Balanced.

Zheg

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As an aside, I wonder if the usual suspects realize that all of the exaggerations, BS, and complaining they're doing makes them more prone to be targeted with jesus beam spam. If I see frozn and am leading group, I gleefully instruct any templar with jesus beam slotted to throw it on him because I know how angry it will make him.

Wait, you're saying that I'm supposed to be angry because I'm getting zerged down by the most organized and successful guild in DC NA 24v1 since almost a year ago? It makes me proud and flattered that you need that many to get me down.

Angry because we were able to play "Where's Waldo?" in the red horde, find you, and jesus beam you. It's actually better if you don't die and we do it at full health, there's a greater chance of you going on the forums. And fyi, my groups are usually around 12, and it's been a rare occurrence to break 20 much less get a full raid in this permaroot meta.

frozywozy

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As an aside, I wonder if the usual suspects realize that all of the exaggerations, BS, and complaining they're doing makes them more prone to be targeted with jesus beam spam. If I see frozn and am leading group, I gleefully instruct any templar with jesus beam slotted to throw it on him because I know how angry it will make him.

Wait, you're saying that I'm supposed to be angry because I'm getting zerged down by the most organized and successful guild in DC NA 24v1 since almost a year ago? It makes me proud and flattered that you need that many to get me down.

Angry because we were able to play "Where's Waldo?" in the red horde, find you, and jesus beam you. It's actually better if you don't die and we do it at full health, there's a greater chance of you going on the forums. And fyi, my groups are usually around 12, and it's been a rare occurrence to break 20 much less get a full raid in this permaroot meta.

That moment when Zheg calls me a zerger. lol

Ghost-Shot

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As an aside, I wonder if the usual suspects realize that all of the exaggerations, BS, and complaining they're doing makes them more prone to be targeted with jesus beam spam. If I see frozn and am leading group, I gleefully instruct any templar with jesus beam slotted to throw it on him because I know how angry it will make him.

Wait, you're saying that I'm supposed to be angry because I'm getting zerged down by the most organized and successful guild in DC NA 24v1 since almost a year ago? It makes me proud and flattered that you need that many to get me down.

Angry because we were able to play "Where's Waldo?" in the red horde, find you, and jesus beam you. It's actually better if you don't die and we do it at full health, there's a greater chance of you going on the forums. And fyi, my groups are usually around 12, and it's been a rare occurrence to break 20 much less get a full raid in this permaroot meta.

That moment when Zheg calls me a zerger. lol

Well you are, so its a factual statement.

Darnathian

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As an aside, I wonder if the usual suspects realize that all of the exaggerations, BS, and complaining they're doing makes them more prone to be targeted with jesus beam spam. If I see frozn and am leading group, I gleefully instruct any templar with jesus beam slotted to throw it on him because I know how angry it will make him.

Wait, you're saying that I'm supposed to be angry because I'm getting zerged down by the most organized and successful guild in DC NA 24v1 since almost a year ago? It makes me proud and flattered that you need that many to get me down.

Angry because we were able to play "Where's Waldo?" in the red horde, find you, and jesus beam you. It's actually better if you don't die and we do it at full health, there's a greater chance of you going on the forums. And fyi, my groups are usually around 12, and it's been a rare occurrence to break 20 much less get a full raid in this permaroot meta.

That moment when Zheg calls me a zerger. lol

I think he meant find the clueless guy in the crowd.

Takllin

I mean you've repeatedly stated that you go solo into the red zerg, so I don't see how he's wrong?

Minno

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As an aside, I wonder if the usual suspects realize that all of the exaggerations, BS, and complaining they're doing makes them more prone to be targeted with jesus beam spam. If I see frozn and am leading group, I gleefully instruct any templar with jesus beam slotted to throw it on him because I know how angry it will make him.

Wait, you're saying that I'm supposed to be angry because I'm getting zerged down by the most organized and successful guild in DC NA 24v1 since almost a year ago? It makes me proud and flattered that you need that many to get me down.

Angry because we were able to play "Where's Waldo?" in the red horde, find you, and jesus beam you. It's actually better if you don't die and we do it at full health, there's a greater chance of you going on the forums. And fyi, my groups are usually around 12, and it's been a rare occurrence to break 20 much less get a full raid in this permaroot meta.

That moment when Zheg calls me a zerger. lol

#NerfFrozen

KenaPKK

Darnathian wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

@OdinForge of course wings shuts down a magplar. Does that mean the magplar will always lose? Of course not. Well timed CC, burst from prox and ult can do it if you've gotten them damaged already. But does that mean a DK will always die to RD? No, it doesn't. The point is that DK and magplars are in a position right now where they counter each other, though I would argue DK is a stronger counter. When I see DKs whining about RD, it's abundantly clear to me that they would not want to give up their strengths (talons, wings) against a magplar, but want the one counter to them to be done away with for obvious reasons - reasons that have little to do with actual balance.

If the discussion is about RD in an outnumbered situation, why is the OP about a guy on a horse being ganked by a single templar? Hmmmmmmm? The discussion is about whining, plain and simple, because people do in fact want easy mode.

