Still no brutality for Bow?

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MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing @masterbroodub17_ESO

I still would like someone to give me a reasonable explanation as to why you would want to run a bow on both bars.

Very few people do this regardless of what build you run. I know that Magic builds can do double bar destro, and have Major Sorcery from Entropy, but they usually opt for DW/Destro for the added damage on one bar.

I think most people, even purely bow builds, don't complain about this because it just makes sense to run 2H and Bow.

1) Rally and Vigor ticks tick harder on your 2H bar
2) Major Brutality. And unique to 2H it does not break stealth, which is huge.
3) It provides them with Melee options (Most people like this though you may not). Even if its is just the ability to light/heavy attack.
4) You can still slot all bow abilities and your bow bar and use your 2H as a buff/heal bar
5) If you are a NB, you have access to Double Take, which you can slot on your back bar for Major Expedition, without burning all your stam dodge-rolling.

If you are arguing that the tooltip damage of bow should be in line with Melee, thats fine, but then you would need to buff destro-resto damage. Bow currently is inline with other ranged weapons.

If your main complaint is no Major Brutality, run potions or slot a 2H buff bar. Maybe they will add it to the Fighter's Guild sometime, but I doubt it.

If your main complaint is that Bow is not comparable damage-wise, it is gimped compared to melee. But it is inline with magicka ranged options. Sure Destro has a spammable ability in Force Pulse, but what else does it have? Wall of elements, A ground AoE that is easily avoided. Impulse: A weak AoE that barely anyone uses in PVP. It does not have a hard ticking dot like poison injection that is an execute. It does not have an ability like snipe that hits almost as hard as wrecking blow. It doesnt have a spammable AoE ability that roots multiple opponents.

Magicka builds aren't burning people down with Destro abilities. They are killing people with ranged magicka based class abilities, and weaving in some destro attacks occasionally. When you die to a magicka templar, its because he lined up some dark flares, maybe vampires bane, Javelin etc. and then burned you down with Jesus Beam. When a sorc kills you he catches you with a Frag, curse, and gets you to execute range and finishes you with Fury. Many Magic NBs in PVP dont even run a destro, they use Funnel, Crippling Grasp, Lotus Fan, Concealed Weapon and Impale

The problem is that Stamina builds do not have many, if any, ranged class abilities to compliment bow. Which kind of makes sense because what would they be? Magic builds use Magic. What would a stamina player have that is comparable to C-Frags, Curse, Inevitable Det, Dark Flare, Jesus Beam, etc?

If you want to go full bow, you would need the devs to create some Stamina based ranged abilities that can compete with what Magicka builds currently have, and compliment a ranged playstyle. Good luck with that, since it took so long just to get what we have now. This is why 99% of stam builds involve some sort of melee component, because that is the range on most of their abilities.

1.) It does make sense to use a 2h in every build since it gives a heal and major brutality but zos has make great changes to alleviate the need for one (DW has major brutality etc.) So asking for other ways to gain this buff shouldn't hurt you, it would open doors for build diversity.
Pure bow builds do complain about using a 2h in fact

The 2h skill is so good you gimp yourself not using it. Why? Why must every stam build be forced into using a 2h? Is this how zos wants stam builds to be? Every one use a 2h and have no build diversity? This isn't like an ES game to force certain weapons and playstyles on people to be competitive.

2.) No one wants bow dmg to increase all we ask is for the skills to be more reliable in combat.

Snipe sucks as a dps skill its a great opener from stealth but after that it's as lack luster as Crystal blast/Dark flare what's so hard about making this skill more efficient? Increasing the velocity(travel faster) would greatly help dps of course the dmg would need to be adjusted but players would have a harder time dodging it making it more inline with other ranged dps skills (force pulse, Swallow Soul) every ranged players knows that their dmg suffers because of ranged advantage, but you and I both Know That's BS.Spammable gap closers and the ease of melee combat compared to ranged combat makes this arguement invalid.

3.) everyone keeps saying that and we know thar potions are an option, but they cost gold and don't provide additional benefits that class buffs would have (rally heals, DW can bouce and hit targets, Surge can heal, Igneous weps grant both brutality and sorcery in adttions to earthenheart passives etc.)

I know it doesn't matter to you because you're probably a melee build so you have everything you need to funtion but it doesn't hurt to put a buff in the Fighter's guild skill line so that other weapons (bow/SnB) can have access to it

4.) As I said earlier ranged should deal less dmg in most MMOs this works out well except this one.....

There's absolutely NO risk playing a melee build just mash your face on crit rush/ambush and you not only close the gap, but you snare and deal quite a bit of dmg also remember they can be spammed.

So the ranged build has to kite with limited skills to do so in an environment where melee builds can close the gap when ever they want to while attempting to deal dmg with a slow cast time plus travel time skill (snipe) in a meta where burst dmg is the way to go.

Also mind you bow skills don't have buffs, like major brutality which increase dmg and healing so survivability is also lacking just because you decide to use a bow.

You say poison injection and exceute? Are you kidding me! The skill that templars purge off! Oh how about DKs healing through it? Sorcs will stack shields, NBs will cloak it off. Seriously though PI is not a threat.

You say Snipe hits as hard as Wreking Blow? What are you smoking? First of all you shouldn't even be getting hit by snipe, you have 3 seconds to dodge,block,refelct,LOS,and shield stack it plus an audio que.


5.) You hit the nail on the head with this part, yep there is is serous lack of ranged stam abilities in the game and it a shame, magic builds have class skill lines and weapon skill lines to choose from stam builds have only ONE option and it the bow skill line. Heck Archers have no ranged ultimate all of them seem to be for magic or melee which is a real shame.

