Still no brutality for Bow?

masterbroodub17_ESO

Why is ranged physcial damage gimped compared to the other two DPS options still? I just don't get it . Being at range is not some sort of magical protection in this game like it would be in a classic EQ-style mmo, there is literally no point in this. When you consider that melee buids have a gap closer it isn't even true in PvP so there's no excuse.
If someone wants to run a DW/DW build they are not left without a massive DPS buff, if someone wants to run a 2H/2H build the same applies. Why is Bow different, given the above?
Also, why is there no ranged execute of any kind for stamina? If you're a nightblade, Impale is a joke, as it's a magicka morph.
So you either slot a weapon that is not ranged or use a skill that needs to be used within 8M (Power Extraction) in order to gain access to Major Brutality and an execute, or you go gimp.
Does Zenimax seriously think that the DoTs from Bow skills is going to make up for those two major things missing?
I'm running a Poison build right now, but it's really annoying that bows are clearly weaker than the other two DPS weapons for (presumably) no real reason.

Julianos

because its ranged you have advantage you can nuke someone from stealth or from a high point and kill them before reach you also bow has passive if you are at max range you get extra %12 weapon damage you can have 2H on back bar and get major brutallity too i dont understand why the QQ. People 1 shot people with bow and damage stacking...

FYI: there is no any gap closer with 40-45 meters range

DKsUnite

Poison injection execute is borderline broken lol

Calboy

Get rid of major brutality all together. There is no point in forcing every single person to buff themselves with it especially forcing people to slot certain weapons to buff their other weapons. This is terrible combat design.

psychotic13

If you're a sorc or DK it's not so bad because they have class skills which do the same thing. But yeah I know what you mean I wanted to run Bow/DW on my Nightblade, but I can't as the 2h and rally is to valuable as an archer I need to buff up from range.

Stannum

Dreugh King Slayer Set? Pots? Grouping with stam DK?

masterbroodub17_ESO

Calboy wrote: »

Get rid of major brutality all together. There is no point in forcing every single person to buff themselves with it especially forcing people to slot certain weapons to buff their other weapons. This is terrible combat design.

I can definitely get behind that. It's not that there is NO source for it, but more that this sytem has pigeonholed everyone into using a build that has it, otherwise your DPS suffers.

masterbroodub17_ESO

psychotic13 wrote: »

If you're a sorc or DK it's not so bad because they have class skills which do the same thing. But yeah I know what you mean I wanted to run Bow/DW on my Nightblade, but I can't as the 2h and rally is to valuable as an archer I need to buff up from range.

Actually DW has Hidden blade which grants major brutality and can be used from 20 meters

Brrrofski

Stam Nb wants more... Haha. Good one stam Nb. Good one.

Vythri

Brrrofski wrote: »

Stam Nb wants more... Haha. Good one stam Nb. Good one.

How exactly is giving a Major Brutality buff to Bows giving Stam NB's more?

Ashamray

Calboy wrote: »

Get rid of major brutality all together. There is no point in forcing every single person to buff themselves with it especially forcing people to slot certain weapons to buff their other weapons. This is terrible combat design.

and major sorcery too.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Vythri wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Stam Nb wants more... Haha. Good one stam Nb. Good one.

How exactly is giving a Major Brutality buff to Bows giving Stam NB's more?

What this person said. This would apply to every class that wanted to build a ranged DPS that does not revolve around Magicka. It's really not some incredibly difficult thing to grasp, and really should have been an option from day one.
Edit: Thinking about it...something like Hidden Blade would have made way more sense as a bow ability.
When you look at using DW, every class has a way to get the major brutality buff, without exception. Why did it need to be a ranged attack that grants Major Brutality? Does that not make much more sense both thematically and from a balance perspective to be a bow skill?

masterbroodub17_ESO

DKsUnite wrote: »

Poison injection execute is borderline broken lol

True. After thinking some more and looking at it some more, you are right and I will withdraw my comment about a ranged execute though I offer this in return...why no ranged Ult that is single-target Damage? With the exception of Sorcerers there exists none.