The outnumbered argument has been done already, and sorry, but you aren't capable of making a strong enough argument for why skills should be balanced around a 1vX situation at the expense of 1v1, small groups, and mid-large scale groups. You're just not that important guys, sorry to burst your bubble. You also don't get to cherry pick a single skill in outnumbered situations when you'd die just as quick if all of those templars were NBs. I don't die to jesus beam in outnumbered situations very often, most of the time it's because of a WB or a bowtard after I've exhausted all my stam and am rooted and can't CC break. That's because it's not a counter to my build. You don't see me making multiple threads complaining about every counter to my build, do you? No, because that would be silly.

At the expense of 1v1 or raid? That skill isn't even good for those scenarios, at best ZOS should be providing a better designed skill for these situations.

You don't see me making multiple threads complaining about every counter to my build, do you? No, because that would be silly.

Wrecking blow had its time in the sun, and now they split the effects between two morphs. Maybe you didn't make threads about it, but people did and that's how it works.

You're over-complicating this, and since you aren't a solo player, you're incapable of understanding what anyone here is saying. Your argument is just as opinionated as the rest of us, you're just on the opposite side of the fence. You think you're on some high throne, but really you haven't done anything more than banter opinions yourself.

When you say stuff like this.

but you aren't capable of making a strong enough argument for why skills should be balanced around a 1vX situation at the expense of 1v1, small groups, and mid-large scale groups

You're just not that important guys, sorry to burst your bubble.

You're just flexing your opinion, you aren't an authority. This isn't your pie to choose how to share, you play the same game everyone else does. Until ZOS gives the small player a place to stretch their legs you have to deal with our play style.

FALSE. He states facts and specific counters. You, Kena, etc complain because reasons.

This video is way worse than the OP's other thread. Funny really.

And if u think he is no soloer i invite u to fight him. I would probably log in to see that.

You would get Rekt. Like on the forums.

Wait, I missed this little gem. Odin get rekt by Zheg? Hmmm. I would love to learn how Zheg would fare in a 1v1. Interesting proposal.

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

I love how the forumplars mention all the "facts and specific counters" that they've cited, but leave out the fact that their counters are available to less than half of the class archetypes when radiant is used at long range or from behind other players.

Come to think of it, only a mageblade or a stamblade with decent magicka regen can consistently deal with radiant in real world combat situations like the one Rylana described.

Wrong. Again. Wrong, even after being told this exact same thing in your other thread.

Nb - cloak
Templar - purify and strong heals
Sorc - shields
DK - least of all class-based counters, obsidian shield --> heal, magma shell/corrosive as an ultimate option. The biggest source of complaints, does not want to admit their wings counter magplars other damage, only wants the last remaining threat from magplar off the table.

How, exactly, is 3/4, and even 4/4 to some extent, "less than half of the class archetypes"? You can call me a forumplar as many times as you like, I'll continue calling out the blatant BS you're spewing. Logicplar > Kena

Don't leave stamina out.

Also magicka sorc "spamming shields" will lose. That isn't a counter, that's a delayed death, as Rylana humorously pointed out.

I'll let my DK friends know to hold their ults for the Jesus beam. Great call.

Aaaaand that moment when sweeps are reflectable. Mkay.

You beating your head into this wall just shows how out of touch with open world PvP away from your 24 man raids that you've become.

I mean, it's true that I didn't spend 80% of my pvp experience ganking in the sewers and actually fought in cyro. It's also true that when I was in cyro I did more than prox tether bomb with VD. I must really be out of touch with open world pvp compared to you.

It's been said multiple times already, are you playing dumb, or ... Ahem. A single root counters sweeps. You claiming DKs need more roots? On a side note, considering you seem to be failing miserably at 1vXing, maybe going magma shell/corrosive would help you stay alive.

Magicka sorc spamming shields and repositioning themselves with streak is a good player, an alive player.

Cloak works for stamblade, purify and heals work for stamplar. I didn't leave them out.

Want to continue embarrassing yourself?

LOL now this is straight laughable.

Less than half of my PvP experience has been in the sewers. My groups and I dominated them back when actual PvPers were there, including Nexus, whom we forced out on multiple occasions despite being outnumbered, but I grew bored of the sewers when real PvPers left.

I have also spent probably a total of 8 hours wearing VD since TG's release and only two weeks using proxy on and off prior to its release, except large sewer bombs (1v23 being my record to date), which I only used for tel var income and never gloated about.

But I am likely the most lethal proxy mageblade in the game per unit of time spent proxy bombing things. I killed on average ~130 people per hour in Cyrodiil open world and keep fights only when on my silly VD bombing sprees with an average of 1.5 deaths per hour. I tracked the data because I found proxy and VD to be so stupidly overtuned. When running my old Lich + Julianos single target proxy burst setup, I died less than once per 3 hours and picked people off on the outskirts of groups.

I would love to see you accomplish those things.

Regardless, most of my time in Cyrodiil since 1.7's release has been spent playing either dual wield mageblade with no proxy or gap closer, destro/resto proxiless, cloakless mageblade or full sap tank support mageblade. I 1vX just fine on my dual wield and staffblades against known quality players, and I win duels against the best more often than I lose, while using unique and off-"meta" builds.

