[Permabans being lifted] ZOS how are we as a community dealing with exploits/hacking?

Pomaikai

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

XANTITHESISX wrote: »

... then once you reply to the thread it doesnt bump the thread


✭✭
I find it funny that this (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/270635/exploiters-at-it-again#latest) thread doesn't bump to the top when someone replies that confirms my belief that ZOS is trying to bury these topics for appearance sakes... We wouldn't want the general public that may be checking out information on the game to see that cheaters are running rampant with no real consequences.

This was completely unintentional and I have corrected the error that caused that thread to not rise when replied to. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

That's it? After 9 bloody days that's the best reply y'all can muster? Seriously?

Pomaikai

JamilaRaj wrote: »

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

sirinsidiator wrote: »

How about you make a thread then where you post every month how many cheaters and exploiters you have caught in the past month? You could also add some other numbers like how many bans of each type you handed out or how many exploits have been fixed for example. That way people can see that something is being done about it.

That's seems pretty reasonable and doable. We'll talk with our Dev and Support teams about it.

Can I called it "CHEATER BANNORATED TALLY"?

Do it!! There's some FREE publicity to be had.. like this:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/06/no-more-mr-nice-ubisoft-first-time-division-cheaters-now-banned-permanently/
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/05/blizzard-takes-zero-tolerance-stance-on-overwatch-cheating/

Also.. this shows ZOS isn't the only company having to deal with this.

As a species we're generally competitive - most people stay within the rules of the game (or society) if they are clear and reasonably well enforced but some will always seek to gain advantage by going outside the rules. This is why I find the approach ZOS take to 'known' cheats and exploits frustrating.

For example as a gaming community we are all pretty much aware that with the exception of spambush you can get onto a keep wall with various gap closers.... what many do not know is that this has been officially pronounced an exploit and a cheat... why do they not know? Because to be aware of it you need to dig around in multi page threads to find the posts from various mods or devs that together appear to make that a policy... or hack through the dev tracker looking for relevant posts to compare to the TOS.

What, IMHO, might help is a clear sticky'd thread pointing at a news item that announces that ZOS will be taking a much firmer stance on cheats going forward.

It should make clear in that article and thread that any tool that interferes with the client, the server or the communication between them is hacking and cheating and if proven will involve that account being banned forever.

In the thread there should be a maintained list of known exploits (i.e. bugs) that are deemed to be cheating if used outside their intended fashion - the penalties for abusing those cheats should also be clear be it a temp ban or a longer ban for repeated use.

Because right now we've got people exploiting the gap closer thing all day everyday in PvP, my guildies have reported and sent videos to ZOS but those guys are still playing. I spoke with someone in that alliance who I happen to have on my friends list and while that person considered it cheating they said that the people using it would not stop until they were clearly told it was cheating.

The point again is that this sort of info should be not be hidden in various posts on epic length threads but shouted from the rooftops so that there is no excuse for anyone not to know what is considered a cheat and that if someone sends a video of them using it then they WILL be banned.

I know ZOS do not like to communicate more than absolutely necessary but on this type of issue a clearer more open approach could help. No-one wants to know the specifics of what you are doing to catch people on the code side but clear statements on what is and isn't considered cheating on a case by case basis removes any grey areas.

TL;DR ZOS please communicate more about cheating/exploiting and... bump.

This needs to be quoted, you expressed this very well. How do you expect people to play by the rules if they don't know them. Cheat engines are one thing, but using an ability that is working is another. There needs to be a distinction. For all of you wondering I haven't stepped foot in cryo since beta and then shortly after launch when the gap closer exploiting was in full swing. Personally, these tactics do not bother me to me it adds dimension to keep siegeing, in the absence of ladders or wall scaling apparatuses we have gap closers. Either make it legit or let it be widely known it is a bug and not to be used in this manner. We need official communication clearly posted and communicated to all players.

Just as in any company when the rules change notification is sent to all customers affected.

So the company can not be (successfully) sued by customers. It is not as though customers actually read often lenghty, convoluted ToS agreements (which basically boil down to: 1) you agree with everything, 2) we guarantee nothing, 3) you can not sue us and 4) really, you can to sue us), deduce what is legit or not and adjust their behaviour.
Most people play by the rules because they are plain conformists doing what what people around do. Assuming people around play by the rules. If people around send other people to gas chambers, they will help them with that too.

Just because a software company puts something in a TOS or EULA doesn't mean that it is legal and/or would stand up in a court of law.

