Still no brutality for Bow?

Toc de Malsvi

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

I also think they make ranged weapons slightly weaker because as a tradeoff to standing back and hitting people from far away, they don't think you should be doing the equivalent amount of damage that someone who takes the risk of getting up close and personal does.

Yes, Snipe is dodgeable, but so are most ranged Magic abilities (except Radiant which really blows as a stam build). Snipe also has a one of the highest non-ultimate damage coefficients in the game (Even higher than Wrecking Blow), and hits like a truck, so it makes sense that it takes some timing and planning to increase its chances to land a hit. I'd be more than annoyed if they tweaked c-frags so that it was almost unavoidable, because if you don't avoid it, you get nuked. Its the same with Snipe.

@MrTarkanian48
I can agree with most of what you stated except for this part and its something that really is getting quite old.

First off Snipe has a 3 second flight time, there are no other ranged abilities outside of meteor that take that long to hit. However unlike Meteor the target has that whole time to simple dodge roll once and make all of the snipes that are in the air miss.

Second the damage coefficient isn't actually all its made out to be, everyone likes to point to snipes high damage coefficient but they don't like to point out that it scales with weapon damage and bows are always at a 17.6% disadvantage when it comes to weapon damage. At max range bow's get 12% more damage to try and even the gap, but that is now a passive entirely devoted to bringing bow weapon damage up to par with melee.

Thirdly the other 1 second cast abilities all knock you down, snipe does not. Snipe is interruptable, blockable, reflectable, dodgeable(3seconds to dodge), it telegraphs its incoming with both sound and animation, it only does comparable damage at max range at which point it slightly ellipses both c-frag and WB.

The idea of having weak ranged options works as far as you can sustain large groups where you can sit back and shoot at people. With open combat and gap closer's being infinitely spammable there is no advantage to range outside of group play. In other titles they have addressed this by making melee stronger with higher burst but without having infinite gap closing ability. Bow's do not need to be able to hit as hard as melee, but they need to be able to do adequate damage without spamming snipe and within moderate ranges.

I suggest they change the Long Shots passive to adjust based on range, something like 0-7m gain 5% piercing, 8-22m gain 10% damage and 3% miss chance, 22-max range 14% damage but also 10% miss chance. At the same time I suggest they push Snipe into more of an ultimate role increasing its damage and debuffs, while offering a lower damage more direct damage option that has a much shorter flight time.

masterbroodub17_ESO

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

I feel like their should be a Fighters guild ability that gives Major Brutality to be inline with Mages guild.

This is honestly the best option period. Then every class, every weapon, has access to it. It also as you mention makes sense for it to be in line with the mages guild tree.
If it's going to be a requirement to complete endgame content it has to be readily available.

Vythri

I don't think anybody here is asking for Bow to be OP or be on par with melee builds. Just competitive. Also to have passives that promote and help you achieve playing at range. If I can be gap closed infinitely, I also should be able to get away and play at range just as easily. In other words, increasing Scatter Shot and it's morphs range would be a nice start.

As for Major Brutality, I like the idea of putting it into Fighters Guild a lot more than my previous idea. The base skill of Expert Hunter should get that buff along with both of it's morphs.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Vythri wrote: »

I don't think anybody here is asking for Bow to be OP or be on par with melee builds. Just competitive. Also to have passives that promote and help you achieve playing at range. If I can be gap closed infinitely, I also should be able to get away and play at range just as easily. In other words, increasing Scatter Shot and it's morphs range would be a nice start.

As for Major Brutality, I like the idea of putting it into Fighters Guild a lot more than my previous idea. The base skill of Expert Hunter should get that buff along with both of it's morphs.

Perhaps swap the crit bonus for this. I would be ok with that.

Anti_Virus

Acsvf wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

How is it irrelevant? You stated potions are an option which they are, but must be purchased and consumed while the the 2h skill 'rally' can be used indefinitely with no cost and additionally grants a heal.
This is a problem because it leaves 2h as the only reliable option for major brutality buff outside of combat that synergies with the bow.

I pointed out that nightblades using a bow did have access to a self cast major brutality buff.
Maybe it is a problem, but my point stands. I have taken no stance on the topic.

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.

Which requires you to be in melee range, that's counter intuitive to how archers play.

Anti_Virus

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

I feel like their should be a Fighters guild ability that gives Major Brutality to be inline with Mages guild.

But I don't think they need to add it to bow, because then there will be QQ about no Major Sorcery for Destro/Resto.

I don't think too many people push for bow to be a double-bar weapon, because in this game very few builds double bar the same weapon, other than PVE tanks.