If you think you have any room to insult me as a player or presume that all I do is proxy bomb and sewer gank, then you are showing your ignorance and are shattering your arguments here.

This amuses me. Have some dignity and stop insulting me.

Don't say moronic things like "spambush does no damage on its own", or "you aren't vulnerable when casting or channeling" (as per your last whine thread), and I won't have grounds with which to highlight said moronic things and call you out on your BS.

We have different playstyles, I like to think being one of the architects of the current iterations of blazing shield tanks counts for something after being able to throw myself into full raids and not only survive, but troll at the same time. In fact, it sounds like I did the very 1vX thing you're struggling so much with, but against good players. It's cute that you wrote down and memorized all of those stats though, trying to convince people that they should pay attention to you?

Can't really blame me for assuming you spend the majority of time in the sewers when it's all I've ever seen you talk about, and the only times I've ever seen you in actual pvp over the past few months.

But again, don't respond to the portion where what you previously said was laid out as being complete BS, that way you can wait 2 pages, or for another thread, and make the same blatantly false statement again.

I don't play in TF. I don't like zergs, and I don't like lag. We don't talk, so idk where you heard me talking about the sewers so much. Given all this, I doubt you've seen me in PvP in forever, especially with your impressions of how I play...

I consider tracking my kda to be a good method of improving performance. I don't usually share my data with anyone, so no, it's not about attention... Now, though, you have made it about dispelling slander. When looking at my kda, I mainly focus on deaths. If I'm dying, then I am making mistakes that can be improved upon. I reflect on deaths until I find crucial mistakes, then I work to avoid repeating them in the future.

Spambush is no damage threat whatsoever. Radiant spam is a great damage threat, even at high health. Spambush is a threat only because of the little snare root thing that locks you down for other enemies to beat on you.

Channeling radiant inside gap closer range makes you vulnerable, but channeling it outside of gap closer range when you have some allies around does not. That is where the problem lies.

Yay, blazing shield tanks. Those are really cool, and I like having them around, props. This doesn't need to be a DK measuring contest , but I've theorycrafted some cool and quite capable stuff as well. I don't openly gloat about my builds or publish build videos, but I do share openly in private when asked specific questions (with the exception of my latest staffblade build, derp). In fact, I'd wager I have my hands in the majority of mageblade builds being used by top tier players in solo, small group, and large group play right now.

I made a Tava's + Transmutation + Lord Warden's sap tank that can sit in zergs for a loooooong time. Try that combo out -- it's nasty. I made a destro resto build back when IC first released that could sustain back to back 2 Kena procs indefinitely, keeping 4450 spell damage and 11.1k Swallow Soul tooltips up permanently without running out of magicka. In fact, that build is the grandfather of all the staffblades you see popping up lately. Multiple people come to me for advice every time I log on, and from time to time on the forums. My current staffblade build has lethal one shot burst, 29k health, 17k stamina, infinite resource sustain with some resource management, 50%+ bonus healing (that probably gives it away), and 4 layered HoTs. That build is beast, but it is one of several other staffblade setups that I put together. Ask someone who plays with me how many armor sets I have made for my theorycrafting. I also designed the nuances of Sypher's alch+VD bomb build. Fengrush came to me early one morning asking for advice on min/maxing that build the week before Sypher started streaming it. Oh, and I theorycrafted the stam NB dw/bow dot build that is about to be everywhere after DB release, but I had been running it with some success (Flurry is really annoying right now ) back when Orsinium released. Toxic Defiance is OP af by the way.

I totally copied Vita Belial's dual wield bar setup for one of my builds though. He doesn't use proxy or a gap closer, and it's beautiful to watch. He taught me a lot back in the day, as have Araxleon, Jago, and Aenlir.

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Notice that I did not preface any of my posts saying that I myself am struggling against radiant.

It's melee classes in general that radiant plagues. Interrupting or breaking the beam with Purify or Cloak does nothing, as the beamplar can simply begin a new channel. Melee players and often magicka sorcs need to get up on the Templar and pressire them to use other abilities in order to counter radiant spam.

This goes for 1vX, sure, but it's a major issue for any smaller group where there aren't deficated healers like you watching everyone's backs. A couple Templars spamming radiant from the rear of a group completely change the dynamic of the fight. Basically, you get to them and kill them or be killed.

If they are beyond gap closer range and have competent allies, then good luck.

Interrupting the beam, and even better - immediately breaking it with LoS (or cloak/purify) makes the templar waste their magicka on a relatively expensive skill and buys you time to react and re-position. If you're engaging in a wide open field solo against multiple players and have no LoS opportunities, you deserve to be at great risk of dying, whether by jesus beam or anything else.

Ah yes, tell a stamplar or stamblade to keep Purifying or Cloaking when they're out of magicka after a few casts. Tell a magicka sorc that they'll be able to continue the fight when they are relegated to shield spamming under snares to survive. Tell a stam sorc.....well.....that's a low blow. RIP stam sorcs. Tell a magicka or stam DK to...ult, was it? This leaves magicka templars and nightblades as the only classes with real, even leveled ways to break the beam. However, if they have to keep cloaking or purifying to break repeated beam casts, they'll just be run over by other enemies, even if they have a group of their own.