Xylphan

Pomaikai wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

sirinsidiator wrote: »

How about you make a thread then where you post every month how many cheaters and exploiters you have caught in the past month? You could also add some other numbers like how many bans of each type you handed out or how many exploits have been fixed for example. That way people can see that something is being done about it.

That's seems pretty reasonable and doable. We'll talk with our Dev and Support teams about it.

Can I called it "CHEATER BANNORATED TALLY"?

Do it!! There's some FREE publicity to be had.. like this:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/06/no-more-mr-nice-ubisoft-first-time-division-cheaters-now-banned-permanently/
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/05/blizzard-takes-zero-tolerance-stance-on-overwatch-cheating/

Also.. this shows ZOS isn't the only company having to deal with this.

As a species we're generally competitive - most people stay within the rules of the game (or society) if they are clear and reasonably well enforced but some will always seek to gain advantage by going outside the rules. This is why I find the approach ZOS take to 'known' cheats and exploits frustrating.

For example as a gaming community we are all pretty much aware that with the exception of spambush you can get onto a keep wall with various gap closers.... what many do not know is that this has been officially pronounced an exploit and a cheat... why do they not know? Because to be aware of it you need to dig around in multi page threads to find the posts from various mods or devs that together appear to make that a policy... or hack through the dev tracker looking for relevant posts to compare to the TOS.

What, IMHO, might help is a clear sticky'd thread pointing at a news item that announces that ZOS will be taking a much firmer stance on cheats going forward.

It should make clear in that article and thread that any tool that interferes with the client, the server or the communication between them is hacking and cheating and if proven will involve that account being banned forever.

In the thread there should be a maintained list of known exploits (i.e. bugs) that are deemed to be cheating if used outside their intended fashion - the penalties for abusing those cheats should also be clear be it a temp ban or a longer ban for repeated use.

Because right now we've got people exploiting the gap closer thing all day everyday in PvP, my guildies have reported and sent videos to ZOS but those guys are still playing. I spoke with someone in that alliance who I happen to have on my friends list and while that person considered it cheating they said that the people using it would not stop until they were clearly told it was cheating.

The point again is that this sort of info should be not be hidden in various posts on epic length threads but shouted from the rooftops so that there is no excuse for anyone not to know what is considered a cheat and that if someone sends a video of them using it then they WILL be banned.

I know ZOS do not like to communicate more than absolutely necessary but on this type of issue a clearer more open approach could help. No-one wants to know the specifics of what you are doing to catch people on the code side but clear statements on what is and isn't considered cheating on a case by case basis removes any grey areas.

TL;DR ZOS please communicate more about cheating/exploiting and... bump.

This needs to be quoted, you expressed this very well. How do you expect people to play by the rules if they don't know them. Cheat engines are one thing, but using an ability that is working is another. There needs to be a distinction. For all of you wondering I haven't stepped foot in cryo since beta and then shortly after launch when the gap closer exploiting was in full swing. Personally, these tactics do not bother me to me it adds dimension to keep siegeing, in the absence of ladders or wall scaling apparatuses we have gap closers. Either make it legit or let it be widely known it is a bug and not to be used in this manner. We need official communication clearly posted and communicated to all players.

Just as in any company when the rules change notification is sent to all customers affected.

So the company can not be (successfully) sued by customers. It is not as though customers actually read often lenghty, convoluted ToS agreements (which basically boil down to: 1) you agree with everything, 2) we guarantee nothing, 3) you can not sue us and 4) really, you can to sue us), deduce what is legit or not and adjust their behaviour.
Most people play by the rules because they are plain conformists doing what what people around do. Assuming people around play by the rules. If people around send other people to gas chambers, they will help them with that too.

Just because a software company puts something in a TOS or EULA doesn't mean that it is legal and/or would stand up in a court of law.

Their TOS is an agreement you made before they allowed you onto their property (servers). They are a privately owned and operated company. Their servers are bought and paid for by them. You are only permitted to play on their servers if you follow their rules. Otherwise, they can throw you out.

You bought the game. You own your copy. But you have zero rights when it comes to what's on the servers. You don't own the racks of servers, the databases, or anything else. They do. And they have full legal authority to remove people from their servers, just like you have full legal authority to remove people from your property.

RinaldoGandolphi

Good to see such slow progress

rfennell_ESO

Xylphan wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

sirinsidiator wrote: »

How about you make a thread then where you post every month how many cheaters and exploiters you have caught in the past month? You could also add some other numbers like how many bans of each type you handed out or how many exploits have been fixed for example. That way people can see that something is being done about it.

