Stamina Sorcerer Feedback Thread: Patch 2.4.3 Update - Crit surge now affected by Battle Spirit

Grao

Mettaricana wrote: »

I wanna ram this entire topic down their throats so we can get creative fixes to our class but at same time I doubt they'd listen if this was the only post on the entire forums

I have a document on my computer with comments on each skill's uses, ideas for changes, a priority list on changes and how each would affect different builds... I want to shove that on Wrobel's face, but I don't think he'd read it even if I did have a way to shove it on his face...

Jar_Ek

Ok so I tried vma on pts last night. I was in purple medium hunds with kena shoulder and bloodspawn head. I was about 20k health, 18k resists, 3.6k weapon damage and 40% crit.

I was using dw bloodthirst, blood craze, caltrops and critical surge. I had bound armour on and used hurricane and dark deal. Back bar I tried bow, 2h (including adding in rally).

The long and short was I died a lot.

It was working okay for the trash mobs (and incidentally was fine in ic sepwers), although I could dip low in health as long as something was dotted I was okay. When the boss spawned it went downhill fast.
3 clones plus the boss could not be healed through with surge + blood craze + bloodthirsty and dark deal is too slow for emergency healing.
As we have no survivability tools, it is at best problematic. Maybe I could've slotted bone shield (but stamina was already an issue), or used barrier or absorption negate morph.

The big problem I had with surge is that there was no way to recover from multiple big hits (ie getting 2 hits in a second). We have no emergency survivability skills or means to get some breathing space (maybe streak would've helped but you can rarely hit all the scattered clones) to allow critical surge to actually do its healing. Live surge was at least immediate in the heals and one big heal could keep you alive... Pts not so much.

Grao

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Ok so I tried vma on pts last night. I was in purple medium hunds with kena shoulder and bloodspawn head. I was about 20k health, 18k resists, 3.6k weapon damage and 40% crit.

I was using dw bloodthirst, blood craze, caltrops and critical surge. I had bound armour on and used hurricane and dark deal. Back bar I tried bow, 2h (including adding in rally).

The long and short was I died a lot.

It was working okay for the trash mobs (and incidentally was fine in ic sepwers), although I could dip low in health as long as something was dotted I was okay. When the boss spawned it went downhill fast.
3 clones plus the boss could not be healed through with surge + blood craze + bloodthirsty and dark deal is too slow for emergency healing.
As we have no survivability tools, it is at best problematic. Maybe I could've slotted bone shield (but stamina was already an issue), or used barrier or absorption negate morph.

The big problem I had with surge is that there was no way to recover from multiple big hits (ie getting 2 hits in a second). We have no emergency survivability skills or means to get some breathing space (maybe streak would've helped but you can rarely hit all the scattered clones) to allow critical surge to actually do its healing. Live surge was at least immediate in the heals and one big heal could keep you alive... Pts not so much.

@Wrobel will stick to 'you should have used Dark Deal more efficiently'. Willing to bet on it... Actually, I think one of the reasons for this considerable nerf to Surge is to force us into using Useless Exchange. For some reason I can't comprehend he is obsessed with keeping that skill in our kit even though it has been heavily criticized from day one, even in Beta. I do believe people wanted Crystal Shard to replace this piece of crap ability instead of Repulse...

XaXa

Theres a new topic about stam sorcs here on the pts forums created by Lynx. I have also created a thread in the combat mechanics forums (not very busy over there ) with the intention of spreading the message around.


It is my hope that since the flamers have died down this new thread will remain a constructive place that doesnt resort to insulting devs or talking about surge.

While it is most likely to late to get any really constructive comments to the combat team. I hope they see the new thread and our odeas there without having to wade through a bunch of frustrated posters. (Myself included)

Jar_Ek

If dark deal is to be used more effectively then it needs to have a shorter cast time or we need better defensive abilities to allow us to survive during the cast. Currently using dark deal in vma unless shielded for 15k+ (not happening on a stamina sorcerer) is a death sentence if you're low on health... which occurs due to burst. It's the cast time that kills the ability - if it was instant and returned the heals over 1s or was a very, very short channel (1s) then it might work. But 1s with no defense is too dangerous for serious use.

Grao

XaXa wrote: »

Theres a new topic about stam sorcs here on the pts forums created by Lynx. I have also created a thread in the combat mechanics forums (not very busy over there ) with the intention of spreading the message around.


It is my hope that since the flamers have died down this new thread will remain a constructive place that doesnt resort to insulting devs or talking about surge.

While it is most likely to late to get any really constructive comments to the combat team. I hope they see the new thread and our odeas there without having to wade through a bunch of frustrated posters. (Myself included)

The fire is dying out because we are all losing hope anything will be done about Sorcerers until the next large patch. Those staying are trying to console them selves they will not be able to use their sorcerers as their mains and those leaving for other games... Well, they are cutting ties and losing interest.

Jar_Ek wrote: »

If dark deal is to be used more effectively then it needs to have a shorter cast time or we need better defensive abilities to allow us to survive during the cast. Currently using dark deal in vma unless shielded for 15k+ (not happening on a stamina sorcerer) is a death sentence if you're low on health... which occurs due to burst. It's the cast time that kills the ability - if it was instant and returned the heals over 1s or was a very, very short channel (1s) then it might work. But 1s with no defense is too dangerous for serious use.

Thus why I say the ability is useless and should be completely reworked. They won't lower the cast time because they are afraid of Permanent shielding blocking in PvP, so the fact the skill returns resources prevents us from getting a class heal that is not pet reliant...

Ryuho

I wish they changed atronach to make it more valid, or even completly revamp it to help stamina sorcs..

Instead of atro we could get:

Call upon mighty Atronach power and summon

Cyclon - summons strong shock wind around caster stunning and dealig X initial shock dmg and x shock dmg every 1 sec for 4 sec

Tornado - dot effect last longer 6 sec and increased initial dmg

Taifun - ability deals now physical dmg and have increased radius

Derra

I´m just quoting because i love the idea.

acw37162 wrote: »

Bound Armamaments;

I would like to see this skill get the relentless focus treatment;

While active as a toggle; every time you take damage your daderic armor is charged with dark energy after "X" number of charges you can activate daderic explosion at the cost of "Y" stamina it magica depending on the morph.

The stamina morph would physical damage and the magica morph lightening damage.