FYI, radiant is currently not being broken by LoS around trees or through some walls and most rocks. You have to get way around the corner of a structure or rock for the beam to break, which takes time and resources to do quickly enough to make a difference. Running from the beamplar just extends the fight and delays your death unless you disengage completely and try to escape -- but then that means that a radiant spammer = must escape from the fight, which is hardly balance... You have no choice but to close on radiant spammers and kill them in small group and solo fights. If you don't kill them promptly, they will kill you.

KenaPKK

God that's a long post.. Alrighty, I'm done here too. @Zheg @Darnathian and others, I invite you both to duo with me or run with my small groups after I get my new mouse and can play again so that I can show you exactly what we've been talking about here. Many many players -- good players who know how the game works quite well -- believe that radiant is too strong for one reason or another. Forums lead to too much animosity, so perhaps an in game approach is better.

Ghost-Shot

Kena weren't you in our group like a month ago when we crowned Kodi? Maybe a little longer than that, you can't hate zergs that much

Darnathian

KenaPKK wrote: »

God that's a long post.. Alrighty, I'm done here too. @Zheg @Darnathian and others, I invite you both to duo with me or run with my small groups after I get my new mouse and can play again so that I can show you exactly what we've been talking about here. Many many players -- good players who know how the game works quite well -- believe that radiant is too strong for one reason or another. Forums lead to too much animosity, so perhaps an in game approach is better.

Thank you for inv but i stepped away from the game a month ago until Zos takes pvp seriously and fixes it.

Its not animosity. You are not presenting valid arguments.

You are trying to balance around 1vx. Any NB or Sorc crying for nerfs to dks or templars will draw a LOT of criticism.

KenaPKK

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Kena weren't you in our group like a month ago when we crowned Kodi? Maybe a little longer than that

Briefly. Maybe my sense of time is out of whack, but wasn't that a couple of months back? I had forgotten about it. But yes, I was following Kodi and the boys around helping to crown and found myself in a VE group. One of two times I've grouped with y'all since early September. Thank you for helping to crown him, by the way. It meant a lot to him. I was pleased with Bulb's sneaky tactic to hide and then quickly pop the keep while AD ran away, thinking we'd left. Very clever.

Regardless, I was in some bomb setup or other designed to kill forward camps and then hit the flags hard when we pushed in. Not exactly grounds for Zheg to talk down to me so harshly..

Jordaen

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

As an aside, I wonder if the usual suspects realize that all of the exaggerations, BS, and complaining they're doing makes them more prone to be targeted with jesus beam spam. If I see frozn and am leading group, I gleefully instruct any templar with jesus beam slotted to throw it on him because I know how angry it will make him.

Wait, you're saying that I'm supposed to be angry because I'm getting zerged down by the most organized and successful guild in DC NA 24v1 since almost a year ago? It makes me proud and flattered that you need that many to get me down.

Angry because we were able to play "Where's Waldo?" in the red horde, find you, and jesus beam you. It's actually better if you don't die and we do it at full health, there's a greater chance of you going on the forums. And fyi, my groups are usually around 12, and it's been a rare occurrence to break 20 much less get a full raid in this permaroot meta.

That moment when Zheg calls me a zerger. lol

/LOL

Zheg

KenaPKK wrote: »

God that's a long post.. Alrighty, I'm done here too. @Zheg @Darnathian and others, I invite you both to duo with me or run with my small groups after I get my new mouse and can play again so that I can show you exactly what we've been talking about here. Many many players -- good players who know how the game works quite well -- believe that radiant is too strong for one reason or another. Forums lead to too much animosity, so perhaps an in game approach is better.

Many many players -- good players who know how the game works quite well -- believe that radiant is not over-performing. If you want to convince me and the other 'forumplars' otherwise, you're going to need actual examples in video, which should be abundantly available given how "OP" the skill is. Whether or not you want to believe it, I solo and small-man enough to be in the exact same scenarios you're complaining about, but I don't have issues with jesus beam. I'm also ok with stam builds struggling with it more than mag-builds, I think rock/paper/scissor is better balance than rock/rock/rock - to use an old analogy. Stam builds shouldn't spam cloak/purify, but if they can't combine it with LoS and react, then they were likely to lose that fight regardless of whether jesus beam was even in the game. Do you really think they should have the same level of counter as a magicka build using those same skills? On TOP of being able to dodge roll and soon-to-be bone shield? That's why you have been so unsuccessful. Not everyone thinks stam builds should be good at everything and not underperform in some areas and overperform in others. Some think that's good balance. With balance aside, you keep waffling back and forth on whether it's the damage, range, execute % that you choose to complain about. That sounds to me like you just don't like the skill, not that you have a sound reason for it to be re-balanced. And again, those videos, if they existed, they'd be on the forums.

KenaPKK

Darnathian wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

God that's a long post.. Alrighty, I'm done here too. @Zheg @Darnathian and others, I invite you both to duo with me or run with my small groups after I get my new mouse and can play again so that I can show you exactly what we've been talking about here. Many many players -- good players who know how the game works quite well -- believe that radiant is too strong for one reason or another. Forums lead to too much animosity, so perhaps an in game approach is better.

