Red Mountain new stam dps meta?

LEGENDARYYY

Calcs for RMs damage in situations where u only got some dots applied for 10 seconds (i.e when avoiding boss mechanics)

Hit per second in penikus rm test:
Endless hail: 1.6
Poison injection: 0.5
Rending slashes: 0.4

+ lets say u spam light attacks a light attack every 2 secs, a total of 5 times.

ur looking at 16+5+4+5= 30 hits within 10 seconds

10% of 30 hits = 3. But 2 sec cd. So an average of 1.5 procs in those situations, maybe more maybe less, cus this is where the RNG gods decide.

Looking at dmg in penikus screenshot:

Within 10 seconds Hail did 3710x16 = 59360 dmg
Within 10 seconds Poison Injection did (21800x4 + 9000x1) = 96200 dmg
Within 10 seconds Rendering did 7800x4 = 31200 dmg
Within 10 seconds RM did 11500x1.5 = 17250 dmg
Within 10 seconds Light Attacks did 5x6850 = 34250

Total dmg done = 238 260

RM proc = 7% of the dmg add the 3% again from set. The set gave 10% of the dmg (in purple sturdy) add 2-3% again thats 12-13% of the dmg.

Semi conclusion:

In this scenario, if the RNG gods are not RNG gods at all ur looking at 2-3% more dmg than tbs like normal.

Now, lets look at what worst case scenario is, and what you can theoretically maximum achieve from RM within 10 seconds and dots applied:

WORST CASE: If you didnt proc at all within those 10 seconds, that would give u a 7% dmg loss with RM in comparison to TBS.

But, what if you were semi lucky and got double the proc, say 3 procs in?

Within 10 seconds Hail did 3710x16 = 59360 dmg
Within 10 seconds Poison Injection did (21800x4 + 9000x1) = 96200 dmg
Within 10 seconds Rendering did 7800x4 = 31200 dmg
Within 10 seconds RM did 11500x3 = 34500 dmg
Within 10 seconds Light Attacks did 5x6850 = 34250

Total dmg done = 255 510

RM proc = 13.5% of the total dmg done, add 3% again from set. 2-3% extra cus I base calcs on sturdy purple. 18.5%-19.5% dmg from RM.

Theoretically max dmg from RM is 6 procs within 10 seconds (cus it can proc on first shot)

Within 10 seconds Hail did 3710x16 = 59360 dmg
Within 10 seconds Poison Injection did (21800x4 + 9000x1) = 96200 dmg
Within 10 seconds Rendering did 7800x4 = 31200 dmg
Within 10 seconds RM did 11500x3 = 69000 dmg
Within 10 seconds Light Attacks did 5x6850 = 34250

Total dmg = 290 010

Rm proc = 23.7% of the dmg, add 3% from set again. And 2-3% if legendary gear. Thats 28.7%-29.7% from RM set.

Conclusion: Wearing RM instead of TBS, you can lose 7% dmg in worst case scenario, you average 2-3% more dmg, and you can theoretically get 19.7% more dmg than TBS within 10 seconds in this exact situation.

Again, more gain than loss wearing RM over TBS.

Edit: Fixed a few tiny errors that gave tbs a 3% dmg advantage. Looks pretty accurate now.

LEGENDARYYY

blur wrote: »

@LEGENDARYYY

Informed players who actually raid end game content have shown up in this thread and provided information you have ignored and swept under the rug.

You don't have any evidence or test results of your own. You are merely providing anecdote off someone else's video who he himself provided very little evidence. No stats shown, no war horn, no twice born, no vet trial bosses, no group buffs.

You are not even playing the game.
You are not running any dps tests with both gear setups, buffs, etc comparing a line by line parse.
You are doing napkin math predicated on hypothesis.
This is not testing.

You have demonstrated yourself incapable of intelligent discussion regarding this topic and seem to be only in this conversation now for the sake of your pride.
You have nothing at all to offer this argument and should just be silent and let it go.

I don't need to compare my *** with anyone, but I can say as much that I have achieved more than any of these guys in other games by absolute certainty . Nice bait though.

I've *** on countless metas, and if I'm right here I'll add this to my collection.

Edit: okay lovely profanity filter made my post look waaay more angry than it really was it also sent the wrong message. What I really meant to say here is that I do not care if you think I'm a clueless newb. I do care about comparing calcs though!

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

blur

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

blur wrote: »

@LEGENDARYYY

Informed players who actually raid end game content have shown up in this thread and provided information you have ignored and swept under the rug.

You don't have any evidence or test results of your own. You are merely providing anecdote off someone else's video who he himself provided very little evidence. No stats shown, no war horn, no twice born, no vet trial bosses, no group buffs.

You are not even playing the game.
You are not running any dps tests with both gear setups, buffs, etc comparing a line by line parse.
You are doing napkin math predicated on hypothesis.
This is not testing.

You have demonstrated yourself incapable of intelligent discussion regarding this topic and seem to be only in this conversation now for the sake of your pride.
You have nothing at all to offer this argument and should just be silent and let it go.

I don't need to compare my *** with anyone, but I can say as much that I have achieved more than any of these guys in other games by absolute certainty . Nice bait though.

I've *** on countless metas, and if I'm right here I'll add this to my collection.

You made a thread on the forum with a claim.
When asked for proof of said claim you now tell me you "don't need to compare your *** with anyone"? Why are you still providing walls of napkin math drivel? I am confused.

Again, where are your screenshots, your parses? Where are your videos? Where are your line by line comparisons? Do you have any at all? What raid/boss did you test all this on? Scribbling furiously on a piece of paper with made up scenarios does not count for real testing, you need to play the actual game.

The truth be told you have not logged into the game and tested these setups side by side in a Vet Trial. All you are doing is hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as a test. This is not how testing works. You need to actually log into the game, join a proper raid, equip one of the gear templates, run a parse. Then you need to run a second one with the other template. You are not proving anything other than how detached from reality you are.

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

Calcs for RMs damage in situations where u only got some dots applied for 10 seconds (i.e when avoiding boss mechanics)

Hit per second in penikus rm test:
Endless hail: 1.6
Poison injection: 0.5
Rending slashes: 0.4

+ lets say u spam light attacks a light attack every 2 secs, a total of 5 times.

ur looking at 16+5+4+5= 30 hits within 10 seconds

10% of 30 hits = 3. But 2 sec cd. So an average of 1.5 procs in those situations, maybe more maybe less, cus this is where the RNG gods decide.