Anti_Virus

Axorn wrote: »

because its ranged you have advantage you can nuke someone from stealth or from a high point and kill them before reach you also bow has passive if you are at max range you get extra %12 weapon damage you can have 2H on back bar and get major brutallity too i dont understand why the QQ. People 1 shot people with bow and damage stacking...

FYI: there is no any gap closer with 40-45 meters range

There is no "advantage" gap closers can be spammed indefinitely with no penalty.

If you get killed by snipe it's a L2P issue looks like you need more impen, or carry a dmg shield then snipe will tickle you, plus you can hear the projectile before it hits you.

The 12% dmg boost is useless you will NEVER be safely at range because of gap closers.

He stated that he doesn't want to use a melee weapon to get major brutality, I guess you missed that in the OP.

Anti_Virus

@masterbroodub17_ESO

Don't bother making these threads Zos ignores them and people don't care. Bow is like the resto staff skill line for stam builds its a support weapon and you only have two options:

support your group in PVP or One shot gank people.

One shot ganking isn't a problem to most people except for @Axorn since he doesn't use impen, but for the most part battle spirit + hardy CP+ impen/dmg shields + radiant magelight + gap closers + slow travel time = weak snipes.

Toc de Malsvi

Axorn wrote: »

because its ranged you have advantage you can nuke someone from stealth or from a high point and kill them before reach you also bow has passive if you are at max range you get extra %12 weapon damage you can have 2H on back bar and get major brutallity too i dont understand why the QQ. People 1 shot people with bow and damage stacking...

FYI: there is no any gap closer with 40-45 meters range

So much wrong with this...

Axorn wrote: »

because its ranged you have advantage you can nuke someone from stealth

This is not a ranged advantage this is any stealth burst including the entire NB class advantage, it has nothing to do with range. Ranged does not have any inherent bonus' to burst, melee weapons have 17.6% more weapon damage than ranged so a 12% increase to ranged damage does not even put the bow on equal footing with melee stealth nuking.

Axorn wrote: »

.... or from a high point and kill them before reach you ....

This only place this applies is firing off of walls which ZOS specifically gimped to keep players from using gap closer's to invade keeps. Everywhere else good luck trying to kill someone before they dodgeroll/gapclose on you.

Axorn wrote: »

....2H on back bar and get major brutallity too i dont understand why the QQ....

Being able to get use Rally is nice but that is literally all the functionality 2h offers for bow, where as the bow's dodge roll passive, Poison Injection, Arrow Barrage all are very functional and useful without having to actually use your bow offensively. The strong DOT's they provide basically act as buffs/debuffs and allow incredible power increases to dps output for players using either 2H/DW/swordnboard as a primary bar. Meaning melee gets the best buffs and back barring bow buffs you even more.

Axorn wrote: »

...People 1 shot people with bow and damage stacking...

People one shot people with 2H and DW and it does way more damage. People one shot entire groups with vicious death and bat swarm or soul tether. Being able to one shot other players isn't unique to bow's or some sort of specialty of bows.

Axorn wrote: »

...FYI: there is no any gap closer with 40-45 meters range

ONE dodge roll just ONE and every snipe casted your way misses all of them, then you simply gap close, Snipe snares the caster. Focused Aim has to hit you first to gain another 5 meters, the caster is snared while casting and the flight time is 3 seconds or so, you can hear it before it hits you, its blockable, reflectable, dodgeable. If you are dying to Focused Aim...well bless your little heart maybe PVP isn't for you?

Toc de Malsvi

DKsUnite wrote: »

Poison injection execute is borderline broken lol

As far as total damage absolutely, as far as an actual execute get real. Poison Injection in PVP might tick for 5k if you are lucky and they have really low resistances, this is nice but its not the burst that is going to kill anyone. What's worse? All other weapon builds benefit from Poison Injections absurd DOT damage without having to main bar a bow. Meaning the one psuedo execute a bow has is actually better as a buff for melee execute damage.