Thank you for inv but i stepped away from the game a month ago until Zos takes pvp seriously and fixes it.

Its not animosity. You are not presenting valid arguments.

You are trying to balance around 1vx. Any NB or Sorc crying for nerfs to dks or templars will draw a LOT of criticism.

Das raycist.

And not rational criticism.

"Melee things should be able to gap close onto beaming things because beams hurt bad and melee things need to kill the beaming things to survive because beaming things can just beam again" is pretty sound imo...

KenaPKK

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

God that's a long post.. Alrighty, I'm done here too. @Zheg @Darnathian and others, I invite you both to duo with me or run with my small groups after I get my new mouse and can play again so that I can show you exactly what we've been talking about here. Many many players -- good players who know how the game works quite well -- believe that radiant is too strong for one reason or another. Forums lead to too much animosity, so perhaps an in game approach is better.

Many many players -- good players who know how the game works quite well -- believe that radiant is not over-performing. If you want to convince me and the other 'forumplars' otherwise, you're going to need actual examples in video, which should be abundantly available given how "OP" the skill is. Whether or not you want to believe it, I solo and small-man enough to be in the exact same scenarios you're complaining about, but I don't have issues with jesus beam. I'm also ok with stam builds struggling with it more than mag-builds, I think rock/paper/scissor is better balance than rock/rock/rock - to use an old analogy. Stam builds shouldn't spam cloak/purify, but if they can't combine it with LoS and react, then they were likely to lose that fight regardless of whether jesus beam was even in the game. Do you really think they should have the same level of counter as a magicka build using those same skills? On TOP of being able to dodge roll and soon-to-be bone shield? That's why you have been so unsuccessful. Not everyone thinks stam builds should be good at everything and not underperform in some areas and overperform in others. Some think that's good balance. With balance aside, you keep waffling back and forth on whether it's the damage, range, execute % that you choose to complain about. That sounds to me like you just don't like the skill, not that you have a sound reason for it to be re-balanced. And again, those videos, if they existed, they'd be on the forums.

Uh, I'm magicka, not stam. I've also not been unsuccessful. I'm not personally struggling with radiant as much as others. Maybe 2 or 3 fights screwed by it in the past few weeks. I'm tired of hearing everyone around me screaming about it, and I believe their arguments against it are valid.

Imo, melee things should be able to gap close to radiant spamming things because most melee things don't have abundant counters to it other than bashing or killing the templar.

And I think that the damage, execute %, and range are all above average for an execute ability. I stated quite simply in the title of my last post that I believe that if the range were brought into line with other ranged executes, the damage and execute % might be balanced. I can't judge that, though, because I've not seen the skill in action at an 18m range. One thing I am certain of, however, is that the ability excels in all 3 and is unique in that regard.

The other 50% execute ability is melee range, for example. It can also be dodged. There are tradeoffs there...

DocFrost72

I don't get why people think it should be easy to 1vX. The reality is that ANY strong move is OP when you're outnumbered. Take a hit from stealth, a root, a few snares, a gap closer, get burger flipped, or for the love of god take an ambush or surprise attack from a stealthed Nightblade, and it's almost guaranteed over. It will always be hard to 1vX, but the good players fight Zergs by bringing them to rocks, trees, or cliffs where LoS is broken.

If you complain that Jeebus Zeam hits too hard, or shoots too far, or is too hard to counter, it literally has to be the only thing to do so. And LoS breaks it like ANY other deadly thing used against one player.

I'm not saying it doesn't hit hard, I'm saying spamming Mages' fury or Impale could give very similar results, as long as you have a zerg to back you up. Though, freaking heavy attacks could too in that situation...

DisgracefulMind

I'm not going to argue much about RD but I will state that that 24k isn't an instant cast damage (most likely); it's the entire channel duration of damage.

Then again, if he was at ~10% health, then, yeah, it can hit pretty hard, as it should as an execute.

KenaPKK

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I'm not going to argue much about RD but I will state that that 24k isn't an instant cast damage (most likely); it's the entire channel duration of damage.

Then again, if he was at ~10% health, then, yeah, it can hit pretty hard, as it should as an execute.

The entire channel still shouldn't be able to kill a guy in my opinion. >.< Heck, I don't think two full channels should.

Xsorus

Most of the time they just Darkflare into RD and that's pretty much it.

Satiar

Xsorus wrote: »

Most of the time they just Darkflare into RD and that's pretty much it.

There's a reason I have defensive stance and a twitchy block finger.

Mojomonkeyman

Zheg wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

forumplars inc



You can't take away their radiant oppressionz, cuz their class is so weak. Templar is weak, it's always been weak. You can't kill anyone as a templar, we needs our oppressionz.

stahp itt

I never see any of the sane templars making this argument. If your reading comprehension is at such low levels that you aren't able to retain the almost bullet-point-like rundown explanations, then that actually starts to make a ton of sense for why you're all still so slow on the uptake.

Demonstrate actual broken numbers that cannot be achieved on any other glass cannon build and this "forumplar" will agree that the skill he almost never even uses should be rebalanced. I'm not defending the skill because we need it, I'm defending against the idiotic need for stam builds to feel like they should have zero counters and be able to take on insane numbers like 1.6-orsinium because of how broken their builds were. I'm defending against "nerf this because I'm able to cherry pick examples, ignore all of the other examples where it shows rational numbers, and don't ask too many questions about the guy that died, he was a full tank spec, I promise."