Have you played this game way back? When it was called "Elder robes online?" Stam builds weren't viable at all. People rioted on the forums about it until today where NBs have lots of stam morphs of melee skills. The devs don't have to make new skills they just need to tweak exciting ones to be more vaible for ranged combat in a game where melee combat is vastly superior. They could make a crossbow skill line, A long Bow skill line and short bow and go from there.

You don’t play an archer build that's fine you probably don't care, but in other ES games and Fantasy RPGs archery is a staple playstyle for a lot of people but in this game its lacking greatly because of bow design flaws.

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MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

My intent is to run potions as a temporary fix, but honestly it just shouldn't be that way (and it's still not as good as the melee options).
Also, the statement about being in line with destro/restro staves is 100% false. Not because of the Destro/Restro Staff skills, but because of the mage's guild line. I addressed this already earlier.
That's why the easiest fix in my mind is to alter something in the Fighter's Guild line to work more like an entropy or a rally-type buff.
Why even have a bow if you can't use it on its own to deal adequate damage for endgame content?
You ask why I don't just run a 2H on my back bar, I ask why should I have to in order to be even close to viable? If it was a matter of min-max then sure, I would agree 100%. The reality is you either play one way or you're gimped with a bow.

My main point is that what you are trying to do is definitely an uphill battle due to how Stamina is designed.

If your a stam NB, your stam class damage skills are Surprise Attack, Ambush, Drain Power, Incap Strike (all melee). If your a Stam DK its Venomous Claw, Noxious Breath, Take Flight (all melee), If your a Stam Templar its Jabs, Toppling Charge, Javelin, (One ranged, rest melee). If your a stam sorc you have zero spammable damage melee or not and rely 100% on weapon abilities.

Now if you're a Magic build you have ranged class abilities in every class. These players use ranged destro staves, but also weave in a lot of class abilities. C-Frags, Curse, Darkflare, Inev Det, Overload, Mages Wrath, Liquid Lightning, Aurora Javelin, Blazing Spear, Jesus Beam, Vampire's Bane, Funnel Health, Crippling Grasp, Impale, Soul Assault. These are just some that come to mind, but there are many.

Imagine if you were a Magic build, but you did not have any of these ranged class abilities and they were all melee range, and you were 100% reliant on the Destro/Resto staff skill lines. You would get absolutely dominated.

That is essentially what you are trying to do by going 100% ranged with bow. Is it fair? Thats debatable. But you are not playing to your classes strength. By relying 100% on bow abilities you are gimped. Not because bow is terrible, but because your class abilities do not support that playstyle.

Bow is lacking in addtion to the classes not supporting the play style
Thats the whole argument here are you going to add solutions or just identify the problem and tell us to "deal with it"

Here are my two options to fix this issue

- Make the classes support bow playstyle by adding more ranged stamina morphs

-Make the bow skill line able to support itself like DW and 2H

Which is eaiser to do? code in a bunch of skill for 4 classes and worry about balance for each one or tweak one specific skill line to be more of a dps skill line and less of a utility?

Magic builds don't have to use a staff for ranged dps they can equip two swords ignoring range penalty and still deal great dmg from a distance without a staff, and the only choice for stam builds to play at range is to use the Bow skill line.

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Bromburak wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Bow also doesn't have a spammable dps skill

2H has one (Dizzing swing/Wrecking Blow) also has CC built in

DW has one (Rapid strikes)

Destro staff has one(force pulse)

Bow has one (Nothing)

Sorry, you cannot expect every line is the same and ignore current trade offs.

A ranged skill like snipe for example is an outstanding opener but not available for other weapon lines.
Now what? You want the same skill copied to other weapon lines?

Bow is a great weapon line and statistically the most used opener out of stealth.
Do the math what that means in PvP within 2 seconds.

More ignorance, what "trade off" is there from bow to Detro staff and other weapons?

Are you telling me that bow should only be a gank weapon? The other skills lines go above an beyond what they should do.

SnB is a tank weapon set yet people use it to be an exceptional dps weapon with the added defensive perks and passives

DW has some great utility and the highest dps skill for stam build in the game atm (rapid strikes)

Destro synergises with every magic build with great utility skills and great dps skills

2H well it has everything.

Once again if you get killed by snipe:

1.) Wear impen or put a dmg shield on
2.) Use radiant mage light
3.) Listen for the audio que for snipe
4.) L2P

STEVIL

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

@ShadowStarKing @masterbroodub17_ESO

I still would like someone to give me a reasonable explanation as to why you would want to run a bow on both bars.

Very few people do this regardless of what build you run. I know that Magic builds can do double bar destro, and have Major Sorcery from Entropy, but they usually opt for DW/Destro for the added damage on one bar.

I think most people, even purely bow builds, don't complain about this because it just makes sense to run 2H and Bow.

1) Rally and Vigor ticks tick harder on your 2H bar
2) Major Brutality. And unique to 2H it does not break stealth, which is huge.
3) It provides them with Melee options (Most people like this though you may not). Even if its is just the ability to light/heavy attack.
4) You can still slot all bow abilities and your bow bar and use your 2H as a buff/heal bar
5) If you are a NB, you have access to Double Take, which you can slot on your back bar for Major Expedition, without burning all your stam dodge-rolling.

If you are arguing that the tooltip damage of bow should be in line with Melee, thats fine, but then you would need to buff destro-resto damage. Bow currently is inline with other ranged weapons.

If your main complaint is no Major Brutality, run potions or slot a 2H buff bar. Maybe they will add it to the Fighter's Guild sometime, but I doubt it.

