Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell
MaxwellCrystal wrote: »I've got a problem with the DK stam support all of those are completely wrong....I will say yeah stam sorcs need a stamina based class skill I do agree with you on that. I'm not sure what they can use though as I don't even play the class.
I agree that stam sorcs need some more love and Hurricane not giving Major Expedition is a big nerf.
However, what I find to be the biggest problem of stamina sorcs is none of what you listed. It's the lack of a good CC.
Previously you had Wrecking Blow as kind of a CC & spammable DPS skill - well, you can still Wrecking Blow for damage (or use the new Flurry), but where are you going to get the CC from?
Also, you left out a pretty big one from your sorc passives list:
Daedric Protection
Increases your Health and Stamina recovery by 20% when a Daedric Summoning ability is slotted.
Anyway, back on topic: I'd add a CC portion to the Hurricane skill (maybe a knockback/knockdown after full duration or upon activation) & that alone goes a long way to fixing stamina sorc issues.
I don't think stamina sorcerers need a spammable dps skill, there's a reason DW & 2H skills exist.
I sent in a suggestion a while back on a stamina spammable DPS ability for the stam sorc. It was...I think, 30% less damage than NB's stamina spammable stam ability, but if it crit it'd switch to an ability that had a 100% crit chance, would apply a debuff or something and do a little more damage (base damage reduced for the procced ability, the 100% crit mainly for healing via crit surge, but the extra damage from crit would make it do somewhat more damage than the 'base' ability). And it would've replaced the less-used version of that crystal throwing ability. The gist of it was that instead of throwing the crystal, the stam sorc would make a punching glove out of it and then hit someone. Think Grim Focus, except on crit instead of on 10 light attacks.
Maybe the crit crystal fist could explode for AoE damage or apply the armor debuff. Or do shock damage and call it lightning punch. (:O so that it could possibly have synergy with the below suggestion?!).
I also suggested Disintegrate receive a massive damage nerf, but a pretty hefty proc % increase. I've always thought that a 6% (or whatever it is now, I think it's still ridiculously low) chance to instantly kill someone was stupid. IIRC the proc chance was 20 or 30%, but the damage was 1000-2000. There was some math I did such that the DPS of the 30% version was the same as the 6% version, but I have forgotten and I'm not doing it again.
*tosses in 2c*
Emma_Eunjung wrote: »I understand why people want a Stamina Frags, and I would enjoy it for sure, but... I would rather have a Stamina version of Velocious Curse. When I look at the logs of my PvP skirmishes, Velocious Curse seems like it delivers the "killing blow" more often than Frags or Fury, which kind of surprises me. I think the reason Curse works so well is that most players simply don't see it coming and don't how to purge it or anticipate the damage. These same guys have been trained to look for Frags procs, so they're already dodging while it's flying through the air.
Sudden influx of stam sorcs? Lol hardly. This is like the 5th thread on the topic because the stam sorc minority has been neglected for far too long.Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Despite me agreeing with the general message that Stamsorcs need love, I just disagree with the analysis and solutions most of you provide. I play Stamsorc since eternities.
Stamsorc does NOT need a spammable direct dmg skill that just replaces wpn abilities for the sake of replacing them. This game doesnt need ANY more spammable damage abilities. This game doesn`t need another surprise attack.
Stamsorc is NOT reliant on Wrecking Blow and never was.
Stamsorc is NOT reliant on any morph of Boundless Storm.
Those opinions of mine are based on playing a Stamsorc for a long time solo in PvP.
I assume the sudden influx of Stamsorc demands now stems from the fact that a lot of Magsorcs are desperately looking into alternatives since they are afraid of losing their easymode and are in hope that they can somehow replace that with a pimped Stamsorc setup (DB stam update yadda yadda).
I don`t want ZOS catering to that kind of audience. That kind of biased balancing demands is what brought us the overtuned meta we have.
If Stamsorcs get another boost, I sincerely hope it will be a subtle one, more focusing on passives supporting our playstyle.
Solutions.
...
Stamina sorcs were very reliant on wrecking blow for the CC effect and the empower now we have to choose taking up two slots which is complicated because BA is a toggle. Need a stamina based class specific hard (4.5 sec CC) or a class specific skill that give minor berserk to make up empower or cc loss.
....
Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Despite me agreeing with the general message that Stamsorcs need love, I just disagree with the analysis and solutions most of you provide. I play Stamsorc since eternities.