Toc de Malsvi

The 12% from ranged damage is an entire passive wasted on simply getting bows up to the point of still having 5.6% less weapon damage than melee. While melee weapons get a passive in that same slot that increase their damage output.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

Poison injection execute is borderline broken lol

As far as total damage absolutely, as far as an actual execute get real. Poison Injection in PVP might tick for 5k if you are lucky and they have really low resistances, this is nice but its not the burst that is going to kill anyone. What's worse? All other weapon builds benefit from Poison Injections absurd DOT damage without having to main bar a bow. Meaning the one psuedo execute a bow has is actually better as a buff for melee execute damage.

True as well. I was thinking more PvE at the time than PvP, and you're definitely right about the support.

I suppose if ZoS intends for the bow to be a support weapon then the question becomes where is our main ranged physical weapon?

Vythri

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The 12% from ranged damage is an entire passive wasted on simply getting bows up to the point of still having 5.6% less weapon damage than melee. While melee weapons get a passive in that same slot that increase their damage output.

They need to change the Long Shots passive. Call it "Master Archer" or something, and have it grant Major Brutality on targets over 15m (value can vary for balance), and targets within 15m have their movement speed debuffed by 30% (value can vary for balance) from Bow attacks for 3 seconds (this value can vary as well). Move it to the last passive in the tree so it can't be unlocked early.

Think about it like this. I currently get the 12% bonus damage from range anyway, and I use Rally to get Major Brutality, so technically I'm opening my fights with a 32% bonus weapon damage buff. That would be a nerf in the sense that I wouldn't be opening the fight with that extra 12% damage, but it would be a buff in the sense that it would free people up to have a pure Bow/Bow build and not have to run a skill like Rally.

edit: Unless I'm reading the skills wrong, because I just noticed that Long Shots says "damage bonus of 12%" and not 12% weapon damage.

Silver_Strider

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

Poison injection execute is borderline broken lol

True. After thinking some more and looking at it some more, you are right and I will withdraw my comment about a ranged execute though I offer this in return...why no ranged Ult that is single-target Damage? With the exception of Sorcerers there exists none.

Soul Assault

masterbroodub17_ESO

Silver_Strider wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

Poison injection execute is borderline broken lol

True. After thinking some more and looking at it some more, you are right and I will withdraw my comment about a ranged execute though I offer this in return...why no ranged Ult that is single-target Damage? With the exception of Sorcerers there exists none.

Soul Assault

L....O.....L

masterbroodub17_ESO

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@masterbroodub17_ESO

Don't bother making these threads Zos ignores them and people don't care. Bow is like the resto staff skill line for stam builds its a support weapon and you only have two options:

support your group in PVP or One shot gank people.

One shot ganking isn't a problem to most people except for @Axorn since he doesn't use impen, but for the most part battle spirit + hardy CP+ impen/dmg shields + radiant magelight + gap closers + slow travel time = weak snipes.

Has the Dev team EVER addressed this at all? Certainly not in the amount of time I've been playing. It seems like this is hot on a lot of other people's minds as well.

Anti_Virus

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@masterbroodub17_ESO

Don't bother making these threads Zos ignores them and people don't care. Bow is like the resto staff skill line for stam builds its a support weapon and you only have two options:

support your group in PVP or One shot gank people.

One shot ganking isn't a problem to most people except for @Axorn since he doesn't use impen, but for the most part battle spirit + hardy CP+ impen/dmg shields + radiant magelight + gap closers + slow travel time = weak snipes.

Has the Dev team EVER addressed this at all? Certainly not in the amount of time I've been playing. It seems like this is hot on a lot of other people's minds as well.

No they don't care and the community doesn't really care either all stam builds back bar bow, so as long is a functions as a great utility weapon it doesn't really matter.

people that want bow buffs are in the minority which is usually ignored.