Looking at dmg in penikus screenshot:

Within 10 seconds Hail did 3710x16 = 59360 dmg
Within 10 seconds Poison Injection did (21800x4 + 9000x1) = 96200 dmg
Within 10 seconds Rendering did 7800x4 = 31200 dmg
Within 10 seconds RM did 11500x1.5 = 17250 dmg
Within 10 seconds Light Attacks did 5x6850 = 34250

Total dmg done = 238 260

RM proc = 7% of the dmg add the 3% again from set. The set gave 10% of the dmg (in purple sturdy) add 2-3% again thats 12-13% of the dmg.

Semi conclusion:

In this scenario, if the RNG gods are not RNG gods at all ur looking at 2-3% more dmg than tbs like normal.

Now, lets look at what worst case scenario is, and what you can theoretically maximum achieve from RM within 10 seconds and dots applied:

WORST CASE: If you didnt proc at all within those 10 seconds, that would give u a 10% dmg loss with RM in comparison to TBS.

But, what if you were semi lucky and got double the proc, say 3 procs in?

Within 10 seconds Hail did 3710x16 = 59360 dmg
Within 10 seconds Poison Injection did (21800x4 + 9000x1) = 96200 dmg
Within 10 seconds Rendering did 7800x4 = 31200 dmg
Within 10 seconds RM did 11500x3 = 34500 dmg
Within 10 seconds Light Attacks did 5x6850 = 34250

Total dmg done = 255 510

RM proc = 13.5% of the total dmg done, add 3% again from set. 16.5% dmg from RM.

Theoretically max dmg from RM is 6 procs within 10 seconds (cus it can proc on first shot)

Within 10 seconds Hail did 3710x16 = 59360 dmg
Within 10 seconds Poison Injection did (21800x4 + 9000x1) = 96200 dmg
Within 10 seconds Rendering did 7800x4 = 31200 dmg
Within 10 seconds RM did 11500x3 = 69000 dmg
Within 10 seconds Light Attacks did 5x6850 = 34250

Total dmg = 290 010

Rm proc = 23.7% of the dmg, add 3% from set again. 26.7% from RM set.

Conclusion: Wearing RM instead of TBS, you can lose 10% dmg in worst case scenario, you average 2-3% more dmg, and you can theoretically get 16.7% more dmg than TBS within 10 seconds in this exact situation.

Again, more gain than loss wearing RM over TBS.

I rest my case, you are clearly convinced that you've found the holy grail. I will not spend another 15 minutes going through your deduction to show you the fallacy of your mathematical analysis, since you will just ignore it. My previous comment clearly shows why RM does not and will not ever beat TBS in a raid environment. However I personally will just utilize you creating hype over this set in order to profit from it:)

LEGENDARYYY

blur wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

blur wrote: »

@LEGENDARYYY

Informed players who actually raid end game content have shown up in this thread and provided information you have ignored and swept under the rug.

You don't have any evidence or test results of your own. You are merely providing anecdote off someone else's video who he himself provided very little evidence. No stats shown, no war horn, no twice born, no vet trial bosses, no group buffs.

You are not even playing the game.
You are not running any dps tests with both gear setups, buffs, etc comparing a line by line parse.
You are doing napkin math predicated on hypothesis.
This is not testing.

You have demonstrated yourself incapable of intelligent discussion regarding this topic and seem to be only in this conversation now for the sake of your pride.
You have nothing at all to offer this argument and should just be silent and let it go.

I don't need to compare my *** with anyone, but I can say as much that I have achieved more than any of these guys in other games by absolute certainty . Nice bait though.

I've *** on countless metas, and if I'm right here I'll add this to my collection.

You made a thread on the forum with a claim.
When asked for proof of said claim you now tell me you "don't need to compare your *** with anyone"? Why are you still providing walls of napkin math drivel? I am confused.

Again, where are your screenshots, your parses? Where are your videos? Where are your line by line comparisons? Do you have any at all? What raid/boss did you test all this on? Scribbling furiously on a piece of paper with made up scenarios does not count for real testing, you need to play the actual game.

The truth be told you have not logged into the game and tested these setups side by side in a Vet Trial. All you are doing is hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as a test. This is not how testing works. You need to actually log into the game, join a proper raid, equip one of the gear templates, run a parse. Then you need to run a second one with the other template. You are not proving anything other than how detached from reality you are.

What do you know of what I've done? I've tested this set from the ground up almost everything except vet trials.

so, for the average player I conclude this set is better. When it comes to trials, it has to be ran time and time again with these sets measured against eachother to be certain what is the better set. That will take time.

kadar

Destruent wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs.

Why does RM have a 3% DPS increase from it's first 4? Running TBS grants the Thief Mundus in addition to Shadow. Someone running RM over TBS would not have the Thief Mundus, right?

I said first four set bonuses. Rm has wep dmg, stam and crit. Tbs has mag stam hp. The difference in dps from those is ~3%

Well right, but you're not discussing the merits of running two 4 piece sets. You're talking 5 TBS vs. 5 RM. And with 5 TBS you have the extra.... ~16.5% Weapon Crit from the Thief Mundus.

You are running thief usually. You will run shadow as second mundus. TBS will therefore give you ~1k Stam + 18.3% critdmg.

That's what I said!

I mean, It's not relevant to say that the 4 pc of RM gives 3% more damage than TBS because we're comparing entire sets here. The TBS and RM set wearers will both use Shadow stone. Both sets give max Stam. If legendary divines grants "18.3%" from also having Thief, then TBS gains about 13.3% crit ( "18.3 - ~5% from RM 4 bonus) over RM from a stat total perspective.

Red Mountain has 126 Wpn dmg + Fire Dmg Proc |vs| TBS with ~13.3% wpn crit + Health/Magicka bonus.

I'm not sure the maths done earlier where you added 3% dmg done to the comparisons make sense.

EDIT: looks like full gold divines will give you 16.7% crit from Thief, but I'm not in game so can't check for sure.

No....with red mountain you will use the thief, not the shadow.

Ah, I see. Let me correct my earlier comment then:

It's not relevant to say that the 4 pc of RM gives 3% more damage than TBS because we're comparing entire sets here. The TBS and RM set wearers will both use Thief stone. Both sets give max Stam. Legendary divines grants 18.3% Crit dmg from also having Shadow mundus.

Red Mountain has 126 Wpn dmg + ~5% Crit + Fire Dmg Proc |vs| TBS with ~18.3% Crit Dmg + Health/Magicka bonus. Assuming both wearers are running Thief with TBS additionally wearing Shadow.