There are also just a lot of trade-offs between classes on both Magic and Stamina builds

For example, if you were a Stam Sorc or Stam DK, you have access to Major Brutality within your class, so you are not necessarily hand-cuffed to 2H. They could double bar bow if they wanted to, but then they lack the gap closer and other skills that NB has. They also don't have a spammable damage class skill.

A magic NB is pretty much tied to resto staff for healing ward, whereas a Magic Templar has more freedom to run DW/Destro due to BoL. Also many magic builds need to waste a slot on Entropy, which really has no other purpose than to give Major Sorcery, and you need to sacrifice any element of surprise to activate it. Whereas Rally provides the ability to buff from stealth, and provides a strong heal if timed properly.

Stam NB has a lot going for it in PVP. If you let them double bar bow, make it on par with melee damage, add that to their already high damage passives, and allow them to have the strongest escape mechanics, you start to get into OP territitory.

I also think they make ranged weapons slightly weaker because as a tradeoff to standing back and hitting people from far away, they don't think you should be doing the equivalent amount of damage that someone who takes the risk of getting up close and personal does. If they gap close on you, and you don't have an answer for that, than IMO that is an issue with your build. Gap closers/melee fighting are a part of the game. Also you are going to want to have an answer for DK wings, Templar Eclipse, etc.

Yes, Snipe is dodgeable, but so are most ranged Magic abilities (except Radiant which really blows as a stam build). Snipe also has a one of the highest non-ultimate damage coefficients in the game (Even higher than Wrecking Blow), and hits like a truck, so it makes sense that it takes some timing and planning to increase its chances to land a hit. I'd be more than annoyed if they tweaked c-frags so that it was almost unavoidable, because if you don't avoid it, you get nuked. Its the same with Snipe.

Meta's emerge because players figure out the optimal set-up for a class. In the case of the Stamina NB it seems to be 2H/Bow. If you don't want to run what is considered the most optimal/efficient build, that is your choice, but you have to live with the shortcomings (i.e. use brutality pots at distance, and power extraction up close).

If anyone could pull a double-bar bow build its a stam NB, since they are fortunate enough to have some class options for melee (surprise attack, Ambush, Drain Power) if you need to use them with a bow equipped.

I plan on keeping my 2H/bow with some Melee abilities on my Stam NB. PVP is going to be flooded with DK's flapping their wings in DB, and I am going to want a way to effectively deal with any class.

1.) Wrong here they don't have access to major brutality outside of combat, the NB ine is an AoE and requires you to be in melee range.

2.) You argue that NB is suited for bow because of melee options, but you're oblivious to the fact that if yoy play a bow build you DO NOT want to be a melee build.

3.) Snipe sucks, it's NOT a reliable it has a long flight time and can be easily dodged, saying snipe is fine is like saying Crystal blast is fine except that skill has a knock down and it deals full dmg reguardless of the range.

Acsvf

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Acsvf wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

How is it irrelevant? You stated potions are an option which they are, but must be purchased and consumed while the the 2h skill 'rally' can be used indefinitely with no cost and additionally grants a heal.
This is a problem because it leaves 2h as the only reliable option for major brutality buff outside of combat that synergies with the bow.

I pointed out that nightblades using a bow did have access to a self cast major brutality buff.
Maybe it is a problem, but my point stands. I have taken no stance on the topic.

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.

Which requires you to be in melee range, that's counter intuitive to how archers play.

Requires you to be in melee range? Are you even replying to the right post?

acw37162

If you want to run bow/bow and want major brutality.

Use potions
Slot Drain power
Play a class that has passive brutality buffs DK/Sorc

The options exist if you so choose to use them.

acw37162

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@masterbroodub17_ESO

Don't bother making these threads Zos ignores them and people don't care. Bow is like the resto staff skill line for stam builds its a support weapon and you only have two options:

support your group in PVP or One shot gank people.

One shot ganking isn't a problem to most people except for @Axorn since he doesn't use impen, but for the most part battle spirit + hardy CP+ impen/dmg shields + radiant magelight + gap closers + slow travel time = weak snipes.

Has the Dev team EVER addressed this at all? Certainly not in the amount of time I've been playing. It seems like this is hot on a lot of other people's minds as well.

No they don't care and the community doesn't really care either all stam builds back bar bow, so as long is a functions as a great utility weapon it doesn't really matter.

people that want bow buffs are in the minority which is usually ignored.

That's unfortunate. The fact that no other weapon/class combination goes without its major damage buff (in a manner that makes sense) is just prejudicial for no real reason.

Put another way, a melee build with any class has access to major brutality in a way that fits that playstyle from multiple sources. Dragon knights can even give it to other people!
Hell, even ranged DPS as a sorcerer provides major brutality from multiple sources!
Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.
It's really that simple.