The fade roc explosion could be any effect the developers choose;

Could be a player centered localized explosion
Could be a player centered or cast localized aoe DOT circle or square
Could be a thrown fade tic bomb or projectile
Or whatever fits

But the skill becomes more active

And a physical ultimate

STEVIL

acw37162 wrote: »

Bound Armamaments;

I would like to see this skill get the relentless focus treatment;

While active as a toggle; every time you take damage your daderic armor is charged with dark energy after "X" number of charges you can activate daderic explosion at the cost of "Y" stamina it magica depending on the morph.

The stamina morph would physical damage and the magica morph lightening damage.

The fade roc explosion could be any effect the developers choose;

Could be a player centered localized explosion
Could be a player centered or cast localized aoe DOT circle or square
Could be a thrown fade tic bomb or projectile
Or whatever fits

But the skill becomes more active

And a physical ultimate

Actually thats the opposite of RF. In Rzf you charge it by spending sctions on light/hvy which arent mega-hitters but get big hit at end. Here you get the payoff for free.

But frankly either could work. The free could be normal damage.

But maybe bound could proc a dot when struck instead of buildup. Its another surge feeder.

Grao

Ryuho wrote: »

I wish they changed atronach to make it more valid, or even completly revamp it to help stamina sorcs..

Instead of atro we could get:

Call upon mighty Atronach power and summon

Cyclon - summons strong shock wind around caster stunning and dealig X initial shock dmg and x shock dmg every 1 sec for 4 sec

Tornado - dot effect last longer 6 sec and increased initial dmg

Taifun - ability deals now physical dmg and have increased radius

*goes hunt down his document with all the comments and suggestions he has for sorcerers*

Summon Storm Atronach: Summon a storm atronach at the target location. The atronach's arrival deals X Shock Damage and stuns nearby enemies for 3 seconds. The atronach cannot move but attacks the nearest enemy.
An ally can activate Charged Lightning, giving both the ally and the atronach Major Berserk, increasing their damage by 25% for 8 seconds.
Greater Storm Atronach: Summon a storm atronach at the target location. The atronach's arrival deals X Shock Damage and stuns nearby enemies for 3 seconds. The atronach cannot move but attacks the nearest enemy.
An ally can activate Empowering Lightning, giving all allies in range Major Berserk, increasing their damage by 25% for Y seconds.
Summon Charged Atronach: Summon a wind atronach at the target location. The atronach's arrival deals X Physical Damage and stuns nearby enemies for 3 seconds. The atronach cannot move but damages all enemies in its vicinity.
An ally can activate Storm Gales, giving all allies in range Major Protection reducing their damage taken by 30% for Y seconds.

Comments: Currently neither Morphs for this Ultimate do enough damage or have enough utility to justify their usage. After reading several different ideas for this pet I believe this changes would give both iterations of the Atronach its uses both in PvP and PvE.
Yes, Major Berserk is an incredibly powerful buff, but by diminishing its duration we can control how powerful of an Ultimate Greater Atronach would be. The fact the pet it self will no longer be granted the buff also helps contribute to balance out the ability.
As for the Charged Atronach, it would supply Sorcerers with a much needed Mitigation Ultimate with the added bonus of doing some AoE Physical Damage (As per requested by Stamina Builds) . Again for this, damage done and duration of the buff can be lowered or increased to balance the Ultimate's power.

Jar_Ek

I'm not a fan of charging an ability through being hit... it's too out of our control.

luxfreak

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Ok so I tried vma on pts last night. I was in purple medium hunds with kena shoulder and bloodspawn head. I was about 20k health, 18k resists, 3.6k weapon damage and 40% crit.

I was using dw bloodthirst, blood craze, caltrops and critical surge. I had bound armour on and used hurricane and dark deal. Back bar I tried bow, 2h (including adding in rally).

The long and short was I died a lot.

It was working okay for the trash mobs (and incidentally was fine in ic sepwers), although I could dip low in health as long as something was dotted I was okay. When the boss spawned it went downhill fast.
3 clones plus the boss could not be healed through with surge + blood craze + bloodthirsty and dark deal is too slow for emergency healing.
As we have no survivability tools, it is at best problematic. Maybe I could've slotted bone shield (but stamina was already an issue), or used barrier or absorption negate morph.

The big problem I had with surge is that there was no way to recover from multiple big hits (ie getting 2 hits in a second). We have no emergency survivability skills or means to get some breathing space (maybe streak would've helped but you can rarely hit all the scattered clones) to allow critical surge to actually do its healing. Live surge was at least immediate in the heals and one big heal could keep you alive... Pts not so much.

Simple Answer: Burst him Down Faster. Should be possible to kill him with only 2 Adds, maybe even faster.

Grao

luxfreak wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Ok so I tried vma on pts last night. I was in purple medium hunds with kena shoulder and bloodspawn head. I was about 20k health, 18k resists, 3.6k weapon damage and 40% crit.

I was using dw bloodthirst, blood craze, caltrops and critical surge. I had bound armour on and used hurricane and dark deal. Back bar I tried bow, 2h (including adding in rally).

The long and short was I died a lot.

It was working okay for the trash mobs (and incidentally was fine in ic sepwers), although I could dip low in health as long as something was dotted I was okay. When the boss spawned it went downhill fast.
3 clones plus the boss could not be healed through with surge + blood craze + bloodthirsty and dark deal is too slow for emergency healing.
As we have no survivability tools, it is at best problematic. Maybe I could've slotted bone shield (but stamina was already an issue), or used barrier or absorption negate morph.

The big problem I had with surge is that there was no way to recover from multiple big hits (ie getting 2 hits in a second). We have no emergency survivability skills or means to get some breathing space (maybe streak would've helped but you can rarely hit all the scattered clones) to allow critical surge to actually do its healing. Live surge was at least immediate in the heals and one big heal could keep you alive... Pts not so much.

Simple Answer: Burst him Down Faster. Should be possible to kill him with only 2 Adds, maybe even faster.

Have you tried it on the PTS to say that? Sorcerer kit has been gutted in many ways and the need to invest more skill slots to abilities that can heal you + having to spend more time healing your self, all affect your DPS, lowering it considerably. There is a reason experienced players that are in the leaderboard are having issues going through content they can do pretty well in Live...

luxfreak

Grao wrote: »

luxfreak wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Ok so I tried vma on pts last night. I was in purple medium hunds with kena shoulder and bloodspawn head. I was about 20k health, 18k resists, 3.6k weapon damage and 40% crit.

I was using dw bloodthirst, blood craze, caltrops and critical surge. I had bound armour on and used hurricane and dark deal. Back bar I tried bow, 2h (including adding in rally).