If your main complaint is that Bow is not comparable damage-wise, it is gimped compared to melee. But it is inline with magicka ranged options. Sure Destro has a spammable ability in Force Pulse, but what else does it have? Wall of elements, A ground AoE that is easily avoided. Impulse: A weak AoE that barely anyone uses in PVP. It does not have a hard ticking dot like poison injection that is an execute. It does not have an ability like snipe that hits almost as hard as wrecking blow. It doesnt have a spammable AoE ability that roots multiple opponents.

Magicka builds aren't burning people down with Destro abilities. They are killing people with ranged magicka based class abilities, and weaving in some destro attacks occasionally. When you die to a magicka templar, its because he lined up some dark flares, maybe vampires bane, Javelin etc. and then burned you down with Jesus Beam. When a sorc kills you he catches you with a Frag, curse, and gets you to execute range and finishes you with Fury. Many Magic NBs in PVP dont even run a destro, they use Funnel, Crippling Grasp, Lotus Fan, Concealed Weapon and Impale

The problem is that Stamina builds do not have many, if any, ranged class abilities to compliment bow. Which kind of makes sense because what would they be? Magic builds use Magic. What would a stamina player have that is comparable to C-Frags, Curse, Inevitable Det, Dark Flare, Jesus Beam, etc?

If you want to go full bow, you would need the devs to create some Stamina based ranged abilities that can compete with what Magicka builds currently have, and compliment a ranged playstyle. Good luck with that, since it took so long just to get what we have now. This is why 99% of stam builds involve some sort of melee component, because that is the range on most of their abilities.

I can't explain dbl bow. When I have done dbl destroy it was as a sorc with pets and other toggles having to divide my destroy single target with destroy aoe on diff bars.

No idea abt bow. Maybe a stam sorc pet build low on slots?

masterbroodub17_ESO

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

5.) You hit the nail on the head with this part, yep there is is serous lack of ranged stam abilities in the game and it a shame, magic builds have class skill lines and weapon skill lines to choose from stam builds have only ONE option and it the bow skill line. Heck Archers have no ranged ultimate all of them seem to be for magic or melee which is a real shame.

Have you played this game way back? When it was called "Elder robes online?" Stam builds weren't viable at all. People rioted on the forums about it until today were NBs have lots of stam morphs of melee skills. The devs don't have to make new skills they just need to tweak exciting ones to be more vaible for ranged combat in a game where melee combat is vastly superior. They could make a crossbow skill line, A long Bow skill line and short bow and go from there

You don’t play an archer build that's fine you probably don't care, but in othet ES games and Fantasy RPGs archery is a staple playstyle for a lot of people but in this game its lacking greatly because of bow design flaws.

All of this, especially the bolded.

Also, I don't understand how people are still trying to argue that bow isn't gimp and admitting that it is in the same sentence. "Yeah, it's gimpy unless you run a specific build but......it doesn't need to be fixed"

Xvorg

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

5.) You hit the nail on the head with this part, yep there is is serous lack of ranged stam abilities in the game and it a shame, magic builds have class skill lines and weapon skill lines to choose from stam builds have only ONE option and it the bow skill line. Heck Archers have no ranged ultimate all of them seem to be for magic or melee which is a real shame.

Have you played this game way back? When it was called "Elder robes online?" Stam builds weren't viable at all. People rioted on the forums about it until today were NBs have lots of stam morphs of melee skills. The devs don't have to make new skills they just need to tweak exciting ones to be more vaible for ranged combat in a game where melee combat is vastly superior. They could make a crossbow skill line, A long Bow skill line and short bow and go from there

You don’t play an archer build that's fine you probably don't care, but in othet ES games and Fantasy RPGs archery is a staple playstyle for a lot of people but in this game its lacking greatly because of bow design flaws.

All of this, especially the bolded.

Also, I don't understand how people are still trying to argue that bow isn't gimp and admitting that it is in the same sentence. "Yeah, it's gimpy unless you run a specific build but......it doesn't need to be fixed"

You have a skill that gives yoou minor berserk each time you attack from stealth. And trapping webs now an option for ranged builds, with a more than nice snare.

Instead of asking for a buff in the line, you should ask for skill that support the playing style, such as a stam version of agony, a stam version of obsidian shard, a stam version of rune. Templars have a stam version of jav, that stacks pretty well with poison injection or snipe.

Other option is a skill that allow archers to enter in stealth faster than other skill lines. Such passive or active skill would make arechers life better.

But the major brut buff is not going to do anything for the archer playing style. It is going to make the bow the weapon stamblades use to get the MB buff before ambush, allowing them to use DW (and the steel tornado nightmare come back again)

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Xvorg wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

5.) You hit the nail on the head with this part, yep there is is serous lack of ranged stam abilities in the game and it a shame, magic builds have class skill lines and weapon skill lines to choose from stam builds have only ONE option and it the bow skill line. Heck Archers have no ranged ultimate all of them seem to be for magic or melee which is a real shame.

Have you played this game way back? When it was called "Elder robes online?" Stam builds weren't viable at all. People rioted on the forums about it until today were NBs have lots of stam morphs of melee skills. The devs don't have to make new skills they just need to tweak exciting ones to be more vaible for ranged combat in a game where melee combat is vastly superior. They could make a crossbow skill line, A long Bow skill line and short bow and go from there

You don’t play an archer build that's fine you probably don't care, but in othet ES games and Fantasy RPGs archery is a staple playstyle for a lot of people but in this game its lacking greatly because of bow design flaws.

All of this, especially the bolded.

Also, I don't understand how people are still trying to argue that bow isn't gimp and admitting that it is in the same sentence. "Yeah, it's gimpy unless you run a specific build but......it doesn't need to be fixed"

You have a skill that gives yoou minor berserk each time you attack from stealth. And trapping webs now an option for ranged builds, with a more than nice snare.

