Still no brutality for Bow?

psychotic13

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

If you're a sorc or DK it's not so bad because they have class skills which do the same thing. But yeah I know what you mean I wanted to run Bow/DW on my Nightblade, but I can't as the 2h and rally is to valuable as an archer I need to buff up from range.

Actually DW has Hidden blade which grants major brutality and can be used from 20 meters

True, but it's a lot more beneficial being able to buff up before you enter combat.

Anti_Virus

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

No they don't care and the community doesn't really care either all stam builds back bar bow, so as long is a functions as a great utility weapon it doesn't really matter.

people that want bow buffs are in the minority which is usually ignored.

This is unfortunately very true. In general most stamina back bar bow and don't want anything that might nerf the massive utility they gain from it. While there is a significant population that think that players wanting to run bow builds are RP noobs. [/quote]

I'm currently playing a game that has good bow play black desert because at this point bow will always be a utility weapon.

Vythri

It's kinda sad because the fixes don't have to be many, and don't have to screw over people that only want to use Bow for their back bar utility weapon.

Rework some passives like I said before, reduce the flight time (not cast time) of Snipe, and increase the range of Draining Shot and fix it's heal to be more reliable (a DoT and not tied to actually CC'ing somebody).

Acsvf

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Acsvf wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.

Potions are an option, unless that 'doesn't make sense'.

Potions are a liability.

Regardless of whether or not this is true, it is irrelevant to my post given the statement I was responding to.

Anti_Virus

Acsvf wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Acsvf wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.

Potions are an option, unless that 'doesn't make sense'.

Potions are a liability.

Regardless of whether or not this is true, it is irrelevant to my post given the statement I was responding to.

How is it irrelevant? You stated potions are an option which they are, but must be purchased and consumed while the the 2h skill 'rally' can be used indefinitely with no cost and additionally grants a heal.

This is a problem because it leaves 2h as the only reliable option for major brutality buff outside of combat that synergies with the bow.

Acsvf

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

How is it irrelevant? You stated potions are an option which they are, but must be purchased and consumed while the the 2h skill 'rally' can be used indefinitely with no cost and additionally grants a heal.
This is a problem because it leaves 2h as the only reliable option for major brutality buff outside of combat that synergies with the bow.

I pointed out that nightblades using a bow did have access to a self cast major brutality buff.
Maybe it is a problem, but my point stands. I have taken no stance on the topic.

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.

Vangy

If this is regarding PvE, most stam meta builds are running DW/bow. That means most of them also do not have access to major brutality (no dont even mention flying blade lol. Its a waste of a slot and a dps loss especially with mael daggers).
They use pots to get their brutality or Dks can use igneous etc etc.

The other thing to note is that time spent re-buffing in a fight, is time not spent dps-ing. It always results in a DPS loss. So most end game top tier raiders are using potions. For stam, the most basic one you can have is blessed thistle + Dragon thorn. Both of these are ridiculously cheap. Ive seen stacks of 100 go for like 5-7k. So on average each pot with alchemy maxed would cost u --> about 35g + cost of lorkhans tears.

I know this has not much to do with the non-viability of bows in end game, but I just thought id throw this out there as giving bow major brutality wont fix anything since most builds are already dropping major brutality/sorcery in favour of pots to push the realm of DPS parses even farther.

Vythri

Vangy wrote: »

If this is regarding PvE, most stam meta builds are running DW/bow. That means most of them also do not have access to major brutality (no dont even mention flying blade lol. Its a waste of a slot and a dps loss especially with mael daggers).
They use pots to get their brutality or Dks can use igneous etc etc.

The other thing to note is that time spent re-buffing in a fight, is time not spent dps-ing. It always results in a DPS loss. So most end game top tier raiders are using potions. For stam, the most basic one you can have is blessed thistle + Dragon thorn. Both of these are ridiculously cheap. Ive seen stacks of 100 go for like 5-7k. So on average each pot with alchemy maxed would cost u --> about 35g + cost of lorkhans tears.

I know this has not much to do with the non-viability of bows in end game, but I just thought id throw this out there as giving bow major brutality wont fix anything since most builds are already dropping major brutality/sorcery in favour of pots to push the realm of DPS parses even farther.