Stamsorc does NOT need a spammable direct dmg skill that just replaces wpn abilities for the sake of replacing them. This game doesnt need ANY more spammable damage abilities. This game doesn`t need another surprise attack.
Stamsorc is NOT reliant on Wrecking Blow and never was.
Stamsorc is NOT reliant on any morph of Boundless Storm.
Those opinions of mine are based on playing a Stamsorc for a long time solo in PvP.
I assume the sudden influx of Stamsorc demands now stem from the fact that a lot of Magsorcs are desperately looking into alternatives since they are afraid of losing their easymode and are in hope that they can somehow replace that with a pimped Stamsorc setup (DB stam update yadda yadda).
I don`t want ZOS catering to that kind of audience. That kind of biased balancing demands is what brought us the overtuned meta we have.
If Stamsorcs get another boost, I sincerely hope it will be a subtle one, more focusing on passives supporting our playstyle.
Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Dude, cant you even quote correctly? You forgot to bold one word that gives my message another context and leaves your reply void... come on. Kindergarden level now?
PainfulFAFA wrote: »Oh man, idk where to begin.
Stam sorcs have been on life support for too long, i think this will be the patch that i finally quit it.
TL;DR: Ineffective Abilities (Crystal Blast, Overload, Thundering Prescence/Hurricane), Lack of Passives, Passives dont make sense, My 5 Solutions.
Ineffecitve Abilties
Thundering presence was not viable for PvP because it had a short duration that constantly needed to be refreshed, and the damage was weak (because Shock damage). In short, the only thing thundering presence did was drain stamina. Its not even viable for tanking for the very same reason.Essentially, too much stam used, nothing viable in return. Boundless storm is obviously a better choice.
Overload's 3rd bar is a nice tool to have but the only abilities we can use is Sorc, Guild, Undaunted, or Alliance skills. Its hard to concieve a viable build as a stamina sorc in which Overload does DECENT damage that synergizes well with those skill lines. Another problem i have with Overload is the animation upon activation. It has a delay when switching to your 3rd bar and it takes GREAT SKILL to master the art of Overload bar- swapping in the middle of a fight (even during lag). Sometimes itll work, other times its a nightmare shuffling thru 3 bars trying to get to the right one. Overload also needs to have some sort of Physical damage/penetration into it.
Crit surge is a great ability for PvE, but ONLY for PvE. Why? Because none of the monsters in PvE is wearing 7/7 Impen and all CP into Crit Resistance. Oh and IF you do get a nice crit on somebody, the heals will automatically be cut in half thanks to Battle Spirit. Again, Crit Surge heals is NEVER viable in PvP. The burst meta is at its peak with 20k wrecking blows, 20k jesus beams, 13k prox dets, 408k gap closers, and snare/roots to be depending on 1k heals every now and then.
Crystal blast. Oh boy. I never though this ability would make it this far in the game. 1 second cast time for a rock that will do <50% of the damage (dont forget Battle Spirit lul)? This ability needs to be scrapped. Nothing else to be said of this ability because it doesnt do much lol.
Lack of Passives
My other issue with Stam sorc is the lack of passives that work with them. As far as i know there are only 3 passives that impact Stamina sorcs.
-Unholy Knowledge (reduce stam cost 5%)
-Daedric Protection (20% stam rege, requires ability slot)
-Expert mage (2% wpn dmg per ability slotted)
3 passives.... OUT OF 12. Thats why stam sorcs are at the bottom. Theres nothing that supports them. They look nice and cool because they are speedy but speed isnt going to heal you, sustain you, or dps for you. There are just too many WASTED passives and morphs.
I honestly think the devs had no intention/did not expect for stamina sorcs to be a thing. Just think about the class theme.
Shock, Pets, Magic.
Passives are all over the place and some of them dont make sense...
- Like 5% extra shock damage? But then they make Hurricane do Physical damage?
-6% Disintegrate procs ONLY on low health and with shock damage. Not too many shock options available and they all scale off of magicka and my CP wont work. Shock damage enchants would work but that would mean no vMA, disease, weapon power, or other useful options that would help me get the enemy down to low health in the first place..
- Restores 1k magicka when a pet is unsummoned/killed? First off all it only works with pets. Secopnd, i need to summon the pet in the first place. Thirdly, i will need 2 bar slots. LOL no.
- Using dark mage ability gives minor spell crit. Hmm.....
- An entire passive dedicated to simple pet buffs. Things like movement, twilight dmg, atro range. Wish i got those bonuses, not my pets.
-2% dmg per ability slotted, when fighters guild passive grants 3% per slotted....