I'm not sure the maths done earlier where you added 3% dmg done to the comparisons make sense.

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

hedna123b14_ESO

The_Outsider wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs.

Why does RM have a 3% DPS increase from it's first 4? Running TBS grants the Thief Mundus in addition to Shadow. Someone running RM over TBS would not have the Thief Mundus, right?

I said first four set bonuses. Rm has wep dmg, stam and crit. Tbs has mag stam hp. The difference in dps from those is ~3%

Well right, but you're not discussing the merits of running two 4 piece sets. You're talking 5 TBS vs. 5 RM. And with 5 TBS you have the extra.... ~16.5% Weapon Crit from the Thief Mundus.

You are running thief usually. You will run shadow as second mundus. TBS will therefore give you ~1k Stam + 18.3% critdmg.

That's what I said!

I mean, It's not relevant to say that the 4 pc of RM gives 3% more damage than TBS because we're comparing entire sets here. The TBS and RM set wearers will both use Shadow stone. Both sets give max Stam. If legendary divines grants "18.3%" from also having Thief, then TBS gains about 13.3% crit ( "18.3 - ~5% from RM 4 bonus) over RM from a stat total perspective.

Red Mountain has 126 Wpn dmg + Fire Dmg Proc |vs| TBS with ~13.3% wpn crit + Health/Magicka bonus.

I'm not sure the maths done earlier where you added 3% dmg done to the comparisons make sense.

EDIT: looks like full gold divines will give you 16.7% crit from Thief, but I'm not in game so can't check for sure.

No....with red mountain you will use the thief, not the shadow.

Ah, I see. Let me correct my earlier comment then:

It's not relevant to say that the 4 pc of RM gives 3% more damage than TBS because we're comparing entire sets here. The TBS and RM set wearers will both use Thief stone. Both sets give max Stam. Legendary divines grants 18.3% Crit dmg from also having Shadow mundus.

Red Mountain has 126 Wpn dmg + ~5% Crit + Fire Dmg Proc |vs| TBS with ~18.3% Crit Dmg + Health/Magicka bonus. Assuming both wearers are running Thief with TBS additionally wearing Shadow.

I'm not sure the maths done earlier where you added 3% dmg done to the comparisons make sense.

Actually 1 piece crit bonus is 3.14% not 5%

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

the 4 piece RM gives u 3% more dmg than the 4 piece TBS because of extra crit and weapon dmg.

kadar

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

I think he's mistakenly adding a 3% damage bonus to RM because of it's 2, 3, and 4 pc bonuses. We are not comparing 4 peices of a set. We're comparing 5.

zerosingularity

For all the people both thinking TBS is better, and for all those thinking RM is better, enough is enough. Cases have been made for both.

No one need provide any more math. It has been shown that RM is a strong set in it's own right, with a few things that need improvement (using armor pen as a stam set instead of spell pen).

There are only two things I can think off that need to be done:

• Run two identical builds but one using Divines TBS and the other using Divines RM and compare dps vs a trial boss with ~70+% Warhorn uptime, SPC, etc....
• Do the same but with default TBS and compare 5pc RM to 5pc VO (obviously VO is better, but RM is BoE, so by how much?)

After this, post results. The time for theory is over, the time for experimentation has begun!

LEGENDARYYY

The_Outsider wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

I think he's mistakenly adding a 3% damage bonus to RM because of it's 2, 3, and 4 pc bonuses. We are not comparing 4 peices of a set. We're comparing 5.

Peniku did calculate it to being a 3% damage difference on the 4 first set bonuses.

When you are calculating the total dmg done from RM u need to calculate proc + the 3% extra from the set.

Peniku also calculated purple sturdy to be 2.5% weaker in dps than legendary divines.

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

the 4 piece RM gives u 3% more dmg than the 4 piece TBS because of extra crit and weapon dmg.

The weapon damage is reflected in the parses, the only thing that was not included is the crit chance. I can tell you that 1 crit chance bonus is not 3% dps increase...not even close...

hedna123b14_ESO

zerosingularity wrote: »

For all the people both thinking TBS is better, and for all those thinking RM is better, enough is enough. Cases have been made for both.

No one need provide any more math. It has been shown that RM is a strong set in it's own right, with a few things that need improvement (using armor pen as a stam set instead of spell pen).

There are only two things I can think off that need to be done:

• Run two identical builds but one using Divines TBS and the other using Divines RM and compare dps vs a trial boss with ~70+% Warhorn uptime, SPC, etc....
• Do the same but with default TBS and compare 5pc RM to 5pc VO (obviously VO is better, but RM is BoE, so by how much?)

After this, post results. The time for theory is over, the time for experimentation has begun!

That's on the OP to do...all the endgame raiders already know what results he will get...

kadar

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

I think he's mistakenly adding a 3% damage bonus to RM because of it's 2, 3, and 4 pc bonuses. We are not comparing 4 peices of a set. We're comparing 5.

Peniku did calculate it to being a 3% damage difference on the 4 first set bonuses.

When you are calculating the total dmg done from RM u need to calculate proc + the 3% extra from the set.

No you don't. Because in both cases, the hypothetical testers are wearing 5 pieces of RM vs. 5 pieces of TBS. The benefit of having a second Mundus stone (Shadow) more than compensates for the crit and wpn damage from RM as I stated in my other commment.

It's not relevant to say that the 4 pc of RM gives 3% more damage than TBS because we're comparing entire sets here. The TBS and RM set wearers will both use Thief stone. Both sets give max Stam. Legendary divines grants 18.3% Crit dmg from also having Shadow mundus.

Red Mountain has 126 Wpn dmg + ~3% Crit + Fire Dmg Proc |vs| TBS with ~18.3% Crit Dmg + Health/Magicka bonus. Assuming both wearers are running Thief with TBS additionally wearing Shadow.

I'm not sure the maths done earlier where you added 3% dmg done to the comparisons make sense.

iam117

i. love. lamp.

TLDR? tbs>rm

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

the 4 piece RM gives u 3% more dmg than the 4 piece TBS because of extra crit and weapon dmg.

The weapon damage is reflected in the parses, the only thing that was not included is the crit chance. I can tell you that 1 crit chance bonus is not 3% dps increase...not even close...

Yes ofc it is reflected in parses.

But think for a second.

TBS has 10% dmg output, I always calculate with the total dmg done in a fight for tbs to be that amount.

