations but let's be honest, as a new player, if I have to learn advanced tactics to beat pro players in Kyne, there is no point in me being in Kyne. May as well move to a vet campaign.
There is also the issue of pro Kyne players who like to tbag new players and send stupid git gud whispers. No fooling man. Thats why I'm in Kyne. For exactly that reason. Thats a huge turn off as a new player because it goes to show you the type of community we have here. It may not be everybody doing it but if they don't speak out against it they are guilty all the same. Kyne is not inviting to new players at all. I'm very fortunate to have watched a friend play for a long time before I started playing. I began with a good understanding of the game. I'm also fortunate that he crafts my gear for me. Without those two things going for me, Kyne would really be no different for a new player than any of the vet campaigns.
I think it's pretty unfair for all you long time players to discuss what Kyne is like for a new player. You have no idea. Signed.... The new player who knows what it's like to be new.

gabriebe

I'd add to all that that after all this time, the experienced players all know each other and know who they can beat, and who they cannot beat. And pretty often, you'll just see them on the sidelines not helping the people in their own faction who are getting beat up because they want to see 'dem mad 1vX skillz bro'.

I find it a little silly, and the clique-y nature of the campaign is annoying me more and more.

Sreja_Bone

I still blame the guild of the Yellow Summer (and fall). Made pvp completely unenjoyable, in my opinion, and I've not returned in any significant way since. I was one of those new, unguilded folks running with a couple of friends. Had a blast right up until the Imperium decided they were gonna run the table all day, every day. Only real accomplishment there was upping the toxicity to unbearable levels. BwB had a really great community right until then, experienced players, guilds, and all.
Now....not so much.

vamp_emily

Sreja_Bone wrote: »

I still blame the guild of the Yellow Summer (and fall). Made pvp completely unenjoyable, in my opinion, and I've not returned in any significant way since. I was one of those new, unguilded folks running with a couple of friends. Had a blast right up until the Imperium decided they were gonna run the table all day, every day. Only real accomplishment there was upping the toxicity to unbearable levels. BwB had a really great community right until then, experienced players, guilds, and all.
Now....not so much.

Ya that guild hurt me and many others. I cried and quit playing PvP for 3 months. That is why I think population balance is the key to having a great campaign. I think another thing that people fail to understand is that many people don't stay in Kyne . There is going to be less new players joining Kyne as time goes by.

vamp_emily

One of my new years resolutions was to not Tbag anyone. I was out of control, I would tbag everyone I killed. It became my finishing move.

The good news is I have not tbagged anyone for 20 days. There was a few times I almost did it but I feel good I didn't.

Adenoma

You've tbagged me since the new year. I didn't PvP from around December 23rd to January 3rd and I have 100% been bagged by you on multiple occasions. It doesn't matter to me if you do or don't tbag people, but I'm 110% you have done that to me.