The long and short was I died a lot.

It was working okay for the trash mobs (and incidentally was fine in ic sepwers), although I could dip low in health as long as something was dotted I was okay. When the boss spawned it went downhill fast.
3 clones plus the boss could not be healed through with surge + blood craze + bloodthirsty and dark deal is too slow for emergency healing.
As we have no survivability tools, it is at best problematic. Maybe I could've slotted bone shield (but stamina was already an issue), or used barrier or absorption negate morph.

The big problem I had with surge is that there was no way to recover from multiple big hits (ie getting 2 hits in a second). We have no emergency survivability skills or means to get some breathing space (maybe streak would've helped but you can rarely hit all the scattered clones) to allow critical surge to actually do its healing. Live surge was at least immediate in the heals and one big heal could keep you alive... Pts not so much.

Simple Answer: Burst him Down Faster. Should be possible to kill him with only 2 Adds, maybe even faster.

Have you tried it on the PTS to say that? Sorcerer kit has been gutted in many ways and the need to invest more skill slots to abilities that can heal you + having to spend more time healing your self, all affect your DPS, lowering it considerably. There is a reason experienced players that are in the leaderboard are having issues going through content they can do pretty well in Live...

That may be true for the Magika Sorc, but this is a Thread for the Stam Sorc, and the Stam Sorc, at least the way i played the first Boss, should have it more easy to Survive now.
For you to be happy, i gonna log in today, gonna make my stam sorc template and play the first arenas im vmsa with it.
I'll try to record it and post it for you, happy?

exiledtyrant

That is actually a viable strategy for the first boss. The only mobs that matter during the first boss fight are the casters. The Dks should die from hurricane and atronach / dawnbringer depending on what ult you use. I've gotten up to frozen ring round 4 so far on The PTS. Then again I don't do VMA outside of PTS testing. I didn't like it when it was implemented during the first testing. I don't like it now. If I was willing to use bow or two handed more often and try more builds it may actually make some stages easier than others. Double dual wield is like pulling teeth though.

Grao

luxfreak wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

luxfreak wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Ok so I tried vma on pts last night. I was in purple medium hunds with kena shoulder and bloodspawn head. I was about 20k health, 18k resists, 3.6k weapon damage and 40% crit.

I was using dw bloodthirst, blood craze, caltrops and critical surge. I had bound armour on and used hurricane and dark deal. Back bar I tried bow, 2h (including adding in rally).

The long and short was I died a lot.

It was working okay for the trash mobs (and incidentally was fine in ic sepwers), although I could dip low in health as long as something was dotted I was okay. When the boss spawned it went downhill fast.
3 clones plus the boss could not be healed through with surge + blood craze + bloodthirsty and dark deal is too slow for emergency healing.
As we have no survivability tools, it is at best problematic. Maybe I could've slotted bone shield (but stamina was already an issue), or used barrier or absorption negate morph.

The big problem I had with surge is that there was no way to recover from multiple big hits (ie getting 2 hits in a second). We have no emergency survivability skills or means to get some breathing space (maybe streak would've helped but you can rarely hit all the scattered clones) to allow critical surge to actually do its healing. Live surge was at least immediate in the heals and one big heal could keep you alive... Pts not so much.

Simple Answer: Burst him Down Faster. Should be possible to kill him with only 2 Adds, maybe even faster.

Have you tried it on the PTS to say that? Sorcerer kit has been gutted in many ways and the need to invest more skill slots to abilities that can heal you + having to spend more time healing your self, all affect your DPS, lowering it considerably. There is a reason experienced players that are in the leaderboard are having issues going through content they can do pretty well in Live...

That may be true for the Magika Sorc, but this is a Thread for the Stam Sorc, and the Stam Sorc, at least the way i played the first Boss, should have it more easy to Survive now.
For you to be happy, i gonna log in today, gonna make my stam sorc template and play the first arenas im vmsa with it.
I'll try to record it and post it for you, happy?

I will gladly watch what you post, if you post it. I am sure it will make for an interesting analyses, you managing to complete the fight or not. Please record how many times you die before finally succeeding though as that too is important data for analyses.

Grao

exiledtyrant wrote: »

That is actually a viable strategy for the first boss. The only mobs that matter during the first boss fight are the casters. The Dks should die from hurricane and atronach / dawnbringer depending on what ult you use. I've gotten up to frozen ring round 4 so far on The PTS. Then again I don't do VMA outside of PTS testing. I didn't like it when it was implemented during the first testing. I don't like it now. If I was willing to use bow or two handed more often and try more builds it may actually make some stages easier than others. Double dual wield is like pulling teeth though.

At least you do have a few options on weapons XD Magicka Sorcerers are now tied to a Destro Staff and a Resto staff. Zero Build flexibility... DB will be such an awesome patch to be a sorcerer.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Storm Calling

• Hurricane (Lightning Form morph): Updated the visual effects for this morph based on your feedback.
• Surge: This ability and its morphs will now critically heal based on your Weapon Critical or Spell Critical, whichever is higher. We also fixed an issue where the heal from this ability and its morphs was not being reduced by Battle Spirit.

Note that most of the replies in this poll happened BEFORE we were sure that Crit surge was going to be further reduced by battle spirit. Please also note that a majority of us feel that the issues affecting stamina sorcerer go so far beyond crit surge, and dislike that the assumption that stam sorc can be fixed or improved solely by tweaking this ability.

PTS testing Patch 2.4.3: Critical Surge in PvP (with battle spirit nerf) Character has 27 points into blessed (10% healing given) and 46 Points into quick recovery (10% healing taken)

Even though Crit Surge doesn't heal for the entirety of the damage done, there still appears to be a cooldown.



What is the point of allowing DOTs to proc Crit surge if the cooldown still eats all the heals?!?!?!?!

The cooldown put in place only because of DOTs, now that the ability doesn't heal big on big hits, we still have a cooldown? That is the worst of both worlds.




Edit: Updates from Patch 2.4.2


Dark Magic

• Dark Exchange: Increased the amount of health restored from this ability and its morphs by 100%.

Storm Calling

• Disintegrate: Renamed this passive ability to Implosion. This passive ability now also grants all Physical Damage you deal a chance to instantly pulverize low health enemies, dealing additional Physical Damage to them. Updated this passive’s tooltip to indicate what the health threshold is for it to trigger.
• Energized: This passive ability now also increases your Physical Damage done in addition to the Shock Damage done.
• Hurricane (Lightning Form morph): This morph now also grants the Minor Expedition buff at all times while it is active.
• Surge: This ability and its morphs now restore a flat value of health whenever you deal a Critical Strike. It will now also proc on any Critical Strike instead of only direct damage Critical Strikes, but can only restore health once every second.