If I only calculated total dmg done from proc on RM that would be wrong, cus the set gave 3% dmg to the other stuff in the parse aswell. That means to compare RM and TBS total dmg in a parse you need to consider the 3% extra dmg from RM passives.

LEGENDARYYY

The_Outsider wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

I think he's mistakenly adding a 3% damage bonus to RM because of it's 2, 3, and 4 pc bonuses. We are not comparing 4 peices of a set. We're comparing 5.

Peniku did calculate it to being a 3% damage difference on the 4 first set bonuses.

When you are calculating the total dmg done from RM u need to calculate proc + the 3% extra from the set.

No you don't. Because in both cases, the hypothetical testers are wearing 5 pieces of RM vs. 5 pieces of TBS. The benefit of having a second Mundus stone (Shadow) more than compensates for the crit and wpn damage from RM as I stated in my other commment.

It's not relevant to say that the 4 pc of RM gives 3% more damage than TBS because we're comparing entire sets here. The TBS and RM set wearers will both use Thief stone. Both sets give max Stam. Legendary divines grants 18.3% Crit dmg from also having Shadow mundus.

Red Mountain has 126 Wpn dmg + ~3% Crit + Fire Dmg Proc |vs| TBS with ~18.3% Crit Dmg + Health/Magicka bonus. Assuming both wearers are running Thief with TBS additionally wearing Shadow.

I'm not sure the maths done earlier where you added 3% dmg done to the comparisons make sense.

TBS with shadow and thief is said to give ~10% to everything bro. Thats where I get those 10% from, its both shadow and thief.

blur

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

blur wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

blur wrote: »

@LEGENDARYYY

Informed players who actually raid end game content have shown up in this thread and provided information you have ignored and swept under the rug.

You don't have any evidence or test results of your own. You are merely providing anecdote off someone else's video who he himself provided very little evidence. No stats shown, no war horn, no twice born, no vet trial bosses, no group buffs.

You are not even playing the game.
You are not running any dps tests with both gear setups, buffs, etc comparing a line by line parse.
You are doing napkin math predicated on hypothesis.
This is not testing.

You have demonstrated yourself incapable of intelligent discussion regarding this topic and seem to be only in this conversation now for the sake of your pride.
You have nothing at all to offer this argument and should just be silent and let it go.

I don't need to compare my *** with anyone, but I can say as much that I have achieved more than any of these guys in other games by absolute certainty . Nice bait though.

I've *** on countless metas, and if I'm right here I'll add this to my collection.

You made a thread on the forum with a claim.
When asked for proof of said claim you now tell me you "don't need to compare your *** with anyone"? Why are you still providing walls of napkin math drivel? I am confused.

Again, where are your screenshots, your parses? Where are your videos? Where are your line by line comparisons? Do you have any at all? What raid/boss did you test all this on? Scribbling furiously on a piece of paper with made up scenarios does not count for real testing, you need to play the actual game.

The truth be told you have not logged into the game and tested these setups side by side in a Vet Trial. All you are doing is hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as a test. This is not how testing works. You need to actually log into the game, join a proper raid, equip one of the gear templates, run a parse. Then you need to run a second one with the other template. You are not proving anything other than how detached from reality you are.

What do you know of what I've done? I've tested this set from the ground up almost everything except vet trials.

so, for the average player I conclude this set is better. When it comes to trials, it has to be ran time and time again with these sets measured against eachother to be certain what is the better set. That will take time.

Title of the thread - RD is the new stam dps meta
Claim - RD outperforms TBS meta (TBS + Serp).

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

What do you know of what I've done?

Excellent question! I think everyone (who has not blown this off and left) is actually wondering what you have done, so why don't finally show us?

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

I've tested this set from the ground up almost everything except vet trials.

Oh wait, you have not tested this on anything relevant, i.e. vet Trials.
All things said, you can't say this is a new meta that outperforms something when you:

• Don't even bother to test it, particularly where it matters (vet Trials)
• Base your hypothesis on napkin math predicated off assumption
• Refuse to provide hard evidence e.g. parses, video, detailed screenshots, side by side comparisons.

For crying out loud by your own words you just admitted you didn't even test this properly. You have nothing more to say here and there is certainly nothing more to see. May as well close this thread now. I'm done here.

LEGENDARYYY

The_Outsider wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

I think he's mistakenly adding a 3% damage bonus to RM because of it's 2, 3, and 4 pc bonuses. We are not comparing 4 peices of a set. We're comparing 5.

Peniku did calculate it to being a 3% damage difference on the 4 first set bonuses.

When you are calculating the total dmg done from RM u need to calculate proc + the 3% extra from the set.

No you don't. Because in both cases, the hypothetical testers are wearing 5 pieces of RM vs. 5 pieces of TBS. The benefit of having a second Mundus stone (Shadow) more than compensates for the crit and wpn damage from RM as I stated in my other commment.

It's not relevant to say that the 4 pc of RM gives 3% more damage than TBS because we're comparing entire sets here. The TBS and RM set wearers will both use Thief stone. Both sets give max Stam. Legendary divines grants 18.3% Crit dmg from also having Shadow mundus.

Red Mountain has 126 Wpn dmg + ~3% Crit + Fire Dmg Proc |vs| TBS with ~18.3% Crit Dmg + Health/Magicka bonus. Assuming both wearers are running Thief with TBS additionally wearing Shadow.

I'm not sure the maths done earlier where you added 3% dmg done to the comparisons make sense.

TBS with shadow and thief is said to give ~10% to everything bro. Thats where I get those 10% from, its both shadow and thief.

blur wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

blur wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

blur wrote: »

@LEGENDARYYY

Informed players who actually raid end game content have shown up in this thread and provided information you have ignored and swept under the rug.

You don't have any evidence or test results of your own. You are merely providing anecdote off someone else's video who he himself provided very little evidence. No stats shown, no war horn, no twice born, no vet trial bosses, no group buffs.

You are not even playing the game.
You are not running any dps tests with both gear setups, buffs, etc comparing a line by line parse.
You are doing napkin math predicated on hypothesis.
This is not testing.

You have demonstrated yourself incapable of intelligent discussion regarding this topic and seem to be only in this conversation now for the sake of your pride.
You have nothing at all to offer this argument and should just be silent and let it go.

I don't need to compare my *** with anyone, but I can say as much that I have achieved more than any of these guys in other games by absolute certainty . Nice bait though.

I've *** on countless metas, and if I'm right here I'll add this to my collection.