Instead of asking for a buff in the line, you should ask for skill that support the playing style, such as a stam version of agony, a stam version of obsidian shard, a stam version of rune. Templars have a stam version of jav, that stacks pretty well with poison injection or snipe.

Other option is a skill that allow archers to enter in stealth faster than other skill lines. Such passive or active skill would make archers life better.

But the major brut buff is not going to do anything for the archer playing style. It is going to make the bow the weapon stamblades use to get the MB buff before ambush, allowing them to use DW (and the steel tornado nightmare come back again)

1.) I asked for this change on the NB pts forums not to long ago I suggested that one of morhs cost stamina and deal disease dmg.

2.) With some thoughts about that buff you maybe right about that. But archers need a way to get it without using melee weapons but I do believe that NBs can just use a 2h instead and prebuff before a fight.

Vythri

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The passive Long Shots is supposed to make up for the lower weapon damage but all too often has little to no effect due to the inability to keep enemies at range. Gap closer's ensure that Melee can always keep themselves in range, where as there is no gap creator that can keep archers at range. The bow's damage is way to dependent upon this passive and it is way to significant, where as it will be completely negated for 90% of pvp battles, and 10-20% of PVE fights.

Some people will say Magnum Shot, but even that's a joke with a 10m cast range, and as soon as the melee CC breaks, you're ***, because they'll just gap close again and be CC immune.

Vythri

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

1.) It does make sense to use a 2h in every build since it gives a heal and major brutality but zos has make great changes to alleviate the need for one (DW has major brutality etc.) So asking for other ways to gain this buff shouldn't hurt you, it would open doors for build diversity.
Pure bow builds do complain about using a 2h in fact

The 2h skill is so good you gimp yourself not using it. Why? Why must every stam build be forced into using a 2h? Is this how zos wants stam builds to be? Every one use a 2h and have no build diversity? This isn't like an ES game to force certain weapons and playstyles on people to be competitive.

2.) No one wants bow dmg to increase all we ask is for the skills to be more reliable in combat.

Snipe sucks as a dps skill its a great opener from stealth but after that it's as lack luster as Crystal blast/Dark flare what's so hard about making this skill more efficient? Increasing the velocity(travel faster) would greatly help dps of course the dmg would need to be adjusted but players would have a harder time dodging it making it more inline with other ranged dps skills (force pulse, Swallow Soul) every ranged players knows that their dmg suffers because of ranged advantage, but you and I both Know That's BS.Spammable gap closers and the ease of melee combat compared to ranged combat makes this arguement invalid.

3.) everyone keeps saying that and we know thar potions are an option, but they cost gold and don't provide additional benefits that class buffs would have (rally heals, DW can bouce and hit targets, Surge can heal, Igneous weps grant both brutality and sorcery in adttions to earthenheart passives etc.)

I know it doesn't matter to you because you're probably a melee build so you have everything you need to funtion but it doesn't hurt to put a buff in the Fighter's guild skill line so that other weapons (bow/SnB) can have access to it

4.) As I said earlier ranged should deal less dmg in most MMOs this works out well except this one.....

There's absolutely NO risk playing a melee build just mash your face on crit rush/ambush and you not only close the gap, but you snare and deal quite a bit of dmg also remember they can be spammed.

So the ranged build has to kite with limited skills to do so in an environment where melee builds can close the gap when ever they want to while attempting to deal dmg with a slow cast time plus travel time skill (snipe) in a meta where burst dmg is the way to go.

Also mind you bow skills don't have buffs, like major brutality which increase dmg and healing so survivability is also lacking just because you decide to use a bow.

You say poison injection and exceute? Are you kidding me! The skill that templars purge off! Oh how about DKs healing through it? Sorcs will stack shields, NBs will cloak it off. Seriously though PI is not a threat.

You say Snipe hits as hard as Wreking Blow? What are you smoking? First of all you shouldn't even be getting hit by snipe, you have 3 seconds to dodge,block,refelct,LOS,and shield stack it plus an audio que.


5.) You hit the nail on the head with this part, yep there is is serous lack of ranged stam abilities in the game and it a shame, magic builds have class skill lines and weapon skill lines to choose from stam builds have only ONE option and it the bow skill line. Heck Archers have no ranged ultimate all of them seem to be for magic or melee which is a real shame.

Have you played this game way back? When it was called "Elder robes online?" Stam builds weren't viable at all. People rioted on the forums about it until today where NBs have lots of stam morphs of melee skills. The devs don't have to make new skills they just need to tweak exciting ones to be more vaible for ranged combat in a game where melee combat is vastly superior. They could make a crossbow skill line, A long Bow skill line and short bow and go from there.

You don’t play an archer build that's fine you probably don't care, but in other ES games and Fantasy RPGs archery is a staple playstyle for a lot of people but in this game its lacking greatly because of bow design flaws.

Just quoting this because it can't be stated enough times.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @Wrobel

Xvorg

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

5.) You hit the nail on the head with this part, yep there is is serous lack of ranged stam abilities in the game and it a shame, magic builds have class skill lines and weapon skill lines to choose from stam builds have only ONE option and it the bow skill line. Heck Archers have no ranged ultimate all of them seem to be for magic or melee which is a real shame.

Have you played this game way back? When it was called "Elder robes online?" Stam builds weren't viable at all. People rioted on the forums about it until today were NBs have lots of stam morphs of melee skills. The devs don't have to make new skills they just need to tweak exciting ones to be more vaible for ranged combat in a game where melee combat is vastly superior. They could make a crossbow skill line, A long Bow skill line and short bow and go from there

You don’t play an archer build that's fine you probably don't care, but in othet ES games and Fantasy RPGs archery is a staple playstyle for a lot of people but in this game its lacking greatly because of bow design flaws.