That's seems pretty reasonable and doable. We'll talk with our Dev and Support teams about it.

Can I called it "CHEATER BANNORATED TALLY"?

Do it!! There's some FREE publicity to be had.. like this:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/06/no-more-mr-nice-ubisoft-first-time-division-cheaters-now-banned-permanently/
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/05/blizzard-takes-zero-tolerance-stance-on-overwatch-cheating/

Also.. this shows ZOS isn't the only company having to deal with this.

As a species we're generally competitive - most people stay within the rules of the game (or society) if they are clear and reasonably well enforced but some will always seek to gain advantage by going outside the rules. This is why I find the approach ZOS take to 'known' cheats and exploits frustrating.

For example as a gaming community we are all pretty much aware that with the exception of spambush you can get onto a keep wall with various gap closers.... what many do not know is that this has been officially pronounced an exploit and a cheat... why do they not know? Because to be aware of it you need to dig around in multi page threads to find the posts from various mods or devs that together appear to make that a policy... or hack through the dev tracker looking for relevant posts to compare to the TOS.

What, IMHO, might help is a clear sticky'd thread pointing at a news item that announces that ZOS will be taking a much firmer stance on cheats going forward.

It should make clear in that article and thread that any tool that interferes with the client, the server or the communication between them is hacking and cheating and if proven will involve that account being banned forever.

In the thread there should be a maintained list of known exploits (i.e. bugs) that are deemed to be cheating if used outside their intended fashion - the penalties for abusing those cheats should also be clear be it a temp ban or a longer ban for repeated use.

Because right now we've got people exploiting the gap closer thing all day everyday in PvP, my guildies have reported and sent videos to ZOS but those guys are still playing. I spoke with someone in that alliance who I happen to have on my friends list and while that person considered it cheating they said that the people using it would not stop until they were clearly told it was cheating.

The point again is that this sort of info should be not be hidden in various posts on epic length threads but shouted from the rooftops so that there is no excuse for anyone not to know what is considered a cheat and that if someone sends a video of them using it then they WILL be banned.

I know ZOS do not like to communicate more than absolutely necessary but on this type of issue a clearer more open approach could help. No-one wants to know the specifics of what you are doing to catch people on the code side but clear statements on what is and isn't considered cheating on a case by case basis removes any grey areas.

TL;DR ZOS please communicate more about cheating/exploiting and... bump.

This needs to be quoted, you expressed this very well. How do you expect people to play by the rules if they don't know them. Cheat engines are one thing, but using an ability that is working is another. There needs to be a distinction. For all of you wondering I haven't stepped foot in cryo since beta and then shortly after launch when the gap closer exploiting was in full swing. Personally, these tactics do not bother me to me it adds dimension to keep siegeing, in the absence of ladders or wall scaling apparatuses we have gap closers. Either make it legit or let it be widely known it is a bug and not to be used in this manner. We need official communication clearly posted and communicated to all players.

Just as in any company when the rules change notification is sent to all customers affected.

So the company can not be (successfully) sued by customers. It is not as though customers actually read often lenghty, convoluted ToS agreements (which basically boil down to: 1) you agree with everything, 2) we guarantee nothing, 3) you can not sue us and 4) really, you can to sue us), deduce what is legit or not and adjust their behaviour.
Most people play by the rules because they are plain conformists doing what what people around do. Assuming people around play by the rules. If people around send other people to gas chambers, they will help them with that too.

Just because a software company puts something in a TOS or EULA doesn't mean that it is legal and/or would stand up in a court of law.

Their TOS is an agreement you made before they allowed you onto their property (servers). They are a privately owned and operated company. Their servers are bought and paid for by them. You are only permitted to play on their servers if you follow their rules. Otherwise, they can throw you out.

You bought the game. You own your copy. But you have zero rights when it comes to what's on the servers. You don't own the racks of servers, the databases, or anything else. They do. And they have full legal authority to remove people from their servers, just like you have full legal authority to remove people from your property.

They have full legal authority, sure.

But the bulk of most TOS' can be challenged and most of them are you signing away rights on future events or unknown events or even things you can't predict to be events. These are not things you can give away your rights on legally...

It's like the restaurant with the coat room that has a sign "Not responsible for lost items". Hint: Most of the time they actually are responsible for lost items.