Discussion of new changes in this thread starts HERE
I will continue to update the Issues and Solutions sections (posts #2 and #3) when the feedback gets a chance to settle a bit.




@Wrobel In your "Dark Brotherhood Combat Changes" thread you said the most helpful feedback is supported by "specific details, math, and logic." This is my attempt to achieve some sort of "meeting of the minds" between the Development team and the Stamina Sorc Community.

To everyone else that likes playing stam sorc, you can help by adding links to all your previous suggestions here so we can all have them in one place. I will update this initial post once people start contributing. Let's keep this thread focused on Stamina Sorcs and keep the Hurricane memes at bay. We have a lot of work to do so let's get started.


PART ONE: Sorcerer Stamina Builds vs the stamina builds of other classes: Why Sorcerer doesn't match up.

Here are the four criteria that make certain classes have strong stamina builds in ESO and why the proposed changes to stamina sorcerer are not yet enough to be considered a serious endgame stamina build for PvE or PvP.

A stamina build, by definition uses stamina based skills (primarily) for DPS and magicka skills (primarily) for utility. The classes that have the strongest stamina builds have at least one CLASS SKILL (or passive) in each of the following categories:

1. An instant cast, CLASS BASED ability that scales of stamina and does PHYSICAL damage.
2. A magika based class utility ability that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
3. A class based passive that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
4. An class ability that reduces the enemies physical resistance

If you look at what the other classes have in these four categories, you can see why the Sorcerers fall so short in stamina performance and why the proposed changes (i.e. Hurricane) not only do very little to bridge the gap but actually decrease Stam Sorc utility (lighting form).

Templar Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage: Biting Jabs/ Stam Javelin
2. Stam Support Utility: Repentance (free)
3. Passives that support stamina: Balanced warrior
4. Armor Debuff: Power of the light

Dragonknight Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage:Burning Breath, Unstable Flame, Dragon Leap (Ultimate)
2. Stam Support Utility:Green Dragon Blood, Flames of Oblivion, igneous weapons
3. Passives that support stamina:Battle Roar, Mountain's Blessing, Helping Hands
4. Armor Debuff:Burning Breath, Corrosive Armor

Nightblade Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Killer's Blade, Ambush, power extraction, Surprise attack, and now Incapacitating Strike (ultimate)
2. Stam Support Utility: Relentless Focus, siphoning attacks, power extractions, double take
3. Passives that support stamina:Master Assassin, pressure points, hemorrhage, refreshing shadows(30% stam regen with no need to slot anything)
4. Armor Debuff:Mark Target, Surprise attack

Looking at this list it is immediately clear which classes have the strongest stamina build and why. Now lets apply these four criteria to sorcerer:

Sorcerer (Current)
1. Direct Damage Class Based Stamina Skill: NOTHING except Hurricane, which is a huge Utility Loss (see below)
2. Stam Support Utility: Nothing that returns stamina. Bound Armaments (takes two slots for 8% max stamina and paltry armor), Dark Deal (very hard to use in combat), Boundless Storm (mobility utility), Critical Surge
3. Passives that support stamina: unholy knowledge (5% stam cost reduction), Expert Mage - Increase spell/weapon damage 2% per sorc ability (Now outshadowed by 3% fighters guild passive) Daedric Protection (20% health and stam recovery but ONLY when Daedric summoning ability is slotted)
4. Armor Debuff: NOTHING

Calling @ZOS_GinaBruno to try to get some Developer attention to this thread. @ZOS_RichLambert We could really use a /lurk on this. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

Also calling the rest of the stam sorc community to help me link all the previous suggestions we have posted all over the net. Try to keep this thread positive, on track, and not to argue among ourselves and keep this discussion civil and factual. @Ajax_22 @Erock25 @PainfulFAFA @Emma_Eunjung @FENGRUSH @Dyride @ahzek @Jar_Ek @Dracane @mistermutiny89 @Huggalump @Spearblade @Tyrannitar Please link anyone else I missed.

Edit 1: Thank you everyone for contributing. Click HERE to view Eric Wrobel's Response to this thread. Thanks to the developers for reading and responding.

Refreshing Shadows was nerfed hard now it's 15% recovery to all three. Magic don't need help with recovery they never did, health recovery is a pointless and that stamima 30% has been their for 2 years. Also 15% cheaper ultimate and stamina and magic cost reductions for sloting nothing we all have a passives that's bad ass with no need to slot a power don't ignore yours cause you in the mine.

You know sloting your ultimate which counts grants that buff right? Your mad cause the Battle Spirt debuff which hurt every other PvP heal yes please be mad that a debuff that counts of everyone else hits your heals.

You need the make you case for you class based solely on your class you can't get the burst of Nightblades, heals of Templars or the undying Tanky tank power of Dragon Knights. Trying trying to throw other classes under the bus is only going to cause rage with the other classes.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

For the record I fully support all classes having viable stamina, magic and tank build the way you are going about is not the way.

CP5

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Storm Calling

• Hurricane (Lightning Form morph): Updated the visual effects for this morph based on your feedback.
• Surge: This ability and its morphs will now critically heal based on your Weapon Critical or Spell Critical, whichever is higher. We also fixed an issue where the heal from this ability and its morphs was not being reduced by Battle Spirit.

Note that most of the replies in this poll happened BEFORE we were sure that Crit surge was going to be further reduced by battle spirit. Please also note that a majority of us feel that the issues affecting stamina sorcerer go so far beyond crit surge, and dislike that the assumption that stam sorc can be fixed or improved solely by tweaking this ability.

PTS testing Patch 2.4.3: Critical Surge in PvP (with battle spirit nerf) Character has 27 points into blessed (10% healing given) and 46 Points into quick recovery (10% healing taken)

Even though Crit Surge doesn't heal for the entirety of the damage done, there still appears to be a cooldown.



What is the point of allowing DOTs to proc Crit surge if the cooldown still eats all the heals?!?!?!?!

The cooldown put in place only because of DOTs, now that the ability doesn't heal big on big hits, we still have a cooldown? That is the worst of both worlds.




Edit: Updates from Patch 2.4.2


Dark Magic

• Dark Exchange: Increased the amount of health restored from this ability and its morphs by 100%.