One month in and none of you have been able to demonstrate broken numbers against a reasonable build and mid-level of pvp competency. Not once. If you're actually capable of doing so, then do it. If you can't do it, then maybe it's because you've been dead wrong this whole time and accurately called out on your BS.

This thread below, meant to whine about jesus beam and show how 'broken' it is, showed RD as the last killing blow with an 8.3k CRIT, on an EXECUTE. It also showed 4 separate people each hitting him/her with RD for 1.5k to 2k EACH time. Surely such OP things need to be fixed! Surely you and the other stam builds aren't BSing all of us!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/264924/just-another-day-in-cyrodiil-right#latest

Go solo stamsorc for a day and come back telling me that jesus beam is fine... People will say I exaggerate, but believe me I dont: RD is responsible for about 80% of my deaths, because I rely on a bouncing HP bar, which is hardcountered by that abomination of a skill.

I am by no means invincible as a stamsorc, exactly 2 flash heals a minute - pot + rally, you can never keep up with the beam spams outnumbered. Outnumbered shouldnt mean insta death versus one skill. This skill renders any build not based on shields, cloak or flash heals void.

Please dont be so desperate to defend such an imbalanced skill, just because your class lacks in other departments.

Zheg

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

forumplars inc



You can't take away their radiant oppressionz, cuz their class is so weak. Templar is weak, it's always been weak. You can't kill anyone as a templar, we needs our oppressionz.

stahp itt

I never see any of the sane templars making this argument. If your reading comprehension is at such low levels that you aren't able to retain the almost bullet-point-like rundown explanations, then that actually starts to make a ton of sense for why you're all still so slow on the uptake.

Demonstrate actual broken numbers that cannot be achieved on any other glass cannon build and this "forumplar" will agree that the skill he almost never even uses should be rebalanced. I'm not defending the skill because we need it, I'm defending against the idiotic need for stam builds to feel like they should have zero counters and be able to take on insane numbers like 1.6-orsinium because of how broken their builds were. I'm defending against "nerf this because I'm able to cherry pick examples, ignore all of the other examples where it shows rational numbers, and don't ask too many questions about the guy that died, he was a full tank spec, I promise."

One month in and none of you have been able to demonstrate broken numbers against a reasonable build and mid-level of pvp competency. Not once. If you're actually capable of doing so, then do it. If you can't do it, then maybe it's because you've been dead wrong this whole time and accurately called out on your BS.

This thread below, meant to whine about jesus beam and show how 'broken' it is, showed RD as the last killing blow with an 8.3k CRIT, on an EXECUTE. It also showed 4 separate people each hitting him/her with RD for 1.5k to 2k EACH time. Surely such OP things need to be fixed! Surely you and the other stam builds aren't BSing all of us!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/264924/just-another-day-in-cyrodiil-right#latest

Go solo stamsorc for a day and come back telling me that jesus beam is fine... People will say I exaggerate, but believe me I dont: RD is responsible for about 80% of my deaths, because I rely on a bouncing HP bar, which is hardcountered by that abomination of a skill.

I am by no means invincible as a stamsorc, exactly 2 flash heals a minute - pot + rally, you can never keep up with the beam spams outnumbered. Outnumbered shouldnt mean insta death versus one skill. This skill renders any build not based on shields, cloak or flash heals void.

Please dont be so desperate to defend such an imbalanced skill, just because your class lacks in other departments.

In kena's other whine thread when we ran through the different classes, I made it a point to state that stam sorcs have no good defensive counter, and blamed Wrobel. As you advise, I would point out that stam sorc lacks in many departments, and that lacking leaves them with little innate counters to something like jesus beam, but that by itself doesn't mean jesus beam needs a nerf. It means you need significant buffs. Most of the complaints come from DKs, and that doesn't really fly (pun ) when they're such a strong counter to the super majority of magplar damage on every other front. Everyone feels bad for stam sorcs. I really do hope that bone shield helps, even if only a little. I stopped playing mine a long time ago - it was once my main, the first character I rolled. /sadface

Rylana

So I am currently spreading this cancer in Cyrodiil on the catman. Spamming my three key, and pretty much only my three key (which is radiant destruction)

The number of sheer cheap kills I am getting (even won a 1v1 with it against a pretty trash shuffle exploit stam dk of renown)

This is ridiculously OP, and im specced for regen, not damage.

Joy_Division

KenaPKK wrote: »

I love how the forumplars mention all the "facts and specific counters" that they've cited, but leave out the fact that their counters are available to less than half of the class archetypes when radiant is used at long range or from behind other players.

Come to think of it, only a mageblade or a stamblade with decent magicka regen can consistently deal with radiant in real world combat situations like the one Rylana described.

If you are going to break the terms of service agreement you signed on the forums by spamming the same thread in multiple forums, at least try to make it objective.

What exactly is a screenshot of 8.25 seconds of combat where the person was killed by 24,000 damage from RD supposed to prove? That they were AFK? That they suck? That RD does 3K DPS?