Most of these TOS boilerplates would lose in a court of law, thing is who is going to actually take it to a court of law?

I'm 100% not defending cheats. Just saying that with a TOS, it's certainly not as clear cut as they make it out to be. Hence why they actually need proof of misdeeds.

Makkir

I am pretty sure they can just delete your character without any reason, I am also pretty sure that your character and items do not actually belong to you. So I don't think they need to spell it out in any TOS

Pomaikai

Still no official response from ZOS in its own stickied post for all to see.

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Rohamad_Ali

Makkir wrote: »

I am pretty sure they can just delete your character without any reason, I am also pretty sure that your character and items do not actually belong to you. So I don't think they need to spell it out in any TOS

Exactly this . The TOS is more of a hostage agreement . People can waste their time going to court on an agreement they made but the first thing they're gonna do is decide whether to just settle and refund . If anyone pushes beyond that , they'll go full counter suit to make an example of people wasting their money and time on layers and courts . The only place where the law gives leeway is in the EU . In the states except to get rekt if you push it too far .

Makkir

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

I am pretty sure they can just delete your character without any reason, I am also pretty sure that your character and items do not actually belong to you. So I don't think they need to spell it out in any TOS

Exactly this . The TOS is more of a hostage agreement . People can waste their time going to court on an agreement they made but the first thing they're gonna do is decide whether to just settle and refund . If anyone pushes beyond that , they'll go full counter suit to make an example of people wasting their money and time on layers and courts . The only place where the law gives leeway is in the EU . In the states except to get rekt if you push it too far .

Also, if you had any ownership of your virtual stuff (toons, etc) then I am sure you would be allowed to sell them as well.

AnnieBeGood

Back to the topic..... is anything going to be done?
I see more and more instances that are examples of it..... horses running at speeds faster than normal..... people running faster than normal...... in pve mainly, trying to do quests at ultra high speeds I think.
Please it needs to be clamped down on, it is indeed ruining the game. Even the suspicion that they are using it spoils the game.

clayandaudrey_ESO

Good luck trying to get an answer out of them. They have the biggest broom trying to sweep this under the rug. They just wish this thread would go away. It needs to stay at the top.

Rohamad_Ali

It's clear with several people initially reported as banned , known to the players as CE users , then unbanned ZOS is not taking this seriously at all at this point . My ESO plus is not going back up . I have too many other places that money will bring more enjoyment . My account has the PvE content unlocked for casual free play . I couldn't care less what ZOS does to improve security at this point so Cyrodiil is off my to do list now . Who knows , there maybe enough players left that don't mind to see One Tamriel PvP happen . I'm not bothering checking in anymore until then .

Good luck fixing this @ZOS_JessicaFolsom . Sincerely good luck . It's a bigger mess then I want to sit through .

Nifty2g

Absolutely pathetic what this company is doing and heading down a bad road. I for one probably wont stick around through this either.
Is this meant to be some sort of joke? What the hell am I paying for, my money going to waste so people can hack the game? You have this topic, with a bold statement the community is agreeing with

So to you ZOS, I hope you are doing the right thing, but if this continues to get out of hand, your community is going to lose it's faith and turn against you.

Start to wonder why I'm even bothering at this point. Let your game get hacked and ruined then, your anti cheat system isn't preventing it, the people you unbanned will keep doing it. Who cares right?

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom whoever is in charge of these, let them know they are doing an absolute horrible job. You should probably remove the statement about 43 people permabanned as most of them are beginning to be unbanned now.

Zheg

Of all of the many, many common sense things that ZOS has royally effed up, I think this one stands out among the crowd. On a side note, I'm surprised there aren't more shame bell memes.

Personofsecrets

Permabans don't sell crowns. welcome to the post-crown store sub to win world.

KhajiitiLizard

Un-banning the permabanned? Really, this is just showing cheaters that this game has no real consequences for cheating.

Loves_guars

I'm not surprised at all, this is the land of cheaters and exploiters, the other day when I read how they brag about it in this very forum with total impunity it became clear that Zenimax doesn't care at all.

Honest players shouldn't play pvp in this game, not because you can't kill the cheaters, but out of principles. Hell, I don't even feel like logging at all.

timidobserver

Somebody in accounting probably crunched the numbers and figured out how much money those permabans would cost over the period of a year. It's probably a significant digit.

Nifty2g

timidobserver wrote: »

Somebody in accounting probably crunched the numbers and figured out how much money those permabans would cost over the period of a year. It's probably a significant digit.