You made a thread on the forum with a claim.
When asked for proof of said claim you now tell me you "don't need to compare your *** with anyone"? Why are you still providing walls of napkin math drivel? I am confused.

Again, where are your screenshots, your parses? Where are your videos? Where are your line by line comparisons? Do you have any at all? What raid/boss did you test all this on? Scribbling furiously on a piece of paper with made up scenarios does not count for real testing, you need to play the actual game.

The truth be told you have not logged into the game and tested these setups side by side in a Vet Trial. All you are doing is hypothesizing and trying to pass it off as a test. This is not how testing works. You need to actually log into the game, join a proper raid, equip one of the gear templates, run a parse. Then you need to run a second one with the other template. You are not proving anything other than how detached from reality you are.

What do you know of what I've done? I've tested this set from the ground up almost everything except vet trials.

so, for the average player I conclude this set is better. When it comes to trials, it has to be ran time and time again with these sets measured against eachother to be certain what is the better set. That will take time.

Title of the thread - RD is the new stam dps meta
Claim - RD outperforms TBS meta (TBS + Serp).

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

What do you know of what I've done?

Excellent question! I think everyone (who has not blown this off and left) is actually wondering what you have done, so why don't finally show us?

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

I've tested this set from the ground up almost everything except vet trials.

Oh wait, you have not tested this on anything relevant, i.e. vet Trials.
All things said, you can't say this is a new meta that outperforms something when you:

• Don't even bother to test it, particularly where it matters (vet Trials)
• Base your hypothesis on napkin math predicated off assumption
• Refuse to provide hard evidence e.g. parses, video, detailed screenshots, side by side comparisons.

For crying out loud by your own words you just admitted you didn't even test this properly. You have nothing more to say here and there is certainly nothing more to see. May as well close this thread now. I'm done here.

And again someone who just barge in here without reading through stuff and insult ppl. Read through the 8 pages pls.

My title has a questionmark behind it, because it originally was a question if anyone could test this. I ended up trying myself.

Flak

I have no idea why this discussion is so heated, personally I think that this set has a lot of potential (if it gets fixed) but also I've not seen a proof yet that it is far superior and for 1 or 2% increase I would always favour TBS to gain more survivability.
But to be fair the OP will not be able to show you impressive parses coz he's missing vMA Weapons and isn't even at cp-cap.

I'm returning to the game on Tuesday and will try to get my hands on divine RM so I can test it in a good trialsetup.

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

the 4 piece RM gives u 3% more dmg than the 4 piece TBS because of extra crit and weapon dmg.

The weapon damage is reflected in the parses, the only thing that was not included is the crit chance. I can tell you that 1 crit chance bonus is not 3% dps increase...not even close...

Yes ofc it is reflected in parses.

But think for a second.

TBS has 10% dmg output, I always calculate with the total dmg done in a fight for tbs to be that amount.

If I only calculated total dmg done from proc on RM that would be wrong, cus the set gave 3% dmg to the other stuff in the parse aswell. That means to compare RM and TBS total dmg in a parse you need to consider the 3% extra dmg from RM passives.

...im still confused...
1. Your friend posted screenshots
2. The TBS screenshot has skills parsing for 8.8% more damage than RM skills.
3. The damage from RM mitigated that huge damage difference to a difference of 3.3% as reflected in the total dps in those parses.
4. He indicated that this gap could be bridged by gold quality and proper traits and perhaps it can be, but as soon as you apply warhorn which does not benefit RM except for in the first 10 seconds, as soon as you apply SPC, which does not benefit RM, as soon as you apply other buffs, the gap will widen. The only buffs applicable to RM are the first 10 seconds of warhorn, minor vilnerability and Engulfing flame, whilst those same buffs plus a truck load of others buff TBS damage.

kadar

@hedna123b14_ESO , do you understand what he means? He's confusing me with all his "X%" statements...

I think he's trying to assign total damage done percentages to each set and compare them that way...

In the parse, RM proc accounts for 7.1% of his total DPS. Wouldn't it be inaccurate to add an additional 3% damage done because of the 4 piece bonuses? The 7.1% was derived from the parse, which already contained the damage of the 4 piece bonuses, right?

hedna123b14_ESO

The_Outsider wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO , do you understand what he means? He's confusing me with all his "X%" statements...

I think he's trying to assign total damage done percentages to each set and compare them that way...

In the parse, RM proc accounts for 7.1% of his total DPS. Wouldn't it be inaccurate to add an additional 3% damage done because of the 4 piece bonuses? The 7.1% was derived from the parse, which already contained the damage of the 4 piece bonuses, right?

Yes, and thats what im trying to explain to him...if you look at the two parses the difference between the damage coming from crits is over 8.8% ( i looked at each skill), the reason why the parse difference is so negligeable is because RM mitigates that giant damage loss with its proc, but notice that the TBS parse still wins due to a net loss of damage from having two mundus stones.

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

the 4 piece RM gives u 3% more dmg than the 4 piece TBS because of extra crit and weapon dmg.

The weapon damage is reflected in the parses, the only thing that was not included is the crit chance. I can tell you that 1 crit chance bonus is not 3% dps increase...not even close...

Yes ofc it is reflected in parses.

But think for a second.

TBS has 10% dmg output, I always calculate with the total dmg done in a fight for tbs to be that amount.

If I only calculated total dmg done from proc on RM that would be wrong, cus the set gave 3% dmg to the other stuff in the parse aswell. That means to compare RM and TBS total dmg in a parse you need to consider the 3% extra dmg from RM passives.

...im still confused...
1. Your friend posted screenshots
2. The TBS screenshot has skills parsing for 8.8% more damage than RM skills.
3. The damage from RM mitigated that huge damage difference to a difference of 3.3% as reflected in the total dps in those parses.
4. He indicated that this gap could be bridged by gold quality and proper traits and perhaps it can be, but as soon as you apply warhorn which does not benefit RM except for in the first 10 seconds, as soon as you apply SPC, which does not benefit RM, as soon as you apply other buffs, the gap will widen. The only buffs applicable to RM are the first 10 seconds of warhorn, minor vilnerability and Engulfing flame, whilst those same buffs plus a truck load of others buff TBS damage.

Yes, this is turning into a good discussion. Ty, now I understand what you mean.

Ill break this down.

the difference between TBS and RM is:

TBS has shadow passive which is approx ~10% extra dmg
RM has 3% extra dmg on set bonuses (wep dmg and wep crit) + the proc

Looking at any combat log where TBS is in use, you could say that TBS gave a 10% dmg increase, cus of the shadow.