That's why I think it would be an interesting change to change the Long Shots passive to instead apply Major Brutality on bow attacks over 15m (range can vary for balance) for a set amount of time (5-10 sec?). It would give Bow users a way to up their DPS without having to buff up with an actual skill, and it would promote pure Bow builds because you wouldn't get the passive if you then engaged in melee combat. You would have to move that passive to the last passive in the skill tree though.

Wollust

Pure bow builds are non viable anyway. Crap DPS, crap in PvP (except for certain gank builds, utility and bombard spam). Why bother with it? Plus the fact that there is no logical reason to run the very same weapon on both bars (except for S&B I guess) anyway. Just gimping yourself that way.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Wollust wrote: »

Pure bow builds are non viable anyway. Crap DPS, crap in PvP (except for certain gank builds, utility and bombard spam). Why bother with it? Plus the fact that there is no logical reason to run the very same weapon on both bars (except for S&B I guess) anyway. Just gimping yourself that way.

*whoosh*
That was the sound of the point of this thread going right over your head.

Wollust

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Pure bow builds are non viable anyway. Crap DPS, crap in PvP (except for certain gank builds, utility and bombard spam). Why bother with it? Plus the fact that there is no logical reason to run the very same weapon on both bars (except for S&B I guess) anyway. Just gimping yourself that way.

*whoosh*
That was the sound of the point of this thread going right over your head.

Alright let me put it like this: What is the point of letting every weapon provide the same buffs? Kinda boring isn't it? You have a stealth buff via rally, you have an offensive buff via flying dagger. I wouldn't want or need any more major brutality buff on neither bow nor sword and shield for the price of a passive or secondary effect or whatever.

As others have said, you can stil use potions if you so desperately want a pure bow build.
The game may advertise play how you want, but that doesn't mean you'll be equally effective across all builds and weapon choices.

Vythri

Wollust wrote: »

Pure bow builds are non viable anyway. Crap DPS, crap in PvP (except for certain gank builds, utility and bombard spam). Why bother with it? Plus the fact that there is no logical reason to run the very same weapon on both bars (except for S&B I guess) anyway. Just gimping yourself that way.

The DPS thing in PvE has been debated in other threads, but if performed properly with the right gear, the DPS actually isn't terrible. In PvP, Bow builds wouldn't be crap if you only had a couple minor tweaks, like I had already said. Clearly it's not good now, or there would be no need for this thread. The whole point is to discuss what needs to be done to make it not crap, and to promote a legit ranged build that doesn't just get face rolled all the time, but isn't OP either.

It's all well and good to say you won't be equally effective across all builds and weapon choices, but right now there IS NO ranged weapon choice if you actually want to do anything other than gank. The difference isn't between being equally effective or not, it's between it being even an option or not. Giving Bow a Major Brutality buff is one step, and only one step, toward that goal.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Wollust wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Pure bow builds are non viable anyway. Crap DPS, crap in PvP (except for certain gank builds, utility and bombard spam). Why bother with it? Plus the fact that there is no logical reason to run the very same weapon on both bars (except for S&B I guess) anyway. Just gimping yourself that way.

*whoosh*
That was the sound of the point of this thread going right over your head.

Alright let me put it like this: What is the point of letting every weapon provide the same buffs? Kinda boring isn't it? You have a stealth buff via rally, you have an offensive buff via flying dagger. I wouldn't want or need any more major brutality buff on neither bow nor sword and shield for the price of a passive or secondary effect or whatever.

As others have said, you can stil use potions if you so desperately want a pure bow build.
The game may advertise play how you want, but that doesn't mean you'll be equally effective across all builds and weapon choices.

So basically you don't care because you don't want to main a bow, congrats. The fact that you remarked the way you did the first time demonstrates the need for a buff.

You can't say "Bow is gimp, git gud nub" and then say "Bow is fine, it doesn't need a buff".

Xvorg

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

Dreugh King Slayer Set? Pots? Grouping with stam DK?

saving money for that one now

Xvorg

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@masterbroodub17_ESO

Don't bother making these threads Zos ignores them and people don't care. Bow is like the resto staff skill line for stam builds its a support weapon and you only have two options:

support your group in PVP or One shot gank people.