This is almost funny.

They are the only class to a ranged self cast straight 8% damage increase to every attack be they stamina, magica, or ultimate across the board.

Listening to NB's complain about buffs is borderline lunacy.

Try listing every buff debuff NB has available to it with just class abilities.

Here is a hint it's more then any other clas in the game

Vangy

Actually I may remember seeing @Gilliamtherogue show a screenie of his pure bow NB pull like 30+k DPS before. I cant remember exactly who posted it so hopefully im right and he can provide some input. I personally can pull about 22-25k on bow so it IS competitive. Just wont hit ridiculous numbers like stam melee DK but nothing compares to stam DKs. Compared to other ranged magicka builds, bow is still a little lacking tho. Not the best, but id argue, reasonably competitive. It just takes a lot of work.... And going melee is a lot easier to pull good DPS for the most part.

Vythri

Vangy wrote: »

Actually I may remember seeing @Gilliamtherogue show a screenie of his pure bow NB pull like 30+k DPS before. I cant remember exactly who posted it so hopefully im right and he can provide some input. I personally can pull about 22-25k on bow so it IS competitive. Just wont hit ridiculous numbers like stam melee DK but nothing compares to stam DKs. Compared to other ranged magicka builds, bow is still a little lacking tho. Not the best, but id argue, reasonably competitive. It just takes a lot of work.... And going melee is a lot easier to pull good DPS for the most part.

I think the crux of the issue needs to shift from focusing on Major Brutality for Bow, and instead focus on making Bow more viable in PvP combat. Again, not to be OP, but just to be competitive. Adjusting the Long Shots passive, and fixing Draining Shot's heal to not rely on successfully executing the CC part, and increasing the base ability's range would be a nice place to start. Also reducing the flight time of Snipe and it's morphs, and maybe toning down the sound to alert people, because any good player just dodge rolls or blocks as soon as they hear it, whereas you can sneak and use a gap closer on anybody without any (or very minimal) risk of missing.

I like the idea of putting Brutality in the Fighters Guild to be more in line with it's Mages Guild counterpart skill tree.

The PvE DPS actually isn't terrible, like I said. But you have to get the correct gear and know your rotation pretty well.

Some_Guy

Just get rid of all buffs, and level everything out so that all skills and all weapons do the same thing. Then we can all just go around hitting each other with heavy attacks.

STEVIL

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The Synergy that the bow offers to other weapon builds is incomparable to what other weapons offer for the bow.

So are you saying that the bow currently occupies a unique position of being a great buff utility weapon that can also gank and you want to change it to me more like everything else?

if so, i find the drive for sameness not to my taste.

personally, i find the "pure x lacks y" arguments to fall flat.

Whether it is "i cannot get brutal with only a bow" or "i cannot get spam with sorc class skills" or etc etc etc... all of the same flavor of the same steps:
Step-1 Choose a subset of traits (class, weapon, guild, race passives)
Step-2: Find something not in that subset that you want.
Step-3: Find other examples of it in other subsets.
Step-4: Prepare to ignore any of the other places the character can get it.
Step-5: Cry foul and substandard as you microfocus on this one thing and ignore any advantages your subset may have that the others you reference don't.

STEVIL

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

I feel like their should be a Fighters guild ability that gives Major Brutality to be inline with Mages guild.

And also add something to mage's guild to give the FORCE BUFF fighter guilders get too? or the minor berserk mag flavor?

Anti_Virus

Acsvf wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Acsvf wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

How is it irrelevant? You stated potions are an option which they are, but must be purchased and consumed while the the 2h skill 'rally' can be used indefinitely with no cost and additionally grants a heal.
This is a problem because it leaves 2h as the only reliable option for major brutality buff outside of combat that synergies with the bow.

I pointed out that nightblades using a bow did have access to a self cast major brutality buff.
Maybe it is a problem, but my point stands. I have taken no stance on the topic.

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.

Which requires you to be in melee range, that's counter intuitive to how archers play.

Requires you to be in melee range? Are you even replying to the right post?

Nope, I wasn't lol I read it and interpreted as "NB has a major brutality skill" I wasn't in the right mind at the time.

Vythri

STEVIL wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

I feel like their should be a Fighters guild ability that gives Major Brutality to be inline with Mages guild.

And also add something to mage's guild to give the FORCE BUFF fighter guilders get too? or the minor berserk mag flavor?

Or add something to the Fighters Guild to give it Major Empower? We don't want to go down this road.

Mages Guild has something to buff magic damage, and Fighters Guild should have something to buff weapon damage. That's it.

masterbroodub17_ESO

acw37162 wrote: »

If you want to run bow/bow and want major brutality.