All of this, especially the bolded.

Also, I don't understand how people are still trying to argue that bow isn't gimp and admitting that it is in the same sentence. "Yeah, it's gimpy unless you run a specific build but......it doesn't need to be fixed"

You have a skill that gives yoou minor berserk each time you attack from stealth. And trapping webs now an option for ranged builds, with a more than nice snare.

Instead of asking for a buff in the line, you should ask for skill that support the playing style, such as a stam version of agony, a stam version of obsidian shard, a stam version of rune. Templars have a stam version of jav, that stacks pretty well with poison injection or snipe.

Other option is a skill that allow archers to enter in stealth faster than other skill lines. Such passive or active skill would make archers life better.

But the major brut buff is not going to do anything for the archer playing style. It is going to make the bow the weapon stamblades use to get the MB buff before ambush, allowing them to use DW (and the steel tornado nightmare come back again)

1.) I asked for this change on the NB pts forums not to long ago I suggested that one of morhs cost stamina and deal disease dmg.

2.) With some thoughts about that buff you maybe right about that. But archers need a way to get it without using melee weapons but I do believe that NBs can just use a 2h instead and prebuff before a fight.

I believe in efficient dmg rather than raw dmg. Why I don't like entropy despite the major sorc and empower buffs? Because it is an advice: now you block/dodgeroll.

Agony, on the other hand, especially prolonged suff, is a great skill. It allows you to fire a meteor in the head of an enemy, eating all the dmg, the cc and some ticks of the AoE it leaves. You can do more or less the same with assa will.

Technically a combo Snipe+ light + agony/crip grasp from a NB archer is possible and help you to keep the distance enough time for a second snipe or a poison inject. My archer DK did something similar soem time with stonefist (and recovered some stam). No need for major brut

masterbroodub17_ESO

Xvorg wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

5.) You hit the nail on the head with this part, yep there is is serous lack of ranged stam abilities in the game and it a shame, magic builds have class skill lines and weapon skill lines to choose from stam builds have only ONE option and it the bow skill line. Heck Archers have no ranged ultimate all of them seem to be for magic or melee which is a real shame.

Have you played this game way back? When it was called "Elder robes online?" Stam builds weren't viable at all. People rioted on the forums about it until today were NBs have lots of stam morphs of melee skills. The devs don't have to make new skills they just need to tweak exciting ones to be more vaible for ranged combat in a game where melee combat is vastly superior. They could make a crossbow skill line, A long Bow skill line and short bow and go from there

You don’t play an archer build that's fine you probably don't care, but in othet ES games and Fantasy RPGs archery is a staple playstyle for a lot of people but in this game its lacking greatly because of bow design flaws.

All of this, especially the bolded.

Also, I don't understand how people are still trying to argue that bow isn't gimp and admitting that it is in the same sentence. "Yeah, it's gimpy unless you run a specific build but......it doesn't need to be fixed"

You have a skill that gives yoou minor berserk each time you attack from stealth. And trapping webs now an option for ranged builds, with a more than nice snare.

Instead of asking for a buff in the line, you should ask for skill that support the playing style, such as a stam version of agony, a stam version of obsidian shard, a stam version of rune. Templars have a stam version of jav, that stacks pretty well with poison injection or snipe.

Other option is a skill that allow archers to enter in stealth faster than other skill lines. Such passive or active skill would make archers life better.

But the major brut buff is not going to do anything for the archer playing style. It is going to make the bow the weapon stamblades use to get the MB buff before ambush, allowing them to use DW (and the steel tornado nightmare come back again)

1.) I asked for this change on the NB pts forums not to long ago I suggested that one of morhs cost stamina and deal disease dmg.

2.) With some thoughts about that buff you maybe right about that. But archers need a way to get it without using melee weapons but I do believe that NBs can just use a 2h instead and prebuff before a fight.

I believe in efficient dmg rather than raw dmg. Why I don't like entropy despite the major sorc and empower buffs? Because it is an advice: now you block/dodgeroll.

Agony, on the other hand, especially prolonged suff, is a great skill. It allows you to fire a meteor in the head of an enemy, eating all the dmg, the cc and some ticks of the AoE it leaves. You can do more or less the same with assa will.

Technically a combo Snipe+ light + agony/crip grasp from a NB archer is possible and help you to keep the distance enough time for a second snipe or a poison inject. My archer DK did something similar soem time with stonefist (and recovered some stam). No need for major brut

Xvorg wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

5.) You hit the nail on the head with this part, yep there is is serous lack of ranged stam abilities in the game and it a shame, magic builds have class skill lines and weapon skill lines to choose from stam builds have only ONE option and it the bow skill line. Heck Archers have no ranged ultimate all of them seem to be for magic or melee which is a real shame.

Have you played this game way back? When it was called "Elder robes online?" Stam builds weren't viable at all. People rioted on the forums about it until today were NBs have lots of stam morphs of melee skills. The devs don't have to make new skills they just need to tweak exciting ones to be more vaible for ranged combat in a game where melee combat is vastly superior. They could make a crossbow skill line, A long Bow skill line and short bow and go from there

You don’t play an archer build that's fine you probably don't care, but in othet ES games and Fantasy RPGs archery is a staple playstyle for a lot of people but in this game its lacking greatly because of bow design flaws.

All of this, especially the bolded.