One shot ganking isn't a problem to most people except for @Axorn since he doesn't use impen, but for the most part battle spirit + hardy CP+ impen/dmg shields + radiant magelight + gap closers + slow travel time = weak snipes.

Has the Dev team EVER addressed this at all? Certainly not in the amount of time I've been playing. It seems like this is hot on a lot of other people's minds as well.

No they don't care and the community doesn't really care either all stam builds back bar bow, so as long is a functions as a great utility weapon it doesn't really matter.

people that want bow buffs are in the minority which is usually ignored.

That's unfortunate. The fact that no other weapon/class combination goes without its major damage buff (in a manner that makes sense) is just prejudicial for no real reason.

Put another way, a melee build with any class has access to major brutality in a way that fits that playstyle from multiple sources. Dragon knights can even give it to other people!
Hell, even ranged DPS as a sorcerer provides major brutality from multiple sources!
Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.
It's really that simple.

major brutality <<<<<<<<<<<< empower
Major brutality <<<<<<<<<<<< minor berserk

As simple as that. Increasing your wpn dmg (or spell dmg inn the case of major sorc) won't increase your dmg output as much as people believe, because that increase is non lineal. It is not a 20% extra dmg, is just a 20% exta in the calculation.

IMHO minor berserk is way better since it increase an 8% the dmg done and that's affected by crits. Major brutality does not work directly on crits as minor berserk does.

So, any attack done after grim focus and an empower (through mages guild or through ambush) is a 28% stronger. A 10k attack will become a 12.8k attack. A 20K attack will turn into a 25.6 K attack.

Major brutality and major sorc hardly get those numbers on their own.

Anyway, the meta in PvP is moving from high output to effective high output. A clean hit is way better than a extremely hard hit that's blocked, absorved or dodged

Toc de Malsvi

Vythri wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Pure bow builds are non viable anyway. Crap DPS, crap in PvP (except for certain gank builds, utility and bombard spam). Why bother with it? Plus the fact that there is no logical reason to run the very same weapon on both bars (except for S&B I guess) anyway. Just gimping yourself that way.

The DPS thing in PvE has been debated in other threads, but if performed properly with the right gear, the DPS actually isn't terrible. In PvP, Bow builds wouldn't be crap if you only had a couple minor tweaks, like I had already said. Clearly it's not good now, or there would be no need for this thread. The whole point is to discuss what needs to be done to make it not crap, and to promote a legit ranged build that doesn't just get face rolled all the time, but isn't OP either.

It's all well and good to say you won't be equally effective across all builds and weapon choices, but right now there IS NO ranged weapon choice if you actually want to do anything other than gank. The difference isn't between being equally effective or not, it's between it being even an option or not. Giving Bow a Major Brutality buff is one step, and only one step, toward that goal.

THIS^ I heart this so much.

I have argued as much on these forums tons of times and it all boils down to: "You don't need to be stronger you just need to either gank or just use the bow on your back bar for buffs." Which I could just as easily claim that Heavy Armor doesn't need buffs because it works fine for tanking in PVE and you don't need it you can just tank npc's in Cyrodiil or not use it.

The entire argument surrounds a passive belief in so many players that Bow is and should be a substandard weapon. It's an entitlement attitude of: "just be glad we let you gank." The Synergy that the bow offers to other weapon builds is incomparable to what other weapons offer for the bow.

Toc de Malsvi

Xvorg wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@masterbroodub17_ESO

Don't bother making these threads Zos ignores them and people don't care. Bow is like the resto staff skill line for stam builds its a support weapon and you only have two options:

support your group in PVP or One shot gank people.

One shot ganking isn't a problem to most people except for @Axorn since he doesn't use impen, but for the most part battle spirit + hardy CP+ impen/dmg shields + radiant magelight + gap closers + slow travel time = weak snipes.

Has the Dev team EVER addressed this at all? Certainly not in the amount of time I've been playing. It seems like this is hot on a lot of other people's minds as well.

No they don't care and the community doesn't really care either all stam builds back bar bow, so as long is a functions as a great utility weapon it doesn't really matter.

people that want bow buffs are in the minority which is usually ignored.

That's unfortunate. The fact that no other weapon/class combination goes without its major damage buff (in a manner that makes sense) is just prejudicial for no real reason.