Storm Calling

• Disintegrate: Renamed this passive ability to Implosion. This passive ability now also grants all Physical Damage you deal a chance to instantly pulverize low health enemies, dealing additional Physical Damage to them. Updated this passive’s tooltip to indicate what the health threshold is for it to trigger.
• Energized: This passive ability now also increases your Physical Damage done in addition to the Shock Damage done.
• Hurricane (Lightning Form morph): This morph now also grants the Minor Expedition buff at all times while it is active.
• Surge: This ability and its morphs now restore a flat value of health whenever you deal a Critical Strike. It will now also proc on any Critical Strike instead of only direct damage Critical Strikes, but can only restore health once every second.

Discussion of new changes in this thread starts HERE
I will continue to update the Issues and Solutions sections (posts #2 and #3) when the feedback gets a chance to settle a bit.




Wrobel In your "Dark Brotherhood Combat Changes" thread you said the most helpful feedback is supported by "specific details, math, and logic." This is my attempt to achieve some sort of "meeting of the minds" between the Development team and the Stamina Sorc Community.

To everyone else that likes playing stam sorc, you can help by adding links to all your previous suggestions here so we can all have them in one place. I will update this initial post once people start contributing. Let's keep this thread focused on Stamina Sorcs and keep the Hurricane memes at bay. We have a lot of work to do so let's get started.


PART ONE: Sorcerer Stamina Builds vs the stamina builds of other classes: Why Sorcerer doesn't match up.

Here are the four criteria that make certain classes have strong stamina builds in ESO and why the proposed changes to stamina sorcerer are not yet enough to be considered a serious endgame stamina build for PvE or PvP.

A stamina build, by definition uses stamina based skills (primarily) for DPS and magicka skills (primarily) for utility. The classes that have the strongest stamina builds have at least one CLASS SKILL (or passive) in each of the following categories:

1. An instant cast, CLASS BASED ability that scales of stamina and does PHYSICAL damage.
2. A magika based class utility ability that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
3. A class based passive that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
4. An class ability that reduces the enemies physical resistance

If you look at what the other classes have in these four categories, you can see why the Sorcerers fall so short in stamina performance and why the proposed changes (i.e. Hurricane) not only do very little to bridge the gap but actually decrease Stam Sorc utility (lighting form).

Templar Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage: Biting Jabs/ Stam Javelin
2. Stam Support Utility: Repentance (free)
3. Passives that support stamina: Balanced warrior
4. Armor Debuff: Power of the light

Dragonknight Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage:Burning Breath, Unstable Flame, Dragon Leap (Ultimate)
2. Stam Support Utility:Green Dragon Blood, Flames of Oblivion, igneous weapons
3. Passives that support stamina:Battle Roar, Mountain's Blessing, Helping Hands
4. Armor Debuff:Burning Breath, Corrosive Armor

Nightblade Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Killer's Blade, Ambush, power extraction, Surprise attack, and now Incapacitating Strike (ultimate)
2. Stam Support Utility: Relentless Focus, siphoning attacks, power extractions, double take
3. Passives that support stamina:Master Assassin, pressure points, hemorrhage, refreshing shadows(30% stam regen with no need to slot anything)
4. Armor Debuff:Mark Target, Surprise attack

Looking at this list it is immediately clear which classes have the strongest stamina build and why. Now lets apply these four criteria to sorcerer:

Sorcerer (Current)
1. Direct Damage Class Based Stamina Skill: NOTHING except Hurricane, which is a huge Utility Loss (see below)
2. Stam Support Utility: Nothing that returns stamina. Bound Armaments (takes two slots for 8% max stamina and paltry armor), Dark Deal (very hard to use in combat), Boundless Storm (mobility utility), Critical Surge
3. Passives that support stamina: unholy knowledge (5% stam cost reduction), Expert Mage - Increase spell/weapon damage 2% per sorc ability (Now outshadowed by 3% fighters guild passive) Daedric Protection (20% health and stam recovery but ONLY when Daedric summoning ability is slotted)
4. Armor Debuff: NOTHING

Calling ZOS_GinaBruno to try to get some Developer attention to this thread. ZOS_RichLambert We could really use a /lurk on this. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

Also calling the rest of the stam sorc community to help me link all the previous suggestions we have posted all over the net. Try to keep this thread positive, on track, and not to argue among ourselves and keep this discussion civil and factual. Ajax_22 Erock25 PainfulFAFA Emma_Eunjung FENGRUSH Dyride ahzek Jar_Ek Dracane mistermutiny89 Huggalump Spearblade Tyrannitar Please link anyone else I missed.

Edit 1: Thank you everyone for contributing. Click HERE to view Eric Wrobel's Response to this thread. Thanks to the developers for reading and responding.

Refreshing Shadows was nerfed hard now it's 15% recovery to all three. Magic don't need help with recovery they never did, health recovery is a pointless and that stamima 30% has been their for 2 years. Also 15% cheaper ultimate and stamina and magic cost reductions for sloting nothing we all have a passives that's bad ass with no need to slot a power don't ignore yours cause you in the mine.

You know sloting your ultimate which counts grants that buff right? Your mad cause the Battle Spirt debuff which hurt every other PvP heal yes please be mad that a debuff that counts of everyone else hits your heals.

You need the make you case for you class based solely on your class you can't get the burst of Nightblades, heals of Templars or the undying Tanky tank power of Dragon Knights. Trying trying to throw other classes under the bus is only going to cause rage with the other classes.

Its been that way for a while now, and the passive started out as 10% stam regen for a short duration after casting a shadow skill, so its still much stronger than before. And need I bring up the sorcerer passive capacitor (10% magicka regen only) or dk's elder dragon (5% health regen per dragonic power skill slotted, thus needing 3 on each bar to match this passive)? That passive is, in its current form, very powerful, and I would suggest not using it as an example of a 'weak nb passive'.

Jar_Ek

code65536 wrote: »

The problems with Surge are complicated because Wrobel has stated that he does want Surge to work with DoTs. That seems to be the main driving factor behind this change, esp. since for DW stamsorc builds, the main DPS spammable is a channel (which the game classifies as a DoT). But if Surge were to work for DoTs, then it'll need a cooldown. But if it needs a cooldown, then it needs to be a predetermined value, otherwise, you run into the problem of a small bundle of damage "stealing" the Surge from a larger bundle--e.g., a small tick from Lightning Form might get the Surge for that 1s cooldown period instead of a frag that lands a fraction of a second later.