Also, I don't understand how people are still trying to argue that bow isn't gimp and admitting that it is in the same sentence. "Yeah, it's gimpy unless you run a specific build but......it doesn't need to be fixed"

You have a skill that gives yoou minor berserk each time you attack from stealth. And trapping webs now an option for ranged builds, with a more than nice snare.

Instead of asking for a buff in the line, you should ask for skill that support the playing style, such as a stam version of agony, a stam version of obsidian shard, a stam version of rune. Templars have a stam version of jav, that stacks pretty well with poison injection or snipe.

Other option is a skill that allow archers to enter in stealth faster than other skill lines. Such passive or active skill would make archers life better.

But the major brut buff is not going to do anything for the archer playing style. It is going to make the bow the weapon stamblades use to get the MB buff before ambush, allowing them to use DW (and the steel tornado nightmare come back again)

1.) I asked for this change on the NB pts forums not to long ago I suggested that one of morhs cost stamina and deal disease dmg.

2.) With some thoughts about that buff you maybe right about that. But archers need a way to get it without using melee weapons but I do believe that NBs can just use a 2h instead and prebuff before a fight.

I believe in efficient dmg rather than raw dmg. Why I don't like entropy despite the major sorc and empower buffs? Because it is an advice: now you block/dodgeroll.

Agony, on the other hand, especially prolonged suff, is a great skill. It allows you to fire a meteor in the head of an enemy, eating all the dmg, the cc and some ticks of the AoE it leaves. You can do more or less the same with assa will.

Technically a combo Snipe+ light + agony/crip grasp from a NB archer is possible and help you to keep the distance enough time for a second snipe or a poison inject. My archer DK did something similar soem time with stonefist (and recovered some stam). No need for major brut

None of this applies in PvE. And even in PvP it's still not very good compared to other options, at that point you might as well be ganking.

Anti_Virus

Vythri wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

1.) It does make sense to use a 2h in every build since it gives a heal and major brutality but zos has make great changes to alleviate the need for one (DW has major brutality etc.) So asking for other ways to gain this buff shouldn't hurt you, it would open doors for build diversity.
Pure bow builds do complain about using a 2h in fact

The 2h skill is so good you gimp yourself not using it. Why? Why must every stam build be forced into using a 2h? Is this how zos wants stam builds to be? Every one use a 2h and have no build diversity? This isn't like an ES game to force certain weapons and playstyles on people to be competitive.

2.) No one wants bow dmg to increase all we ask is for the skills to be more reliable in combat.

Snipe sucks as a dps skill its a great opener from stealth but after that it's as lack luster as Crystal blast/Dark flare what's so hard about making this skill more efficient? Increasing the velocity(travel faster) would greatly help dps of course the dmg would need to be adjusted but players would have a harder time dodging it making it more inline with other ranged dps skills (force pulse, Swallow Soul) every ranged players knows that their dmg suffers because of ranged advantage, but you and I both Know That's BS.Spammable gap closers and the ease of melee combat compared to ranged combat makes this arguement invalid.

3.) everyone keeps saying that and we know thar potions are an option, but they cost gold and don't provide additional benefits that class buffs would have (rally heals, DW can bouce and hit targets, Surge can heal, Igneous weps grant both brutality and sorcery in adttions to earthenheart passives etc.)

I know it doesn't matter to you because you're probably a melee build so you have everything you need to funtion but it doesn't hurt to put a buff in the Fighter's guild skill line so that other weapons (bow/SnB) can have access to it

4.) As I said earlier ranged should deal less dmg in most MMOs this works out well except this one.....

There's absolutely NO risk playing a melee build just mash your face on crit rush/ambush and you not only close the gap, but you snare and deal quite a bit of dmg also remember they can be spammed.

So the ranged build has to kite with limited skills to do so in an environment where melee builds can close the gap when ever they want to while attempting to deal dmg with a slow cast time plus travel time skill (snipe) in a meta where burst dmg is the way to go.

Also mind you bow skills don't have buffs, like major brutality which increase dmg and healing so survivability is also lacking just because you decide to use a bow.

You say poison injection and exceute? Are you kidding me! The skill that templars purge off! Oh how about DKs healing through it? Sorcs will stack shields, NBs will cloak it off. Seriously though PI is not a threat.

You say Snipe hits as hard as Wreking Blow? What are you smoking? First of all you shouldn't even be getting hit by snipe, you have 3 seconds to dodge,block,refelct,LOS,and shield stack it plus an audio que.


5.) You hit the nail on the head with this part, yep there is is serous lack of ranged stam abilities in the game and it a shame, magic builds have class skill lines and weapon skill lines to choose from stam builds have only ONE option and it the bow skill line. Heck Archers have no ranged ultimate all of them seem to be for magic or melee which is a real shame.

Have you played this game way back? When it was called "Elder robes online?" Stam builds weren't viable at all. People rioted on the forums about it until today where NBs have lots of stam morphs of melee skills. The devs don't have to make new skills they just need to tweak exciting ones to be more vaible for ranged combat in a game where melee combat is vastly superior. They could make a crossbow skill line, A long Bow skill line and short bow and go from there.

You don’t play an archer build that's fine you probably don't care, but in other ES games and Fantasy RPGs archery is a staple playstyle for a lot of people but in this game its lacking greatly because of bow design flaws.

Just quoting this because it can't be stated enough times.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler @Wrobel

Hopefully they read this this and take some notes.

Vythri

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Hopefully they read this this and take some notes.

They probably won't, but you gotta try. ZOS probably thinks like the other people in this thread that get incredibly offended at the idea of buffing a weapon/play style that's not nearly as competitive as all the rest.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Vythri wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Hopefully they read this this and take some notes.