Put another way, a melee build with any class has access to major brutality in a way that fits that playstyle from multiple sources. Dragon knights can even give it to other people!
Hell, even ranged DPS as a sorcerer provides major brutality from multiple sources!
Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.
It's really that simple.

major brutality <<<<<<<<<<<< empower
Major brutality <<<<<<<<<<<< minor berserk

As simple as that. Increasing your wpn dmg (or spell dmg inn the case of major sorc) won't increase your dmg output as much as people believe, because that increase is non lineal. It is not a 20% extra dmg, is just a 20% exta in the calculation.

IMHO minor berserk is way better since it increase an 8% the dmg done and that's affected by crits. Major brutality does not work directly on crits as minor berserk does.

So, any attack done after grim focus and an empower (through mages guild or through ambush) is a 28% stronger. A 10k attack will become a 12.8k attack. A 20K attack will turn into a 25.6 K attack.

Major brutality and major sorc hardly get those numbers on their own.

Anyway, the meta in PvP is moving from high output to effective high output. A clean hit is way better than a extremely hard hit that's blocked, absorved or dodged

I would argue that because Empower requires another skill be activated in order to proc every time, that in most cases Empower < Major Brutality as you get the buff for 30-45s and before needing to refresh. I do not disagree though about minor berserk and that skill plus passive buff from NB tree's constantly digs into my head making me want to dump my long time DK archer main for a NB archer.

Vythri

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Pure bow builds are non viable anyway. Crap DPS, crap in PvP (except for certain gank builds, utility and bombard spam). Why bother with it? Plus the fact that there is no logical reason to run the very same weapon on both bars (except for S&B I guess) anyway. Just gimping yourself that way.

*whoosh*
That was the sound of the point of this thread going right over your head.

Alright let me put it like this: What is the point of letting every weapon provide the same buffs? Kinda boring isn't it? You have a stealth buff via rally, you have an offensive buff via flying dagger. I wouldn't want or need any more major brutality buff on neither bow nor sword and shield for the price of a passive or secondary effect or whatever.

As others have said, you can stil use potions if you so desperately want a pure bow build.
The game may advertise play how you want, but that doesn't mean you'll be equally effective across all builds and weapon choices.

So basically you don't care because you don't want to main a bow, congrats. The fact that you remarked the way you did the first time demonstrates the need for a buff.

You can't say "Bow is gimp, git gud nub" and then say "Bow is fine, it doesn't need a buff".

What the hell are you even talking about? Lol. I literally never said or implied any or those things.

The DPS in PvE is fine, but you have to slot a 2H or use pots to achieve it, along with using the proper gear (like vMA Bow). The point of this thread is to come up with ways where you don't have to do that allowing for more build flexibility.

Then in PvP bow is only used as a ganking weapon, or to support a melee build. Again, giving Bow a way to get major brutality through the Bow skill line is one of the fixes that need to be employed to make it viable in more situations. This reflects back upon the reason for this thread.

Give Bow a way to get Major Brutality. I provided one potential fix. Also fix Draining Shot's heal to be a Dot that's guaranteed regardless of applying the CC or not and increase its range to be in line with every single other ranged CC in the game. Finally change the flight duration of Snipe (not the cast time) to make it easier to hit your targets in PvP, because any good player either dodge rolls out of it or reflects it back at you. But I digress because that's not what this thread was intended for. It was only to discuss the reason why Bow should have access to Major Brutality inside the skill line.


Edit: My bad. On my phone and didn't realize you weren't even talking to me lol. I'll still leave my post though.

Xvorg

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@masterbroodub17_ESO

Don't bother making these threads Zos ignores them and people don't care. Bow is like the resto staff skill line for stam builds its a support weapon and you only have two options:

support your group in PVP or One shot gank people.

One shot ganking isn't a problem to most people except for @Axorn since he doesn't use impen, but for the most part battle spirit + hardy CP+ impen/dmg shields + radiant magelight + gap closers + slow travel time = weak snipes.

Has the Dev team EVER addressed this at all? Certainly not in the amount of time I've been playing. It seems like this is hot on a lot of other people's minds as well.

No they don't care and the community doesn't really care either all stam builds back bar bow, so as long is a functions as a great utility weapon it doesn't really matter.

people that want bow buffs are in the minority which is usually ignored.