Use potions
Slot Drain power
Play a class that has passive brutality buffs DK/Sorc

The options exist if you so choose to use them.

So let me get this straight. Your fixes are:

-Re-Roll, *** all that time you invested or the fact that you like the class besides this one thing.
-Spend all your gold on potions
-Use a melee skill on a ranged build

Nope, nope, and nope.

masterbroodub17_ESO

STEVIL wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The Synergy that the bow offers to other weapon builds is incomparable to what other weapons offer for the bow.

So are you saying that the bow currently occupies a unique position of being a great buff utility weapon that can also gank and you want to change it to me more like everything else?

if so, i find the drive for sameness not to my taste.

personally, i find the "pure x lacks y" arguments to fall flat.

Whether it is "i cannot get brutal with only a bow" or "i cannot get spam with sorc class skills" or etc etc etc... all of the same flavor of the same steps:
Step-1 Choose a subset of traits (class, weapon, guild, race passives)
Step-2: Find something not in that subset that you want.
Step-3: Find other examples of it in other subsets.
Step-4: Prepare to ignore any of the other places the character can get it.
Step-5: Cry foul and substandard as you microfocus on this one thing and ignore any advantages your subset may have that the others you reference don't.

Except it's a known fact that running a bow build is gimp, period. All of the responses throughout this thread demonstrate that fact. There is no arguing it.

Edit: Also, go into a trials group with a Bow/Bow build and watch how fast you are asked to leave. That is content being denied to a player simply by virtue of the weapon/playstyle they enjoy.

STEVIL

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The Synergy that the bow offers to other weapon builds is incomparable to what other weapons offer for the bow.

So are you saying that the bow currently occupies a unique position of being a great buff utility weapon that can also gank and you want to change it to me more like everything else?

if so, i find the drive for sameness not to my taste.

personally, i find the "pure x lacks y" arguments to fall flat.

Whether it is "i cannot get brutal with only a bow" or "i cannot get spam with sorc class skills" or etc etc etc... all of the same flavor of the same steps:
Step-1 Choose a subset of traits (class, weapon, guild, race passives)
Step-2: Find something not in that subset that you want.
Step-3: Find other examples of it in other subsets.
Step-4: Prepare to ignore any of the other places the character can get it.
Step-5: Cry foul and substandard as you microfocus on this one thing and ignore any advantages your subset may have that the others you reference don't.

Except it's a known fact that running a bow build is gimp, period. All of the responses throughout this thread demonstrate that fact. There is no arguing it.

Edit: Also, go into a trials group with a Bow/Bow build and watch how fast you are asked to leave. That is content being denied to a player simply by virtue of the weapon/playstyle they enjoy.

Not exactly sure but is bow unique in that having it slotted on both bars is considered a subpar choice? Are 2h/2h, resto/resto, destro/destto, dw/dw and sns/sns all considered fine and going to earn you invites?

I ask cuz most of the end game or trial builds seemed to have diff wpns for diff bars.

If its not uncommon for diff bar diff wpns then the pass on bow/bow isnt bow specific, right?

Iirc i just saw a stamsorc build video getting some pop recently which was dw/bow.

masterbroodub17_ESO

STEVIL wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The Synergy that the bow offers to other weapon builds is incomparable to what other weapons offer for the bow.

So are you saying that the bow currently occupies a unique position of being a great buff utility weapon that can also gank and you want to change it to me more like everything else?

if so, i find the drive for sameness not to my taste.

personally, i find the "pure x lacks y" arguments to fall flat.

Whether it is "i cannot get brutal with only a bow" or "i cannot get spam with sorc class skills" or etc etc etc... all of the same flavor of the same steps:
Step-1 Choose a subset of traits (class, weapon, guild, race passives)
Step-2: Find something not in that subset that you want.
Step-3: Find other examples of it in other subsets.
Step-4: Prepare to ignore any of the other places the character can get it.
Step-5: Cry foul and substandard as you microfocus on this one thing and ignore any advantages your subset may have that the others you reference don't.

Except it's a known fact that running a bow build is gimp, period. All of the responses throughout this thread demonstrate that fact. There is no arguing it.

Edit: Also, go into a trials group with a Bow/Bow build and watch how fast you are asked to leave. That is content being denied to a player simply by virtue of the weapon/playstyle they enjoy.

Not exactly sure but is bow unique in that having it slotted on both bars is considered a subpar choice? Are 2h/2h, resto/resto, destro/destto, dw/dw and sns/sns all considered fine and going to earn you invites?

I ask cuz most of the end game or trial builds seemed to have diff wpns for diff bars.

If its not uncommon for diff bar diff wpns then the pass on bow/bow isnt bow specific, right?