Looking at any combat log where RM is in use, you could say that the set bonuses contributed 3% dmg increase + the dmg of the proc.

Right?

And you may be right regarding the buffs. But you must remember that RM has wep dmg and crit passvies, so warhorn does buff that fully.

I see your point when it comes to buffing the RM proc, it literally wont get buffed as much as TBS shadow will.

That said, is the buff to TBS shadow so remarkable that TBS gain more than a 3% dmg increase over RM in those situations? Cus RM should do 3% more average dps according to our calculations and tests in purple sturdy.

, and since TBS has less burst potential + are worse than RM in situations with low dps output, is that full buff increase high enough to make TBS the better of the sets?

Are we on the same terms now?

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO , do you understand what he means? He's confusing me with all his "X%" statements...

I think he's trying to assign total damage done percentages to each set and compare them that way...

In the parse, RM proc accounts for 7.1% of his total DPS. Wouldn't it be inaccurate to add an additional 3% damage done because of the 4 piece bonuses? The 7.1% was derived from the parse, which already contained the damage of the 4 piece bonuses, right?

Yes, and thats what im trying to explain to him...if you look at the two parses the difference between the damage coming from crits is over 8.8% ( i looked at each skill), the reason why the parse difference is so negligeable is because RM mitigates that giant damage loss with its proc, but notice that the TBS parse still wins due to a net loss of damage from having two mundus stones.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO , do you understand what he means? He's confusing me with all his "X%" statements...

I think he's trying to assign total damage done percentages to each set and compare them that way...

In the parse, RM proc accounts for 7.1% of his total DPS. Wouldn't it be inaccurate to add an additional 3% damage done because of the 4 piece bonuses? The 7.1% was derived from the parse, which already contained the damage of the 4 piece bonuses, right?

Yes, and thats what im trying to explain to him...if you look at the two parses the difference between the damage coming from crits is over 8.8% ( i looked at each skill), the reason why the parse difference is so negligeable is because RM mitigates that giant damage loss with its proc, but notice that the TBS parse still wins due to a net loss of damage from having two mundus stones.

If TBS gives all abilities 9% more dmg than RM on penikus screenshots..

RM was purple sturdy, which means that is off by 2.5% ish. if RM was legendary that difference would be only about 6.5%.

If you add 3% to that, cus RM gives 3% to all abilities you are looking at 6.5% + 3% = 9.5%

TBS has 9.5% dmg output on penikus screenshots.

If this is the case that means I have literally handed TBS a 0.5% dps favor in all my calculations.

EDIT AGAIN: Found that Tbs gave 9% more dmg average on the screenshots. I input 9% instead of the original 8.8%

hedna123b14_ESO

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

the 4 piece RM gives u 3% more dmg than the 4 piece TBS because of extra crit and weapon dmg.

The weapon damage is reflected in the parses, the only thing that was not included is the crit chance. I can tell you that 1 crit chance bonus is not 3% dps increase...not even close...

Yes ofc it is reflected in parses.

But think for a second.

TBS has 10% dmg output, I always calculate with the total dmg done in a fight for tbs to be that amount.

If I only calculated total dmg done from proc on RM that would be wrong, cus the set gave 3% dmg to the other stuff in the parse aswell. That means to compare RM and TBS total dmg in a parse you need to consider the 3% extra dmg from RM passives.

...im still confused...
1. Your friend posted screenshots
2. The TBS screenshot has skills parsing for 8.8% more damage than RM skills.
3. The damage from RM mitigated that huge damage difference to a difference of 3.3% as reflected in the total dps in those parses.
4. He indicated that this gap could be bridged by gold quality and proper traits and perhaps it can be, but as soon as you apply warhorn which does not benefit RM except for in the first 10 seconds, as soon as you apply SPC, which does not benefit RM, as soon as you apply other buffs, the gap will widen. The only buffs applicable to RM are the first 10 seconds of warhorn, minor vilnerability and Engulfing flame, whilst those same buffs plus a truck load of others buff TBS damage.

Yes, this is turning into a good discussion. Ty, now I understand what you mean.

Ill break this down.

the difference between TBS and RM is:

TBS has shadow passive which is approx ~10% extra dmg
RM has 3% extra dmg on set bonuses (wep dmg and wep crit) + the proc

Looking at any combat log where TBS is in use, you could say that TBS gave a 10% dmg increase, cus of the shadow.

Looking at any combat log where RM is in use, you could say that the set bonuses contributed 3% dmg increase + the dmg of the proc.

Right?

And you may be right regarding the buffs. But you must remember that RM has wep dmg and crit passvies, so warhorn does buff that fully.

I see your point when it comes to buffing the RM proc, it literally wont get buffed as much as TBS shadow will.

That said, is the buff to TBS shadow so remarkable that TBS gain more than a 3% dmg increase over RM in those situations? Cus RM should do 3% more average dps according to our calculations and tests in purple sturdy.

, and since TBS has less burst potential + are worse than RM in situations with low dps output, is that full buff increase high enough to make TBS the better of the sets?

Are we on the same terms now?

I use the formula for average damage as: Average Damage = 1+ (Crit Chance)(Warhorn average over 30 seconds)(Crit Damage modifier). On a Khajit DK wearing 5 VO 5 TBS + vMA you have 81.6% crit with sharpened weapons. Your crit damage modifier is around 93.3 with 33 points into precise strikes. Average Damage with those stats equals 1.833.

Replacing TBS with RM would give you Crit of 84.7 and crit damage modifier of 75. Average damage with those stats is 1.669

Thus the average damage with TBS is 9.76% higher than with RM, but the base damage of RM is higher than base damage of TBS by 129 weapon damage. 129 weapon damage is around 2.5% damage gain without vMA weapons, but somewhere around 1.5-1.8% damage gain with vMA weapons (because they add so much weapon damage to the skills they empower it diminishes the contribution of that 1 weapon damage set bonus significantly).

Thus you get TBS>RM by around 8% dps (excluding the RM proc). So if RM proc can exceed 8% DPS on a 40k parse then I guess it could be considered better, the issue with it is that it is single target and thus TBS which will affect all targets will be better guaranteed in an AoE or Mixed AoE scenario. Finally the Health bonus form TBS is paramount to completing hard combat, so many times that extra 1.5k health has saved my life I cant even begin to say how important it is.

LEGENDARYYY

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

LEGENDARYYY wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

peniku8 wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Are you forgetting that warhorn is multiplicative?