That's unfortunate. The fact that no other weapon/class combination goes without its major damage buff (in a manner that makes sense) is just prejudicial for no real reason.

Put another way, a melee build with any class has access to major brutality in a way that fits that playstyle from multiple sources. Dragon knights can even give it to other people!
Hell, even ranged DPS as a sorcerer provides major brutality from multiple sources!
Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.
It's really that simple.

major brutality <<<<<<<<<<<< empower
Major brutality <<<<<<<<<<<< minor berserk

As simple as that. Increasing your wpn dmg (or spell dmg inn the case of major sorc) won't increase your dmg output as much as people believe, because that increase is non lineal. It is not a 20% extra dmg, is just a 20% exta in the calculation.

IMHO minor berserk is way better since it increase an 8% the dmg done and that's affected by crits. Major brutality does not work directly on crits as minor berserk does.

So, any attack done after grim focus and an empower (through mages guild or through ambush) is a 28% stronger. A 10k attack will become a 12.8k attack. A 20K attack will turn into a 25.6 K attack.

Major brutality and major sorc hardly get those numbers on their own.

Anyway, the meta in PvP is moving from high output to effective high output. A clean hit is way better than a extremely hard hit that's blocked, absorved or dodged

I would argue that because Empower requires another skill be activated in order to proc every time, that in most cases Empower < Major Brutality as you get the buff for 30-45s and before needing to refresh. I do not disagree though about minor berserk and that skill plus passive buff from NB tree's constantly digs into my head making me want to dump my long time DK archer main for a NB archer.

though I agree in empower problem (too short) I can say that the buff is waaay stronger. I've considered slotting mageblade on my bar just to get the effect, but, as you said, you need to "weave" it every tiime you want to use it. Maybe a DK or sorc having major brut and mageblade as buff, using only heavy attacks/snipes could make it work.

minor berserk, and especially grim focus is one of the key skills for every ranged NB, whether you are stam or mag.

There's a video of a ganker who used a heavy attack with a bow right after ambush. I've been thinking about that build since some months. I imagine something like

camo hunter/relentless focus/ambush/cloak/mark target U FDB (extra wpn dmg)

But I'm too lazy to try it xD

Vythri

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I would argue that because Empower requires another skill be activated in order to proc every time, that in most cases Empower < Major Brutality as you get the buff for 30-45s and before needing to refresh. I do not disagree though about minor berserk and that skill plus passive buff from NB tree's constantly digs into my head making me want to dump my long time DK archer main for a NB archer.

You don't need to be a NB anymore to get Minor Berserk. Just slot Camo Hunter. Granted, it's not a pre-fight buff like NB has.

Toc de Malsvi

Xvorg wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@masterbroodub17_ESO

Don't bother making these threads Zos ignores them and people don't care. Bow is like the resto staff skill line for stam builds its a support weapon and you only have two options:

support your group in PVP or One shot gank people.

One shot ganking isn't a problem to most people except for @Axorn since he doesn't use impen, but for the most part battle spirit + hardy CP+ impen/dmg shields + radiant magelight + gap closers + slow travel time = weak snipes.

Has the Dev team EVER addressed this at all? Certainly not in the amount of time I've been playing. It seems like this is hot on a lot of other people's minds as well.

No they don't care and the community doesn't really care either all stam builds back bar bow, so as long is a functions as a great utility weapon it doesn't really matter.

people that want bow buffs are in the minority which is usually ignored.

That's unfortunate. The fact that no other weapon/class combination goes without its major damage buff (in a manner that makes sense) is just prejudicial for no real reason.

Put another way, a melee build with any class has access to major brutality in a way that fits that playstyle from multiple sources. Dragon knights can even give it to other people!
Hell, even ranged DPS as a sorcerer provides major brutality from multiple sources!
Nightblades using a bow have 0 access to a ranged or self-cast major brutality buff that makes sense.
It's really that simple.

major brutality <<<<<<<<<<<< empower
Major brutality <<<<<<<<<<<< minor berserk

As simple as that. Increasing your wpn dmg (or spell dmg inn the case of major sorc) won't increase your dmg output as much as people believe, because that increase is non lineal. It is not a 20% extra dmg, is just a 20% exta in the calculation.