Iirc i just saw a stamsorc build video getting some pop recently which was dw/bow.

There's a sizable difference between preferred/min-max and GTFO

STEVIL

Vythri wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

I feel like their should be a Fighters guild ability that gives Major Brutality to be inline with Mages guild.

And also add something to mage's guild to give the FORCE BUFF fighter guilders get too? or the minor berserk mag flavor?

Or add something to the Fighters Guild to give it Major Empower? We don't want to go down this road.

Mages Guild has something to buff magic damage, and Fighters Guild should have something to buff weapon damage. That's it.

Why? Why is that it?

Oh... right, subset and ignore outside the subset if it doesnt fit the scheme.

Mages Guild
Slot magelight for critical
Slot inner for extra magica
Fire entropy for sorcery for spell damage
Trigger any mage guild for one use empower
Passive for extra magica per passive slotted

Fighters guild
Slot dawnbreak for 5% weapon dmg
Slot hunter for critical
Crouch crit for one use 8% damage boost under active hunter
Use trap for minor force bump crit dmg by 12%
Passive for 3% wpn dmg per slotted fg ability
Passive for 20% boost to fg vs daedra, vamp, ww.

Not sure i look at that list and think 'yeah, fg buffs are damage poor by comparison.

Do you?

masterbroodub17_ESO

STEVIL wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

I feel like their should be a Fighters guild ability that gives Major Brutality to be inline with Mages guild.

And also add something to mage's guild to give the FORCE BUFF fighter guilders get too? or the minor berserk mag flavor?

Or add something to the Fighters Guild to give it Major Empower? We don't want to go down this road.

Mages Guild has something to buff magic damage, and Fighters Guild should have something to buff weapon damage. That's it.

Why? Why is that it?

Oh... right, subset and ignore outside the subset if it doesnt fit the scheme.

Mages Guild
Slot magelight for critical
Slot inner for extra magica
Fire entropy for sorcery for spell damage
Trigger any mage guild for one use empower
Passive for extra magica per passive slotted

Fighters guild
Slot dawnbreak for 5% weapon dmg
Slot hunter for critical
Crouch crit for one use 8% damage boost under active hunter
Use trap for minor force bump crit dmg by 12%
Passive for 3% wpn dmg per slotted fg ability
Passive for 20% boost to fg vs daedra, vamp, ww.

Not sure i look at that list and think 'yeah, fg buffs are damage poor by comparison.

Do you?

Yes. You intentionally leave out the percentage increase on Major Sorcery, how convenient. 20% boost to damage, not based on target type, not based on anything else other than using it. Nice try though.

Also, nobody was saying that the FG was in need of a buff. The idea was the place a Major Brutality source there so that any person can access it regardless of build.

Again, if it's going to be a requirement (content is scaled around having it) it needs to be readily available.

masterbroodub17_ESO

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

I feel like their should be a Fighters guild ability that gives Major Brutality to be inline with Mages guild.

And also add something to mage's guild to give the FORCE BUFF fighter guilders get too? or the minor berserk mag flavor?

Or add something to the Fighters Guild to give it Major Empower? We don't want to go down this road.

Mages Guild has something to buff magic damage, and Fighters Guild should have something to buff weapon damage. That's it.

Why? Why is that it?

Oh... right, subset and ignore outside the subset if it doesnt fit the scheme.

Mages Guild
Slot magelight for critical
Slot inner for extra magica
Fire entropy for sorcery for spell damage
Trigger any mage guild for one use empower
Passive for extra magica per passive slotted

Fighters guild
Slot dawnbreak for 5% weapon dmg
Slot hunter for critical
Crouch crit for one use 8% damage boost under active hunter
Use trap for minor force bump crit dmg by 12%
Passive for 3% wpn dmg per slotted fg ability
Passive for 20% boost to fg vs daedra, vamp, ww.

Not sure i look at that list and think 'yeah, fg buffs are damage poor by comparison.

Do you?

Yes. You intentionally leave out the percentage increase on Major Sorcery, how convenient. 20% boost to damage, not based on target type, not based on anything else other than using it. Nice try though.

Also, nobody was saying that the FG was in need of a buff. The idea was the place a Major Brutality source there so that any person can access it regardless of build, and since the mages guild has the equivalent buff it just made good sense.

Again, if it's going to be a requirement (content is scaled around having it) it needs to be readily available.

Xvorg

acw37162 wrote: »

If you want to run bow/bow and want major brutality.