Essentially, if ZOS wants Surge to work with DoTs, then a flat-value cooldown system is what they have to go with. And that's what we have. And it is inadequate.

Problem 1: Getting the most out of Surge now requires consistent crit uptime, but magicka sorcs have a limited DoT toolkit.

Getting a crit every 1s cooldown is only reasonable under controlled environments, like group PvE where you have a tank holding a boss steady and the player can concentrate on dealing damage. In solo or in PvP, there will be periods when no damage is being done because you are buffing, re-warding, positioning, etc. This used to not be a problem because the burst heals from Surge made up for the periods of low uptime, but those burst heals are now gone.

This can be mitigated somewhat by keeping a DoT ticking, but magicka sorcs have no fast-ticking stick-on-target DoTs at their disposal. Of the class abilities, Liquid Lightning and Lighting Form are both position-sensitive DoTs. The only reasonably useful stick-on-target DoT is Destructive Touch, but the sorc's limited bar space means that using this still will require sacrificing other important skills. In contrast, magblades have Cripple, maplars have Sun Fire, and mDKs have Searing Strike and Fiery Breath. Magicka sorcs are the only class without any stick-on-target class DoTs, yet this change to Surge strongly favors the use of DoTs.

At least with stamina builds, there are multiple options for non-class DoTs. But for magicka builds, their DoTs are of limited usefulness outside of group PvE where a tank can help with positioning. But Surge is primarily a tool for solo survivability--in groups, sorcs usually just rely on the healer.

Problem 2: The healing from Surge no longer scales up in AoE encounters, even though incoming damage scales up in AoE encounters.

A Templar's Sweeps will heal the more targets that they're hitting. A DK's cast of Inhale heals for more if more targets are hit. A nightblade's cast of Sap heals for more if more targets are hit. And on Live, a sorc casting Impulse or Steel Tornado will get more chances at healing the more enemies that are hit.

This scaling of heals is important because the amount of incoming damage also scales up in AoE fights.

Problem 3: The lack of burst healing penalizes unfairly strategies that forgo a steady stream of damage in favor of setting up for a burst.

One of the things that I like doing in vMA is laying down a minefield and then luring a group of enemies (or one large enemy) through it. The time I spend laying the field and positioning is usually time where I'm not doing much damage. But this time spent setting up usually nets me a pretty good payoff in terms of the damage that I ultimately do, and the heals that I get from it--making up for the healing that I wasn't getting during that setup.

This will now be a much riskier strategy, as a boss that runs through the minefield will get me just a single 2K heal instead of multiple large heals.

Problem 4: In general, the healing from the new Surge is substantially less than the healing from the old Surge.

This is a result of a combination of all the problems listed above. You can't go run content using the old Surge, see an average HPS of 2-3K, and say that a 2-3K flat heal per second is sufficient.

Under the old Surge, you had bursts that could make up for periods of no uptime. The poor DoT toolkit and the basic realities of actual combat means that you can't realistically get full uptime of a crit per second.

Problem 5: The new Surge LIMITS CHOICE.

Ultimately, this is the biggest overarching problem of the new Surge.

First, the inadequacy of Surge means that you'll need other heals in addition to it. Whereas destro/destro, destro/DW, destro/1HS, and destro/resto were all valid options for a magicka sorc in vMA, the changes to Surge mean that we must now use destro/resto. Sorcs also suffer from limited bar space due to the Bound Armor toggle. We now have to devote an extra bar spot--when we are already so short on them--for healing. This limits freedom and choice in playstyle.

Second, if we want to get the most out of Surge, we now must use a particular play style where we are doing a consistent stream of damage. This is simply unrealistic in places like vMA and it also penalizes strategies that favor bursts of damage (and heals) instead of a steady stream of them. This limits freedom and choice in playstyle.

How not to fix Surge:

The easiest fix would be to simply tweak the flat value of Surge. You can bump up the flat value and/or make it scale with player stats such that, on average, it provides a similar average HPS as the old Surge.

But this solution is fraught with problems. For example, increasing the flat value high enough such that it still heals the same as before in an AoE encounter would require a flat value that's too high for a single-target encounter. A flat value that keeps the same average healing as the old Surge in a lull-then-a-burst scenario would require a flat value that's too high in a steady-damage scenario.

The really nice thing about the old Surge was that, in a way, it was self-balancing and self-scaling. A flat value heal loses the kind of self-scaling that we used to have, and you simply can't reach a good balance for one type of scenario without unbalancing another type.

How Surge should be fixed:

Surge has two morphs. Please take advantage of this.

1. Have one morph be the new behavior, where it works on any kind of damage, including DoTs, and it returns a flat value with a cooldown.
2. Have another morph be the old behavior, where it returns a variable amount on direct damage, can burst, and has no cooldown.
3. Give both morphs Major Savagery and Major Sorcery, so players choose the morph based on their desired combat strategy, not based on whether they are magicka or stamina.
4. Add a limit to the maximum heal from the "old" morph. For example, "40% of the damage done, up to 35% of the caster's maximum health." This will address edge cases where the old Surge could get ridiculous, such as when a sorc pops overload and essentially becomes unkillable, and making the limit health-based is also a nice boost to the usefulness of the health stat.

(Also, I would strongly urge that the flat value for the flat value morph not be hard-coded as it is now, but scalable with a player's stats; all other heals function this way, and it makes the flat value morph more resilient to future changes in player power levels.)

@Wrobel Please consider these suggestions. I know Surge is a difficult balancing act, and there is merit in your wanting to make Surge work with DoTs (and Rapid Strike in particular) and also reining in the edge cases like Surge during Overload. But the current approach is just too penalizing and too rigid in terms of the options available to the player. A more surgical approach, where you offer both flavors of Surge and address edge case issues separately is preferable to taking a sledgehammer approach that creates as many problems than it solves.

Just because it's a great post

XaXa

^ its so beautiful... the perfect post.

/kowtow

Grao

And it starts.. ESO Live. Lets hope they announce Sorcerer overhaul!

luxfreak

Grao wrote: »

luxfreak wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

luxfreak wrote: »

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Ok so I tried vma on pts last night. I was in purple medium hunds with kena shoulder and bloodspawn head. I was about 20k health, 18k resists, 3.6k weapon damage and 40% crit.

I was using dw bloodthirst, blood craze, caltrops and critical surge. I had bound armour on and used hurricane and dark deal. Back bar I tried bow, 2h (including adding in rally).