IMHO minor berserk is way better since it increase an 8% the dmg done and that's affected by crits. Major brutality does not work directly on crits as minor berserk does.

So, any attack done after grim focus and an empower (through mages guild or through ambush) is a 28% stronger. A 10k attack will become a 12.8k attack. A 20K attack will turn into a 25.6 K attack.

Major brutality and major sorc hardly get those numbers on their own.

Anyway, the meta in PvP is moving from high output to effective high output. A clean hit is way better than a extremely hard hit that's blocked, absorved or dodged

I would argue that because Empower requires another skill be activated in order to proc every time, that in most cases Empower < Major Brutality as you get the buff for 30-45s and before needing to refresh. I do not disagree though about minor berserk and that skill plus passive buff from NB tree's constantly digs into my head making me want to dump my long time DK archer main for a NB archer.

though I agree in empower problem (too short) I can say that the buff is waaay stronger. I've considered slotting mageblade on my bar just to get the effect, but, as you said, you need to "weave" it every tiime you want to use it. Maybe a DK or sorc having major brut and mageblade as buff, using only heavy attacks/snipes could make it work.

minor berserk, and especially grim focus is one of the key skills for every ranged NB, whether you are stam or mag.

There's a video of a ganker who used a heavy attack with a bow right after ambush. I've been thinking about that build since some months. I imagine something like

camo hunter/relentless focus/ambush/cloak/mark target U FDB (extra wpn dmg)

But I'm too lazy to try it xD

@Xvorg
I've tried, you lose too much time activating it. Heavy attacks on the DK are bigger than snipes but barely and you have to do fully charged heavies which is where it loses in dps. Snipe has a long flight time but only 1s cast time where as fully charged heavies have basically a 2+ second cast time meaning outside of initial openings you can always do more dps using snipe.

You can get closer by using a fully charged heavy weaved with something like SilverShards but it still falls well short. Weaving fully charged heavies with snipes comes out roughly the same on a DK which is good for resources and that's about it. I would really like my old Molten Armorment's buff back that would make heavies worth while again.

As far as PVP using fully charged heavies + empower works to an extent, for ganking its great but otherwise it is rather weak and takes a lot of setup. Heavies fly to slowly and are way to easy to dodge, with just a little bit of lag players become unhittable. I made a video of me ganking a guy where I charged a heavy attack from stealth and released followed by Poison injection, the Poison Injection hit him and he hit DK wings and my heavy attack hit me.

MrTarkanian48

Too be fair, Destro and Resto (the other ranged weapons) do not have access to Major Sorcery either.

They do have access to it via Entropy.

I do not understand why they could not have tweaked one of the FG abilities to provide Major Brutility, like Expert Hunter. Especially due to the fact that alot of FG abilities are worthless now.

Toc de Malsvi

https://account.xbox.com/en-us/gameclip/e0d6d7ad-8a3a-4ff7-b70a-19953fd749d6?gamerTag=Toc de Malsvii&amp;scid=03a80100-9ff3-46ea-be76-e00e7fe465df

Toc de Malsvi

For reference the guy I'm shooting at on the ice is in England and plays on NA server, he never gets better than 300ms ping yet with just 30 seconds or so practice he had no trouble dodging every fully charged heavy attack I released. The video was to highlight times where the game plays sound and animations as if you had hit but claimed the attack was dodged.

Toc de Malsvi

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Too be fair, Destro and Resto (the other ranged weapons) do not have access to Major Sorcery either.

They do have access to it via Entropy.

I do not understand why they could not have tweaked one of the FG abilities to provide Major Brutility, like Expert Hunter. Especially due to the fact that alot of FG abilities are worthless now.

Edit: just noticed the second half of your comment, and that is really a very fair point because FG got nerfed as much as it was buffed by passives.

Toc de Malsvi

Vythri wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I would argue that because Empower requires another skill be activated in order to proc every time, that in most cases Empower < Major Brutality as you get the buff for 30-45s and before needing to refresh. I do not disagree though about minor berserk and that skill plus passive buff from NB tree's constantly digs into my head making me want to dump my long time DK archer main for a NB archer.

You don't need to be a NB anymore to get Minor Berserk. Just slot Camo Hunter. Granted, it's not a pre-fight buff like NB has.