Toc de Malsvi

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

No they don't care and the community doesn't really care either all stam builds back bar bow, so as long is a functions as a great utility weapon it doesn't really matter.

people that want bow buffs are in the minority which is usually ignored.[/quote]

This is unfortunately very true. In general most stamina back bar bow and don't want anything that might nerf the massive utility they gain from it. While there is a significant population that think that players wanting to run bow builds are RP noobs.

masterbroodub17_ESO

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@masterbroodub17_ESO

Don't bother making these threads Zos ignores them and people don't care. Bow is like the resto staff skill line for stam builds its a support weapon and you only have two options:

support your group in PVP or One shot gank people.

One shot ganking isn't a problem to most people except for @Axorn since he doesn't use impen, but for the most part battle spirit + hardy CP+ impen/dmg shields + radiant magelight + gap closers + slow travel time = weak snipes.

Has the Dev team EVER addressed this at all? Certainly not in the amount of time I've been playing. It seems like this is hot on a lot of other people's minds as well.

No they don't care and the community doesn't really care either all stam builds back bar bow, so as long is a functions as a great utility weapon it doesn't really matter.

people that want bow buffs are in the minority which is usually ignored.

That's unfortunate. The fact that no other weapon/class combination goes without its major damage buff (in a manner that makes sense) is just prejudicial for no real reason.

Put another way, a melee build with any class has access to major brutality in a way that fits that playstyle from multiple sources. Dragon knights can even give it to other people!
Hell, even ranged DPS as a sorcerer provides major brutality from multiple sources!
Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.
It's really that simple.

SanSan

Calboy wrote: »

Get rid of major brutality all together. There is no point in forcing every single person to buff themselves with it especially forcing people to slot certain weapons to buff their other weapons. This is terrible combat design.

Agreed. They made 2h so powerful with the buff+heal+50% execute+shield.
It's pretty much forces stamina users to use 2h because it is the best.

masterbroodub17_ESO

SanSan wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

Get rid of major brutality all together. There is no point in forcing every single person to buff themselves with it especially forcing people to slot certain weapons to buff their other weapons. This is terrible combat design.

Agreed. They made 2h so powerful with the buff+heal+50% execute+shield.
It's pretty much forces stamina users to use 2h because it is the best.

I think the bottom line is I will just have to give in and do it. The fact that you can reset skills in this game makes it less painful I suppose. It's absolute BS, but oh well.

Anti_Virus

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@masterbroodub17_ESO

Don't bother making these threads Zos ignores them and people don't care. Bow is like the resto staff skill line for stam builds its a support weapon and you only have two options:

support your group in PVP or One shot gank people.

One shot ganking isn't a problem to most people except for @Axorn since he doesn't use impen, but for the most part battle spirit + hardy CP+ impen/dmg shields + radiant magelight + gap closers + slow travel time = weak snipes.

Has the Dev team EVER addressed this at all? Certainly not in the amount of time I've been playing. It seems like this is hot on a lot of other people's minds as well.

No they don't care and the community doesn't really care either all stam builds back bar bow, so as long is a functions as a great utility weapon it doesn't really matter.

people that want bow buffs are in the minority which is usually ignored.

That's unfortunate. The fact that no other weapon/class combination goes without its major damage buff (in a manner that makes sense) is just prejudicial for no real reason.

Put another way, a melee build with any class has access to major brutality in a way that fits that playstyle from multiple sources. Dragon knights can even give it to other people!
Hell, even ranged DPS as a sorcerer provides major brutality from multiple sources!
Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.
It's really that simple.

Yeah, I know how you feel man I wanted to play as a ranger class too, made some many posts abouy bow problems but Zos never said a word about them and the community would come in and tell me how stupid I am for these posts so yeah...

I think Power extraction should give major brutality reguardless of hitting a target or not.

Acsvf

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.

Potions are an option, unless that 'doesn't make sense'.

Anti_Virus

Acsvf wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.

Potions are an option, unless that 'doesn't make sense'.

Potions are a liability.