It's a shame those people only think short term, as this game is going to die out now that we don't ban hacking.

Pomaikai

Dear ZOS, if you don't want to get bashed, then get off your BUTTS and fix this! Live GM's in Cyrodiil policing fights. We don't care how much money this costs you, because if you DO NOT FIX THIS, then it will cost you your entire game, and your employees their livelihood.

KhajiitiLizard

What makes them think that hackers would even sub or buy anything the the crown store? They probably stole the game or the money for it anyway.

Personofsecrets

Nifty2g wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Somebody in accounting probably crunched the numbers and figured out how much money those permabans would cost over the period of a year. It's probably a significant digit.

It's a shame those people only think short term, as this game is going to die out now that we don't ban hacking.

somebody will have to quit because of cheating first.

that may be a problem - nobody is willing to quit because the enjoyable aspects outweigh the unenjoyable.

KhajiitiLizard

People already are quitting... they have been quitting since the original launch. I have some friends who haven't even played in 2 years. Over half of them. My PVP guild quit last year as well.

Rohamad_Ali

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Somebody in accounting probably crunched the numbers and figured out how much money those permabans would cost over the period of a year. It's probably a significant digit.

It's a shame those people only think short term, as this game is going to die out now that we don't ban hacking.

somebody will have to quit because of cheating first.

that may be a problem - nobody is willing to quit because the enjoyable aspects outweigh the unenjoyable.

Not a problem at all . Been meaning to get new tires on the Magnum Opus , Upgrade the scram jets on my ship and test a few alphas I got accepted into .

Personofsecrets

KhajiitiLizard wrote: »

People already are quitting... they have been quitting since the original launch. I have some friends who haven't even played in 2 years. Over half of them. My PVP guild quit last year as well.

I guess we just need more subscription bonuses then to keep the game floating. Maybe ZOS doesn't want customers who are willing to quit.

SirDopey

Makkir wrote: »

hamgatan wrote: »

kyle.wilson wrote: »

I think, that along with banning the account. They should also ban the ip adresss, email adress and credit card used on that account. At least make it difficult for them to start another account.

no that's going a bit far.. well on the IP front anyway.

with the IPV4 space running out worldwide, ISP's are rapidly switching to dynamic IP (DHCP) for subscriber links. In most cases it costs extra to have a Static reservation now. By banning the IP you may inadvertently block another customer who is allocated that IP from the DHCP pool who has done nothing wrong..

Bro i think the chances of someone else with the same ID also playing Elder scrolls online.....well i think you got a better chance of finding a 3 legged ballerina. besides i think theres only about 9 of us left who still play on PC . :-)

In the US maybe, but its still quite common in Aus. Everytime we restart our modem at home we get a different ip assigned and we're with the 3rd largest internet provider in the country, so I would say the chances of IPs crossing over would be quite high..

Nifty2g

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Somebody in accounting probably crunched the numbers and figured out how much money those permabans would cost over the period of a year. It's probably a significant digit.

It's a shame those people only think short term, as this game is going to die out now that we don't ban hacking.

somebody will have to quit because of cheating first.

that may be a problem - nobody is willing to quit because the enjoyable aspects outweigh the unenjoyable.

It's not that, it's the lasting effect.
Someone gets banned by using cheat engine, ZOS "Perma ban" them as an example for "we don't take cheating lightly", and say they have anti cheat system in place, now their anti cheat system isn't too great you can still do the hack just at a very low level from what I have heard.

Said person gets unbanned, and some others from what I've been hearing, and starts to use hacks just on a lower level, ZOS now have ruined their word, prove they really don't care about the game when you think about it and only see this community as digits and statistics rather than something more personal. This will start to drag their image down almost everywhere if it gets out, gaming news websites etc, people will think everyone is cheating and it will just become a huge cheating game, players will stop subscribing, and then it will slowly lose players and die out.

Such a shame for how much I actually care about this game and the amount of time "we've" put into it to know in the end it really doesn't matter and our money to provide a good service is slowly dropping.

Disappointing ZOS.

Rohamad_Ali

Yep . Once this goes out in a review on more then one major game website . Poof . Revenue drops v

Whatzituyah

Don't you think they get bad results when they were trying to track down the cheaters? Its very possible that they unbanned these people because they didn't cheat and have proof on their end. No need for tin foil hats here leave that for in real life restricted area theories.

Personofsecrets

well, honesty can't be bought in the crown store.