@Vythri
You only get it for 5s on critical's from stealth, they "fixed" it because it was giving bonus on critical's from crouch which they claim was unintended. Which means a slight buff to ganker's who didn't quite finish the target.

Vythri

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Too be fair, Destro and Resto (the other ranged weapons) do not have access to Major Sorcery either.

They do have access to it via Entropy.

I do not understand why they could not have tweaked one of the FG abilities to provide Major Brutility, like Expert Hunter. Especially due to the fact that alot of FG abilities are worthless now.

That would also be a good alternative. Change Evil Hunter to provide Major Brutality instead of reducing the cost of abilities.

Vythri

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I would argue that because Empower requires another skill be activated in order to proc every time, that in most cases Empower < Major Brutality as you get the buff for 30-45s and before needing to refresh. I do not disagree though about minor berserk and that skill plus passive buff from NB tree's constantly digs into my head making me want to dump my long time DK archer main for a NB archer.

You don't need to be a NB anymore to get Minor Berserk. Just slot Camo Hunter. Granted, it's not a pre-fight buff like NB has.

@Vythri
You only get it for 5s on critical's from stealth, they "fixed" it because it was giving bonus on critical's from crouch which they claim was unintended. Which means a slight buff to ganker's who didn't quite finish the target.

Yeah, it's clearly not ideal.

Serenityx

I agree, bows need something more. The only ability that really does enough damage to be concerned with this is Snipe, and that is balanced by the fact that it has a cast time as well as the sometimes buggy LoS mechanic in this game.

MrTarkanian48

I feel like their should be a Fighters guild ability that gives Major Brutality to be inline with Mages guild.

But I don't think they need to add it to bow, because then there will be QQ about no Major Sorcery for Destro/Resto.

I don't think too many people push for bow to be a double-bar weapon, because in this game very few builds double bar the same weapon, other than PVE tanks.

There are also just a lot of trade-offs between classes on both Magic and Stamina builds

For example, if you were a Stam Sorc or Stam DK, you have access to Major Brutality within your class, so you are not necessarily hand-cuffed to 2H. They could double bar bow if they wanted to, but then they lack the gap closer and other skills that NB has. They also don't have a spammable damage class skill.

A magic NB is pretty much tied to resto staff for healing ward, whereas a Magic Templar has more freedom to run DW/Destro due to BoL. Also many magic builds need to waste a slot on Entropy, which really has no other purpose than to give Major Sorcery, and you need to sacrifice any element of surprise to activate it. Whereas Rally provides the ability to buff from stealth, and provides a strong heal if timed properly.

Stam NB has a lot going for it in PVP. If you let them double bar bow, make it on par with melee damage, add that to their already high damage passives, and allow them to have the strongest escape mechanics, you start to get into OP territitory.

I also think they make ranged weapons slightly weaker because as a tradeoff to standing back and hitting people from far away, they don't think you should be doing the equivalent amount of damage that someone who takes the risk of getting up close and personal does. If they gap close on you, and you don't have an answer for that, than IMO that is an issue with your build. Gap closers/melee fighting are a part of the game. Also you are going to want to have an answer for DK wings, Templar Eclipse, etc.

Yes, Snipe is dodgeable, but so are most ranged Magic abilities (except Radiant which really blows as a stam build). Snipe also has a one of the highest non-ultimate damage coefficients in the game (Even higher than Wrecking Blow), and hits like a truck, so it makes sense that it takes some timing and planning to increase its chances to land a hit. I'd be more than annoyed if they tweaked c-frags so that it was almost unavoidable, because if you don't avoid it, you get nuked. Its the same with Snipe.

Meta's emerge because players figure out the optimal set-up for a class. In the case of the Stamina NB it seems to be 2H/Bow. If you don't want to run what is considered the most optimal/efficient build, that is your choice, but you have to live with the shortcomings (i.e. use brutality pots at distance, and power extraction up close).

If anyone could pull a double-bar bow build its a stam NB, since they are fortunate enough to have some class options for melee (surprise attack, Ambush, Drain Power) if you need to use them with a bow equipped.

I plan on keeping my 2H/bow with some Melee abilities on my Stam NB. PVP is going to be flooded with DK's flapping their wings in DB, and I am going to want a way to effectively deal with any class.