The long and short was I died a lot.

It was working okay for the trash mobs (and incidentally was fine in ic sepwers), although I could dip low in health as long as something was dotted I was okay. When the boss spawned it went downhill fast.
3 clones plus the boss could not be healed through with surge + blood craze + bloodthirsty and dark deal is too slow for emergency healing.
As we have no survivability tools, it is at best problematic. Maybe I could've slotted bone shield (but stamina was already an issue), or used barrier or absorption negate morph.

The big problem I had with surge is that there was no way to recover from multiple big hits (ie getting 2 hits in a second). We have no emergency survivability skills or means to get some breathing space (maybe streak would've helped but you can rarely hit all the scattered clones) to allow critical surge to actually do its healing. Live surge was at least immediate in the heals and one big heal could keep you alive... Pts not so much.

Simple Answer: Burst him Down Faster. Should be possible to kill him with only 2 Adds, maybe even faster.

Have you tried it on the PTS to say that? Sorcerer kit has been gutted in many ways and the need to invest more skill slots to abilities that can heal you + having to spend more time healing your self, all affect your DPS, lowering it considerably. There is a reason experienced players that are in the leaderboard are having issues going through content they can do pretty well in Live...

That may be true for the Magika Sorc, but this is a Thread for the Stam Sorc, and the Stam Sorc, at least the way i played the first Boss, should have it more easy to Survive now.
For you to be happy, i gonna log in today, gonna make my stam sorc template and play the first arenas im vmsa with it.
I'll try to record it and post it for you, happy?

I will gladly watch what you post, if you post it. I am sure it will make for an interesting analyses, you managing to complete the fight or not. Please record how many times you die before finally succeeding though as that too is important data for analyses.

Ok, my Potato of an PC was unable to record a Video and still let me play Eso with a acceptable fps count, so no Video.

My personal Feedback for Surge: its a good healit allows me to focus on DPS, a bit like on a MagBlade.
BUT i still had Vigor on my main Bar for the "OH ***" Moments, and for the 2nd Arena, i cant play the Second Arena without Vigor because i suck hard there.
But thats beside the Point.
I used Vigor most times when i was in a bad spot, with multiple Mobs hitting me at the same time, i usuallyused vigor+ dodge.

YET i was able to focus much more on DPS then i do on my Nightblade on Live, as i am not Forced to press Vifor all 4 seconds to stay alive.

I was able to kill the first Boss, as he spawned his 3rd Wave of Adds, so first wave with a caster.
And i used vigor only once or twice.

So in conlusion, Surge is a nice HoT, and it keeps me alive, if i just dodge the hard bursting Damage.
Surge in its current Version is not capable of beeing the only Heal necessary for MSA; but its a REALY nice addition.
Until Arena 6, the most times i had to use Vigor was because of my stupidity to dodge Mechanics like the Razors in Arena 2, or heavy hits from mobs.

I can not tell, because after arena 6 i was too lazy to continue, mayby feedback for that later.

My Skills were:
Bar 1: DW: Hurricane, Streak, Bound Armaments, Rapid Strikes, Vigor; Flawless Dawnbreaker.
Bar 2: Bow: Dark Deal, Endless Hail, Razor Caltrops, Bound Armaments, Surge, Absorption Field.
My Feedback to Dark Deal in the MSA: Its cool to use BETWEEN the rounds, in rounds its usless. I used it successfully once inside a round. And i felt like a God of Luck that no one Attacked me during the cast time.

Absorption Field: a Realy Nice skill, i used it only 3 times, but whenever i used it, it realy paid off, and made the whole fight realy easy.
Tested once stage one, 1.st Mini boss
Healed off of Caster and Stam Sorc Stage 3
Killed Nereide that spawned because i was careless with Hail+Absorption Field.

I hope you enjoyed reading this

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Storm Calling

• Hurricane (Lightning Form morph): Updated the visual effects for this morph based on your feedback.
• Surge: This ability and its morphs will now critically heal based on your Weapon Critical or Spell Critical, whichever is higher. We also fixed an issue where the heal from this ability and its morphs was not being reduced by Battle Spirit.

Note that most of the replies in this poll happened BEFORE we were sure that Crit surge was going to be further reduced by battle spirit. Please also note that a majority of us feel that the issues affecting stamina sorcerer go so far beyond crit surge, and dislike that the assumption that stam sorc can be fixed or improved solely by tweaking this ability.

PTS testing Patch 2.4.3: Critical Surge in PvP (with battle spirit nerf) Character has 27 points into blessed (10% healing given) and 46 Points into quick recovery (10% healing taken)

Even though Crit Surge doesn't heal for the entirety of the damage done, there still appears to be a cooldown.



What is the point of allowing DOTs to proc Crit surge if the cooldown still eats all the heals?!?!?!?!

The cooldown put in place only because of DOTs, now that the ability doesn't heal big on big hits, we still have a cooldown? That is the worst of both worlds.




Edit: Updates from Patch 2.4.2


Dark Magic

• Dark Exchange: Increased the amount of health restored from this ability and its morphs by 100%.

Storm Calling

• Disintegrate: Renamed this passive ability to Implosion. This passive ability now also grants all Physical Damage you deal a chance to instantly pulverize low health enemies, dealing additional Physical Damage to them. Updated this passive’s tooltip to indicate what the health threshold is for it to trigger.
• Energized: This passive ability now also increases your Physical Damage done in addition to the Shock Damage done.
• Hurricane (Lightning Form morph): This morph now also grants the Minor Expedition buff at all times while it is active.
• Surge: This ability and its morphs now restore a flat value of health whenever you deal a Critical Strike. It will now also proc on any Critical Strike instead of only direct damage Critical Strikes, but can only restore health once every second.

Discussion of new changes in this thread starts HERE
I will continue to update the Issues and Solutions sections (posts #2 and #3) when the feedback gets a chance to settle a bit.




Wrobel In your "Dark Brotherhood Combat Changes" thread you said the most helpful feedback is supported by "specific details, math, and logic." This is my attempt to achieve some sort of "meeting of the minds" between the Development team and the Stamina Sorc Community.

To everyone else that likes playing stam sorc, you can help by adding links to all your previous suggestions here so we can all have them in one place. I will update this initial post once people start contributing. Let's keep this thread focused on Stamina Sorcs and keep the Hurricane memes at bay. We have a lot of work to do so let's get started.


PART ONE: Sorcerer Stamina Builds vs the stamina builds of other classes: Why Sorcerer doesn't match up.