Crit Dmg = Base DMG * (1+0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn

thats what I based my calculations on

Actually the formula is Crit Dmg = Base DMG * [1+(0,5+CP+Trap+Shadow+NB passive (but I didn't use that cus I'm sorc)) * Warhorn]

Because warhorn and shadow are multiplicative as @Nifty2g pointed out, shadow doesnt reduce warhorn as you stated in your above post. I believe what you were trying to say is that shadow's contribution to overall damage is reduced as crit damage is increased, but this has nothing to do with warhorn. This has to do with the other sources of crit damage modifiers that you possess. A sorc with no passive crit damage modifier will have a higher damage contribution from TBS than say a Nightblade, because Shadow's contribution is diminished.

As for Red mountain, even if it is proven to be 2% more effective than TBS (still not convinced), I would still not recommend using it over TBS for 2 reasons:
1. There are hardly many fights in the endgame which are truly single target (where this set would shine). That being the case as soon as there is more than a single target, this set automatically loses to TBS. If TBS could be easily swapped for this set maybe keeping both would be worth it, however as we know once you take TBS off you have to go get the mundus again, which is obviously prohibitive. On trash pulls and heavy AoE fights TBS will trump this set by miles. Given all these points it would be difficult to justify wearing CotRM.
2. TBS provides the much needed Health buff to stam users which they so badly need. No 2% single target DPS increase is worth rolling the RNG dice on survival.

You are basically saying here you would rather have ~3% more dmg against trash mobs when ur at 100k or more dps aoe and 1k more health.

And swap away 2% more single target dps, more burst, and way more dmg in harder fights where ur dmg matters most? You know the lower ur dps output the better RM proc is.

I still don't get it. Let us know about warhorn calcs though

1. I still do not agree that RM is stronger single target, because as Alcast pointed out TBS synergizes much better with Warhorn.
2. My raid group consistently clears vMoL, our non core does not. I can tell you right now that it isn't because of DPS, but because of survivability. 1.5k health trumps 2% increased damage in raids by miles, but as I said before from my testing I have not found the 2% to be true.

Ok so we know for a fact that rm is 2% better on a guard in hews. We know for a fact rm has 3% dps from its 4 first set bonuses compared to tbs. We know for a fact that such a consistent proc hits for extra dmg while u roll dodge or having a hard time or when bosses move around with dots on them. We know for a fact that the lower dps u pull the more the RM proc is of ur total dmg.

Now. We need facts about tbs+warhorn and rm+warhorn. Can u please provide that? It doesnt help that you are just stating tbs as "much" better with Warhorn.

1. I saw the screenshots. Your RM may have been 7-9% of your dps, but thats because your overall DPS was low.
2. Your friend had it up to 3.5k which is impressive, however those were all short fights. As someone pointed out above in longer fights your proc rate will go down tremendously. Your friend had slightly better results, but even in his testing without warhorn TBS trumped RM. Now he says that even though his own testing proved the opposite of what you are claiming, RM is still better because the traits and gear quality was imperfect. In that case, I can say that TBS full potential was also negated because you had no warhorn in your testing.
3. Your comment indicates that TBS is only good on trash, when in fact most bosses come with adds.

Here is my calculations for a long fight.

Calcs for RM expected proc rate and dmg in long fights using penikus rotations and weapon hits from his video.

~5 weapon attacks per second = 5000 weapon attacks within 1000 seconds.

A stable 10% chance to proc out of 5000 weapon attacks is 500 procs, but adding the 2 sec cooldown halves this. so 250 procs within 1000 seconds.

Peniku did an average of 11500 dmg with his proc with a 78.6% crit rate, which was almost about his base crit rate and the average proc dmg is pretty accurate because of that.

11500 dmg x 250/1000 = 2.875k dps from RM proc in a 1000 second fight.

Add 5% from VO in dungeons. 2875*1.05=3018

Conclusion: With penikus rotations and purple sturdy RM set he should deal about 3k dps from the proc itself in a dungeon with 50k dps single target.

3k dps out of 50k total dps is 6%

RM set bonuses is also 3%

Peniku will get 9% dmg from Red Mountain with that setup.

Improving all pieces to divines etc which is somewhere in the range of extra 2-3% dmg?

Conclusion:
In a 1000 seconds fight where Peniku use those rotations and do 50k single target dps in a dungeon he is looking at 11.5% dmg from his Red Mountain set, with an average proc dps of ~3.1k dps.

Hold on for calculations of RMs performance if ur doing low dps from dots (say when you are avoiding boss attacks etc).

Now let's look at some ofrom your numbers.
1. 5 attacks per second. So in my rotation I have:
Hail - 20 ticks in 10 seconds
Poison Injection - 6 ticks in 10 seconds
Rapid Strikes- 5 ticks per each and 3 Rapids every 10 seconds or a total of 15 ticks
Rending Slashes - 6 ticks every 10 seconds.
Weaves- 4
Total ticks per 10 seconds = 51 or 5.1 ticks per second (in a perfect world).
2. 5100 attacks per 1000 seconds or 510 procs or as you pointed out with the cooldown it is 255 procs. This translates into 255 x 11500/1000 = 2932.
3. With VO, this becomes 3080. I won't use 50k I'll use 40k since this number is a bit easier to achieve in endgame. 3080/40k = 7.7% dps.
4. If we take a look at the two screenshots that your friend posted majority of the skills were crit ting for 8.8% more with TBS (no warhorn), with a few skills hitting for 13-19% more. So at the very least TBS is already giving a bigger damage boost than RM.
5. You can say that RM has a weapon damage bonus but that buff is already included in the parses your friend posted. The only thing not directly visible is the contribution of 3% crit chance that RM offers, which does is not going to increase the set'something efficacy to the point of matching TBS (without warhorn).
6. If we add warhorn into the mix, the state gain will add a significant dps boost to damage on TBS, but will contribute absolutely nothing to RM damage, since it's a base value.
7. Now let's also keep in mind that the 5.1 attacks per second is in a perfect world where all dots are hitting the target 100% of the time. But what if we only had poison injection, claw and rending slashes? Thats only 12 ticks per 10 seconds (Claw isnt a weapon skill) or 1.2 ticks per second, or ~1450 damage from RM. 1450/40000 = 3.6%, however the gain from TBS to damage was 8.8%+. So while the RM proc chance drops, the damage from. PI, Claw and Rending stays high.
8. Even if somehow RM did equal or did slightly higher damage than TBS (2 % as you claim), as I said before the gain of 1.5k health would benefit you much more. Keep in mind 2% of 40k is only 800 dps. However TBS is superior in damage and utility as those screenshots your friend linked show.