They probably won't, but you gotta try. ZOS probably thinks like the other people in this thread that get incredibly offended at the idea of buffing a weapon/play style that's not nearly as competitive as all the rest.

It's odd that they even have a bow weapon if they did not intend for an archer playstyle to be relevant. Why not just remove the bow and make all stamina build melee in that case? Weird.

masterbroodub17_ESO

I could see myself dropping the topic entirely if we got an official ZoS employee to say: Yes we know, no we don't care. Then I can accept that bows will never be a viable main weapon and just drop my sub

Anti_Virus

Exactly I just want a dev to say that they won't make any changes/ think it's fine so I can go about my way.

In all honsety though they should just make bow a utility weapon like resto staff at this point.

Some_Guy

They'll make changes. Just not that one. And since we just had a major content update, it won't be anytime soon.
I never use the same weapon on both bars anyway. Nearly every build I've played uses different weapons to maximize the range of abilities available: destro/resto, 2H/bow, dual wield/bow, dual/resto, etc. The only time I've kept the same weapon on both bars was for an old magicka DK fire build that used fire staves on both bars.
I doubt any buff they may even consider giving to bow for brutality would be anything I'd consider using.

Bromburak

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Bow also doesn't have a spammable dps skill

2H has one (Dizzing swing/Wrecking Blow) also has CC built in

DW has one (Rapid strikes)

Destro staff has one(force pulse)

Bow has one (Nothing)

Sorry, you cannot expect every line is the same and ignore current trade offs.

A ranged skill like snipe for example is an outstanding opener but not available for other weapon lines.
Now what? You want the same skill copied to other weapon lines?

Bow is a great weapon line and statistically the most used opener out of stealth.
Do the math what that means in PvP within 2 seconds.

More ignorance, what "trade off" is there from bow to Detro staff and other weapons?

And you don't offer a solution for balance and diversity you just want every weapon line copied
and bascially do the same thing.

Anti_Virus

Some_Guy wrote: »

They'll make changes. Just not that one. And since we just had a major content update, it won't be anytime soon.
I never use the same weapon on both bars anyway. Nearly every build I've played uses different weapons to maximize the range of abilities available: destro/resto, 2H/bow, dual wield/bow, dual/resto, etc. The only time I've kept the same weapon on both bars was for an old magicka DK fire build that used fire staves on both bars.
I doubt any buff they may even consider giving to bow for brutality would be anything I'd consider using.

Well I run a DW/Bow build but I know people that want to just run a pure archer build without having to rely on melee weapons adding major brutality to FG would allivete the need for melee weapons with bows

Hopefully something the devs can be reasoned with in terms of bow changes although we had massive positive changes in past updates.

A few tweaks here and there should satisfy the archers in this game.

Some_Guy

Honestly, I think adding a minor brutality buff would be a super OP thing to do... And, depending on what the requirement for activating the buff, would more consider using that than a major brutality from bow.

Anti_Virus

@Some_Guy how would it be OP?

2H and DW have it and I think 2H is an OP weapon skill line.

Some_Guy

Because same buffs don't stack (major brutality with major brutality, major sorcery with major sorcery, etc) but major brutality would stack with minor (it's one of the ways DK can get higher weapon damage, and why an Orc stam sorc with bow is the fastest unmounted combo in the game). Use the major brutality of another buff (2h, dual wield, potion, etc) and the minor of a bow (which can already hit decent numbers when supported by a major brutality buff) and you would have extremely hard hitting abilities (I'm thinking mostly from a PvP perspective and how hard Focused Aim already hits for me, or how many people I've seen die to my Poison Injection DoT).

Some_Guy

As I said, I typically run 2 different weapons, so I rarely think of things from an angle of "same weapon on both bars" kind of deal.

Anti_Virus

Some_Guy wrote: »

Because same buffs don't stack (major brutality with major brutality, major sorcery with major sorcery, etc) but major brutality would stack with minor (it's one of the ways DK can get higher weapon damage, and why an Orc stam sorc with bow is the fastest unmounted combo in the game). Use the major brutality of another buff (2h, dual wield, potion, etc) and the minor of a bow (which can already hit decent numbers when supported by a major brutality buff) and you would have extremely hard hitting abilities (I'm thinking mostly from a PvP perspective and how hard Focused Aim already hits for me, or how many people I've seen die to my Poison Injection DoT).

Where did you get minor brutality from I don't think archers have accsess to it unless you're a DK using Igneous Weapons.

And snipe doesn't hit that hard man especially if you have impen or a dmg shield you can easily kill archers atm just gap close spam them to death.

Some_Guy

I was saying IF ZOS gave the bow minor brutality big. And you gotta time the snipes and choose your targets. I never choose targets with a shield up or if I know a player to be tanky, I'll choose a different method.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Some_Guy wrote: »

I was saying IF ZOS gave the bow minor brutality big. And you gotta time the snipes and choose your targets. I never choose targets with a shield up or if I know a player to be tanky, I'll choose a different method.

That's why it should be major brutality. Then your whole worry is solved.

Xvorg

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Some_Guy wrote: »

I was saying IF ZOS gave the bow minor brutality big. And you gotta time the snipes and choose your targets. I never choose targets with a shield up or if I know a player to be tanky, I'll choose a different method.

That's why it should be major brutality. Then your whole worry is solved.

Again... Major brut is not going to do anything for archers.

Just look at the DKs and Sorcs with a bow. Do they do moar dmg than a NB with a bow?

Inceasing the range of scatter shot is a good move. Increasing the bonus of long shots to a 15% dmg is another good move (paired to the range increase of scatter). Major brut in a bow is a wrong move, because it is not goid to do any important difference and is only going to address glass cannons stacking wpn dmg to get an interesting increase.