Use potions
Slot Drain power
Play a class that has passive brutality buffs DK/Sorc

The options exist if you so choose to use them.

a little bird told me that dreugh king slayer comes in rings now...

just sayin'

masterbroodub17_ESO

Accidental double-post

Also, I think I'm just done with this topic. I keep having to repeat the same thing over and over in different ways as if somehow the next response from someone is going to change facts. Major Brutality is a requirement for keeping up with DPS, and it's not readily available to every build. One last time, if it's going to be a standard it needs to come standard. *shrug*

MrTarkanian48

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

1.) Wrong here they don't have access to major brutality outside of combat, the NB ine is an AoE and requires you to be in melee range.

2.) You argue that NB is suited for bow because of melee options, but you're oblivious to the fact that if yoy play a bow build you DO NOT want to be a melee build.

3.) Snipe sucks, it's NOT a reliable it has a long flight time and can be easily dodged, saying snipe is fine is like saying Crystal blast is fine except that skill has a knock down and it deals full dmg reguardless of the range.

1). The only classes that have access to Major Brutality outside of combat are DK's and Sorc's. You have the option to use one of these classes. But then you have to deal with the things that they don't have, that NB's do, which is alot: 10% crit damage, 10% weapon damage from stealth, crit % bonus with Assassination abilities slotted, 15% stam and Mag regen, Shadowy Disguise guaranteed crit and escape mechanic, Shadow Image kiting mechanic, 8% damage from Relentless Focus etc. Everything has a trade-off, and you can't expect your class to have everything.

2.) If you want to be 100% ranged that is your decision. Unfortunately, it does not work well in this game, due to the fact that a lot of mechanics are similar to paper-scissors-rock in its attacks and counters. Your ranged build might be very strong against X build, but very weak against Y build. There are people that only want to play melee builds, and they are guaranteed to come and get in your face. If you choose to be a one-dimensional player, that is your decision, don't complain when you can't be effective in all scenarios.

My only point is at least with NB you can slot a bow, and still put Surprise Attack on one of your bars, so at least when another NB is spambushing you, you have an 1 option on your bar that can be an effective melee counter. Other classes like Stam Sorc and DK do not have a spammable melee ability, so if you run 2 bows, you are limited on your melee counters. Again, if you choose not to use it, that is your decision

3.) Snipe does not suck. You just need to get creative to make it land. Use stealth and cloak to your advantage, and buff your initial hit with Magelight. Get to your opponents side or back so its not so obvious to them that the arrow is incoming. Don't just spam Snipe, but use Snipe>Light Attack>Poision Injection Combo. Magic builds can't dodge roll for days, so if you keep the pressure on them eventually they will not be able keep dodging it. If your complaining that stam builds dodge too many attacks, than it isnt a problem with snipe. If you expect people to just stand their and eat your ranged attacks, then I do not know what to tell you. I dodge snipes, the same way I dodge Dark Flare, C-Frags etc. If you plan on getting in a 1v1 and Snipe spamming, expect to lose, its just the way it is. Now with the change to Relentless Focus change, you have another hard hitting ability with a shorter flight time than Snipe. Weave some LA, proc Relentless, root them with Bombard, and rip off the Assassin's Will proc.

Finally, I think most people do not complain about this because there is no reason that I can conceive why anyone would want to run bow on both bars. Bow only has 5 abilities. You can run a bow on 1 bar and slot all bow abilities, then slot a 2H and slot your class abilities and buffs. You also can use Rally then, which is the best source of Major Brutality since it can be buffed without taking you out of stealth, and gives you a heal which NBs inherently lack. You aren't forced to slot any damage abilities. Use Double Take on your 2H for a Magicka based source of Major Expedition and Major Evasion when stam is low, and dodge roll on your bow bar for major exp. when you have stam to burn. 2H also synergizes well because you can fire your killing shot, and while it is in the air, swap to your 2H and get 30% stam recovery for 10 seconds.

Its war man. There aren't any rules. If you refuse to use all the different tools you have to be effective, then you will undoubtedly get beat by players that are.

STEVIL

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

I feel like their should be a Fighters guild ability that gives Major Brutality to be inline with Mages guild.

And also add something to mage's guild to give the FORCE BUFF fighter guilders get too? or the minor berserk mag flavor?

Or add something to the Fighters Guild to give it Major Empower? We don't want to go down this road.

Mages Guild has something to buff magic damage, and Fighters Guild should have something to buff weapon damage. That's it.

Why? Why is that it?

Oh... right, subset and ignore outside the subset if it doesnt fit the scheme.

Mages Guild
Slot magelight for critical
Slot inner for extra magica
Fire entropy for sorcery for spell damage
Trigger any mage guild for one use empower
Passive for extra magica per passive slotted

Fighters guild
Slot dawnbreak for 5% weapon dmg
Slot hunter for critical
Crouch crit for one use 8% damage boost under active hunter
Use trap for minor force bump crit dmg by 12%
Passive for 3% wpn dmg per slotted fg ability
Passive for 20% boost to fg vs daedra, vamp, ww.