EDIT: accounted for weaves:)

You are still not counting in the 3% dmg from set bonus nor the fact that it was purple sturdy in his tests. Meaning ur ~5% off.

I'm so lost man...what set bonus? He was wearing the set...the entire set bonus is reflected in his parse...only thing you can say was missing were traits and gear color...

the 4 piece RM gives u 3% more dmg than the 4 piece TBS because of extra crit and weapon dmg.

The weapon damage is reflected in the parses, the only thing that was not included is the crit chance. I can tell you that 1 crit chance bonus is not 3% dps increase...not even close...

Yes ofc it is reflected in parses.

But think for a second.

TBS has 10% dmg output, I always calculate with the total dmg done in a fight for tbs to be that amount.

If I only calculated total dmg done from proc on RM that would be wrong, cus the set gave 3% dmg to the other stuff in the parse aswell. That means to compare RM and TBS total dmg in a parse you need to consider the 3% extra dmg from RM passives.

...im still confused...
1. Your friend posted screenshots
2. The TBS screenshot has skills parsing for 8.8% more damage than RM skills.
3. The damage from RM mitigated that huge damage difference to a difference of 3.3% as reflected in the total dps in those parses.
4. He indicated that this gap could be bridged by gold quality and proper traits and perhaps it can be, but as soon as you apply warhorn which does not benefit RM except for in the first 10 seconds, as soon as you apply SPC, which does not benefit RM, as soon as you apply other buffs, the gap will widen. The only buffs applicable to RM are the first 10 seconds of warhorn, minor vilnerability and Engulfing flame, whilst those same buffs plus a truck load of others buff TBS damage.

Yes, this is turning into a good discussion. Ty, now I understand what you mean.

Ill break this down.

the difference between TBS and RM is:

TBS has shadow passive which is approx ~10% extra dmg
RM has 3% extra dmg on set bonuses (wep dmg and wep crit) + the proc

Looking at any combat log where TBS is in use, you could say that TBS gave a 10% dmg increase, cus of the shadow.

Looking at any combat log where RM is in use, you could say that the set bonuses contributed 3% dmg increase + the dmg of the proc.

Right?

And you may be right regarding the buffs. But you must remember that RM has wep dmg and crit passvies, so warhorn does buff that fully.

I see your point when it comes to buffing the RM proc, it literally wont get buffed as much as TBS shadow will.

That said, is the buff to TBS shadow so remarkable that TBS gain more than a 3% dmg increase over RM in those situations? Cus RM should do 3% more average dps according to our calculations and tests in purple sturdy.

, and since TBS has less burst potential + are worse than RM in situations with low dps output, is that full buff increase high enough to make TBS the better of the sets?

Are we on the same terms now?

I use the formula for average damage as: Average Damage = 1+ (Crit Chance)(Warhorn average over 30 seconds)(Crit Damage modifier). On a Khajit DK wearing 5 VO 5 TBS + vMA you have 81.6% crit with sharpened weapons. Your crit damage modifier is around 93.3 with 33 points into precise strikes. Average Damage with those stats equals 1.833.

Replacing TBS with RM would give you Crit of 84.7 and crit damage modifier of 75. Average damage with those stats is 1.669

Thus the average damage with TBS is 9.76% higher than with RM, but the base damage of RM is higher than base damage of TBS by 129 weapon damage. 129 weapon damage is around 2.5% damage gain without vMA weapons, but somewhere around 1.5-1.8% damage gain with vMA weapons (because they add so much weapon damage to the skills they empower it diminishes the contribution of that 1 weapon damage set bonus significantly).

Thus you get TBS>RM by around 8% dps (excluding the RM proc). So if RM proc can exceed 8% DPS on a 40k parse then I guess it could be considered better, the issue with it is that it is single target and thus TBS which will affect all targets will be better guaranteed in an AoE or Mixed AoE scenario. Finally the Health bonus form TBS is paramount to completing hard combat, so many times that extra 1.5k health has saved my life I cant even begin to say how important it is.

3.1k dps out of 40k dps is 7.75% dmg from the proc. So if ur calculations are corrent then TBS is the winner.

peniku8

Flak wrote: »

I have no idea why this discussion is so heated, personally I think that this set has a lot of potential (if it gets fixed) but also I've not seen a proof yet that it is far superior and for 1 or 2% increase I would always favour TBS to gain more survivability.
But to be fair the OP will not be able to show you impressive parses coz he's missing vMA Weapons and isn't even at cp-cap.

I'm returning to the game on Tuesday and will try to get my hands on divine RM so I can test it in a good trialsetup.

Yea I'm thinking the same here, wtf are those people up to, trying to defend XY for reason YZ not contributing to the discussion.
But I learned how Warhorn works, since that means I've been calculating wrong all the time which is quite depressing since I knew all calcs were correct and I was happy with being finished lol.
I dislike TBS because you're not able to swap out sets mid-dungeon... I'd love to run 2xVelindreth+5xVO for AOE but ofc you can't just get your Mundus back in a Trial. They should change TBS that you can assign a mundus to it.

Alcast wrote: »

You are testing dps on a guard. TBS vs RM

You do realize that TBS gets strong in a raid environment with Aggressive Warhorn Major Force? >.>

TBS>RM in Raids by miles.

Yea I was using the wrong formula to calculate warhorn, thats why I came up with the result that the low resistance of the guard was equal to trial buffs. That forumla was literally the only thing in my calculations, not based on my own testings

So here are fixed results for those who are interested @Alcast @Nifty2g @hedna123b14_ESO @LEGENDARYYY
RM=3% dps increase + proc, which is 3k in a healthy environment, drops to about 2k with bad luck.
TBS=9,7% dps increase (on my Stamsorc with 5% crit from CP); 13,5% dps increase with warhorn every 12s including several other buffs

so, if you deal 40k base damage,
TBS will output 45,4k and
RM will output 44,2k

That means TBS does 2,7% more dps than RM if you have 80% Major Force uptime (Warhorn every 12s).
TBS outputs slightly less without Horn, which means that RM should be better for vMSA (for pure dps at least).

Looks like TBS=Trials, RM=dungeons+MSA and maybe vDSA?
And yea, almost 3% difference is quite alot. I will still get my Red Mountain just to have some fun, maybe it'll output more dps after they fixed it and it'll be BIS, who knows

I think we can end the theorycrafting now