Major brut is going to leave only 2 usable skills for bow: poison arrow and snipe. Arrow spray is going to be pointless, scatter shot is going to be even more pointless and volley is going to be useful only if you have a maelstrom bow.

Bow needs more flavor and the major brut buff is not going to give anything of it

Anti_Virus

Some_Guy wrote: »

As I said, I typically run 2 different weapons, so I rarely think of things from an angle of "same weapon on both bars" kind of deal.

Xvorg wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Some_Guy wrote: »

I was saying IF ZOS gave the bow minor brutality big. And you gotta time the snipes and choose your targets. I never choose targets with a shield up or if I know a player to be tanky, I'll choose a different method.

That's why it should be major brutality. Then your whole worry is solved.

Again... Major brut is not going to do anything for archers.

Just look at the DKs and Sorcs with a bow. Do they do moar dmg than a NB with a bow?

Inceasing the range of scatter shot is a good move. Increasing the bonus of long shots to a 15% dmg is another good move (paired to the range increase of scatter). Major brut in a bow is a wrong move, because it is not goid to do any important difference and is only going to address glass cannons stacking wpn dmg to get an interesting increase.

Major brut is going to leave only 2 usable skills for bow: poison arrow and snipe. Arrow spray is going to be pointless, scatter shot is going to be even more pointless and volley is going to be useful only if you have a maelstrom bow.

Bow needs more flavor and the major brut buff is not going to give anything of it

Imo bow needs these changes:

-Increase the velocity of snipe (to match poison arrows travel time of .7 sec) Obviously the dmg would neeed to be adjusted to compensate.
This change would make snipe a more sustained dps skill and less of a burst inta gib dps skill.

-Increase the range of draining shot and specifically this morph only yo about 20m or more so that this CC makes sense right now its terrible since gap closers can be used from 22m away.

-put major brutality in FG skill line it would help classes that don't have acess to it and certain builds like bow/bow and bow/SnB

That's it after that bow would be a much better dps weapon skill line. Remember the devs did make a ton of bow changes but just a few tweaks would vastly increase bow's dps role.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Xvorg wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Some_Guy wrote: »

I was saying IF ZOS gave the bow minor brutality big. And you gotta time the snipes and choose your targets. I never choose targets with a shield up or if I know a player to be tanky, I'll choose a different method.

That's why it should be major brutality. Then your whole worry is solved.

Again... Major brut is not going to do anything for archers.

Just look at the DKs and Sorcs with a bow. Do they do moar dmg than a NB with a bow?

Inceasing the range of scatter shot is a good move. Increasing the bonus of long shots to a 15% dmg is another good move (paired to the range increase of scatter). Major brut in a bow is a wrong move, because it is not goid to do any important difference and is only going to address glass cannons stacking wpn dmg to get an interesting increase.

Major brut is going to leave only 2 usable skills for bow: poison arrow and snipe. Arrow spray is going to be pointless, scatter shot is going to be even more pointless and volley is going to be useful only if you have a maelstrom bow.

Bow needs more flavor and the major brut buff is not going to give anything of it

True, I was just addressing the specific question about the buff in that instance.

Vangy

@ShadowStarKing @masterbroodub17_ESO

Ok now im truly confused. Initially I thought this thread was about making bow more viable as a ranged DPS option. I don't see what major brutality has to do with it...... Like 99.99% of builds use 1 main DPS weapon and 1 buff bar weapon.... Like taking most stamina toons they use --> 1 buff bar and 1 damage bar. Normally bow bar is for buffs and utility while melee bar is DPS.

You can swap this around to make 2h/DW a buff bar while bow becomes a main bar the same way a DK might use igneous on his bow bar then swap over to his DW to DPS. For bow you can use rally or igneous etc on your melee bar and swap back to bow for DPS.

I think we are all getting sidetracked here. I don't care about major brutality being available to bow cos I can get it from other places no probs. What I AM mildly concerned about is that bow just straight up SUCKS as a main DPS weapon. Im okay with doing maybe 20% less than melee builds but on my stam melee DK I can do 50k DPS with good raid buffs and bow only pulls like 30k..... That's almost a 40% loss in damage.

The single most glaring problem with bow is that snipe is good for opening bursts but falls severely short in terms of a main spammable...

Arguing about major brutality is just useless imo... Heck most end game builds dont even slot major brutality or major sorcery on their bars... They prefer to get it from pots. I know I do. Every time I cast rally that's 1+ seconds of me not doing DPS. Every 1 second my Rapid strikes can do well over 15k crits... That's a 15k damage being lost to my overall damage done every time I cast rally. Over a 1+ minute fight, that's 3 recasts of rally and that's a 45k damage lost... That's 3 times my DPS rotation needs to be held up to buff. That will result in an even larger DPS loss. If you want to min max you are going to use pots period.

The question we should be asking is what needs to be done to make bow a viable single target option. I think magnum shot, one morph can be change to remove all the knockbacks etc while making it a spammable that applies crit damage buff. Coupled with rearming trap (make sure magnum buff and trap buff stackz) and arrow hail + other class based DOTS/poison injection, this could actually make bow pull around 35-40k DPS which I would be VERY happy with. I would also not mind slotting 2h on off bar for major brutality in case im low on potions etc.

These proposed changes will also have minimal effect in PvP. No one is going to use trap in PvP and magnum shot without utility is nothing compared to other spammables like dizzying or RS even with crit damage buff since crit sucks in general in PvP. This also takes NOTHING away from people who like to use one or the other morphs of snipe. One has healing debuff and one has armour debuff and most likely, people would complain if we took one morph away from them.

My humble 2 centz.