Not sure i look at that list and think 'yeah, fg buffs are damage poor by comparison.

Do you?

Yes. You intentionally leave out the percentage increase on Major Sorcery, how convenient. 20% boost to damage, not based on target type, not based on anything else other than using it. Nice try though.

Also, nobody was saying that the FG was in need of a buff. The idea was the place a Major Brutality source there so that any person can access it regardless of build.

Again, if it's going to be a requirement (content is scaled around having it) it needs to be readily available.

Huh?

Correct i did not list the values for major sorc or brutality... since as the subject of discussion, i thought they were known.

Now are you saying we should add brutality to fg and just pretend its not a buff?

Personally, i agree with Syndrome.
Once every;ody is special, nobody is.

Any buff so big and so ubiquitous that every char needs it and every char can have it should be scrapped ot eliminated.

But that doesnt change the fallacy of the subset, segregate and demand micro-equality approach to "analysis."

masterbroodub17_ESO

[/quote]
Any buff so big and so ubiquitous that every char needs it and every char can have it should be scrapped ot eliminated.
[/quote]

Correct, and Major Brutality/Sorcery would be those buffs. You really think it's MORE likely that they go away or that they make a slight alteration to one skill?

Xvorg

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

1.) Wrong here they don't have access to major brutality outside of combat, the NB ine is an AoE and requires you to be in melee range.

2.) You argue that NB is suited for bow because of melee options, but you're oblivious to the fact that if yoy play a bow build you DO NOT want to be a melee build.

3.) Snipe sucks, it's NOT a reliable it has a long flight time and can be easily dodged, saying snipe is fine is like saying Crystal blast is fine except that skill has a knock down and it deals full dmg reguardless of the range.

1). The only classes that have access to Major Brutality outside of combat are DK's and Sorc's. You have the option to use one of these classes. But then you have to deal with the things that they don't have, that NB's do, which is alot: 10% crit damage, 10% weapon damage from stealth, crit % bonus with Assassination abilities slotted, 15% stam and Mag regen, Shadowy Disguise guaranteed crit and escape mechanic, Shadow Image kiting mechanic, 8% damage from Relentless Focus etc. Everything has a trade-off, and you can't expect your class to have everything.

Saddly, not anymore. Disguise has made me get killed too often this patch (pvp), at the point I'm considering going back to cloak. Or trade it for a shield or blur.

I hope devs have a look at it.

Anti_Virus

Vangy wrote: »

Actually I may remember seeing @Gilliamtherogue show a screenie of his pure bow NB pull like 30+k DPS before. I cant remember exactly who posted it so hopefully im right and he can provide some input. I personally can pull about 22-25k on bow so it IS competitive. Just wont hit ridiculous numbers like stam melee DK but nothing compares to stam DKs. Compared to other ranged magicka builds, bow is still a little lacking tho. Not the best, but id argue, reasonably competitive. It just takes a lot of work.... And going melee is a lot easier to pull good DPS for the most part.

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

1.) Wrong here they don't have access to major brutality outside of combat, the NB ine is an AoE and requires you to be in melee range.

2.) You argue that NB is suited for bow because of melee options, but you're oblivious to the fact that if yoy play a bow build you DO NOT want to be a melee build.

3.) Snipe sucks, it's NOT a reliable it has a long flight time and can be easily dodged, saying snipe is fine is like saying Crystal blast is fine except that skill has a knock down and it deals full dmg reguardless of the range.

1). The only classes that have access to Major Brutality outside of combat are DK's and Sorc's. You have the option to use one of these classes. But then you have to deal with the things that they don't have, that NB's do, which is alot: 10% crit damage, 10% weapon damage from stealth, crit % bonus with Assassination abilities slotted, 15% stam and Mag regen, Shadowy Disguise guaranteed crit and escape mechanic, Shadow Image kiting mechanic, 8% damage from Relentless Focus etc. Everything has a trade-off, and you can't expect your class to have everything.

2.) If you want to be 100% ranged that is your decision. Unfortunately, it does not work well in this game, due to the fact that a lot of mechanics are similar to paper-scissors-rock in its attacks and counters. Your ranged build might be very strong against X build, but very weak against Y build. There are people that only want to play melee builds, and they are guaranteed to come and get in your face. If you choose to be a one-dimensional player, that is your decision, don't complain when you can't be effective in all scenarios.