- Doing damage with Dark Magic ability heals for 8% health.... as far as i know Crystal Frag, Mines, and Shattering Prison are the only things that do damage (magic dmg). The new Negate MIGHT work, but meh. Its just meh.
-Capacitor's increase Magicka Recovery. They could add some sort of ultimate regen, reduce cost of blocking, reduce cost of roll dodge, or applying a buff/debuff everytime you are hit (afterall, a capacitor stores energy, so we use that energy for something right?) instead of just a % increase only to a certain playstyle.
My Solutions:
1) Disintegrate is a GREAT passive but it ONLY works with shock damage. They need to find a way to incorporate Disintegrate without it depending so much on shock damage. Call it something else if you have to. Make it proc on Stormcall abilties only or make it dependent on Streaking. Maybe give us other options to cause shock damage.
2) Pets. I know the whole idea is for Sorc to be able to fight with their summoned companions but why cant 1 of the companions be a Dremora? With a 2H? Or a bow? What if stam sorcs had the ability to conjure up weapons that fight next to them? Two of the Sorc's passives are dedicated to their pets for crying out loud. Pets have better support than stam sorcs imo.
3) Remove Crystal blast. Just remove it plz. Nothing else to be said other than a Crystal FIST sounds super cool. Or maybe a crystal arrow?
4) Passives. 3 out of 12 passives that stam sorcs benefit from. That is why they are at the bottom. Passives like Expert Summoner, Persistance, Rebate, Capacitor, Energized, can be used to provide more options like conjure a sword strike for every pet unsummon/kill, or drain enemy stamina for using a Dark magic ability. These passives are just robbing away from what a stam sorc could be.
5) Overload. Overload's bar-swapping animation needs to be a little smoother to allow rapid bar swapping. That way we can weave in a couple of overloads without looking like clowns and getting bar jammed.
These solutions i provide arent going to fix them 100%. They are simple steps to help stam sorcs based on my experiences. Like i said before, Hurricane will NOT make stam sorcs anymore viable than what it is. If they leave stam sorcs as is, they will be the most under performing class in the game once it goes live due to changes in other skill lines.
Edit: And to the people arguing that sorcerers are beings that use magic.... lol
Why are DK's doing poison damage if theyre supposed to be fire based knight?
If templars are supposed to be healers, why do they get stamina options?
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »MaxwellCrystal wrote: »I've got a problem with the DK stam support all of those are completely wrong....I will say yeah stam sorcs need a stamina based class skill I do agree with you on that. I'm not sure what they can use though as I don't even play the class.
Stamina DK's are very strong on the PTS. Perhaps they are strong for reasons other than the ones I mentioned. If you feel that stam DKs need a buff, start a thread about it. Lets keep this thread about Stam sorcs.
Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »MaxwellCrystal wrote: »I've got a problem with the DK stam support all of those are completely wrong....I will say yeah stam sorcs need a stamina based class skill I do agree with you on that. I'm not sure what they can use though as I don't even play the class.
Stamina DK's are very strong on the PTS. Perhaps they are strong for reasons other than the ones I mentioned. If you feel that stam DKs need a buff, start a thread about it. Lets keep this thread about Stam sorcs.
Stamina DKs generally don't use a whole lot of class abilities... In fact you can probably get away with the Stamina DK setup on PTS with just about any Class..including Sorc.
I guess the longer you say something, it starts to get believed ... but stamsorcs are far from garbage and not the worst stam class (whatever that means). I am not saying they are on par with stamblades or that they have the defensive capabilities of stamDKs, but they're not garbage.
Sorcs have one of the best skills in the game - Crit Surge. They also have great mobility, a good stun, a third ability bar and as good, if not better, passives that Templars. Unholy Knowledge reduces stam costs by 5%, Power Stone - huge reduction in ulti costs (nice if you werewolf), Daedric Protection - health and stam recovery +20% (use Bound Armaments and you have that plus 5% more stam plus 11% more heavy attack damage plus 2% weapon damage - worth it even if it means using two slots), Expert Mage - 2% inc to weapon damage for each sorc ability slotted.
I like the Hurricane change. It will increase DPS, but I do think they should change the Disintegrate passive to include physical damage (tho that might be super potent, but they could adjust the proc percentage). Having Unstable Clanfear's damage stamina-based (it's already physical) would make things interesting and make a couple of those DS passives useful. Those two changes alone would do a lot.
I also think stam sorcs will benefit from the changes to dual wield (flurry), though I haven't seen any tests on this yet.