1 shot horse-ganking is not to be tolerated? Why were you not crusading when this was happening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVpbx50v6kQ&amp;list=PLWqnQ2EfnFBgh9w8bVG6Zxox3_YrTHGGI&amp;index=8

Or is this somehow acceptable and to be applauded because it is, in your opinion, "skillful"?

Now you are trying to claim that only a NB can consistently deal with radiant in "real world" combat situations. Every magicka based class in the game has easy and efficient access to the best counter that is not negated by range: harness magicka. This does not get into the other things they can do such as purify, purge, streak away, or simply out heal it. The idea that "only a mageblade or a stamblade with decent magicka regen" can handle RD in open world cyrodiil is highly dubious. Far from struggling to defend against RD on my templar or sorcerer, I in fact prefer if my opponents use Jesus Beam against me: it does modest DPS, does not CC, has no debuff, tells me in advance how the templar will use her next two global cooldowns, and the spell tries to attack my strength (magicka pool/spell resist) rather than my weakness (stamina pool/physical resist). You want to claim I and all templars who defend this ability are biased. How is this a biased assessment? And it's not so much that I am "defending" Radiant Destruction as it is I am pointing out the flawed arguments you try to claim are facts.

Magicka based classes are ideally suited to handle a RD spamming templar. NBs and Templars have it easiest because their best defensive skill instantly ends the attack. Sorcerers are not far behind as shield stacking and mobility are things that even adept templars who actually know how to use RD have trouble killing. DK wings doesn't help vs. RD. But it helps against just about everything else and helps preserve their harness shield to specifically deal with RD. That's half the archetypes in cyrodiil. You already admit stam-blades can consistently deal with RD with decent regen, so that's 5 of the 8 archetypes ... so much for your "fact" that counters are available to less than half of the class archetypes.

Am I supposed to shed a tear for stam DKs that they can't dodge or reflect a channeled attack? If we want to argue about idiotic and simplistic game mechanics, how does an archetype that can reflect every ranged projectile in the game and press a button that 100% avoids every single targeted ability sans meteor not qualify? Is their only weakness supposed to be against players spamming impulse or heavy resto attacks against them. As it is, between the dodges, igneous shields, dodges, vigors, dodges, LOSes, dodges, and flaps, the only attacks actually hitting them are weak to modest stuff like lightning channels, PBAoEs, and RD, which Rally and Vigor can deal with provided it's not a mob chasing them. And as of next patch they can use bone shield. I hear a lot of stamina players say this defense is superfluous. No it's not. It is an ideal ability for a stam DK to use against RD in-between dodge rolling because wings already is protecting them Vs. projectiles and the shield will prevents their health from dropping and allow their HoTs to top them off while waiting for the dodge fatigue penalty to expire. It would be superfluous if dodge and wings prevented just about every single-target ability in the game from hitting them, which is what many of they seem to want for the sake of "balance."

And it's the magicka templars that are biased in this debate? How would these DKs feel if I argued that Reflective Scales should have a range limitation? They wouldn't like that would they? How ridiculous is it that a DK can just flap, flap, flap, and not just ignore every projectile, but return them back at the attacker ... without any possibility of a re-reflect - even those projectiles she can't even see?!? So for templars to prove their combat mettle and get a deserved "skillful" kill they have to close a gap but DKs can just flap away at any distance without having the slightest clue what is going on around them and not get hit? No, not buying it.

I actually don't have an issue with Reflective Scales. In fact, I think the 4 projectile limit should be reverted. DKs need this easy simple ability because This game is full of easy, simplistic mechanics. Smart healing. Instant stealth. Only ten abilities. Dodge 100% avoids the boss's big attack. One light attack required to get your ultimate. Purge. AoE caps. No cooldowns. Trivial resource recovery. Battlespirit. It's bear and pretzels. Not an in-depth demanding tactical combat simulation. I won't deny RD is easy and simple. But that's what the game is, that's what most of the abilities and mechanics are. I do not agree that somehow RD is anomalous and especially "zerg-baddie" friendly and somehow automatic reflects, group cleanses, stacking shields, etc., are not.


You can go right on ahead ignoring the context of the game, posting disingenuous screenshots, and keep telling us "facts" that are really your opinions and gameplay preferences. But I do not feel as if I am biased for rejecting them.

PrinceFabious

RD is too much. It's ridiculously strong when there are 1-2 people in a zurg just spamming it(i can see why @Zheg will take RD to the grave with him.) Maybe increase its cost? Lower the range? Make it morph of a ultimate? I was one of the first people to defend RD because its a counter to the shuffle exploiter wanna be 1vXers. But now that I see how easy it is to win group fights with it...come on..its just too cheap, too easy, and too strong for a non-ultimate skill. I wish Soul Assault had the execute instead of RD since its an ultimate.

KenaPKK

Zheg wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

OdinForge wrote: »

forumplars inc



You can't take away their radiant oppressionz, cuz their class is so weak. Templar is weak, it's always been weak. You can't kill anyone as a templar, we needs our oppressionz.

stahp itt

I never see any of the sane templars making this argument. If your reading comprehension is at such low levels that you aren't able to retain the almost bullet-point-like rundown explanations, then that actually starts to make a ton of sense for why you're all still so slow on the uptake.