My only point is at least with NB you can slot a bow, and still put Surprise Attack on one of your bars, so at least when another NB is spambushing you, you have an 1 option on your bar that can be an effective melee counter. Other classes like Stam Sorc and DK do not have a spammable melee ability, so if you run 2 bows, you are limited on your melee counters. Again, if you choose not to use it, that is your decision

3.) Snipe does not suck. You just need to get creative to make it land. Use stealth and cloak to your advantage, and buff your initial hit with Magelight. Get to your opponents side or back so its not so obvious to them that the arrow is incoming. Don't just spam Snipe, but use Snipe>Light Attack>Poision Injection Combo. Magic builds can't dodge roll for days, so if you keep the pressure on them eventually they will not be able keep dodging it. If your complaining that stam builds dodge too many attacks, than it isnt a problem with snipe. If you expect people to just stand their and eat your ranged attacks, then I do not know what to tell you. I dodge snipes, the same way I dodge Dark Flare, C-Frags etc. If you plan on getting in a 1v1 and Snipe spamming, expect to lose, its just the way it is. Now with the change to Relentless Focus change, you have another hard hitting ability with a shorter flight time than Snipe. Weave some LA, proc Relentless, root them with Bombard, and rip off the Assassin's Will proc.

Finally, I think most people do not complain about this because there is no reason that I can conceive why anyone would want to run bow on both bars. Bow only has 5 abilities. You can run a bow on 1 bar and slot all bow abilities, then slot a 2H and slot your class abilities and buffs. You also can use Rally then, which is the best source of Major Brutality since it can be buffed without taking you out of stealth, and gives you a heal which NBs inherently lack. You aren't forced to slot any damage abilities. Use Double Take on your 2H for a Magicka based source of Major Expedition and Major Evasion when stam is low, and dodge roll on your bow bar for major exp. when you have stam to burn. 2H also synergizes well because you can fire your killing shot, and while it is in the air, swap to your 2H and get 30% stam recovery for 10 seconds.

Its war man. There aren't any rules. If you refuse to use all the different tools you have to be effective, then you will undoubtedly get beat by players that are.

1.) This isn't about classes having everything its about bow having a reliable dmg buff, If NB class gets one or not it doesn't matter but their should be one available to all whether its in a class skill line or other skill lines.

There is no point pigeonholing builds into one play style just because "that's the way it should be". Just because one class doen't have doesn't mean nothing else should have.

That's like saying:
You: "dang my house is destroyed."

Me: "That's terrible, want to stay at my place?"

You: "Nah it's not fair I want your house be destroyed too".

2.) Your argument is flawed here Sorcerers are "100% ranged" and the function perfectly fine they don't have any melee skills in their kit. Sorc class has shields teleports mines and minons to summon to aid them during ranged combat. Why is the bow under developed compared to mage play?

The game is "play the way you want to" yet archery which is a staple playstyle on fantasy RPG games is lacking because of how this game works. Gap closers can be spammed and melee combat is easier than ranged combat.

3.) Yes Snipe does suck, You dont use bow at all it seems, it isn't a reliable dps skill, its like spaming Crystal shards and Dark flare, the difference is Sorcs and Templars have alternative skills that can substitute them in the destruction staff skill tree "force pulse" The bow skill line does not.

If you're saying poison injection and LAs are sufficient enough to kill targets then you are clearly wrong. A dot and a couple if LAs are not going to cut it especially when NBs are spamming ambush, and DKs are spamming crit rush while simultaneously dodging all your snipes (the bread and butter dps skill)

Magic builds will out heal and stack shields against bow attacks although they are supposed to be squishy. Good luck killing a templar with snipe and PI when they can BoL spam and cleanse every dot, good luck killing a sorc that will stack 3 shields( hardend,Harness, Healing ward) and absorb all damage while pumiling you with their quick dps skill that could interrupt your casting (crushing shock). Good luck killing a DK spamming Scales all day (although its a good counter)

Also what's wrong with having 2 bows slotted? You can run DW/DW SnB/SnB 2H/2H destro/destro all just fine but double bow baring doesn't work Why? 2H is such a good skill line you can literally put every skill from that skill line on your bar and be fine and DW,SnB and Destro have class skills that support those play styles except bow.

Infact Zos encourages that, I remeber when playing I was in a loading screen and one of the tips said "when you hit lvl 15 you can equip the same weapon on your second bar"
I'll have to show you a screen shot at some point.

You say NBs have relentless focus, that's great but you forget that not every archer is a NB so what about the other classes do they have to 'suck it up too?' Because that's the way it should be?

Archers aren't trying to be the 'best' we're trying to be competitive and find a place in this terrible one-gapcloser spam- shield stacking- perma healing- melee oriented meta.


EDIT: apologize for grammatical errors This post was typed on my phone.