Here are the four criteria that make certain classes have strong stamina builds in ESO and why the proposed changes to stamina sorcerer are not yet enough to be considered a serious endgame stamina build for PvE or PvP.

A stamina build, by definition uses stamina based skills (primarily) for DPS and magicka skills (primarily) for utility. The classes that have the strongest stamina builds have at least one CLASS SKILL (or passive) in each of the following categories:

1. An instant cast, CLASS BASED ability that scales of stamina and does PHYSICAL damage.
2. A magika based class utility ability that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
3. A class based passive that directly supports stamina by returning stamina, increasing stamina regen, weapon damage/crit, or mobility.
4. An class ability that reduces the enemies physical resistance

If you look at what the other classes have in these four categories, you can see why the Sorcerers fall so short in stamina performance and why the proposed changes (i.e. Hurricane) not only do very little to bridge the gap but actually decrease Stam Sorc utility (lighting form).

Templar Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage: Biting Jabs/ Stam Javelin
2. Stam Support Utility: Repentance (free)
3. Passives that support stamina: Balanced warrior
4. Armor Debuff: Power of the light

Dragonknight Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Direct Damage:Burning Breath, Unstable Flame, Dragon Leap (Ultimate)
2. Stam Support Utility:Green Dragon Blood, Flames of Oblivion, igneous weapons
3. Passives that support stamina:Battle Roar, Mountain's Blessing, Helping Hands
4. Armor Debuff:Burning Breath, Corrosive Armor

Nightblade Class Skills and Passives that Support Stamina
1. Killer's Blade, Ambush, power extraction, Surprise attack, and now Incapacitating Strike (ultimate)
2. Stam Support Utility: Relentless Focus, siphoning attacks, power extractions, double take
3. Passives that support stamina:Master Assassin, pressure points, hemorrhage, refreshing shadows(30% stam regen with no need to slot anything)
4. Armor Debuff:Mark Target, Surprise attack

Looking at this list it is immediately clear which classes have the strongest stamina build and why. Now lets apply these four criteria to sorcerer:

Sorcerer (Current)
1. Direct Damage Class Based Stamina Skill: NOTHING except Hurricane, which is a huge Utility Loss (see below)
2. Stam Support Utility: Nothing that returns stamina. Bound Armaments (takes two slots for 8% max stamina and paltry armor), Dark Deal (very hard to use in combat), Boundless Storm (mobility utility), Critical Surge
3. Passives that support stamina: unholy knowledge (5% stam cost reduction), Expert Mage - Increase spell/weapon damage 2% per sorc ability (Now outshadowed by 3% fighters guild passive) Daedric Protection (20% health and stam recovery but ONLY when Daedric summoning ability is slotted)
4. Armor Debuff: NOTHING

Calling ZOS_GinaBruno to try to get some Developer attention to this thread. ZOS_RichLambert We could really use a /lurk on this. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

Also calling the rest of the stam sorc community to help me link all the previous suggestions we have posted all over the net. Try to keep this thread positive, on track, and not to argue among ourselves and keep this discussion civil and factual. Ajax_22 Erock25 PainfulFAFA Emma_Eunjung FENGRUSH Dyride ahzek Jar_Ek Dracane mistermutiny89 Huggalump Spearblade Tyrannitar Please link anyone else I missed.

Edit 1: Thank you everyone for contributing. Click HERE to view Eric Wrobel's Response to this thread. Thanks to the developers for reading and responding.

Refreshing Shadows was nerfed hard now it's 15% recovery to all three. Magic don't need help with recovery they never did, health recovery is a pointless and that stamima 30% has been their for 2 years. Also 15% cheaper ultimate and stamina and magic cost reductions for sloting nothing we all have a passives that's bad ass with no need to slot a power don't ignore yours cause you in the mine.

You know sloting your ultimate which counts grants that buff right? Your mad cause the Battle Spirt debuff which hurt every other PvP heal yes please be mad that a debuff that counts of everyone else hits your heals.

You need the make you case for you class based solely on your class you can't get the burst of Nightblades, heals of Templars or the undying Tanky tank power of Dragon Knights. Trying trying to throw other classes under the bus is only going to cause rage with the other classes.

Its been that way for a while now, and the passive started out as 10% stam regen for a short duration after casting a shadow skill, so its still much stronger than before. And need I bring up the sorcerer passive capacitor (10% magicka regen only) or dk's elder dragon (5% health regen per dragonic power skill slotted, thus needing 3 on each bar to match this passive)? That passive is, in its current form, very powerful, and I would suggest not using it as an example of a 'weak nb passive'.

Never called it weak it's good at best mages don't ask for a recovery buff and stamina don't get much more recovery with low magic regen same with Mages for stamina and no one cares about the health part so.

Templars:
Balanced Warrior
Prism
Restoring Spirit
Master Ritualist

Dragon Knights:
Kindling
World of Flames
Iron Skin
Scaled Armor
Battle Roar

Nightblades:
Refreshing Shadows
Catalyst

Sorcerers:
Power Stone
Unholy Knowledge
Capacitor
Disintegrate

Are all the passives that don't need a class power to get all are useful so let's not play the but the other classes card on passives. You can work a Stamina Sorcerer more support is needed yes but stop trying to nerf every one else.

Cause we all know calling a power/passives op enough will get it nerfed into the ground.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Didn't watch the ESO live. was anything of value said on this topic?

XaXa

Don't expect class skill changes on Mondays incremental.

Surge heal is going to have its numbers possibly raised before the DLC drops.

Shield changes are here to stay.

Ajax_22

@Yolokin_Swagonborn the only thing Wrobel really said was that he is happy with the way PTS Surge functions, and thinks it will be more useful for Sorc tanks, but the numbers for the heal may get a slight tweak. He likes the fact that not every class passive is useful for Stam Sorcs. He didn't say anything that would indicate us getting any more skill or passive updates, other than Surge, for the rest of the PTS.

Jar_Ek

@luxfreak Doh I completely forgot about vigour. That might have helped - I was trying to use dark deal instead which really wasn't any use. I probably would have been fine with vigour as an emergency heal

Grao

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@luxfreak Doh I completely forgot about vigour. That might have helped - I was trying to use dark deal instead which really wasn't any use. I probably would have been fine with vigour as an emergency heal

But you know @Wrobel really wants you to use Useless Exchange. It is one of the reasons he nerfed Surge so heavily, to force us to play test that skill...