Demonstrate actual broken numbers that cannot be achieved on any other glass cannon build and this "forumplar" will agree that the skill he almost never even uses should be rebalanced. I'm not defending the skill because we need it, I'm defending against the idiotic need for stam builds to feel like they should have zero counters and be able to take on insane numbers like 1.6-orsinium because of how broken their builds were. I'm defending against "nerf this because I'm able to cherry pick examples, ignore all of the other examples where it shows rational numbers, and don't ask too many questions about the guy that died, he was a full tank spec, I promise."

One month in and none of you have been able to demonstrate broken numbers against a reasonable build and mid-level of pvp competency. Not once. If you're actually capable of doing so, then do it. If you can't do it, then maybe it's because you've been dead wrong this whole time and accurately called out on your BS.

This thread below, meant to whine about jesus beam and show how 'broken' it is, showed RD as the last killing blow with an 8.3k CRIT, on an EXECUTE. It also showed 4 separate people each hitting him/her with RD for 1.5k to 2k EACH time. Surely such OP things need to be fixed! Surely you and the other stam builds aren't BSing all of us!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/264924/just-another-day-in-cyrodiil-right#latest

Go solo stamsorc for a day and come back telling me that jesus beam is fine... People will say I exaggerate, but believe me I dont: RD is responsible for about 80% of my deaths, because I rely on a bouncing HP bar, which is hardcountered by that abomination of a skill.

I am by no means invincible as a stamsorc, exactly 2 flash heals a minute - pot + rally, you can never keep up with the beam spams outnumbered. Outnumbered shouldnt mean insta death versus one skill. This skill renders any build not based on shields, cloak or flash heals void.

Please dont be so desperate to defend such an imbalanced skill, just because your class lacks in other departments.

In kena's other whine thread when we ran through the different classes, I made it a point to state that stam sorcs have no good defensive counter, and blamed Wrobel. As you advise, I would point out that stam sorc lacks in many departments, and that lacking leaves them with little innate counters to something like jesus beam, but that by itself doesn't mean jesus beam needs a nerf. It means you need significant buffs. Most of the complaints come from DKs, and that doesn't really fly (pun ) when they're such a strong counter to the super majority of magplar damage on every other front. Everyone feels bad for stam sorcs. I really do hope that bone shield helps, even if only a little. I stopped playing mine a long time ago - it was once my main, the first character I rolled. /sadface

But they can gap close and bash the templar! ...Oh wait... Not holding so tightly to your allegedly ever-present counterplay now, I see.

And Bone Shield won't change a thing. It'll just turn stam things getting pounded by radiant spam into pseudo magicka sorcs spamming shields for dear life as they try to either cross 30m to get to the templar or escape from his group's chase.

I'm glad that the more I preach this message, the more players with actual common sense come out of the woodwork. RD is the laughing stock of good players, the poster-skill of mindless zerglings, and the first skill to roll off the tongue of many a frustrated player when asked what needs nerfs next. Well, that and Dark Flare. Thank you @Rylana @PrinceFabious and all the others who've stepped up and commented here. I shall take the brunt of the public backlash if it gets this back in front of ZOS' attention.

As for Zheg and Joy, you've been amusing. We've had many laughs at your back and forth.

/bow2

DisgracefulMind

I think it's sad that the forums don't allow for anyone to express their opinions anymore without getting flamed or insulted or talked to in a condescending manner. Not everyone is going to agree on things, and no one is right or wrong. There are points from both sides that can be pulled together into a, perhaps, future compromise, but NO ONE is the end-all opinion of the entire ESO population.

All I've seen is this plethora of the same people acting as though their opinions are exalted.

No one is a martyr here; we're all playing a game and discussing possible balances in this game.

BOTH sides of the argument have good points, and, my own personal opinions on said argument aside, I think both sides of the argument need to be considered if ANY change is going to happen to RD. That's the thing with balancing - it can't be done from an extreme angle either way.

maxjapank

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I think it's sad that the forums don't allow for anyone to express their opinions anymore without getting flamed or insulted or talked to in a condescending manner. Not everyone is going to agree on things, and no one is right or wrong. There are points from both sides that can be pulled together into a, perhaps, future compromise, but NO ONE is the end-all opinion of the entire ESO population.

All I've seen is this plethora of the same people acting as though their opinions are exalted.

No one is a martyr here; we're all playing a game and discussing possible balances in this game.

BOTH sides of the argument have good points, and, my own personal opinions on said argument aside, I think both sides of the argument need to be considered if ANY change is going to happen to RD. That's the thing with balancing - it can't be done from an extreme angle either way.

The thing is that I don't see anything wrong with RD as is. It's just fine. So why should I compromise? All I keep seeing is the same poster starting thread after thread in an attempt to nerf something that doesn't need to be. It's sad. And frankly it angers me a bit. What a persistent .... the poster has become!

LizardThixvim

Just change the damage scaling from 50% as it is now to 30%

Wollust

Don't let it scale further up in damage while being channeled. If you cast it on 100%, you'll do that amount of damage for the whole channel, no matter how much health the target loses from other sources in the meantime.